Free Will or God's Pawns?
Posted on: July 15, 2008 - 11:00pm
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Free Will or God's Pawns?
Seems like Pharaoh is a pawn in this instance... (Not to mention Moses' loss of his right to just go his own way.)
Any more?
Exodus 4:21
21. And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
The last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument: "It came from god."
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Kind of puts the thing they constantly spew about God not interfering with free will in the shitter.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Yes, you could say "pawn", although marionette was my initial thought.
Exodus=treacherous and despicable
If one accepts that God is all-knowing (sorry I don't know if there is a biblical quote for this, but all the christians I've met do believe this) then how could we possilbly have free will? If God knows everything then he must also know everything that we are going to do, hence what we are going to do is already predetermined.
There is nothing in the Bible that says we have free will. Any 'Christian' that tells you so does not know the scriptures. Predestination does not mean you're getting to heavan no matter what you do.
dp
Actually, there are many Christians who do NOT believe in "free will" as taught today by many churches. In fact, Baptists, Presbyterians, and other denominations who have their roots in the Reformation stem from view points that man never seeks God on his own, even if their followers today believe in "free will", their founders did not.
Reformed theology that came from Luther, Calvin, and others during the reformation claims the scriptures never claimed this.
Here is a website that endorses Reformed Theology.
www.monergism.com (I know the name is weired; it means something about the Holy Spirit calling people to be saved or something)
Also, you could check out Martin Luther's book "Bondage of the Will"
I don't want to debate if humans have free will, I just want to show many believers don't believe in free will like some Christians present it today.
Well who doesn't love bondage?
I grew up being taught in the reformed tradition, and honestly, the free will thing never made much sense to me (among other more fundamental things). It's not something I really worry about anymore.
I will say that I'm not sure total free will exists in modern society. Everything is within context. For instance, if you are within a certain social class, you do not have the option to spend your money on certain things (if you aim for financial responsibility, that is). If you are married, it is generally unacceptable to have intimate relations with other people. Of course, in other societies, norms may be different - to reiterate, it depends on context. Sometimes, circumstances make it clear that one option is better or more profitable in the long run than another, even though both may be viable options.
But one DOES have free will in choosing the options available to him or her. Whether you make a "good" or "bad" decision is left to society to judge. But one is perfectly capable of choosing either, in the absence of any divine intervention.
we do have free will, its just governed by a corrupt heart.
If anyone comes to god its because god has come to him first.
i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name
in your view, it sounds like anything goes.
no wonder we live in a world full of madness.
moral standards must be absolute.
two belief systems cannot be right, logic tells us either one is right or they are both wrong.
i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name
You seem to be quite bigoted against any religion that is not your own. I'm an equal oppertunity atheist I don't believe in all religions equally.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
they are all wrong, i didnt convert from atheism because i needed a religion to believe in something to fell better or escape the fear of death. I was not affraid to die i wanted to cut my wrist and end it all afew years ago, and counciling didnt help.
look at each religions world view and youll find christianity fits our reality perfectly.
i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Do you happen to remember why you were an Atheist?
Do you know why you suddenly became a christian?
What sect of christianity?
I've looked at christianity and cannot see how it fits our reality so I would ask you to please explain further. While you're at it, tell us about the other religions views and how they differ greatly from christianity. If you're not willing to do the work, we cannot help you.
Go to saudi arabia or iran and preach christ, im sure they will welcome you with open arms.
i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
look
he saying "tell us about the other religions views and how they differ greatly from christianity."
ill compare two: islam and christianity
go to islamic countrys like saudi arabia or iran and preach christ. Say your last goodbyes if you do decide to go.
Oh but theyre not that different right?!?!
i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name
I'm an Atheist. So I doubt I'd be preaching the word of any fairytale.
You are aware however, that Muslims view jeebus as a saviour, as the annointed one, as a servant and prophet of/for the people, aren't you ???
Additionally, by and large, Muslims believe that any person who claims to be Muslim must believe in all of the scriptural prophets, Jesus included.
And you no doubt are aware that, just like christians, Muslims believe that jeebus could raise the dead and heal the sick.
They are many, many more similarities between the two religions. They are closely linked.
Please though, do consider answering all of my questions if you have come here to RRS forums to seek advice and help. This will help us better understand you. Well, least it would be a start.
Muslims base their lives on the Five Pillars:
1. The testimony of faith: "There is no true god but God (Allah), and Muhammad is the Messenger (Prophet) of God."
2. Prayer: five prayers must be performed every day.
3. Giving: one must give to the needy, as all comes from Allah.
4. Fasting: besides occasional fasting, all Muslims must fast during the celebration of Ramadan (the ninth month of the Islamic calendar).
5. Hajj: the pilgrimage to Mecca should be performed at least once (in the twelfth month of the Islamic calendar).
These five tenets, the framework of obedience for Muslims, are taken seriously and literally. A Muslim's entrance into paradise hinges on obedience to these Five Pillars.
Compared to Christianity, Islam has several similarities but significant differences. Like Christianity, Islam is monotheistic (belief in one God), but it rejects the concept of the Trinity. Islam accepts certain portions of the Bible, such as parts of the Law and the Gospels, but rejects the majority of it as slanderous and uninspired.
Islam claims that Jesus was a mere prophet—not God’s Son (only Allah is God, Muslims believe, and how could He have a Son?). Rather, Islam asserts that Jesus, though born of a virgin, was created just as Adam—from the dust of the earth. Muslims believe Jesus did not die on the cross. Although denied by Islam, the Trinity and Christ’s redemption on the cross are central to Christianity.
i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name
If you read previous to this, Pharoah hardened his own heart three times. God essentially gave him what he wanted. He crystalized what Pharoah was committed towards in his mind. This need not interfere with free will.
Your question does not really follow. Simple foreknowledge does not invoke causality. What if God knows every possibility of what can happen, could we call that exhaustive knowledge? yet, it is not determinative. I think you have made an error in logic with your statement.
Within Christianity are two streams of thought on free will. They are called compatibalism and non-compatibalism (libertarian freedom). Compatibalism holds that free will and divine sovereignty are possible in spite of the fact that God is responsible for all that happens. Non-compatibalists argue that free will requires free moral agents and argues against determinism. Reformed theology holds to the compatibalist view which sees all things as ultimately determined by God. This does not mean all people of the reformation hold to this view. Reformed theology refers to streams of tradition that spring from John Calvin's theology.
"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)
If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?
And before you attempt to argue your way out of this, omniscience itself is a paradoxical quality and I gaurantee you that your arguments will fail as they've been tried and tested many times before.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Pharaoh's hardening of his own heart was done by Pharaoh because he couldn't maintain such hardening at all times. When god, according to you, "crystallized" the hardening Pharaoh had previously chosen freely on three separate occasions, the almighty was indeed interfering with free choice and free will.
No, it wasn't. Sure, read Ex. 9:27-35 and you might get this mistaken account; read further into chapter ten, though, and you'll discover the real reason why Pharaoh turned around after repenting of his sins in witness of the power of God: "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may do these miraculous signs of Mine among them." Not even repentance was enough! God had to rain down His destruction again, fresh on the heels of the hailstorm! That was His whole purpose! God said to Pharaoh, "for this reason I have raised you up." That's all!
Read Romans 9. Pharaoh was a pot made by God for dishonor, for the purpose of demonstrating His wrath to the elect. After that, he was flung into Hell. Pharaoh had nothing to do with it, ultimately, no matter how much Calvinist cultists blabber about divine decree and the guilt of man for their robotic "free will." Horseshit. Romans 9 doesn't talk about one pot being made for honor and the same clay making itself into a dishonorable pot while God goes off whistling and looking the other way. No. He fashions dishonorable pots in the same way as the honorable ones.
Romans 9:10-13. Read it. There is no free will. There is no free will. Got it? Before any good or evil, so that the purpose of election would stand, God said He loved Jacob and hated Esau. He didn't look to the future and see what they would do; it says before. Back in Romans 8, He didn't look in the future and predestine those who would choose Him; "foreknew" is an active verb there in the Greek. Galatians states this is a "purpose unto Himself," i.e. randomly. He puts up the Elect and Reprobate, decrees the Original Sin and the Crucifixion to justify both, then puts it all into action, so He can jack off with the elect while making the reprobate suffer in this life and then burn them forever with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb.
"Christ died for you" is a sham. Only the elected were selected.
I take Munsey's heretical position:
"Paul said, ‘Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, why hast thou made me thus?’ If that means that God condemned Esau and Pharaoh to eternal punishment, before the birth of both – that he hated Esau before he was born; and that he raised up Pharaoh for the purpose to destroy him; or that God, from a mere arbitrary prerogative in Himself, condemned any other man, or set of men, THEN ALL THE CONDEMNED HAVE A RIGHT TO CHALLENGE GOD’S JUSTICE, and to ask the question, ‘Why hast thou made me thus?’
If formed for eternal condemnation, they have the right to ask the question, and if possible TO RESIST THE POWER OF SUCH A GOD. That God who made Esau, should hate Esau before he was born, and send him to hell, AND THEN TRY TO HUSH ESAU’S MOUTH IN ASKING A REASON FOR IT, by the sentence, ‘Who art thou that repliest against God?’ is irreconcilable with any idea of Justice possible to conceive of in any mind. If this, in defiance of all our ideas of justice, be justice with God, then we can never form any idea of any moral quality, and we are unprepared to understand any requirement in the Bible. If this be justice, then lasciviousness may be chastity, as far as we can form any idea of it.”
No wonder Satan rebelled after being the one closest to the three-headed monster called the "trinity." Who wouldn't? The God of the Bible is the most wicked being conceivable. This wipes omnibenevolence out and establishes omnimalevolence. Ergo, God does not and cannot exist in the Christian sense.
Can't cut it out of the Bible, man. Just cut out the whole thing instead and live free of the perverted idea of the bondage of your will.
"When the Lord Jesus Christ in His own words describes in some little detail that great drama that's the most important event in all human history, time, and eternity - this event, the great general judgment - the Lord Jesus Christ, then shall He say unto them on His right hand, 'Come ye blessed of My Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, for when you had opportunity at one of Billy Graham's campaigns you went forward and took good ol' Jesus as your very own personal savior.' NO! GET REAL!" - Fred Phelps
Well, Flagg, I can only speak for myself here and I assume most of what you wrote was directed at the others and not me. Overall you and I would likely be in agreement on most issues regarding the bible (or any holy book for that matter).
Just wanted to say that I have read several different versions of the christian bible as well as other non-christian texts... but I definitely didn't remember the parts of Romans 9, especially 10-13, until you reminded me of it. I don't ever recall these passages making much of an impression on me any of the times I read them. I can definitely see where you are getting your interpretation of Romans/god/Pharaoh/free will. You made excellent points and thanks for helping me to better examine what I had previously failed to notice.
Hah, I didn't notice you were playing Devil's (God's?) Advocate here.
Romans 8-9 is the foundation for Calvinism (along with John 6). The Calvinist James White called Romans 8=9 the "cathedral of the Christian faith." Sick.
"When the Lord Jesus Christ in His own words describes in some little detail that great drama that's the most important event in all human history, time, and eternity - this event, the great general judgment - the Lord Jesus Christ, then shall He say unto them on His right hand, 'Come ye blessed of My Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, for when you had opportunity at one of Billy Graham's campaigns you went forward and took good ol' Jesus as your very own personal savior.' NO! GET REAL!" - Fred Phelps
I think your post assumes alot and is overly simplistic. I am not a Calvinist and so I don't hold to most of what you posted supposedly "most" Christians hold to concerning these ideas. I am not advocating some kind of agnostic free will that does not permit God to act in this world. God's election is often for particular purposes and thus has absolutely nothing to do with final destinies ergo your examples fail. I agree with you that the Calvinist view of God is an abomination but I don't need to jetison Christianity over one particular theologically inconsistent system. God used a prideful man, Pharaoh, to make himself known. He needn't do anything beyond what the predictable behavior of an egotistical would obviously result in. I believe in common grace/prevenient grace thus I disagree with the bondage of the will in so far as Calvinism carried it.
All existence is connected as one, and so in a physics sense all is pre-determined, and so there is no free will of g-o-d, as meaning all existence and ourselves ... yet the seemingly random behavior we feel as "free will" consciousness, is nothing more than the included nature of yet undefined random chaos, as is the mystery of consciousness ... BUT within the "closed eternal system" of thermodynamics, as now QM science is revealing. (aha, that needs re-writing as usual)
Science is the only honest study of g-o-d, then philosophy summarizes linguistically, then religion always spins into hocus pocus idol worship separatist dogma poison.
We are the eyes of g-o-d looking at it self.
Atheism Books.
The universe is intrinsically unpredictable, at least in detail, due to either chaotic effects (non-linear interactions which can lead to exponential growth of slight variations in initial conditions) or quantum effects, often magnified by chaotic feedback, despite being deterministic in the 'cause-effect' sense.
Even simple systems of three bodies interacting purely under the influence of the ideal law of gravitational attraction can display chaotic effects and be unpredictable under some conditions. We do see mostly stable systems because those configurations more prone to chaotic effects tend not to persist.
Our choices are determined by our wants, desires, past experience, current sensory input, interacting in our brain in very complex ways, so also very often just as intrinsically unpredictable as any other complex system. Not sure what 'free will' means in this way of looking at things, except as a description of what it 'feels like' from the 'inside' to the complex process that is 'me' when I make a conscious choice.
So a hypothetical being knowing every detail of the history and current state of the Universe would still not 'know' the future in absolute certainty, even without quantum uncertainty. If such a being also had the power to effect the course of events over and above the 'natural' interactions, and also reacted to events, that would only make it worse, since He would now be part of the larger Universe+God system, and would be even less able to know the ultimate course of events.
Even without quantum uncertainty, the idea of a God 'outside' the Universe who could know the future course of events within the universe would only logically work if He never intervened in response to any particular outcome, otherwise he is no longer outside the whole system, He is part of it, and just as subject to the problems of complex, potentailly chaotic interactions.
It's a pity 'God' lets his frustration at his ultimate, and inevitable, inability to keep things on track, lead Him to lash out and do some of the nasty things ascribed to Him in the Bible...
So irrational, since you'd think an all-kowing being would understand the nature of complex systems even better than we do.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Swith89 posted this essay which relates,
"Simplifying the Hard Problem of Consciousness"
http://evanlouissheehan.home.comcast.net/~evanlouissheehan/Simplifying_Consciousness.htm
Atheism Books.
And Moses replied, Get yourself another sucker. I don't have time for this shit.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Always fascinating to me how what are probably entirely mythical stories like Exodus, which has no direct archaeological evidence to support it, become the subject of so much discussion and debate....
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
This is nonsense. The big bang shows that the universe came into existence at a specific time in the past and thus the universe is not eternal. You have given no reason to disbelieve in free will.
I think you have made a category mistake. You seem to suggest that the only way God can be in the universe is that He in some way is within it in a physical way. This avoids the metaphysical but that doesn't prove anything. If God is immanent and transcendent, which Christianity upholds, then He is both within and beyond the universe. Also, God's knowledge would necessarily include the chaotic elements of the universe since those are all contingencies.
And from verses 11-12,
11 And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?
12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.
KJV
I can testify (for what its worth) that it's a difficult thing to try to imagine that God could be sovereign, over all that's seen and all that's unseen. One only needs to look at oneself, not to mention all the rest of the evil/darkness that surrounds us. I simply don't want to think that God could have anything to do with it(the evil/darkness).
But if there is a God like this, maybe there is purpose above what we can imagine or comprehend. Can an ant begin to fathom our world?
If..... this God, where BIG enough to have ordained all that we(everyone of us) are, do and will do,..which means He would bring it(all) through to completion,.... in this context, then.....as clay in His hands, would we be fools to judge him? Well if we did, ...then i guess it would've been ordained, huh? I guess He's big enough to deal with our emotions.
So anyway, don't we feel as if we have free will, how then could we begin to believe otherwise?
On the other hand, if there were a God that powerful and sovereign over us and we were unable to sense or know it, then I suppose it'd be fair to say He's doing a pretty good job of it.
Most Christians I know don't like the subject of Gods sovereignty, almost immediately the response is " but I have free will" or "God wouldn't make us to be puppets". How could we know?
To answer the question then, GaiusJanus,.... I say Pawns, that for all intents and purposes experience free will.
THE CONCEPT/BELIEF OF GOD IS IRRATIONAL!!...Unless....He comes out of hiding....and reveals Himself. How, when?
******* NOT BY THE WILL OR DESIRE OF MAN, BUT BY MY SPIRIT, SAITH THE LORD *******
spumoni. You are severely overly impressed by our neighborhood "little bang" of surly infinite other bangs of unimaginable infinite eternal unmeasurable proportion.
Just saying friend, STOP ASSUMING. How many "bangs" way out there, going on even this very moment??? Think MUCH BIGGER, MUCH SMALLER .... Is there a limit, a finite cosmos of big and small stuff? .... Heck, I don't know, so I refuse to ASSUME. I lack the knowledge of what all reality is ....
But I will say this, "We are god, as whatever reality is, includes US !!! .... Worship is godlessness, Faith is clueless-ness ... saving is for the assuming hypocrites. To the religious I say, "your general definition of god is infantile" ....
You religious, your god idol is childishly perposterosus, AND I WILL tell all the questioning kids that your separatist god dogma crap is fucking stupid ignorance. HEY KIDS , YOU ARE 100% GOD, fuck those that tell you differnet. Religion is all Bull Shit , division .... NOTHING is DIVIDED, all is ONE. Fuck that god of Abe delussion , separatist crap. The proof is in our science ....
Nothing is actually free, as all is 100% connected .... no way out .... condemned to be ... Define "free" ???????? I say free of a free master, nothing is free-er than me .... is that free ????
Atheism Books.
Welcome to RRS.
Eh, The Big Bang didn't create the universe, per se, it was simply an expansion of space. Currently, we don't have any reliable theory on what occurred or existed beforehand.
Correct, if you're God exists, then He doesn't have to follow this law. However, the obvious resulting problem is that since you're just making an assertion about your beliefs, God doesn't have to follow any laws.
1Emanuel wrote:
Oh, cool. Self affirming, pathos based, Bible verses.No, it's not difficult to imagine at all. It's difficult to believe in because there's no evidence for it.
Premise - Look at yourself.
Premise - You can feel it.
Conclusion - Therefore, God exists.
Yay!
Argument from intellectual withdrawal due to fear?
Yes, if your God exists, then there would be an ultimate purpose.
This metaphor is pointless.
Aaaww, not the "God is the Creator of the universe so you can't question Him argument."
http://www.rationalresponders.com/free_will_why_we_don039t_have_it_and_why_that039s_good_thing
Definitely.
Yikes!
Thanks for the answer.
I'm curious 1Emanuel; are you an agnostic theist?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Butterbattle, sorry I didn't respond sooner.
Butterbattle wrote:
"Oh, cool. Self affirming, pathos based, Bible verses".
I am sometimes guilty of overlooking our (we creatures/us humans) need for self affirmation in my zeal to proclaim the sovereignty of God. But then, for me.....to "acknowledge Him in all my ways" I cannot do otherwise.
On a side note
Moderator- pardon me if this gets off subject) I've spent some time on this site reading and becoming acquainted with your community and I am quite surprised. I'm pleased and interested to read things like....(I'm paraphrasing/going from memory)...He, if he exists has not shown Himself to me....., therefore I don't know that he exists....I believe he knows what it takes to make me believe, etc., etc. This frankness and honesty I find not only honorable but I am very impressed. Myself and many Christians have not taken the time to hear your hearts. So, As I am compelled..... I apologize for myself and many who would appreciate and also respect your views. To be honest another thing I noticed as I read....bitterness, especially towards Christians.....I think this comes from the "Turn or Burn" style of preaching......trying to scare you into the kingdom....Fear of God, etc. I think too many believe that a person needs to somehow convince him/herself that it is the right thing to do, they use alot of Christian lingo, alot of scripture and believe that by reason, one should believe. On the contrary, one believes as and when Grace comes.(please allow me a few lines in effort to show you a little bit of their hearts)They in their zeal, are trying to save the world, they also believe they'll be rewarded and judged for their efforts. This I find, is common with many, ....to have a heart for evangelism. They experience a lot of rejection, but probably more fear of rejection. I know, I was there. God sent Ezekiel to speak his words to Isreal, and told him they wouldn't hear him, but speak anyway. A similar thing with Jeremiah, Imagine being sent to Jerusalem to tell the Jews that their God says " The King of Babylon is coming, go with him to Babylon and live in peace; whosoever stays in Jerusalem will be destroyed with the city." This post started with Moses,..Wow,..Full circle?... God used Moses to speak["I will be with your mouth"] to Pharoah. (BTW, God used Moses to bring thousands of Gods people out of bondage....not too bad a move for a pawn...huh?) Except for Moses, Most of the Prophets were killed ....by the Jews (their own people), because they didn't believe or like what the prophet spoke. In the early centuries of the Christian Church many whom god sent and who claimed to hear from God, were killed/martyred including Jesus and most of the twelve apostles and many others including Joan of arc who was by the Catholic church, burned at the stake. Ya know, early on when I became a believer, I couldn't imagine why some would actually kill another because of their belief/faith. And now,... I fear God......not for who I've been or all that I've done(judgement), He knows... I can't believe apart from His work in me causing me to believe,.... knows I'm a sinner in need of His mercy and grace......I fear(in my flesh)... he will send me to speak to people who will reject the words that he speaks through me. But in my spirit, in faith, I know that he who lives in me is able. I don't fear death, because I believe in life eternal, but,..... I fear suffering a long slow death, like cancer. Being a Christian doesn't entitle me to a life without suffering...actually we're called to suffer(at least persecution). I know a guy who died in his easy chair with a bowl of popcorn on his lap, didn't spill any, and was in good health. Another was cutting grass at his cottage, just fell over dead, also in good health.
I commend you all for standing for your convictions, for that which is burned in your hearts. I know in "due time" if we have questions, they will be answered. Meanwhile, may our hearts be able to tolerate those who differ from us, in reason and in faith.
THE CONCEPT/BELIEF OF GOD IS IRRATIONAL!!...Unless....He comes out of hiding....and reveals Himself. How, when?
******* NOT BY THE WILL OR DESIRE OF MAN, BUT BY MY SPIRIT, SAITH THE LORD *******
Curiously I thought the atheists on this site fashioned themselves around concepts of rationality. Cleary, this does not apply to everyone. Apart from pure speculation, I find little meaning in the above statements. The panentheist worldview is a logical contradiction so your God concept seems to be the one that is infantile, but who's calling names here? Unless you can contribute something meaningful why waste your time posting nonsense. Of course, you're free to do whatever you want with your time. Did I say you were free? Better retract that.....
I understand your common confusion spumoni, as I am so luckily g-o-d rational, my words do fall on many a deaf ear. Mine is an ancient message. It comes with a humble knowing that all is ONE. G-O-D is simply all connected existence. All god definitions of separatism, as in idol worship, are bunk.
My above posts to you are dirt simple.
Atheism Books.
Thank you. This short response already makes me respect you more than most Christians that visit this website.
Let me ask you some questions that I've posed time and time again. If you can't answer them, it's okay, because I've never met a single theist that could answer these kinds of questions satisfactorily. Why should I follow your religion instead of any other religion? To clarify, I don't really want to hear the main tenets of your beliefs since I already know them. Instead, I want to know what makes them more likely to be true.
I'm assuming that you're main reason for believing that God exists and the Bible is true is because of "The Holy Ghost" or "conviction" that you receive. What is this conviction? Do you think the "convictions" of Muslims, Jews, Wickens, etc. are any different from yours?
This is my position, that religion is an emotional crutch and an intellectual cop-out. I'm not crippled.
Think about it.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
The counciling didn't help because YOU didn't want it to help you at the time. YOU were not mentally ready to accept your problems. YOU merely replaced one crutch with another.
Have felt suicidal before and I am still an atheist so the fact that you boomeranged means nothing other than you boomeranged. I am happy at this moment in my life because I had a lot of support from my family and friends (without superstition) to get me through those hard times.
I am proof that you can get through depression and still remain an atheist. So what that says to me is that both of us got through it which means that a deity is not required to survive rough times. I am glad you got through it, but YOU did it and YOU wanted to get through it so badly that you falsely attributed it to a god. That is hardly impressive considering there are plenty of atheists and Christians who do not get through it and kill themselves.
If that is what it takes for you survive, I cant stop you. BUT it does not constitute proof of anything other than that you switched positions.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Thanks, Butterbattle.
1) I've an idea why many haven't answered to your satisfaction, but let's wait and see.
2)First, some of the tenets of my Faith may well be considered heresy by many of the "Religious" of the Christian faith, so, you may not be so familiar as you suppose. (However, The one main tenet that many agree upon....the "Christ/Annointed King" of the Holy Bible, AKA.....the "King/Messiah" of the Jews, AKA..."God incarnate...our Creator" and "the only begotten Son of God." From here .... we quickly divide into many sects/denominations, not unlike any belief system, I suppose.) As for your question....To "follow"/believe/practice anothers religion/faith/belief system, makes no sense to me, we need a reason to believe, just as surely as we have a reason to doubt. As far as the tenets of my Faith "being more likely true", I have nothing to hold in my hand for you, or for me to consider as evidence/proof to support my beliefs.
3)"Conviction" in this context is translated into English from Greek in the New Testament KJV using these words: "convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke and reprove". So then this convincing and or correcting is a real experience that many Christians have experienced. It is a communication that the Spirit of God/God/Jesus creates within us. It, the communication, can be manifest as an inner voice, an audible voice, thought, knowledge, sign, etc. I know few who have experienced this "leading" as a common occurrence, at least for a while, and some others only rarely. As far as less than rarely or never, I do not know. This I know, that this leading can manifest in ways that are hard to explain and also without us being aware of it. And this by design, of course. We're not convinced of this leading by reason or by one another, but by God. This I know, it is possible to believe something and not be able to explain why. I suppose I need to explain this; early on in my faith, I believed something which is commonly(by mainstream Christianity) considered heresy. I couldn't explain how or why, but that which I believed, was as a knowledge deep within me, but I couldn't prove it to be true, even to myself. Probably almost daily, as I read scripture, evidence to justify what I believed was shown to me. I wasn't consciously or intentionally looking for it. He just kept shoving it into my face. I couldn't ignore it if I wanted to.(Nor could it be found apart from the will of God) So In this, I realized...or..... was shown, that the Lord was revealing these things to me and showing me why it was true, and why it was misinterpreted or hidden.... a mystery. Truth is revealed by the Spirit of God, all truth and wisdom is hidden in Jesus.
4)The second part of your question..."Do you think the "convictions" of Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, etc. are any different from yours? "..................convictions in the context that I've just shared w/you,...no, I don't think they are the same. This "communication/leading" that I've tried to explain to you is part of what you've likely heard us (Christians)refer to as a "relationship". I haven't heard nor do I know of other faiths/belief systems who speak of (this leading or relationship) conviction. But as fact, I do not know.
In this context however...to be true to ones heart or the convictions of ones heart.... yes, this I believe is the same.
5)I don't consider myself religious as some might suppose. I do however, visit the mens room, eat, sleep and bathe religiously. I don't practice Faith either, but rather, find myself being led/brought forth on a God ordained path(This I know can look very religious to onlookers, not to mention foolish). If by religion you mean belief in a God/god, then yes I am a believer. Crutch?.... IF......God exists, .....and is sovereign,..... and hid your crippledness from you,......... would you be able to know of your need for a crutch? ....Of course not ! Nor would you be able to see your crutch. So then,...as far as you know......You're not crippled ....as far as you know........you're not leaning on a crutch.
What I've labeled paragraph "4)" I've written in my own words, from the convictions of my heart and from my personal experiences. One who reads what I've shared with you can freely judge what I've written and conclude that this has been imagined or invented by the arrogance within me and is clearly false, if not false, then certainly fantastic, and therefore unbelievable. That is OK with me. I no longer need approval of, nor to be highly esteemed of men.
THE CONCEPT/BELIEF OF GOD IS IRRATIONAL!!...Unless....He comes out of hiding....and reveals Himself. How, when?
******* NOT BY THE WILL OR DESIRE OF MAN, BUT BY MY SPIRIT, SAITH THE LORD *******
Well, you certainly have one thing going for you. You are WAY more impressed with your own arguments than I am. To quote you: the reason I should believe you is because "I don't know so I refuse to assume. I lack the knowledge of what all reality is..." Very compelling. So you are recommending I relinquish the known scientific facts of an expanding universe for something you don't even know? I thought you guys were fans of logic on this site. You might try applying it to your own ideas for once. The only thing thats infantile here is your arguments from silence. Just because you make an assertion does not make it true. I'll take Chrsitianity any day to this nonsensical assertion you are trying to make. If you want me to take you seriously, then make an actual cohesive presentation for your views. Otherwise, its a waste of my time.
spumoni. Indeed, I am most impressed by the person I know best, ME. All I can share is my acquired opinions. I idolize nothing, but find general atheists the most wise, and many admirably so.
I would never request anyone abandon the only worthy study of existence, science, and as a poor writer satirist atheist "preacher", I call all existence 100% "gawed". Alan Watts is a prize mentor of mine of many. I am completely closed minded about any Master, Idol, or worship. Mom and Dad taught us 5 kids that the only logical few bits of the bible jesus character were atheistic, and 99% of the bible "g-o-d" biographers were blind hypocrite superstitious ignorant fools.
The "big bang" is simply a transition of energy / matter of how many other possible bangs??? They who would assume only one bang are dumb.
You worshiping religious folks are sad, scary, terrorists, who "do not know what they do", and it is important to me that such faith be peacefully eradicated, falling to the myth it is , such as the greek gods. Appeasement of idol worship, separatism, dogma is wrong.
Everything is gawed or nothing is gawed, as all is a miracle or nothing is a miracle ... there is no middle ground regarding this.
I highly recommend ALL 48 of the admirable bright Pat Condell short videos. Hey, he is a modern prophet, and I often jest, a continuation of the only sensible story jesus, concealed in the "devils" (wrong thinking) holy bi-bull book.
Here's a goody, "Take Your God And Shove Him"
Jesus said don't pray in public. Murderer women basher dogmist crafty Paul worked to turn Jesus into an idol. Wacko elegant John said "only begotten son" .... James was pretty cool. If you are not buddha jesus like, I pity you. Jesus had harsh words, calling peter satan, and the religious hypocrites, and more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M114bK4qaiM
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=patcondell&view=videos
.... and jesus wept, and so do I. STOP religion, it's poison, it is child abuse ....
Atheism Books.
Oh, I never responded to this.
The differences in the mode of communication with each "God" is mostly a matter of semantics. Ostensibly, it's all the same. The believer prays and receives certain unverifiable internal feelings which they interpret to be of divine origin based on faith. They act on these feelings, and, in turn, receive more feelings due to their overwhelming desire to want to believe. As this process is compounded, the believer naturally concludes that there is more anecdotal evidence than there actually is, that, because this process of prayer and "feeling" has occurred countless times, it becomes some "proof" or "conviction." Ex. "The Holy Ghost speaks to me." "I have achieved nirvana and am one with the universe." "I am the servant of Allah, for he shows me the truth daily."
Ah, don't confuse the two definitions of religious, one being a belief in a supernatural belief system. The other is simply doing something fervently, adamantly, strongly, frequently, etc.
What does that mean? If you're believing something without evidence because you "feel like it," then you're practicing faith.
If truth is only "as far as you know" then truth is whatever you know or don't know, which is invalid. Truth is what remains even when you don't believe in it. There is no Bill O'Reilly truth or Richard Dawkins truth, only the one. The crutch doesn't disappear or appear depending on your worldview, it's either there or not there. Look down. Is it there?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Perhaps you are just easily satiated but I find someone's reasoning for rejecting a proposition on the evidence of "my mom told me so" doesn't really hold up well. I guess you must be like ten or something because your logic is infantile and your blind moral judgements lack the capital needed to make them. You still have yet to articulate a point worth engaging here. Oh well, I tried. Chalk this one up to not worth my time.
spumoni
... and your amazing opinions came from where? Perhaps an unexpected blinding flash and spirit voice ... like murderer Saul Paul? .... OR what, who, how??? Please tell us.
Eradicating faith in childish, superstitious, dangerous, separatism idol worship of a master creator, is definitely worth the time.
Bring on the nitty gritty details of your "faith", so we atheists can use you as another example of wrong destructive thinking, to better helping our human race WAKE UP from unnecessary fear and suffering.
Thanks in advance, ME G-O-D ... ( as you (( like it or not )) .... Please include what isn't g-o-d ???
Atheism Books.
Maybe this is a strange concept for you. Let me spell it out. ARTICULATE your OWN beliefs for critique. You seem so confident, lets see what you got. So far, nothing. Turn the microscope back on yourself for once. Let me hear what you believe. Or is that too hard?