Subconscious Atheists
Offline One of my closest friends loves philosophy. He loves the idea of determinism (the non-religious concept) and doubts that we have free will. He is pro-choice, pro-gay marriage and very liberal minded about drugs, sex and "morality". He is wickedly smart and has fascinating ideas about psychology and what makes people the way they are.
Yet my friend is Jewish, and believes in god. I have had arguments with him many times, where he'll defend his position for awhile, but then laugh and sort of blow it off or say I "don't get it" when I argue him into a corner. He was indoctrinated into Judaism by his parents, and religion was a special thing for him growing up. He feels spiritually is important and understands why it's important to others.
He also thinks Christians are generally full of shit.
Often, I think...you know, deep down, he probably doesn't believe. It's just so hard-wired into him that he can't shake it, topped off with the fact that it represents good memories and connection with friends and family.
More people than we think know "the truth" about theism. I call them subconscious atheists, or people who either claim agnosticism, are "on the fence" or say they believe in god when their thinking patterns and opinions point to the contrary.
Know anyone like that?
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
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I don't get this, how can somebody's opinions or thinking patterns contradict that they believe in God?
I think that many people here went through such a "believing but not really believing" phase.
What intelligent religious people often do is compartimentalize: there is the "logical world" on the one hand, and the "spiritual world" on the other. And never the twain shall meet... or shall they
Also, logic is interesting, but religion is comforting (and, of course, desirable for "social purposes" ).
Anyway, I made it a habit not to push the "closet atheists" I know too much, even if I tease them from time to time- they derive peace of mind from their beliefs, and the odds of them ever becomin religious nutcases appear to be very, very small indeed.
And also, sometimes I am a little jealous of them: sometimes I would like to not have to be honest to myself when working out my own problems. For example, whith irrational thoughts along the line of "nobody likes me", the best way to deal with it is, of course, challenging it (the whole "is this a realistic thought" thing). But just dismissing it with a mantra like "but jesus loves me" might be an easy temporary way out, if you (even superficially) believe in such things.
It's kind of like a savety blanket for adults, really... you know, the way I sometimes see atheïsm is "eyes wide open, but no blanky".
Easy. His expressed opinions and actions do not assume the existence of a god and may very well assume the lack of existence of a god while at the same time he says it exists. People are contradictory in this way often. Haven't you ever talked to someone and thought "Did you just hear what you said, because I don't think you did."
"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.
Exactly right. I have several Christian friends who do this. If you talk to them about the obvious conflicts between the material world and the spiritual, they simply fall back on a compartmentalized view. Sure, the two worlds conflict - unless you keep them separate! It's very strange, but I think that's just how religion is taught.
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
Absolutely. Pretty much every theist I know I would consider to be very intelligent. But their belief in God tends to fall into one of three categories:
1) They have a strong religious tradition in their family, and can't bear to go against it;
2) They can't comprehend science;
or
3) They can't believe that anything bad could happend to good people without a reason.
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
Yeah. This, I think, is one of the greatest dangers of religious indoctrination. Even when people are really smart, they still have an almost Pavlovian attachment to religion, and simply refuse to hear anything other than what their gut tells them.
Take, for example, our very own Captain Pineapple.
{EDIT: Accidentally posted before I was through}
Religious indoctrination is not just parental. It's societal. When everyone around us believes, that triggers a very deep seated instinctive drive to "go with the group" and "fit in." For people who have trouble fitting in to begin with, it's even more pronounced.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
How can an opinion/actions assume the non-existance of God?
All I'm saying was that just because somebody doesn't fit in your schema of Theist doesn't mean they aren't Theist. It's impossible to determine if someone is atheist or Theist based on their actions, unless those actions are directly related, for example going to church, or joining an atheist group.
Souls do not exist and are a silly concept.
There is no afterlife (or prelife), just this existence.
I act in what I perceive to be a good manner but still expect bad things to happen to me as there is not a god keeping track of my deeds and having me reap what I sow.
There has never been a son of god, including Christ, Mohammed, Buddha, or whatever other name you want to insert. The Messiah is myth and will not ever exist.
All prophecy is hogwash.
All holy books are manmade. No human has ever received any instruction from god.
There was no prime mover that started our universe.
There is no consciousness that exists apart from material bodies (not necessarily Earth based) .
(Some of this can fit in with a deist way of thinking, but would certainly go against Judaism. )
While what you say is true it is also true that people often delude themselves. How many times have you ignored that little inner voice that is contrary to what you are saying to another? I'm going to assume here that Peppermint knows her friend well enough to see him behaving in ways and expressing opinions that do not fit with truly believing that a god exists. Something she sees makes her believe that he pays lip service to theism out of habit drilled into him rather than actual belief.
Open expressions of religiosity, or a lack thereof, are not the only ways to determine a person's views on the matter. The choices a person makes in life and the emotions they show in conjunction with those choices would be a better indicator of religious belief.
"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.
The problem with this is that nobody else hears that little inner voice and ergo cannot determine what that voice is saying about what.
How does being pro-choice, pro- gay marriage, "liberal minded", liking determinism, and having fascinating ideas about psychology have to do with belief in God?
By contrast would an atheist that is pro-life, homophobic, conservative minded and doesn't like determinism be a subconscious Theist?
Which seems to be building a schema.
Captain, just what exactly are you trying to do here? Are you threatened that someone noticed their friend states beliefs that they cannot justify based on how they respond to shared situations? Are you afraid of someone leveling this charge at you? If not, what is your problem?
I would not expect the OP to fully detail why she thinks her friend is acting differently than what he has outlined in his stated beliefs. That I cannot hear the inner voice of someone else does not mean that I can't call bullshit when they express contradictory beliefs, or act in an inconsistent manner. If I am familiar enough with this person then I can assume there is likely some inner conflict if they display such behavior. People do this all the time with friends.
"How does being pro-choice, pro- gay marriage, "liberal minded", liking determinism, and having fascinating ideas about psychology have to do with belief in God?"
In and of itself nothing. Apparently these ideas are relevant to the contradictions inherent in the OP's friend.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with the schema comment.
"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.
I go to church some times, and yet I don't believe in God, so not even that Pinapple.
To the OP, personally I think everyone are either atheists or atheists in denial. Even the craziest religious hardliners seem to me to know to know that God is just a figment of their imagination. Some people just cling to it more than others, leading them into denial of reality.
Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin
That's a good point, but the confliction of belief is fascinating to me.
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
It's just that I see this happen all the time. It's not so much "threatening" as being just a case of picking and choosing who is a "sub-concious" atheist, which I guess would be somebody who is dishonest with themselves.