The Nazis

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The Nazis

I know I am going to be treading on politically incorrect ground with the following statement. Could the atrocities committed by the Nazis analyzed through the lens of science? I mention this because, in our time, atheism and Darwinism continue to be blamed for the Holocaust. And shouldn't aspects of our human nature such as racism, xenophobia and violence be critically analyzed to prevent such tragedies? The recent irrational diatribe of Bishop Richard Williamson should give Christians pause before they point fingers at atheists for 20th century genocides. And I would also add that the majority of Germans during the Nazi era championed the values of "family", "church" and "tradition" not unlike our current Christian Right.

Yet, just as I feel that Darwin and atheists should not be blamed for Nazism then neither should Christianity (although I'm sure some would debate this and I would likely be first in agreement). What I'm after is the deeper issues of violence and hate that pervades our human nature. Not to denigrate the significance of Nazism and the Holocaust but to also state that historically the human slaughter of other humans in tribal warfare makes the Nazis, Stalinists and Pol Potists appear as saints. And I base this statement on literature in evolutionary psychology by Steven Pinker. We were and are an extremely cruel and brutal species innately wired for violence and not noble savages tainted by the vulgarities of culture.

In other words, the German populace in the '30s and '40s were not kind and gentle lambs transformed into wolves by an irrational and cruel, racist totalitarian ideology. Rather, the Germans were latent wolves whose hate came into fruition by a hateful ideology. And that hateful instinct (as seen in its sequelae in Darfur, Rwanda, Bosnia, etc...) is in all of us. It is all about us and them, in group/out group. Go to any contemporary sporting event (eg. football, rugby) and one could appreciate this instinctive behavior as vitriol is spewed at the opposing team.

The question is that if there are innate "Nazi" modules in us all, what are the best social circumstances to keep them at bay?

 


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If there were such a thing

If there were such a thing as a "Nazi inside all of us" I think the best way to suppress it would be to have an abundance of resources and freedom. People who are happy generally don't go out and kill people.

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Quote:I know I am going to

Quote:
I know I am going to be treading on politically incorrect ground with the following statement. Could the atrocities committed by the Nazis analyzed through the lens of science?

Could be? They have been. Several times.

You're right - it was the overall climate in Germany and Europe that led to the Holocaust & 2nd World War. Laying blame solely at the Nazi administration's feet is just kidding onself; however, the Nazi party and Hitler's personal agenda were a necessary catalyst to catapult that miserable piece of history forward.

Quote:
In other words, the German populace in the '30s and '40s were not kind and gentle lambs transformed into wolves by an irrational and cruel, racist totalitarian ideology. Rather, the Germans were latent wolves whose hate came into fruition by a hateful ideology. And that hateful instinct (as seen in its sequelae in Darfur, Rwanda, Bosnia, etc...) is in all of us. It is all about us and them, in group/out group. Go to any contemporary sporting event (eg. football, rugby) and one could appreciate this instinctive behavior as vitriol is spewed at the opposing team.

The question is that if there are innate "Nazi" modules in us all, what are the best social circumstances to keep them at bay?

I don't think I entirely agree with this. You must remember that Germany was in a state of bitter misery following the Great War, and that the rest of Europe was largely seeking pacifism in the wake of the bloodshed. All kinds of rumors and superstition blew through the streets of Berlin; many Germans mistakenly felt that they had 'nearly won' the Great War but had been betrayed by a varietyof conspirators (primarily these myths centered arund Jews and Communists).

The end of the Great War created a new, dangerous zeitgeist, and this drove forward the events that led to WWII.

Now, I do certainly agree that we all have instincts geared toward territorial aggression (damned genetic baggage), but I don't think it's accurate to label these instincts 'Nazi modules'. The Nazis were successful in attaining power and influence for very specific reasons, within a very specific context and timetable. There are few (I'd argue for only one) roads to fascism, and it requires more than just our base instincts to steer a path towards it.

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
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Quote: And I would also add

Quote:

And I would also add that the majority of Germans during the Nazi era championed the values of "family", "church" and "tradition" not unlike our current Christian Right.

THANK YOU! While I have expounded upon the absurdity of linking the Nazi regime with “atheism” or “Darwinism” here: The Holocaust, this is a point that I forget to mention and that people often gloss over. From a cultural and ideological standpoint, the Nazis bear significant resemblance to the Christian wing of the far right in the United States. (This is, after all, the area on the political spectrum the Nazis were located on). Nazism was a highly reactionary ideology, deploring the decline of “traditional values” owing to the rise of Weimar democracy and foreign influence. They were firm believers in traditional roles and in reactionary, highly conservative society. For example, the Nazi attitude toward woman can be summarized by the “Three K’s”, that is, “Kinder, Kirche, Kuche”, children, church and cooking. The Nazis were fiercely anti-intellectual, despising rational discussion and preferring to exploit mass psychology by employing highly sophisticated propoganda techniques and appealing to crowds with mass rallies. They hated intellectualism and despised critical thinking, re-engineering the education system to eliminate these things. The education system in Nazi Germany was redesigned to reinforce the expected conservative roles that the new generation was expected to slot into. At the zenith of this Nazi obsession, school for boys had become almost Spartan in nature, with over 50% of curriculum time being taken up by military drills and physical education, whereas girls had the bulk of their courses based on cooking and sewing, and were only allowed to study rudimentary mathematics insofar as it would be required for the most basic tasks at home.These practices were only halted when officials were warned that the new generation they were creating was so overwhelmingly incompetent that they would be incapable of running a technical society. It may also interest you to know that as part of the Gleischaltung during the Nazi rise to power, they banned freethought organizations in Germany.

 The Nazis also developed an entire society based wholly on in-group/out-group morality. They emphasized the concept of Volksgemeinschaft, where a model Nazi society would be based on a select set of in-groups and the out-groups would be exterminated or employed as slave labour. As a result, Nazi society became quite simple. You were either an “insider” (a member of the Volksgemeinschaft), or an “outsider”. The Nazis aimed to create a model society in which these “undesirables” who the Nazis called Ballistexistenzen (literally a “waste of space” ) were dragooned into forced labour and/or exterminated. These “out-groups” included Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, political opponents, anti-socials, the homeless, unemployed, alcoholics, the mentally and physically retarded, Slavs, conscientious objectors, Jehovah’s Witnesses*, etc. etc.

Quote:

The question is that if there are innate "Nazi" modules in us all, what are the best social circumstances to keep them at bay?

I would be hesitant to use the phrase “Nazi modules” and I would also not be so quick to say that any action in history made the Nazis appear “saints” by comparison. Whereas the emphasis on hatred of out-groups is certainly quite universal, the degree to which Nazi society was so systematically based entirely on this principle is quite unique. Additionally, the policy of Vernichtungslagern (extermination camps) is so unique (it has no analogue in all history) that it deserves to be considered far more overwhelming and appalling  than the “normal” human tendencies toward suspicion of out-groups. The fact that the Nazis engineered a continent-wide policy of extermination and slave labour based entirely on ideological beliefs and obsessive visions serves to indicate quite a unique event in history. The Israeli historian Yehuda Bauer pointed that, paradoxically, the paroxysms of hatred that the Nazis were driven to by the idea of anyone different is what made them different. They obsessed with a vision of a new world where the Nazi jackboot would crush all those not part of the Volksgemeinschaft and the degree to which they actually pursued this and pursued it successfully also serves to indicate just how unusual Nazi society was.  

However, in answer to your question, I would say that the best way to “keep these tendencies at bay” is to understand them on an intellectual level. That way, you are more likely to recognize the tendencies for what they are and as a consequence. Certainly, I can tell you that possessing a firm understanding of instincts in terms of false positives/post hoc fallacies has helped me tremendously in terms of formulating sound methods in scientific investigation. Also, ironically, having a firm understanding of crowd psychology serves to…well, innoculate against crowd psychology.

*Actually, it may interest you to know that Jehovah’s Witnesses at Auschwitz needed only to sign a form indicating denouncement of their beliefs (the Nazis hated them because they refused to take part in the armed forces or production of arms)  to get released from the camp. Astoundingly, there are very few instances of Jehovah’s Witnesses actually signing them. Himmler was so impressed by the fanaticism of the Jehovah’s Witnesses that he exhorted his SS to have exactly the same attitude toward their work.

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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It is bullshit to blame the

It is bullshit to blame the abuse of science on scientific method itself. The word "technology" refers to inventions humans make in any kind of product which can be used to build or destroy.

A stretching rack is a form of technology as much as an auto. Even in western culture today, we can put out unsafe products such as asbestos because the scientific method that lead to it's invention was rushed to marketing abused by people who cared more about selling the product 'technology" than it's safety.

If westerners say they don't abuse "technology" just ask all the innocent Iraqis and Palistinians whom western troops have murdered in the self intrest of idealism, which is as bad as the abuse of "technology" that suicide bombers use to kill innocent Israelis

Scientific method is not a physical human, it is a process that humans follow, and if the human has no ethics, they can and will abuse the technology scientific method leads us to.

Hitler was simply fucked in the head and the abuses he inflicted on his people and Europe and the world, had nothing to do with science. Not to mention that his SS officers had on their belt buckles "God is with us".

Even the scientists who partisipated in the Manhatten project, after the test was done, most of them cried because they knew what it was going to be used for and the future implications of such a weapon.

Scientific method can be used to build or destroy and humans are responsible for how it is used.

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Quote:It is bullshit to

Quote:

It is bullshit to blame the abuse of science on scientific method itself.

Step 1: Read post

Step 2: Respond to post

The OP asked if Nazism could be analyzed through the lens of science. In other words, would it be possible to find a biological/neurological explanation for the actions of the Nazis as opposed to a purely cultural/ideological one. Your post does not appear to have anything to do with the topic at hand.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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deludedgod wrote:Quote:It is

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

It is bullshit to blame the abuse of science on scientific method itself.

Step 1: Read post

Step 2: Respond to post

The OP asked if Nazism could be analyzed through the lens of science. In other words, would it be possible to find a biological/neurological explanation for the actions of the Nazis as opposed to a purely cultural/ideological one. Your post does not appear to have anything to do with the topic at hand.

Sorry, I was on auto pilot. While you are suggesting science take a look at their brains, could you have someone check mine out? I like shiny objects.

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It's possible, however

I believe its more of a combination of things, from cultural hatred (Europe at the time, especially Germany followed Luther's version Christianity for a long time), they had been morally crushed from the previous war, financially destroyed, high unemployment and in the end mob mentality. All these conditions where there and the broiling anger of a society destroyed by it's previous leaders and it's enemies, all it needed was the proper leader to direct that anger and hatred. Hilter choose a few things, the most easiest target was the Jews, having always been thought as controlling money and banks (even today those conspiracies are there) as well as homosexuals and eventually non Aryans (as eventually the Nazis used Aryan Christianity to spread it's hatred towards non-Aryans). However the first targets were Jews and gays, traditionally the ones the German Church and well Christianity was against in Europe at that time (even up to the early 1900's the catholic church would take the child from Jewish parents if the child had been baptized a catholic, almost always in secret), these groups where always targeted by the church and viewed that they would destroy the values and traditions of a society if they were allowed to continue.

Much like Rwanda, where the church used its traditional values and of course it's desire for power, it sided with the government and the government used the church to spread it's hatred towards Tutsi, and the hutsis followed through with a mob mentality and cultural hatred of tutsi's and the blessing of the church commit the genocide against the tutsis.

Had they been financially ok, none of these atrocities would have occurred. Pot Pol, Russian communism and Chinese cultural revolution, all have very similar things, poverty, desire for power, a common enemy and a dogmatic beliefs. Even before there were all these things from previous atrocities. As a society that has been morally devastated by poverty and ill leaders has lead to these problems. There are a few exceptions of course, with in regards to exploration and expansion. However normally they attack within their own country or others within their society as most of the time to attack other nations it would have taken money they didn't have to do such attacks. Of course in the 20th century technology helped easily move beyond a countries boarders.

But that's my take on it.


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Brian37 wrote:Sorry, I was

Brian37 wrote:

Sorry, I was on auto pilot. While you are suggesting science take a look at their brains, could you have someone check mine out? I like shiny objects.

All mammals like shiny objects.

As far as Nazis go, I don't think the Nazis were any different biologically than any other population. I think it was a combination of a horrid life and an even worse leader. Post WWI Germany was not a good place to grow up. We have to make sure we look at it in context. Those kind of people are everywhere, they just need a push over the edge. Look at the fundies, they're just one charismatic leader away from being a death squad.

 

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What about the Reserve Police Battalion 101

Here is an excellent article on this police squad whose aim was the extermination of Jews, homosexuals and non-Aryans:

http://www.wzaponline.com/BrowningReview.pdf

I concur with all of the arguments put forth regarding the effects of extremist ideologies on crowd psychology, the impact of WW1, the desire for power, etc.. Yet there were groups such as the Police Battalion 101 who consisted of ordinary men no different than us who were not under the direct influence of the Nazi ideology and were not hateful of Jews to begin with. All of the sociocultural arguments put forth have no bearing on the transformation of ordinary Germans such as these into killing machines. I would also point out that these Germans had every opportunity to avoid killing and received no threats to their lives (or their families) for disobeying. They were a voluntary police unit who acted like exterminators ridding a house of insects!! These folks at the outset were not wholly different than the sane empathetic individuals like you or I.

The question I have is that among these ordinary folks, what exactly went on in their heads. It is analogous to asking why a devoutly religious individual who was kind and compassionate then become a suicide bomber. I am not saying that their behaviors arose out of a vacuum or that Nazi genes made them do it. But it doesn't take a lot to transform anyone into a heartless killer. There must be innate cognitive mechanisms which predispose us to violence  that are present to begin with (that are present in us all) which even in very subtle sociocultural circumstances can make us brutal killer savages.

I think to better understand hate and violence (as seen in extremist societies), it would be a mistake to shoulder the blame solely on the ideology. I think that the prevailing ideology and other sociocultural circumstances must trigger innate tribal mechanisms of violence toward other groups. I think this is worthy of scientific investigation to prevent genocides.

 


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Quote:individuals like you

Quote:

individuals like you or I.The question I have is that among these ordinary folks, what exactly went on in their heads.

The testimonies from a large number of Holocaust survivors in the Death camps and concentration camps* seem to have something very common running through them apart from the suffering. Many of them said what their experiences had taught them was that in the right situation, completely ordinary people could become the worst of sadists. Part of the reason this occurred was because Nazi Germany was a place where, really, if you were a member of a group like the SS or the Einsatzgruppen then there weren't any moral restrictions on anything. These groups could do whatever they wished, whether "whatever they wished" was having 30 million Soviet citizens starve to death in forced labour or use patients from mental institutions to test gas chambers. There was no accountability in Nazi Germany. If we are discussing this from a position of innate tendencies, then essentially what we are saying is that these men (the agents of the Holocaust) would find themselves in positions where they were told "you are in a position of omnipotence. Do as you see fit. Inflict violence as you see fit. Do whatever you wish. You have complete power over these untermenschen.". The consequence of this position of omnipotence and utter lack of restriction in Nazi Germany should not need spelling out. One could make the case that people became violent murderers...simply because there was no longer a reason not to.

The other thing (which everyone has forgotten to mention) is apathy. The Holocaust was unique in that it overwhelmingly employed tens of thousands of ordinary people from all walks of life like railway workers, post office officials, manufacturers of Zyklon B, administrative officials, clerks and accountants, doctors, etc. etc. And these people were not (all) monsters like the SS. But they didn't care about what was happening. They were cogs in a vast machine. Railway workers would wear earplugs to drown out the screams of Jews being forced into cattle cars.

However, we still have to return to crowd pyschology, ideology and brainwashing because without the latent anti-Semitism exploited by the Nazis that existed not just in Germany, but all over Europe, the Holocaust would never have been possible. With regards to those three things, my last paragraph in the post above should be sufficient in addressing how we prevent them, but there is one more thing I want to throw in. In a democratic society (Weimar Germany was a democratic government, but not a democratic society), the hallmark of its functioning is checks and balances. That's why there are interest groups and rights groups representing and protecting various peoples and why there are institutions designed specifically to ensure that other institutions don't obtain too much power. In Germany before the Nazis came to power, those institutions either didn't exist at all (there were no rights groups for Jews) or they were too enfeebled by the overwhelming popularity of Nazism which again is partly addressed by the last paragraph of my above post.

*This is a crucial distinction which many people do not understand. The idea of a concentration camp predates the Nazi state. The Nazis used concentration camps as places where the above-mentioned (see above post) "undesirables" would be sent and worked to death as slave labour. But the death camps were fundamentally different. They are a unique creation of the Nazi state which have no parallel in history. If you've ever been to the sites of Sobibor, Treblinka, Majdenak, Chelmo or Belzec (or what's left of them) you'll know that the most astonishing thing about them is how small they are. Sobibor is not much larger than a football field but it together with the equally small Belzec and Treblinka was the grave of 1.5 million people. The reason they are so small is because they had no concentration camp facilities. Their express purpose was murder and nothing else. Auschwitz was therefore unique in possessing the facilities of both.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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Sorry to resurrect a dead

Sorry to resurrect a dead thread, but I was bored and reading it again.

Previously, I had stressed one of the most terrifying aspect of the Nazi dictatorship was it's anti-intellectualism, it's use of mass psychology, bland and simplistic rhetoric and sophisticated techniques of propaganda. I thought I would share a bit of irony with you. You are all no doubt aware of the constant pointing by apologists at the slew of dictatorships throughout the 20th century as examples of the horrors of atheism.

I've never discussed this with anyone before, but ironically, it was partially the study of precisely these dictatorships that pushed me to active atheism, and to science as a profession. The fact that it was the study of history that led me to this may seem odd, but let me try to articulate. I first studied modern history in detail at the ages of 15 and 16 and then in more detail at 17. My study focused entirely on the single party states of the 20th century: the USSR, Nazi Germany, Cambodia, China, Japan, Iran and Italy. In the course of my studies, the common link between them that interested me was not atheism (certainly not in the case of Iran or Japan) but anti-intellectualism. Even today, it chills my blood to think about the collective insanity of the Red Guards during the cultural revolution, or the savage and deliberate murder of anyone even remotely suspected of being educated at all in Cambodia. Not all the dictatorships of the 20th century were atheist. Some, like that of the Taliban and that of the Iranian theocracy, are quite the opposite. But if you want something to link the many single party states of the 20th century, look no further than anti-intellectualism. During the course of my study of these dictatorships at 15-17, I was so horrified by the countless examples of collective insanity that gripped people under the barrage of absurd propaganda and groupthink. From the book burnings of Nazi Germany to the denouncement of professional education as bourgeois by the lunatic Red Guards, the deliberate and calculated assault on learning, rationality and thinking in the case studies I encountered made me sick. I swore to myself that I would do everything in my power to inoculate myself against the mass psychology, and to firmly commit myself to the principles of intellectualism and learning. Because I was simultaneously discovering a talent for science and mathematics, the course I embarked on was natural. I had always been atheist, but the study of modern history was a key factor in pushing me toward active dislike and then disgust with religion since it is grounded on the very same corrosive nonsense discussed above.

So, yeah, irony.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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That really puts me to

That really puts me to shame. I can't say it was the first time for certain of course, but the first I can remember of actually getting mad at religion enough to try to convince people not to believe was so I could gather people to play road hockey on Sunday's. Of course, it didn't matter what they believed, their parents dragged them anyway, and I was alone most Sundays. Sad

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Quote:I've never discussed

Quote:

I've never discussed this with anyone before, but ironically, it was partially the study of precisely these dictatorships that pushed me to active atheism, and to science as a profession. The fact that it was the study of history that led me to this may seem odd, but let me try to articulate. I first studied modern history in detail at the ages of 15 and 16 and then in more detail at 17. My study focused entirely on the single party states of the 20th century: the USSR, Nazi Germany, Cambodia, China, Japan, Iran and Italy. In the course of my studies, the common link between them that interested me was not atheism (certainly not in the case of Iran or Japan) but anti-intellectualism. Even today, it chills my blood to think about the collective insanity of the Red Guards during the cultural revolution, or the savage and deliberate murder of anyone even remotely suspected of being educated at all in Cambodia. Not all the dictatorships of the 20th century were atheist. Some, like that of the Taliban and that of the Iranian theocracy, are quite the opposite. But if you want something to link the many single party states of the 20th century, look no further than anti-intellectualism. During the course of my study of these dictatorships at 15-17, I was so horrified by the countless examples of collective insanity that gripped people under the barrage of absurd propaganda and groupthink. From the book burnings of Nazi Germany to the denouncement of professional education as bourgeois by the lunatic Red Guards, the deliberate and calculated assault on learning, rationality and thinking in the case studies I encountered made me sick. I swore to myself that I would do everything in my power to inoculate myself against the mass psychology, and to firmly commit myself to the principles of intellectualism and learning. Because I was simultaneously discovering a talent for science and mathematics, the course I embarked on was natural. I had always been atheist, but the study of modern history was a key factor in pushing me toward active dislike and then disgust with religion since it is grounded on the very same corrosive nonsense discussed above.

So, yeah, irony.

While we're here, something funny:

Isn't it cute that you'll often hear about the apparent dangers of an intellectual elite seizing power and 'dogmatically' forcing people to act intelligently? You'll hear the standard rhetoric about Hitler being a misguided genius or Mao being the stern-faced and totally objective yet simply 'too ruthlessly cunning' to be an effective leader; even in contemporary times you'll have people insist, refusing any possible alternative, that Bush was secretly a mad genius all along.

It's obscene bullshit.

Upon anything deeper than a cursory examination based on hearsay, we get a much different picture. Hitler, for example (in keeping with the OP) was, by all accounts, completely insane (likely due to brain damage he recieved via a mustard gas attack). We see that intellectual support is among the very first things destroyed by most totalitarian regimes, that education is often crippled to some extreme extent (if not entirely outlawed) and that tremendous, glaring mistakes and misunderstandings - not intentional acts of destruction - have caused some of the most horrifying tolls of death we've ever seen (there are arguable exceptions in the case of Stalin, who very clearly intended - for example - to enact the Ukrainian genocide. Stalin, however, is himself the exception to rule, as he was - through and through - a clinical sociopath).

For a real case study that is fresh in my mind, Alison and I recently had a heated argument about Enver Hoxha's leadership in Albania, as she argued that he still caused plenty of death and misery even though he enforced policies to encourage secularism and intellectualism. Yet, if we look at what happened in Albania, we see that it was not the policies geared towards the goal of educating people that caused the misery (quite the opposite, in fact: Hoxha's insistence that Albanians become educated and lose their superstitious beliefs resulted in Malaria virtually disappearing from the country and the literacy rate skyrocketing): it was the policies Hoxha implemented that he was utterly wrong about that invoked the horrors. His abolishment of abortions, for example, exacerbated what was to turn into a fod crisis; his silencing of political rivals and illegitimate arrests of clergymen created waves of unrest; his insistence that Marxist communism and Stalinist dictatorship would eventually bear him unattainable fruits eventually disintegrated the economy after it's brief recovery; etc.

While Hoxha certainly did some smart things, it was the stupid things he did that resulting in Albania's binding into a police state and the eventual collapse of 'Hoxhaism'.

 

If we do wind-up killing ourselves off, it will not be because we were 'too smart'. It will be because there were too many stupid people taking advantage of what a few smart people concieved, that they themselves simply couldn't understand fully enough to safely handle.

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
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Quote:and that tremendous,

Quote:

and that tremendous, glaring mistakes and misunderstandings - not intentional acts of destruction - have caused some of the most horrifying tolls of death we've ever seen

This is the thing people forget, and should be highlighted. Of the case studies I examined (in roughly equal weighting of detail), China drew my fascination and horror the most. Before I go on, I must stress that the Chinese Communists, at least in their early years, did many, many things very right. They eradicated some utterly obscene elements of tradiational Chinese society, in particular foot binding, arranged marriages and concubinism. The emancipation of woman in China under the CCP, at least initially, is commendable, and the transformation of China from a backwater, illiterate state to a nuclear power by the 1950s is also a worthy accomplishment. Nonetheless, what would follow these achievements reflects the absurd tragedy of a nation following a man whose ideological principles nearly drove them to total destruction. China from the years 1955 until 1976 was like a theatre of the absurd. If we are to discuss a tragedy where the glaring mistakes and misunderstandings caused horrifying death tolls, as you mentioned, then the pinnacle example would be the Great Leap Forward. The disasterous failure project reflected the combination of two problems: (1) A leader which believed he could achieve the (impossible) goal of industrializing so rapidly that he could overtake the USA within 20 years and (2) the fact that this leader could propose whatever he wished, no matter how absurd, and have it carried out to the letter.

By itself, Mao's desire to catch up with the West as indicated in (1) this may not sound so completely ridiculous, but it was the ideological principles Mao was commited to in the process of achieving this that would ensure it not only failed but resulted in 30 million deaths. The process of creating a technical, industrial society requires the creation of an educated and competent populace with highly specialized skills and technical knowledge and understanding. Mao averted this entirely. China was a 95% peasant based nation at the time. Mao believed that the continuation of Chinese Communism required a firm commitment to the principle that anything could be accomplished solely by virtue of sheer manpower, and that if given sufficient direction, the will and numbers of the peasants could achieve anything. Above all, Mao was loathe to allow for the creation of a technical, trained intellectual class so necessary for an industrialized and modern nation to function. Thus, Mao proceeded with the Great Leap Forward under the pretense that the industrialization process could occur bypassing this entirely. The consequent economic schemes that were proposed in order to accomplish this are so absurd they sound something rather like what an idealistic small child would concoct. Believing steel production figures to be more or less the gauge of a country's economic and industrial strength (and therefore demonstrating no understanding of basic economic principles), Mao's backyard steel campaign attempted to harness the manpower available to him by having countless backyard steel furnaces across the countryside being maintained by the peasants in order to produce as much steel as possible. images of countless backyard steel furnaces dotting the landscape serve to demonstrate what I mean when I say China was nothing less than a theatre of the absurd. Of course the notion is absolutely preposterous. The harvesting of steel for useful economic purposes is a process requiring extensive logistical, technical and refinement capacity which China simply did not have. The utter worthlessness of the project was apparent when virtually all of the pig iron harvested had to be scrapped as useless. The absurdity of the industrial schemes was paralleled only by the astounding lack of judgement applied to the agricultural ones. The utter dismissal of any rigorous grounding in the science of agriculture and the resutling famine served as a terrible demonstration of what happened when a nation happily rejected the principles of technical understanding and knowledge. A ridiculous scheme where people in communes around the country would eliminate the scourge of pidgeons by spending hours a day making a racket with pots and pans, so the pidgeons could not land, resulting in millions of them dying, resulting in the widepsread proliferation of insects and pests and the destruction of much of the harvest, and famous images of fertilizer packed so thick that children could stand on it indicate that the whole country was in the grip of a man who could propose something, no matter how ridiculous, and have it carried out as law with the utmost seriousness.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Rich Woods
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Not fer Nuthin'...But if

Not fer Nuthin'...But if nothing else,  those Nazis were snappy dressers.


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deludedgod wrote:Many of

deludedgod wrote:

Many of them said what their experiences had taught them was that in the right situation, completely ordinary people could become the worst of sadists. Part of the reason this occurred was because Nazi Germany was a place where, really, if you were a member of a group like the SS or the Einsatzgruppen then there weren't any moral restrictions on anything. These groups could do whatever they wished, whether "whatever they wished" was having 30 million Soviet citizens starve to death in forced labour or use patients from mental institutions to test gas chambers. There was no accountability in Nazi Germany.

Loyalty to the tribe is more important.

Another point is that the Jewish religion helped created the tribalism atmosphere. The Jewish religious leaders taught the flock that they were superior because they were the 'chosen' people of God. Every action has an opposite reaction, so you had the Germanic 'chosen' people myth in response to the Jewish myth. Also, their religion convinced them that God would protect his people as he did in the Old Testament. Yahweh didn't do shit to stop the Holocaust, what a surprise.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen