So my brother is going to become a priest
Offline I'm more a lurker than a poster, but I need to vent and my wife is getting tired of hearing it so here goes...
My brother and I were raised in a Roman Catholic home and we both went to Catholic schools (I went k-8 and he went k-12). I wouldn't call my parents hardcore xtians, but we went to church every sunday, prayed before meals, etc.
For as long as I can remember I was very confused about god and religion. I thought that the bible stories we read in elementary were kind of goofy but I learned early on that my teachers didn't want to hear any commentary about the faith other "I love Jesus" so I kept most of those thoughts and feelings to myself. I always felt that there was something wrong with me and I went through several phases of devoutness in my life to try and silence the doubts that I had.
Once I was in high school I started to read more and broaden my worldview. This continued throughout college and once I was out on my own I quit going to church and spent several years trying to figure out what I believed. I'm now 32 and for the first time in my life at feel at peace with myself. I'm an atheist and I'm no longer afraid to admit it to myself, nor do I feel like there is something wrong with me anymore.
As if to balance itself out the universe seems to have done its best to turn my brother into a fundy nut job. He's 3 years younger than I am and we haven't been close for the past 5-6 years. He is very intelligent but he's never had any social skills to speak of and always put a lot of pressure on himself to be "perfect". It caught up with him in 2002-2003 when he suffered a nervous breakdown while in college. I wasn't around much since I was living on my own, but from what I've pieced together things were pretty bad. He was living with my parents and commuting at the time, so they had a front row seat. He basically stayed in bed for 6-7 weeks, coming downstairs only to eat. He flunked all of his classes that quarter (this from the guy that always had to have an A) and just lost interest in everything.
My parents finally convinced him to seek help and his family doctor referred him to a shrink. He was put on anti-depressants and medicine to control panic attacks. He was also referred to counseling. The pills gave his personality a complete 180 change-he went from a quiet, mousy kind of guy to a non-stop talker. My parents freaked out and started to question whether or not the medicine was helping. Things got better as the shrink pinpointed the dosage that my brother needed, but I think that their initial reaction sewed the seeds of an idea that my brother didn't really need to be seeing a counselor.
I became aware of all of this after my brother was on medication. I was a little taken aback by his "new" personality, but my wife, whom I was dating at the time, is on ant-depressants and she helped walk me through some of the things that my brother was going through. I encouraged him to continue counseling and working to change his life.
He completed college soon after but he quit counseling. I've tried to find out why, but he never gives me a straight answer and ignores any suggestion that he should consider going back. As best I can tell his counselor was asking him to face some tough truths about himself and his illness and he was too afraid/uncomfortable to do it. I've tried to get my parents to push him to go back, but I think that they also think that it's unnecessary.
My brother still lives at home and is working a dead end job. A couple of years ago I noticed that his room was full of Jesus and Mary statues and that he had a purchased an ornate bible. I was still working through my own issues about religion so I didn't ask him about even though it made me uncomfortable. Since then he has gone completely bat-shit crazy for Jesus. Everything in the bible is true, it was written by god, the Pope and the Catholic church are infallible, etc, etc. He started talking about leading a religious life last Xmas, and was very interested in joining a monastery in PA. I've tried to tell him to REALLY think about this, but now it's too late. Things have progressed to the point that he is now considering the priesthood and has contacted a local priest to be a spiritual advisor.
He just dropped this latest bombshell on me last Sunday at his birthday party. He's 29, has never had a girlfriend, has never lived apart from my parents, and has probably never even had sex. (I haven't asked.) Of course my uncle, grandmother, and parents are all very supportive about this. Especially my uncle. He spent time in a seminary himself, although he left before becoming a priest. It's like he sees a chance to redeem his "failure" by encouraging my brother. I'm not so sure about my parents-maybe they just want to get him out of the house.
Anyway, I feel like a failure for not being there to offer some kind of advice. My wife says that I just have to be happy for him if he's happy, whether I agree with his decisions or not. She might be right, but he's my brother, damn it. I don't want to see him throw away his life on a book of lies and bullshit. I know that the main reason he's doing this is because he's afraid to face reality and really work on his depression and panic issues. I'm sure that he sees the church as a place that will accept him without forcing him to change, which is probably very enticing. On top of that he would gain instant respect in some circles by studying for the priesthood. Respect is something he doesn't get a lot of in his current situation, so that's tempting too.
In any case, if you've read this far, thanks. Sorry that it was so long. Like I said, I just wanted to blow off some steam.
I dare do all that may become a man-Who dares more is none
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Some of this sounds like he could maybe be gay? Do yuo know if that's possible? I know the church at least used to encourage gay men to become priests.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
For your brother. Be kind.
I CAME TO ATHEISM BY ACCIDENT, AND I DECIDED TO STAY
By Rook Hawkins
http://www.rationalresponders.com/i_came_to_atheism_by_accident_and_i_decided_to_stay
ALAN WATTS , "LEAVING THE CHURCH",
http://groups.msn.com/TheContinuanceofAlanWattsPhilosophy/awonleavingthechurch.msnw
Atheism Books.
I've asked him if he's gay. I tried to let him know that if he his that would be OK (It wouldn't bother me, but I know that my parents would not approve). At the time he told me that he was not gay, that he was attracted to women, but that he didn't know how to go about asking a girl out or what to do on a date, etc.
It's possible that he lied to me, but I have to admit that I have a hard time seeing him on a date. I mean, he has no friends that I know of, and is very withdrawn in social situations. So I don't know. In his current state of fundyism I'm sure he wouldn't admit to anyone that he was gay.
I dare do all that may become a man-Who dares more is none
If what he's saying is true, and from other things you posted, he could have aspergers like me. I've never been on a date but it's not my choice and I'm only attracted by women.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
What exactly did you find in the OP to suggest that his brother is gay?
D20DM, I'm with IAGAY on this one. Be kind and patient with your brother. As someone with two brothers I know what my reaction would be if I felt one of them was "telling" me what to do with my life. I think the best you can do is talk to him, raise your concerns, and, regardless of the outcome, let him know that you'll always be there to support him (if not his decision).
M
Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss
That's awful man. I think you should try and reason him out of it, but gently, talk to him, make friends with him even and get into a position where he can trust you. Life is clearly very hard for him and I can absolutely understand how he's come to this situation. Be nice, but also engage with him on an intellectual level where possible.
Atheist Books
Studying to be a priest these days is not what it used to be and there is a fair emphasis applied to teasing out in indviduals their sense of vocation from any other impulses that might have led them to the seminary. I grew up in a seminary town in Ireland (about as reactionary and conservative in its catholicism as you could find anywhere at the time) and even then the realisation was sinking in that maladjusted people did not make for good priests. Since then the evidence that this is so tragically true has been highly publicised and last I heard the seminaries - what's left of them - are even more stringent than ever. Your brother will be subjected to constant evaluation in this regard if he "signs up" and from how you describe him sounds like a perfect candidate for being told to "go off and think about it a little more". Maybe not immediately, but especially in the lead-up to taking his vows.
For the moment I would not try to dissuade him, though I would not be shy in advertising that I was 180 degrees from his religious views (it never hurts to let religious people know that their assumption of correctness is just that). He sounds like he's heading for another trauma, and he'll need you when it happens more than he needs all the eejits egging him on in what seems like a really really bad life choice. Let him know that whenever it happens he has you to fall back on. At this stage it seems to be something that he has to work his own way through which sounds like it's already an improvement on where he was a while back. You, we and every dog in the street probably know what's going to happen, but he doesn't. He'll need you as a pal when it does. Sounds like he doesn't have too many of those, so it's important you deliver when it comes around.
And it will.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
i have a half-brother and half-sister (i don't think of them as "halfs" but they have a different father), both with ADD. my brother in particular is a recovering (i hope) drug addict who left rehab early and now only sees an addictionologist. their father is filthy rich but also a needy nutjob who keeps my brother at home and in a dead-end job washing cars in one of his dealerships, always telling him he'll move up to sales and eventually take over the business but never delivering. my brother has bottled everything up his whole life and never tells anybody anything's wrong until there's a crisis (like fucking up the car while he's high on smack). my mom loves him dearly, as do i and my sister, and he's always had everybody telling him he needs to get out of his dad's house and start real life. he's 20 and has enrolled and then backed out of college 3 times, before ever taking a class. talk to him about it, and he "yes's" and "i know's" you to death and then changes nothing.
point is, some people you just can't get through to. they either have to make their own way or not make their own way. it's hard not to try and rush in and save the day every time there's a new development, but if you keep taking even a microbe of responsibility, you'll drive yourself batshit. love him, help him when he asks for it and when you can, and let him go. seriously.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
"cloud hidden, whereabouts unknown"! ah, avalokitesvara, it's good to hear somebody else say the name of alan watts. too few people know about him these days. him and christmas humphreys and good old thomas merton (it's not always bad to be a monk--merton proves this).
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Yeah iwbiek, teacher mentor wild man late Allan Watts. I do mention him quite a lot here. He is often much easier to "listen" to than read. He's in you tube etc. Some way cool vids, and some just so so. Shit, and why isn't he often on the FCC TV, being the healer uniter he is? (eat the rich) Thanks for the other names ... I will check them out.
Atheism Books.
I have a family member with mental illness as well, so I sincerely sympathize with you. But I agree with your wife, if the priesthood or his religion is what gives him happiness, community, a framework to orient his life away from despair and depression, than let it be.
Facing reality in a world of unbelief is not the ultimate, facing reality doesn't necessarily offer us a solution, in fact it may be just for some a dilemma--the source of what depresses us. If your brother has been depressed all these years of his life, and finally this religious pursuit of his, gives him a sense of fulfillment and happiness, he's not wasting his life by pursuing it, if happiness is what he achieves by it.
Reality has no desire to solve your brothers problems, of getting him to deal with it, reality may just be what beckons him to stay in bed for weeks at a time. Just because you have a distaste for religion, doesn't mean you should impose this on your brother, it might even be selfish of you to do so.
If my own sister found a sense of happiness and fulfillment by joining a UFO club, that saved her from own serous bouts of depression, I'd be overwhelmingly happy
"I'm really an idiot! I have my own head way the fuck up my ass! Watch me dig myself into a hole over and over again!" ~Rook Hawkins (just citing sources)
Proirity one is getting / keeing keeping your brother "safe". If the joining the seminary does that then it is better than being unsafe and outside the seminary.
Second point, you love your brother, I would guess probably unconditionality, it is one of the things that binds society, he needs to know that, just because we don't believe in the same things, it should not mean that we stop loving each other. I can love you, but I don't have to love your god.
I have seen people go through the seminary, to come out of the end of it as atheist as I, it sets up challanges for the participants and maes them think what their faith is really about, so it could be the path to enlightenment for your brother, provided that he is safe.
The key thing is your brothers safety
In God I trust, all others bring data
BTW God, I think your excemption expired
Thanks you last 2 posters. Diving seriously into any religion can be revealing. I would simply, lovingly remind your brother to also look at all major religions, especially the eastern ideas and their appreciation of your brothers favorite mentor, jesus. Heck, much of the east consider jesus as an atheist buddha like thinker of an ancient jewish sect.
Atheism Books.
Well, this is comforting news. I just assumed that since the church is so hard up for priests that would they wouldn't turn anyone down. I doubt that he has the social skills to be a "good" priest. I can't see him counseling engaged couples, for example. Perhaps it would be best to let this run it's course. He knows I think it's a bad idea, but I don't have enough sway with him to get him thinking. If the seminary told him he wasn't a bad fit he'd have no choice but to take a hard look at his life.
I dare do all that may become a man-Who dares more is none
well, i don't know the situation in ireland or the states, but here in slovakia that's definitely not the case. there are hordes of guys studying for the priesthood. all sorts of reasons: of course, most will tell you it's a calling from god and most believe that on the conscious level but, from the many priests and seminary students i've met here, i can say it boils down to many reasons. one, and this is probably the biggest one, some sort of power trip. priests and preachers tend to be people who get off on manipulating people. two, genuine, good-natured, aw-shucks piety. this one is rare but it happens, especially among guys who are naive and empathetic. these are usually genuinely good guys, just a little childish. three, and a very prevalent one, material reasons. priests in this country never have to worry about dick as long as they play it safe politically. they're accountable to their bishop, not to their parishioners. they live in church-provided houses which are often pretty big and well-appointed (i know the priest's house in this village certainly is). they get a tidy stipend. they have no end of old church ladies willing to keep house, cook, and garden for them (the fat fucker in this village never lifts a finger). their duties consist in drinking wine and chanting the liturgy, which i've seen a priest do obviously drunk before. here in slovakia, if a priest has to travel to several villages to hold mass, the drunk-driving laws virtually don't apply to him. the only possible downside is celibacy, but believe me, it's not hard for a priest to get around that, and very many do. and, if they're so-called greek catholic (i.e., mostly eastern orthodox rites but under papal authority), they can get married as long as they do it before they're ordained. in fact, girls tend to prowl the greek catholic seminary in presov because they know those guys will want to settle down quick and when they do, they'll have a good-paying, low-stress job. i've actually had seminary students tell me they want to become a priest because "it's a good job."
it's all about politics. the church mostly seems to accept those who are competent, willing to tow whatever bullshit line the church says, and, most importantly, willing to turn a blind eye to a potential scandal in return for the same favor. in other words, utter shitbags.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Here in the states the church is having a very hard time attracting men to the priesthood. Quite a few small parishes have merged together. Some small churches that have not closed share 1 "traveling" priest that rotates between churches. Even large churches are making do with fewer priests than they had a decade ago.
Hopefully this shortage won't cause the local diocese to push my brother through if he does decide to go to the seminary.
I want to thank everyone that's responded so far. I love my brother and I want what is best for him. It's just hard to be happy for him when he's leaning towards something that is so diametrically opposed to my own view of the world.
I dare do all that may become a man-Who dares more is none
i would like to believe that shows america is becoming more enlightened. but i think it just shows that the catholic-hating protestant fundies are gaining ground.
actually that's pretty common, even here in slovakia. though i believe you when you say there's a downturn.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
It shows neither. It does accurately reflect a social change over the last several decades whereby individuals are less inclined to value or act on the concept of vocation in the same terms as they once did.
It also reflects an even more recent implementation of policies within the catholic church, imposed from the top, designed to ensure that potential future liabilities should be avoided. A more indiscriminate recruitment policy in the past has ended up costing the church dearly in terms of money and credibility. Stricter guidelines regarding recruitment are a reaction to this, and are being enforced in all areas where shrinking credibility is causing real concern.
When it comes to which christian sect is "gaining ground" at the others' expense I would be inclined to take the long view. The catholic church is never to be underestimated when it comes to its own survival and employing tactics to guarantee that survival. Of all the christian sects it is the one least transparent in its methods and provenly successful in applying them nevertheless.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
You have my deepest sympathies.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.