Alexander and Hebrews
Are there any writings from ether the Greeks or Hebrews concerning the time when Alexander moved through the middle east? Did the Hebrews put up a spirited defense?
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Alexander and Hebrews
Posted on: January 18, 2009 - 3:29pm
Alexander and Hebrews
Are there any writings from ether the Greeks or Hebrews concerning the time when Alexander moved through the middle east? Did the Hebrews put up a spirited defense?
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Well, most of the Hebrew writing from the period is lost, so no joy for you there. There is however a fair bit of Greek text kicking around but that is mostly copies of earlier work and hand copies of text tend to lose out on accuracy.
As far as the military aspect, no joy to be had there either. A couple of years earlier, Alexander had two decisive victories against the Persian empire in what is now modern day Turkey. Shortly after that, he instituted a policy of allowing opposing forces to switch sides if they would become loyal to him. So on his way through the area where the Hebrews lived, they mostly went belly up. In fact, one web site that I checked with suggested that the Hebrews may have offered to name all male children born that year after Alexander as a quid pro quo for not erecting a statue of himself in the temple.
What significant action there was amounted to the siege of Tyre and Gaza, which were both Persian strongholds at the time. Also of note is the fact that strong national identities had yet to develop and most people in that general area held their highest loyalty to their city. As a result, when the Tyrean Navy returned from elsewhere to find the city under Alexandrian rule, they threw in with him, thus giving him the first significant navy he had.
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Josephus ( Antiquities XI, 231-247 ) makes mention of a visit to Jerusalem by Alexander. He supposedly made a sacrifice at the temple of Solomon, told the peasants to carry on their business, and left. The event is echoed in the Talmud. Alexander became a Jewish name from then on, probably in gratitude that he didn't crush their petty little state like a bug. The Jews commemorated the date ( 25th of Tevet ) as a minor holiday.
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http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/1maccabees.html
I had this question a long time ago and I believe it was Zarathustra/Nietzsche's Student that gave me this answer.
At the time, I had thought there was only one book of Maccabees. Turned out I had read only the 3rd.
That's a good site for initial knowledge. At least I think so.
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There is one book of the Bible that discusses Alexander the Great, the Book of Daniel. Now, I'm sure a bunch of you are thinking, that book was written before Alexander lived, and you're right. But how else can you explain the prophecy in Daniel 8 that a King of Greece will defete the Medes and the Persians, defeating four kingdoms in total (Alexander also defeated the Indians and the Egyptians) and usher in a time of great prosperity, but nevertheless die (and not in battle) at the height of his power?
The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. Daniel 8:21-25
The Book of Maccabees in the Apocyrpha begins with a discussion of Alexander. I accept this as an important historical document, but, unlike the Book of Daniel and other books in the Bible proper, it is not out Christian belief that the Apocryphal books are the inerrant Word of God (except, as I understand it, to Catholics, but you'd have to ask them about their views). Maccabees does not discuss any resistance to the Greeks until after the death of Alexander, but there's nothing in the Greek histories that indicates any significant resistance to Alexander in Palestine.
BTW, I'm growing more and more amused by the number of posts in the Biblical Errancy forum that have nothing to do with Biblical Errancy. If you guys need a dictionary, www.merriam-webster.com is pretty good.
Once an athiest, now a believer, and always ready to debate issues respectfully.
I'm sorry, but you've really put a lot of interpretation into that to extrapolate Alexander from it. Yes, you could say that Alexander was a Grecian king, but it doesn't actually say there that he destroys the four nations previously mentioned. It just says that he has a fierce countenance and he shall destroy the mighty and holy people. I'm not sure when Alexander stood up against the prince of princes, so I don't know what that refers to, either. The passage is vague enough to apply equally to Alexander's father, actually.
If you're going to be condescending about specificity, kindly don't do it after you've interpreted a vague passage in the Bible as specifically referring to a historical person. That makes you look rude and willfully ignorant.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Philip II of Macedon, Alexander's father, defeated neither the Persians nor the Medes, and he was assassinated (and therefore very much broken with hand), so the prophecy cannot apply to him. Other Greeks did defeat the Persians on occasion, but the Medes were in present-day Iran, and Alexander is the only Greek ruler ever to have conquered them. So we have now narrowed down the prophecy to a single person out of the billions who have ever lived. Moreover, there is nothing in the prophecy that is untrue if applied to Alexander. He did bring peace and prosperity to many lands. He did die in the full measure of his power, but not in battle. He did defeat four, and only four, dominant civilizations. Here's a contemporary sculpture of Alexander: www.ancientsculpturegallery.com/253.html. I'll leave it to you to decide whether he had a fierce countenance; I certainly think so.
Daniel's prophecy is so specific that, if I didn't know better, I would have said it had been written after Alexander lived and inserted into the Book of Daniel surreptitiously. If you still think the Alexander prophecy is vague, it just shows the extraordinary leaps of illogic that athiests are willing to make to avoid having the fact of fulfilled prophecy challenge your narrow world view. Tell me, do you also deny that the Temple of Herod was destroyed as Jesus prophesied in Luke 21?
And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Luke 21:5-6
Please, please say that you find that prophecy vague, too. That would pretty much put the capstone on my argument that athiests are in denial.
Once an athiest, now a believer, and always ready to debate issues respectfully.
Hold your horses. First of all, there is no talk of defeat in the paragraph you gave. Here it is again:
We have the kings of Media and Persia mentioned, yes. Four nations are not in his power. Then, at the latter time of their kingdom, a king of fierce countenance shall stand up. His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power, and he shall destroy wonderfully, etc.
You would have to interpret who he was destroying, there. The mighty and holy people, certainly, but he also destroys "wonderfully" and "by peace". But it does not say that he destroys the nations previously mentioned. It says that he stands up against the prince of princes, is that a reference to the time of Jesus? (I mean, is he the prince of princes? I'm not up on my Bible, so I'm asking if that's the usual interpretation.) Does that mean Tiberius, then? He's not really Greek, I suppose.
Slow down, for crying out loud. One thing at a time. Tell me where I've strayed logically, and we can discuss that.
I don't know! Jeez. Are there ruins of Herod's temple? I mean, if there are, it would be difficult to deny that the thing was destroyed, wouldn't it?
No, that one's actually pretty straightforward. Not a lot to interpret, there.
Well you corrected me, didn't you? So now I know that the function of parables is to confuse the unworthy. That's what I wanted to know.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Let me illustrate: If, in 1600, I had predicted that a nation founded in America would fight two wars in Mesopotamia, winning and yet not achieving peace, and a new leader would arise as a result, I'd say that was pretty impressive prophecy, because it predicted something very unlikely and very specific, the American difficulties in Iraq in the last 20 years. As for the new leader arising, that isn't so specific--it could refer to President Obama, or any of about 20 Iraqis, or Prime Minister Brown in England, or God only knows whom else. The fact that part of my prophecy (the new leader) was ambiguous certainly doesn't make my prophecy more impressive. It does not, however, render my prophecy as a whole less impressive, either--it would still be damned impressive. The prophecy would obviously have been fulfilled, even though I can't point to a specific new leader who arose as THE new leader.
Daniel's prophecy about Alexander is like this--Greece conquering the Medes and the Persians was as unlikely to his audience as an American nation fighting wars in Iraq would have been in 1600. The parts that are amazingly detailed are wholly unlikely. The parts that are not so detailed are plausible, but not as interesting, because they can't be unambiguously identified to a single event. That doesn't make my prophecy, or Daniel's, any less impressive, though. Of course, if the ambiguous part were wrong, then the entire prophecy would be rubbish, so it's still worth examining, but that's not the case with the dream in Daniel 8.
Once an athiest, now a believer, and always ready to debate issues respectfully.
But did he destroy by peace? And what could that possibly mean?
I think you may have missed my meaning. What I meant was that the prophesy doesn't actually say the king in question conquers anything. It says he destroys, etc., but it doesn't actually direct his destruction against anything. It says he "stands up", which is inconclusive about the outcome, to say the least. I'm just not sure about your interpretation of that passage as being as cut-and-dried as predicting Alexander. That's why I say it's vague: because it is.
Right. I'm thinking "king of kings", which I'm not even sure is an expression used that early for the Messiah.
But again, no conquering is mentioned, so it wouldn't matter. Destroying, yes, conquering no.
If it said "defeat" anywhere in there, I wouldn't even be arguing with you. It just mentions four nations, and then says a king will destroy wonderfully. That could refer to a civil war just as easily as a foreign war. The mention of the four nations doesn't even have to be connected to the follow-up statements about the king in question. It doesn't say "He will destroy THEM wonderfully", or "Then he took them down" or anything like that. They never end up being the explicit object of his destruction.
Except, again, that the prophesy is too vague to be falsified.
Yes, that would be impressive, but that's very specific.
You're suggesting that Jesus prophesied something you can't even assert happened? I mean, that a temple that you can't show me the ruins of was destroyed? That's not so overwhelming as evidence goes, I have to say.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Once an athiest, now a believer, and always ready to debate issues respectfully.