Is it just my impression or do right-wingers / Christians really despise intelligence / knowledge?
Offline When I was kid, I was praised for getting good grades. I graduated valedictorian of both my high school and college classes (summa cum laude, of course).
My family was proud then, but I've noticed lately they think I'm an arrogant elitist (if I may use the wingnut word). If I'm good at something or knowledgeable, I will say so. I don't believe in false modesty. Nor do I believe in false pride. If I suck at something, I'll certainly admit it.
It seems to me that this anti-intellectualism is spreading. It's cool to be stupid, incurious and ignorant. Fuck that. Just the fact I enjoy learning makes me different from most of the populous and I'm sick of it.
Anyone else here feel estranged from family because you try to improve yourself?
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No but I definitely see what you mean - it seems to be an American thing - mainly with fundies and neocons. They like to call anyone with more intelligence than a kumquat an "elitist. "
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I recently saw an interview with John Cleese where he explained that one thing that really surprises him about America that he didn't notice until he moved here is that Americans generally aren't envious and bitter about wealth like the rest of the world can be. In America, you can definitely want to be as wealthy as the more affluent, but Americans generally aren't as likely to be bitter toward the wealthy simply because they're wealthy.
However, we have something stranger. Americans, for some reason, are more likely to feel bitter toward someone who is vastly more intelligent and/or sophisticated than they are. As painful as it is to realize it, the whole "which candidate would you rather have a beer with" question really taps into an actual American sentiment.
As a result, we end up with horrifying dilemma. We end up with voters who would rather vote for a person they feel comfortable with rather than for a person they feel is qualified.
*gulp*
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
I've noticed it with the 'have a nice day' /how's your day crap you get from shop assistants in the US.
If you are American this probably feels totally normal to me personally a Brit it makes me want to vomit. I don't want people I am doing business with pretending to care about me personally or being my friend (thats not the same as wanting them to be rude to me). I give you money to do a job, you treat me with respect (I also treat you with respect), business transaction done we go our seperate ways)
Oh well just me being a rude brit
But there is a good side to that for those of us who love liberty and freedom. When you get highly intelligent elitists running things, they believe they should decide for the ignorant masses what's best for them. No thanks, I can decide for myself.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
You said it. I didn't. Thanks for explaining precisely why despising intelligence is a bad thing.
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Hello all. I teach high school Biology in Kentucky where they are dumb and proud of it. It is very hard put up with sometimes.
Tell us more about what you have to deal with, please?
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
I know exactly what you mean. You have to realize that the great majority of people are very petty.
I can't say anything about the world as a whole but I definitely see it in the U.S. I often wonder what it might be like to have an atheist state in the country. That is to say a state comprised of all atheist. I've also thought of writing an atheist manifesto.
I can't say that I feel estranged, but I have always felt detached.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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The kids are told I am a demon before they even get to high school.
Here they look down on the smart kids, even bully them. My son is a senior at school and until just this year he was made fun of and kicked around by red necks and jocks. Now he is leaving these yahoos in the dust as he goes off to college on full schalorships.
I had a kid ask the navy rep if she joined the navy would she have to leave Kentucky!
One kid asked what Obama's first name was.
It seems to be more of a conservative/religious thing. Notice you tend to see it in the deep south more than in New England. And in the US much more than in Europe.
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I do not see this as being a right wing phenomena. I think that most people, especially middle school and high school students, look down on intelligence and curiosity. I can think of liberal high school students that considered a devotion to academic studies to be a sign of social deficiency. The worst part is that if you study hard and have friends, hobbies and job; people will still call you a loser nerd in high school. Nothing is less cool to a teenager than someone who takes an interest in academic matters and studies hard.
As far as branding politicians as elitists goes, we just need to get people to realize that Bush and McCain are richer than Obama and they probably think they are better than you more than Obama does. If people would just realize that Republican politicians are rich snobs, and not a friend of Joe Sixpack, then this would not be too much of a problem. But it is a pretty good attack strategy to claim a political opponent is out of touch with most Americans. The democrats should start using that against their opponents who marry millionaires or inherit millions from their fathers.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
Wow. That must be quite an uphill battle. I extend my sympathies.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
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I can picture when teaching about evolution them covering their ears "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!"
And of course teaching Biology without evolution would be like teaching Math without division.
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when evolution time comes the kiddies get mad. I have had them refuse to stay in class before. I have had them cry. and mothers to call. The other biology teacher in my school doesn't even teach it.
Over the years I have learned a few things. Like never use the word evolution when you start out, just explain natural selection and use great examples and when they understand that then tell them it is called evolution. Another trick is to teach evolution as the last chapter of the year. Parents call and complain less that way.
Here we have these home grown preachers that were called to preach. No school, no extra training, just the little voice in thir heads telling them how to make money with their personallity.
That's an amazing story. If I may inquire, do you know what college he will be attending?
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups I suppose.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I notice this mostly people over the age of 30. The people under 30 are more likely to inquire into something or even just try and learn... hell the top 40 people in my class all had gpa's that were all within a percent of each other... the school had to go out 10 decimal points to get the order... if i remember right it was somewhere between 98.??????????% and 97.??????????% All those students took honors/college courses and were the over achievers... I was average at number 108... but this was outta a class of 228 so that was some achievement for those students. Our Valedictorian was only valedictorian because of a .0000000001% higher than the person that he beat...
I'm not sure if I've encountered you on the forums before, and I don't know you very well, so I'm going to try very hard not to read too much into what's written here, but as Hamby pointed out, these kinds of statements are EXACTLY what I was talking about. Your objection, as written, reinforces the point.
We're talking about a highly difficult executive position which controls the world's largest economy. If you're choosing between a folkysy former high school teacher with a good heart and an absolute ruthless dickhead with vast intelligence and executive credentials, who are you going to put in that office?
If you're smart, you'll put in the dickhead.
If you're more comfortable with a guy you'd rather have a beer with, then don't vote for him. He'll have much more time to have a beer with you if he's not busy running the most stressful and time-consuming job on the planet.
It doesn't make sense. For NO OTHER JOB IN THE WORLD do people seriously entertain this kind of sentiment.
Who would you rather have for a surgeon? A pre-med people-person with a good heart or an elitist jerk who's been practicing for twenty years?
Who would rather have managing your bank account? A high school freshmen with a loveable personality or an economic genius with no social skills?
In every other possible context, the idea is preposterous, but somehow people want to choose between presidential candidates as if they're voting for their favorite character on a reality tv show.
You don't want a person who you're comfortable with or who is just like you. You want a person who is so fucking brilliant, so sophisticated, so intelligent, so incredibly out of your league that you feel like a miserable turd standing next to them. When the rest of the countries around the world look at our country's #1 symbol, our icon, the image we have decided best represents us to the world, we want them to see something that is elite and hardcore. We went them to look at our leader and not say, "I'd like to have a beer with that guy, or maybe play some video games with him." We want them to say, "I wish I was like that guy." Or: "The next time I'm in a fix, I know EXACTLY who I'm going to consult... THAT guy." Or: "Holy shit that guy's intellect is intimidating!"
I don't know if I can make my point any clearer, but it should be obvious that I think the "who would I rather have a beer with" sentiment should be tarred, feathered, set on fire, and forgotten. It will only get us into trouble, and I would wager that it has before.
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
... oh the brazen gall of that guy, declaring he is god, and saying ye are god too ... Umm, kill that guy, that fucking elitist??? .... when actually that's a humbling statement that we, and all are one. I'll toast a drink to that thinker ....
elitism:
consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group.
Well, the group of Gnosis, the knowing, of zero faith, ... the most elite wisdom.
Yeah, I like pointing out the stupidity of religion when I can even sneak it in. Me god ... as you god too ... now what? Who has the caring wisdom and reasoned ideas for a more comfy kinder world community? Speak up .... we need you.
BTW , I'm switching from Rum to Tequila.
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Thank you for still teaching this. I was raised a fundamentalist christian in rural America and would likely have had a similar attitude to that of your students if I had been taught real science in my high school. That never happened though because of the conservative bent of the community I lived in. (The football team always got new uniforms, but we didn't even have science textbooks. Priorities! ) I was fortunate enough to attend college and end up with a good education, but I know so many of my classmates never learned even the basics of how the world we live in functions. That's sad.
As to the original question, much of my family doesn't trust me because I am at least somewhat educated. I can't even imagine the level of ostracism if I had a Master's or PhD instead of just a Bachelor's. Maybe I'd go from being a pawn of Satan to one of his henchmen?
"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.
I am always for education, no doubt. But I am against people assuming that just because someone values something more than money, that somehow they shouldn't be educated or that they are lazy.
If you look at Europe and Japan and other countries, even their lowest paid excell in education. I warn against jaded thinking erroding the economic gap.
There is nothing wrong with being happy with what you have. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't value an education, but there also is more to life than a paycheck and a paycheck is not who you are. Edgar Allen Poe died in poverty and Thomas Jefferson died in dept.
I think we need to worry less about getting rich, because there will always be pleanty of people who want that AND THAT IS FINE, I simply warn those people not to devalue those who do the work for them. Certainly we should all be educated, but we also should not project our personal disires on our neighbor.
I have met happy rich people and miserable rich people, I have met intelectual poor people and dumb poor people. I am not against wealth I am against classism. There is nothing wrong with an honest job.
YES EDUCATE EVERYONE, I AGREE 100% but do not expect your neighbor to value the same things you do. You are an individual, and there are plenty of people in all classes that can make it work.
Our system is a three class system and ALL CLASSES should be educatd. Bush is a perfect example of a rich dumbass. I am dirt poor and have more brains than he has, so wealth is not an absolut for everyone.
DONT project your personal whims on everyone. An educated society DOES HELP, but it still requires THREE classes to make our economy work.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Our economy needs three and only three classes? Two or four would collapse the system? I'm a bit skeptical on that point.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
For the person that asked: The University of Kentucky.
Had to point out that not all "right-wingers" are nutsy, Bible-thumping loons. I know a good deal of rational Republican atheists.
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
Wtf. Seriously, wtf. I know it happens, but I just can't believe that in todays world things like that could still happen. They should be ridiculed and laughed at for that, but now it feels like it's a norm.
Hmmm, I fear that he might encounter some of the same morons there. Did/will he, by any chance, attempt a university outside of the state?
For example, the University of Washington, Seattle?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
It does everything to reduce the three classes on two, a handful of the rich, and billions of the poor, and it seems like a bad idea. We need some kind of hero thief, who would rob the rich and give a part of their money to the poor, so they become a middle class, and some of the middle class would become rich by their business, and so they would become a supporters of the poor.
This would eliminate a great part of the poor and rich classes, which should be the fewest as possible, for the good of all. Maybe, eventually, there would be just one class, a human being.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Ugh, more idealistic, socialist utopias.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Maybe, eventually, there would be just one class, a human being. ~ ? ////
Ugh, more idealistic, socialist utopias. ~ butterfield ////
Well yeah, sure, of course, sorta basically ... one earth, one race, one class. Cooperation with only inspired caring Competition. Yep, I AM a peace and love tree hugging old hippie dreamer.
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Tell your godless republican friends to get their party off my personal beliefs, stop their slash and burn corperate welfare, and stay off my body and personal morals, if they would do that, I would start considering them.
The left bothers me with their hate crime crap and their climate of censorship to protect people's feelings.
My problem with republicans is that they are economic anarchists and social snoops.
I don't like either party but I dont reject all of either party. I am merely conserned that all the personal issues such as abortion, guns and personal beliefs have allowed the foxes(politicians in both parties) to raid the hen house, our pockets and morals at the expense of the economy.
I voted for Obama because his party as politically correct as it can be sometimes, is still less likely to lead us back to the dark ages of theocracy.
I fight my social liberal friends all the time on their "don't offend me" crap and get blasted for it constantly. I suggest limited government, I get blasted. I suggest that those who have more can give more, I get blasted, even when Warren Buffet agrees with me.
I hear it from both sides all the time.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I am not against having a class system. Humans will always value different things, but you are right, in all that I don't think it is a stretch to tell people not to project themselves on others.
I don't blame the rich for everything, but I also think the gap is killing us and there is a lack of introspection from the corperate sector in that they have become jaded in that anyone that doesn't become filthy rich must be a loser. Maybe if they would look within themselves to give back to those lowest paid workers, the workers in the middle and poor class would not feel the need to go to government to protect them.
I am for YOU doing your own thing while valuing what you have and knowing the difference between what is you actually need vs something you merely want.
"Let them eat cake" is the attitude of someone who has more than they need and doesn't realize it.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.