How to Blow Your Brains Out When Thinking About Science

Wonderist
atheist
Wonderist's picture
Posts: 2479
Joined: 2006-03-19
User is offlineOffline
How to Blow Your Brains Out When Thinking About Science

There's this incredibly annoying radio program on CBC Radio 1 called 'How to Think About Science'. I started tuning into it when driving here and there, because I'm very interested in various kinds of science programming, especially ones that promote and teach basic science thinking (such as the much more respectable show 'Quirks and Quarks' hosted by Bob McDonald).

Unfortunately, they never seem to have real scientists on this program. They have historians of science, philosophers of science, critics of science, etc. And for some strange reason, you never actually hear what science is all about: Evidence, predictions, hypotheses vs. theories, new discoveries, peer review, etc. It seems that, for some strange reason, all the guests are in some way against science. They complain about the 'institution' of science, the 'orthodoxy' of science, the 'bias' of science, etc.

And tonight was the kicker. They had on a true quack. A real live pseudo-scientist. And they gave him the whole hour, unchallenged, even supported, by the interviewer (David Cayley). The quack was Rupert Sheldrake, who proposes the idea of morphogenetic fields and morphic resonance, the idea that organisms develop not due to genetics, epigenetics, and environmental factors, but because they are surrounded and embedded in mysterious 'fields' that magically shape them into what they are to become.

He pulled out all the stops. Science is a religion, with a dogma and a priesthood, and a mythology. The evidence for his morphic ideas *abounds*, but the conspiracy of 'mainstram' science won't let him publish. Scientific materialism is evil and leads to people becoming unfeeling robots who kill animals without remorse or sympathy. Blah blah blah.

I couldn't believe this crap was being spewed across the airwaves by the CBC, who is ostensibly supposed to be promoting the public good, presumably by helping people understand science. Public tax money is spent on this misleading, deceptive, and damaging misinformation.

Seriously, WTF!?!

This is what we're up against. A concerted effort to turn the public against science and evidence-based reasoning. It's a kind of propaganda. Dare I say a 'religion', at the risk of people misunderstanding me and calling me a hypocrite.

I blame the post-modernists, the new-ageists, the 'spiritual' people. But most of all, I blame what I call Consumptionism, which is an umbrella term for things like run-amok captialism, corporatism, consumerism, authoritarianism, nationalism, religion, etc. All the ideologies that, at their foundation, are based on driving humans to need more and more and more, without end.

It is really Consumptionism that the anti-materialists are against. In their minds they have equated science with all those destructive ideologies. Science is not just a way of knowing for them. In fact, they don't really understand how science helps us know anything at all. They don't really get science. So, instead, they see it as a weapon of domination and control that is wielded by powers greater than themselves. They see it as an ideology of its own that dehumanizes people and turns them into unfeeling machines who become slaves to the bigger Machine.

For them, science is something to defeat, so we can go back to our more harmonious tribal ways. This is their myth. And so they develop radio programs to try to defuse, deconstruct, and demolish science. And they call it 'How to Think About Science'. And they inadvertently lead the public away from the one tool that they *need* to defend themselves from Consumptionism and its dogmas.

Anyway, I needed to vent.

Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!

Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
Quote:And tonight was the

Quote:

And tonight was the kicker. They had on a true quack. A real live pseudo-scientist. And they gave him the whole hour, unchallenged, even supported, by the interviewer (David Cayley). The quack was Rupert Sheldrake, who proposes the idea of morphogenetic fields and morphic resonance, the idea that organisms develop not due to genetics, epigenetics, and environmental factors, but because they are surrounded and embedded in mysterious 'fields' that magically shape them into what they are to become.

He pulled out all the stops. Science is a religion, with a dogma and a priesthood, and a mythology. The evidence for his morphic ideas *abounds*, but the conspiracy of 'mainstram' science won't let him publish. Scientific materialism is evil and leads to people becoming unfeeling robots who kill animals without remorse or sympathy. Blah blah blah.

I've heard of that guy. No molecular or developmental biologist takes him seriously. Why not? Well...

Sheldrake wrote:

The instructors [at university] said that all morphenogenesis is genetically programmed. They said different species just follow the instruction in their genes. But a few moments' reflection show that this reply is inadequate. All the cells of the body contain the same genes. In your body, the same genetic program is present in your eye cells, liver cells and the cells in your arms. The ones in your legs. But if they are all programmed identically, how do they develop so differently?

This quote is so ridiculous it's hard to believe this man attended Harvard. The molecular basis for cell differentiation in the context of the fact that all cells in an organism, regardless of their differentiation during embryonic development, retain the same genome is well known. In fact, I included a short section on it here: The Third Revolution

Quote:

All of the general principles discussed thus far pertain to all cells. However, multicellular organisms are composed of different types of cells with different phenotypes. What exactly do we mean by different types of cells? By now it should be very clear. It has been stressed time and time again that a cell is determined entirely by the proteins present within it, which is why that particular thing is in the end what is being controlled by the vast regulatory pathways present in the cell.  Thus different cell types are determined by different gene expression patterns. This is in fact the solution to a puzzle that had confounded biologists for some time. During the embryonic development of a multicellular organism, the central process is that of differentiation in which cells develop into their distinct phenotypes. Biologists initially thought that during the developmental process, cells undergoing differentiation selectively lost sequences of genes so as to gain distinct transcription patterns, but this is wrong. It was experimentally verified that all cells within a multicellular organism regardless of their phenotypic differentiation contain the same genome. Thus the process of cellular differentiation depends on the alteration of gene expression patterns so as to create unique complements of proteins in particular cell types. In most cell types, approximately 20,000 of the 30,000 proteins in the human genome are expressed. The particular proteins which are expressed, and their levels of expression, thus determine the cell type under discussion. Previously, we have discussed how the gene regulatory pathways create distinct gene expression patterns but what was perhaps not stressed enough is that many of these patterns are permanent, and not just permanent to the cell being differentiated, but also to the cells created once that cell duplicates. In this way, particular gene expression patterns can be preserved through generations, despite the fact that the initial extracellular signal which caused them occurred a long time, even years ago. This is the fundamental concept of cell memory. Thus, the general principle we must understand is that the permanent process of cellular differentiation occurs because initial transient extracellular signals can induce permanent alterations in the gene expression patterns of particular cells which can then be passed onto progeny.

The mechanisms by which cells do remember expression patterns are too numerous and complex to elucidate fully here, but like everything else in molecular biology, they do obey the general principles we have already talked about. A very simple example will suffice here. Suppose a particular protein serves as a gene regulatory protein to regulate its own synthesis in a positive feedback loop. In other words, suppose for example that the promoter region of this gene cannot allow the RNA polymerase to initiate transcription without the presence of the gene regulatory protein which is being coded for by the very sequence under discussion. Thus, under normal circumstances, this protein will not be part of the gene expression pattern, since it requires itself to initiate its own transcription. But once a transient extracellular signal allows the transcription of this protein to proceed, it will continue to maintain its own expression long after that signal has dissipated. Not only that, it will maintain its own expression in the daughter cells of the initial cells once that cell has duplicated because the proteins present are inherited during duplication. This rudimentary example of cell memory is a ubiquitous mechanism by which cells differentiate.

This rudimentary example however does not by itself do justice to the ingenuity of differentiation, because cell differentiation incorporates the processes of signal transduction and combinatorial control in a very clever way. Recall that combinations of gene regulatory proteins could serve to regulate the expression patterns of certain genes. Thus, the introduction of gene regulatory proteins to some cells but not others is a principle mechanism by which cells are differentiated by virtue of position. Let us suppose we have two clusters of cells A and B which are initially identical. Now suppose that cluster A is in a region of high concentration of a particular gene regulatory protein and cluster B is not, such that the GRP is inducted into the cells of cluster A and is responsible for the transcription of particular genes which will not be present in cluster B. Those genes in turn could code for gene regulatory proteins which in turn could, by means of combinatorial control, serve to give rise to distinct expression patterns that cluster A will possess and cluster B will not. Of course we could keep going and suppose that some of the gene regulatory proteins coded for by the genes activated by the proteins which were initially activated by the initially inducted GRP are themselves gene regulatory proteins and so on. We are witnessing the power of combinatorial control to propagate expression patterns because combinatorial control allows for individual gene regulatory proteins to propagate large scale alterations in the cell’s expression pattern. This is not just hypothetical. This is in fact the mechanism by which an entire organ (the eye) is formed.

The above diagram shows how clever this mechanism is. If we begin with distinct cell clusters only one of which has a particular GRP introduced, then within one generation we will have two distinct expression patterns resulting from the induction of the GRP, and we have seen above that this GRP, by means of combinatorial control, could by itself introduce a major alteration in the expression pattern of cells into which it is inducted. Now suppose that a new GRP is introduced into the daughter cells of both distinct generations of cells that arose after the initial induction of GRP 1. In this case it is clear that we will have four distinct expression patterns, and continuing this argument, with another GRP introduced to the daughter cells of all four cells of generation 3 will result in eight distinct expression patterns, all because the initial clusters differed by the introduction of a single GRP! This demonstrates the power of the combinatorial control process, and is a reason that combinatorial control has been and still is critical in the evolution of multicellular organisms. I use "still is" because evolution is of course an ongoing process.

This is very common knowledge today. At the time of his study, perhaps it was a fair question (although certainly not an argument for morphic fields). Now, however, for him to continue to maintain this position is ridiculous.

EDIT: I just noticed the following

Quote:

the quack was Rupert Sheldrake, who proposes the idea of morphogenetic fields and morphic resonance,

This is not quite right. Morphic fields is the pseudoscience Sheldrake proposes. A Morphogenetic field is a real concept in real developmental biology which refers to regions of localized embryonic cells to respond to region-specific induction of gene regulatory proteins. In fact, it's what I just discussed above.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


Wonderist
atheist
Wonderist's picture
Posts: 2479
Joined: 2006-03-19
User is offlineOffline
deludedgod wrote:This is

deludedgod wrote:

This is very common knowledge today. At the time of his study, perhaps it was a fair question (although certainly not an argument for morphic fields). Now, however, for him to continue to maintain this position is ridiculous.

Much worse, DG, is for a national (Canadian) radio program to have him on as a guest for an entire hour in a show proclaiming 'how to think about science', and leave his claims unchallenged. I don't mind a quack and his quacky ideas. I mind that they are being promoted with no critique at all.

Quote:
EDIT: I just noticed the following

Quote:

the quack was Rupert Sheldrake, who proposes the idea of morphogenetic fields and morphic resonance,

This is not quite right. Morphic fields is the pseudoscience Sheldrake proposes. A Morphogenetic field is a real concept in real developmental biology which refers to regions of localized embryonic cells to respond to region-specific induction of gene regulatory proteins. In fact, it's what I just discussed above.

Sheldrake proposes that it is an *actual* field, like an electromagnetic field, a mysterious force that is not related to gene regulation. He is not using it as a figure of speech. You can equate it to the new-ager's use of 'energy' to describe their nonsense. Yes, 'energy' exists in physics, but when a new-ager uses energy, they're talking about something mystical and mysterious, not actual energy as physicists understand it.

Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!

Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!


Kevin R Brown
Superfan
Kevin R Brown's picture
Posts: 3142
Joined: 2007-06-24
User is offlineOffline
I just sent CBC an e-mail

I just sent CBC an e-mail about it and would recommend you do the same, natural.

 

Most of their programming I really enjoy... I hadn't heard of this garbage before.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
Quote:Much worse, DG, is for

Quote:

Much worse, DG, is for a national (Canadian) radio program to have him on as a guest for an entire hour in a show proclaiming 'how to think about science', and leave his claims unchallenged. I don't mind a quack and his quacky ideas. I mind that they are being promoted with no critique at all.

Ugh. I would not expect this sort of garbage to proliferate in my home country. I thought we were smarter than that.

Wait, I thought you were in Prague.

Quote:

Sheldrake proposes that it is an *actual* field, like an electromagnetic field, a mysterious force that is not related to gene regulation. He is not using it as a figure of speech. You can equate it to the new-ager's use of 'energy' to describe their nonsense. Yes, 'energy' exists in physics, but when a new-ager uses energy, they're talking about something mystical and mysterious, not actual energy as physicists understand it.

I understand all this. I'm just saying that morphogenetic field should be carefully distinguished from the ridiculous idea of a "morphic field". The former is a real term which comes up in devolopmental biology. The latter is the idea Sheldrake proposes. They are not the same thing.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


Kevin R Brown
Superfan
Kevin R Brown's picture
Posts: 3142
Joined: 2007-06-24
User is offlineOffline
Quote:I'm just saying that

Quote:
I'm just saying that morphogenetic field should be carefully distinguished from the ridiculous idea of a "morphic field". The former is a real term which comes up in devolopmental biology. The latter is the idea Sheldrake proposes. They are not the same thing.

The confusion is something the program and/or Sheldrake is creating, then:

CBC wrote:
Sheldrake suggested, some sort of form-giving field that holds the memory of each thing’s proper shape – he called it a morphogenetic field. This intriguing idea was widely discussed in the months after the book’s publication.

 

*Sigh*

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
If Sheldrake has taken a

If Sheldrake has taken a real scientific term from a discipline whose entire existence actively opposes his nonsense (and where that term itself refers to a concept directly refuting what he proposes) and then altered the meaning of the term entirely so as to refer to what he is talking about, then...well, I'd comment on it, but the bile in the tip of my throat is making it hard to think of a suitable word.

Quote:

This intriguing idea was widely discussed in the months after the book’s publication.

Intriguing? What a joke. It took years to discover the gene regulatory basis behind embryonic differentiation on the basis of generation of distinct transcription patterns that I just outlined above. That's fucking intriguing. Not this meaningless and superfluous nonsense. Given that Sheldrake's book was published after these discoveries,  and therefore he was attempting to solve a problem which existed only in his head, I utterly fail to see how this could be described as intriguing.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


Wonderist
atheist
Wonderist's picture
Posts: 2479
Joined: 2006-03-19
User is offlineOffline
Kevin R Brown wrote:I just

Kevin R Brown wrote:

I just sent CBC an e-mail about it and would recommend you do the same, natural.

Thanks for that, Kevin. You actually motivated me to go through with it. I sent email both to the show and to the CBC general complaints feedback form.

I guess I really don't expect anything to come of it. Maybe I'm being pessimistic. It's worth a try anyway, right? It kind of makes me feel hopeless when a big entity like the CBC has been broadcasting this show for months and it's been steadily anti-science the whole way. How do you fight the machine, when you're just one small voice? Speaking out is kind of daunting when you do it alone, but when someone else understands and is on my side, it really helps. So, thanks again. Smiling

Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!

Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!


Wonderist
atheist
Wonderist's picture
Posts: 2479
Joined: 2006-03-19
User is offlineOffline
deludedgod wrote:Quote:This

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

This intriguing idea was widely discussed in the months after the book’s publication.

Intriguing? What a joke. It took years to discover the gene regulatory basis behind embryonic differentiation on the basis of generation of distinct transcription patterns that I just outlined above. That's fucking intriguing. Not this meaningless and superfluous nonsense. Given that Sheldrake's book was published after these discoveries,  and therefore he was attempting to solve a problem which existed only in his head, I utterly fail to see how this could be described as intriguing.

If that one little quote from the show's website bugs you, then do yourself a favour and *don't* listen to the show itself. Imagine sitting through a whole hour of such platitudinous double-speak. 'Infuriating' barely describes it. You'd probably go through the roof.

Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!

Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!


Wonderist
atheist
Wonderist's picture
Posts: 2479
Joined: 2006-03-19
User is offlineOffline
deludedgod wrote:Wait, I

deludedgod wrote:

Wait, I thought you were in Prague.

I moved back to Canada about a year and a half ago after I had my mental breakdown and could no longer work (which was actually probably the best thing that could have happened to me, mental-health-wise). I spent about 4 years there prior to that.

Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!

Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!


Kevin R Brown
Superfan
Kevin R Brown's picture
Posts: 3142
Joined: 2007-06-24
User is offlineOffline
Quote:I guess I really don't

Quote:
I guess I really don't expect anything to come of it. Maybe I'm being pessimistic. It's worth a try anyway, right? It kind of makes me feel hopeless when a big entity like the CBC has been broadcasting this show for months and it's been steadily anti-science the whole way. How do you fight the machine, when you're just one small voice? Speaking out is kind of daunting when you do it alone, but when someone else understands and is on my side, it really helps. So, thanks again.

Oh, no - you're likely correct. They probably won't do anything about it in the immediate future.

 

In my opinion, the important part of e-mailing in complaints about content is that it gets the documentation in circulation. Maybe CBCs current producers will just laugh it off or not even bother to open the messages - but somebody at the CBC probably shares our opinion on the program, and by sending-in complaints we provide that somebody with ammunition if they ever go to the management and say, 'Okay - we've got ourselves a problem'; there's a big difference between showing-up in the boss's office with only your own thoughts on the matter and showing-up in the boss's office with a thick stack of gripes from listeners backing you up.

So, before you just surrender to hesitation rather than sending-in a complaint about something like this (even if you have every reason to think you'll be initially ignored), remember:

Documentation is a lethal weapon against fraud. It's what put Kent Hovind behind bars and it's what won the Dover trial, and it was (very tragically) a lack of it that prevented Lisa McPherson's death from meeting any justice (just imagine, if you will, how much differently things would've gone for the Church of Scientology if the judge had been handed the mountain of complaints and testimonies that now drift around the internet. He'd have thrown the book at them). Don't think of it in terms of just filing a complaint - think of it as leaving evidence that can be referenced in the future that there was dissent against what is being done.

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13254
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Perhaps this is further

Perhaps this is further backlash from the Palin incident. I know CBC started to make a large effort around that time to "widen" their opinion columns. Maybe that's gone to radio too.

I ask everyone to send CBC a letter complaining about this bullshit. Religious programming calling science a religion is one thing. Public programming doing the same is unacceptable.

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Wonderist
atheist
Wonderist's picture
Posts: 2479
Joined: 2006-03-19
User is offlineOffline
Got a response from the host

Got a response from the host of the show, David Cayley:

Quote:
Thanks for your letter.  You are one of several people who have objected to our including Rupert Sheldrake in our series “How To Think About Science.”   A rough summary of the arguments these listeners have put forward is as follows: Rupert Sheldrake is not a real scientist but rather a pseudo-scientist; Sheldrake has no evidence for his hypothesis; my presentation of Sheldrake’s ideas was inappropriately “supportive”; Ideas should not be presenting the ideas of such a person and certainly not “unopposed.”
 
Here is my response: “How To Think About Science” was a series of 24 broadcasts which canvassed a wide variety of views about what sort of enterprise science is.  The series was not called “How To Do Science” or even “What is Science?”  Rather the title referred to the changes that have occurred in the last couple of generations in how many people think about science.  A comprehensive treatment of such a theme would be impossible.  No attempt was made to disguise the partial and personal nature of my inquiry.  I interviewed people whom I had read, and whose ideas I found interesting. 
All the interviews in the series were “supportive” in the sense that what I was trying to do was to expound the ideas of the person(s) featured in each programme.  In that sense, everyone in the series spoke “unopposed.”  There was no intention to endorse anyone’s ideas.
 
What was the justification for including Sheldrake?  Well, Rupert Sheldrake is a properly trained and qualified plant physiologist who began his career doing “real” scientific research in developmental biology, and then, in the early 80’s, published a book that argued that only a field hypothesis could account for the discrepancy between the sketchiness of the genetic information from which creatures begin and the elaborate and complex forms they eventually attain.  This book initially provoked a lot of public discussion, and was then roundly denounced by the editor of Nature – a denunciation whose sequellae have shaped Sheldrake’s career ever since.  Sheldrake believes that he was excommunicated from the church of science, and, in the broadcast I presented, he gives evidence for his belief that science can be a dogmatic and church-like institution.  Likewise he gives evidence for his field theory of morphogenesis – a theory which he has continued to advance, and to try to test in the years since A New Science of Life first appeared.
 
I think this is an interesting, and potentially revealing story.  Certainly the vehemence of some of the responses I received indicate that there are people who strenuously object to Rupert Sheldrake presenting himself, or being presented by the CBC as a scientist.  In that sense I don’t think it can be denied that the case of Rupert Sheldrake indicates where the boundaries of science are currently drawn, at least by those to whom I am now responding.  And yet Sheldrake has a proper scientific training, he has put forward a hypothesis that might be true, and he has presented evidence in favour of his theory.  Of course the hypothesis might be non-sense, and the evidence might be wrong.  Other people who spoke in the series might also be wrong.  Most scientific theories are wrong sooner or later.  All I want to say here is that I find Sheldrake’s theory interesting;  I don’t see why the evidence he presents for it, whether its McDougall’s puzzling rat trials or blue tits siphoning the cream off milk bottles, should be dismissed out of hand; and I think the history of the reception of his theory says something about what many insiders think that science is and is not.  That is my justification for including him among the diverse voices that I presented in this series.
 
If anyone who wrote is unaware of the full scope of the series, I would suggest a visit to the show’s web-page at cbc.ca/idea under features.
 
Sincerely yours,
 
David Cayley

Well, apparently the series was limited to 24 episodes and is now in repeats (I'm guessing here), so there's not likely to be any influence on further programming.

Cayley is unaware of the depth of the critique I made. I was not simply backlashing against Sheldrake. He was just the last straw. My critique was more about the lack of understanding of science and the resulting anti-science bias that showed up in show after show. This reply of his just further demonstrates the problem: "I don’t see why the evidence he presents for it, whether its McDougall’s puzzling rat trials or blue tits siphoning the cream off milk bottles, should be dismissed out of hand;" That's just the point, isn't it? Cayley doesn't understand how science works, and so he cannot understand how scientists could reject Sheldrake's anecdotal evidence so easily. After all, it's at least superficially convincing to Cayley; enough to have an hour long program on it anyway.

Furthermore Cayley opines: "and I think the history of the reception of his theory says something about what many insiders think that science is and is not." Yes. It does. It shows that many people do not understand science. It shows that many people have a backwards view of it, like it's a religion or a dogma or something. And my point is that his show does not do *anything* to correct that misunderstanding, and, worse, perpetuates it.

Nowhere in this reply does Cayley refer to peer review or hypothesis prediction and testing, which are obvious concepts relevant to Sheldrake's claims. This is symptomatic of the entire series. Obvious concepts relevant to science are completely undiscussed, as if science had no clue how to tell truth from nonsense.

Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!

Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
May we see the original

May we see the original letter you wrote to which he responded?

Quote:

argued that only a field hypothesis could account for the discrepancy between the sketchiness of the genetic information from which creatures begin and the elaborate and complex forms they eventually attain.  This book initially provoked a lot of public discussion, and was then roundly denounced by the editor of Nature – a denu

This is complete madness! The genetic information constituting any organism is not "sketchy"! It is sufficient to specify the developmental plan of the organism and the permanent transcription patterns of cells,and their responses to external signals! We've known this for years and all fruitful research in developmental biology has proceeded from a firm genetical understanding of cellular differentiation. How on earth can Mr. Cayley have the sheer gall to claim that the genetic information constituting an organism is "sketchy" when he does not actually understand in any depth whatsoever the relationship between genotype and phenotype the processes of gene regulation and the principles of developmental genetics?

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


Wonderist
atheist
Wonderist's picture
Posts: 2479
Joined: 2006-03-19
User is offlineOffline
deludedgod wrote:May we see

deludedgod wrote:

May we see the original letter you wrote to which he responded?

I didn't keep a copy of it. It was basically a cleaned up and toned-down version of my original post. I removed some of the more ranty stuff.

Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!

Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13254
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
I wonder also what the

I wonder also what the address was that you sent it to. Was it CBC itself, or his personal address, or to him through CBC, or what?

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Wonderist
atheist
Wonderist's picture
Posts: 2479
Joined: 2006-03-19
User is offlineOffline
I used the website's form.

I used the website's form. There was a contact form on the show's page, and also a contact form for the general CBC feedback. I used both. That's actually the reason I don't have a copy, since I didn't specifically save it.

If you want Cayley's email, I have it now, but I decided not to publish it here for the sake of not exposing him to spam. I can post it in the superfan forum if you want it.

Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!

Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!


HisWillness
atheistRational VIP!
HisWillness's picture
Posts: 4100
Joined: 2008-02-21
User is offlineOffline
deludedgod wrote:This is

deludedgod wrote:

This is complete madness!

Let's be honest, it's basically Sparta.

deludedgod wrote:
The genetic information constituting any organism is not "sketchy"!

Here we go again. You with all your "information" and "knowledge" ruining a perfectly good "show".

This is what really bothers me about giving both "sides" equal air time. On one side, we have people who have been working really hard at finding out specific and precise knowledge about the world we live in, and on the other side, we have babbling. Pure speculation about whatever-the-fuck-they-want, and somehow it's valid because they're being oppressed by the editor of Nature. Can we blame post-modernism for overblowing the "I'm okay, you're okay" message, and by making everything intensely meaningful, thus robbing everything of meaning?

No, I think it's simpler than that. It's easier to be ignorant, so the "side" we're giving air time to is laziness. "It's okay to be lazy and have an opinion on shit you know nothing about" is the order of the day. Hell, when people's attention span is 30 seconds long, how could things go any differently?

deludedgod wrote:
How on earth can Mr. Cayley have the sheer gall to claim that the genetic information constituting an organism is "sketchy" when he does not actually understand in any depth whatsoever the relationship between genotype and phenotype the processes of gene regulation and the principles of developmental genetics?

Because it's the Age of Righteous Laziness. As Cayley's response shows, it is widely accepted that providing a forum for the terminally ignorant is totally fine because we're all entitled to our opinion, and everything's groovy.

Fucking hippies. The rest of us grew out of that rebelling-against-our-parents shit before we reached middle age. Yes, we know your parents were hard-asses, but seriously, guys, you have to let it go. Your children had to raise themselves because of this laissez faire shit.

 

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13254
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
natural wrote:I used the

natural wrote:

I used the website's form. There was a contact form on the show's page, and also a contact form for the general CBC feedback. I used both. That's actually the reason I don't have a copy, since I didn't specifically save it.

If you want Cayley's email, I have it now, but I decided not to publish it here for the sake of not exposing him to spam. I can post it in the superfan forum if you want it.

No, that's ok. I was simply curious as to why he himself responded. Thanks. Smiling

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Kevin R Brown
Superfan
Kevin R Brown's picture
Posts: 3142
Joined: 2007-06-24
User is offlineOffline
Vastet: He didn't.Quote:Dear

Vastet: He didn't.

Quote:

Dear Kevin Brown,  

Thanks for your letter.  You are one of several people who have objected to our including Rupert Sheldrake in our series “How To Think About Science.”   A rough summary of the arguments these listeners have put forward is as follows: Rupert Sheldrake is not a real scientist but rather a pseudo-scientist; Sheldrake has no evidence for his hypothesis; my presentation of Sheldrake’s ideas was inappropriately “supportive”; Ideas should not be presenting the ideas of such a person and certainly not “unopposed.”

 

Here is my response: “How To Think About Science” was a series of 24 broadcasts which canvassed a wide variety of views about what sort of enterprise science is.  The series was not called “How To Do Science” or even “What is Science?”  Rather the title referred to the changes that have occurred in the last couple of generations in how many people think about science.  A comprehensive treatment of such a theme would be impossible.  No attempt was made to disguise the partial and personal nature of my inquiry.  I interviewed people whom I had read, and whose ideas I found interesting. 

All the interviews in the series were “supportive” in the sense that what I was trying to do was to expound the ideas of the person(s) featured in each programme.  In that sense, everyone in the series spoke “unopposed.”  There was no intention to endorse anyone’s ideas.

 

What was the justification for including Sheldrake?  Well, Rupert Sheldrake is a properly trained and qualified plant physiologist who began his career doing “real” scientific research in developmental biology, and then, in the early 80’s, published a book that argued that only a field hypothesis could account for the discrepancy between the sketchiness of the genetic information from which creatures begin and the elaborate and complex forms they eventually attain.  This book initially provoked a lot of public discussion, and was then roundly denounced by the editor of Nature – a denunciation whose sequellae have shaped Sheldrake’s career ever since.  Sheldrake believes that he was excommunicated from the church of science, and, in the broadcast I presented, he gives evidence for his belief that science can be a dogmatic and church-like institution.  Likewise he gives evidence for his field theory of morphogenesis – a theory which he has continued to advance, and to try to test in the years since A New Science of Life first appeared.

 

I think this is an interesting, and potentially revealing story.  Certainly the vehemence of some of the responses I received indicate that there are people who strenuously object to Rupert Sheldrake presenting himself, or being presented by the CBC as a scientist.  In that sense I don’t think it can be denied that the case of Rupert Sheldrake indicates where the boundaries of science are currently drawn, at least by those to whom I am now responding.  And yet Sheldrake has a proper scientific training, he has put forward a hypothesis that might be true, and he has presented evidence in favour of his theory.  Of course the hypothesis might be non-sense, and the evidence might be wrong.  Other people who spoke in the series might also be wrong.  Most scientific theories are wrong sooner or later.  All I want to say here is that I find Sheldrake’s theory interesting;  I don’t see why the evidence he presents for it, whether its McDougall’s puzzling rat trials or blue tits siphoning the cream off milk bottles, should be dismissed out of hand; and I think the history of the reception of his theory says something about what many insiders think that science is and is not.  That is my justification for including him among the diverse voices that I presented in this series.

 

If anyone who wrote is unaware of the full scope of the series, I would suggest a visit to the show’s web-page at cbc.ca/idea under features.

 

Sincerely yours,

 

David Cayley

 

No joke. I got exactly the same response. It's some sort of automated response letter.

 

Cute, right?

 

 

Natural, do you know if there's a transcript of the show available? I'd like to read it. Who wants to bet that Sheldrake lies through his teeth about what happened between himself and Maddox?

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13254
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Oh, I'm sure he did write

Oh, I'm sure he did write it. That it was duplicated to the power of x does not at all surprise me, that's the kind of person this is. I'm quite sure he wrote it once, sent it to all the people who told him off, and then made it his auto-reply for anything related to that argument, thinking in his own mind that he addressed every concern there was to address. I'll be very interested when CBC itself addresses the issue, if it does.

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Wonderist
atheist
Wonderist's picture
Posts: 2479
Joined: 2006-03-19
User is offlineOffline
Kevin R Brown wrote:No joke.

Kevin R Brown wrote:


No joke. I got exactly the same response. It's some sort of automated response letter.

His comments in the response seem pretty tightly targeted at the comments I made and other RRS folks are likely to have made. I wouldn't be surprised if suddenly getting 5 or so feedback letters basically saying the same thing would cause him to write a quick form letter reply to them all at once, rather than individually.

Quote:

Natural, do you know if there's a transcript of the show available? I'd like to read it. Who wants to bet that Sheldrake lies through his teeth about what happened between himself and Maddox?

The closest I got is the streaming .ram: http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/features/science/index.html#episode9

I did some minor checking, his account of it is clearly playing it up, as if Maddox was some nutjob dogmatic bigot, when really he was just expressing frustration. However, his quote about 'heresy' is accurate, which I was surprised to find. I wonder if Maddox was being tongue-in-cheek or just made a poor analogy.

Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!

Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!


Kevin R Brown
Superfan
Kevin R Brown's picture
Posts: 3142
Joined: 2007-06-24
User is offlineOffline
Ah.  Some lies are just a

Ah.

 

Some lies are just a layer deeper than usual. Maddox really did step over the line with his comment, taking what I would call a dogmatic stance; however, Sheldrake gives the impression that Maddox remains the editor of Nature, in order to discredit the magazine by association.

 

Maddox hasn't been the editor of Nature since nineteen-ninety-freakin'-five!

 

Oh, and here's a fun one, in case you might've thought, "Well, maybe Sheldrake has some measure of credibility..." in light of Maddox's harsh denouncement:

 

Sheldrake gives the impression on the show that Maddox was talking about his 'morphic fields', and denounced him while rejecting a paper he submitted (well, actually, to add some further confusion to the matter, they keep referring to them as 'morphogenetic fields'). In reality? Maddox printed his comments in an editorial in Nature, and they were with regards not strictly to Sheldrake's morphic fields concept, but a whole body of booksthat Sheldrake had indpendently published as pop-culture 'science' literature - including Dogs That Know When Their Owners are Coming Home, in which Sheldrake alleges to have 'proven' that dogs are - yes - telepathic.

 

I think Maddox's problem was simply that he was just one or two age brackets too many to be so impolite as to joint point and break-out into hysterical laughter.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


HisWillness
atheistRational VIP!
HisWillness's picture
Posts: 4100
Joined: 2008-02-21
User is offlineOffline
 Maddox also has a point,

 Maddox also has a point, and it's one that many of us here have made:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRjQmZLT8bI

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


Kevin R Brown
Superfan
Kevin R Brown's picture
Posts: 3142
Joined: 2007-06-24
User is offlineOffline
Actually, I don't agree with

Actually, I don't agree with him that we should be using the same language as was used to condemn Galileo by the Pope of his era. I understand Maddox's core point and completely agree (duh) that introducing magic as science will only ever retard progress, and I think what he meant by suggesting that we could dismiss Sheldrake's ideas as 'heresy' is that they clash with scientific epistemology (making them less than worthless) - but heresy was still a poor choice of word. Science is not a formal orthodoxy and 'morphic fields' are excluded from it based on their lack of merit, not simply because they overturn the proverbial apple cart.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


HisWillness
atheistRational VIP!
HisWillness's picture
Posts: 4100
Joined: 2008-02-21
User is offlineOffline
Kevin R Brown wrote:but

Kevin R Brown wrote:

but heresy was still a poor choice of word. Science is not a formal orthodoxy and 'morphic fields' are excluded from it based on their lack of merit, not simply because they overturn the proverbial apple cart.

It's clear, though, when you watch/listen to him say it, that he's well aware of the context in which he's using the language. His use of the word is emphatic, and not dogmatic in the sense that he believes in an absolute truth. He's just making a subtle point to a television audience, without the benefit of being able to see how it will be edited.

He was, however, critical of "liberal society" in the same sense that I disparage postmodernism, so maybe I have a soft spot for the old man.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


Kevin R Brown
Superfan
Kevin R Brown's picture
Posts: 3142
Joined: 2007-06-24
User is offlineOffline
Quote:It's clear, though,

Quote:
It's clear, though, when you watch/listen to him say it, that he's well aware of the context in which he's using the language. His use of the word is emphatic

That's a fair point, even if I dislike the word used.

 

Actually, the editorial piece - 'A Book For Burning?' - is just such an excellent, eloquent ripping of Sheldrake's bullshit that perhaps I'm just disappointed that this soundbyte has been married to it. Contrary to what Sheldrake claims in order to play the martyr, Maddox was not actually suggesting that his books should be burned. Rather, he talked at some length about the various invaluable tomes containing such a wealth of knowledge that have been barbeque'd in the past, asking the reader to consider why it is that, typically, our best resources for knowledge are what suffer at the end of a torch while nonsense dreck like Sheldrake's books tend to be lauded and defended.

Excellent, thought-provoking opinion piece.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940