My initial response is that you emotionally like the appeal of the "warm fuzzies" of the motifs of many different claims, but that does me no good emperically.

It is not up to me which god(s) you claim. It is up to you to provide the evidence for claimed god(s).

Mind you, I used to attend a Unitarian Church as an atheist, and I was quite blunt with my Wiccian friend, as I would be with any Christian or Jew or Muslim.

So again, the simplist route is for you to lay out the claims you support and provide evidence for those claims.

If this is a lose interpretation of "Karma" it is just as silly.

I am merely saying just because you claim, "I am not like the others", doesn't mean that you are not hooked on "warm fuzzie" idealism which has no basis in reality.

I love my friends and family, even the ones who do believe in some sort of magic, but that has nothing to do that despite the natural need to scratch each other's back to move forward, that there is not is some magical cosmic reason for scratching each other's back. There isn't  a magical reason for survival, it just is. And the longer you take a sample of any given species the more you realize that although the common goal is to survive, the outcome is a crapshoot.

Otherwise "Karma" explains reality as well as Voo Doo dolls.

The fact remains that we group in clubs but even within those clubs we fail to see that mutual recipocation is not magical, but benificial, even outside our own label.

I think some people like to compare it to karma, mostly because they're thinking of the western version of karma, but I don't think they're similar, other than the idea of "cause and effect".

That you eventually outgrow childish fantasies , much like Peter Pan.

You still have not postulated the existence, or defined, the god(s) you claim or real, other than to call them anecdotal.

"Don't eat yellow snow" does not mean that Osirus exists, much less he pissed in snow you contemplated eating.

You seem like a nice person, but hardly armed with the ammo that theologians I am used to.

I advise you not to bring a squirt gun to a gunfight.

LOL, ok. Perhaps we need a specific topic, cause asking me to prove my gods are real isn't going to work.

Why? Because you don't want to name them or define their powers? You are absoultly right. We cant get any where untill we know what we are dealing with, but since I am not the one claiming the god(s) you have yet to propose, I don't know what I am dealing with.(although in all honesty, my safest bet would be that you want your utopia to be real.)

Because I don't have any evidence to show you.

I can name them. Would you like me to name all of them? cause that'll be a pretty long list.

I don't have a utopia.

Yes you do, otherwise you would not believe in a god or gods. Those are merely human inventions of what we want to save us from the inevitalble death that even the universe will face.

You have simply bought into a concoction of warm fuzzy feeligns distracting you away from reality.

Why is it supposed to be a punch?

Also, I keep asking you what specifically you want to talk about about and all I get back is "make your claim". Well I claim a lot of things. I've named some already. Your best response is "well that's silly".

This isn't like christianity or islam where I claim that my way is the only true way and you have to believe it. Not only do I think my way isn't the only true way for everyone else, but I also don't think everyone should believe in it. I think you're trying to get me to say, "I believe in Odin, and you should too, cause he's real and this is why, etc". It just doesn't work that way.

I'm guessing this isn't going to be much of a debate.

Interesting thread.

Obviously, personal experiences can't lend much support in a debate, but do you think you could provide a few examples?

What is a nidthing?

Beat you to it Brian. Muhuhahaha.

But, when you believe in something, you are supporting that this "something" holds truth value or, rather, it conforms to reality. If this is the case, then, in order for your beliefs to be justified, they must be supported with reason and evidence. Not only is enjoyment of beliefs subjective, but, undoubtedly, the truth of something is not dependent upon whether you would love believing it. Otherwise, I would believe that 72 submissive virgins awaited me in heaven.  

Hmmm, obviously, none of us are obligated to believe each other, but how can there be more than one "true way?" If you hold to any worldview, you must necessarily believe that all other worldviews are false. Right?  

I was driving in my car and I was thinking of some things about my faith. I asked for a sign from Woden. Lightning struck a telephone poll nearby. I would call that a sign others may call it a coincidence since Florida is the lightning capital of the world. This is why it's UPG and won't work as evidence. I've also had dreams of being with the gods. When I'm in sumbel I can feel the presence of wights. There was one time I was at ECT(that's East Coast Thing, a gathering for heathens of denominations), and there was a bonfire and faining to Thunor(commonly known as Thor). Right up until the ritual had started it had been raining, and then suddenly stopped. A huge trunk made of wood and carved with Thor's hammer, Mjolnir, and other runes was placed in the fire as a sacrificial gift to Thunor. It burned as is common for wood to do. But everyone there(about 50-60 people) were astonished that the only part that hadn't burned was the carving of Mjolnir. We were all in agreement it was a sign from Thunor and he was pleased with our offering.

None of that would be accepted as evidence of a god or gods, however. So I don't really feel the need to bring it up usually.

It's something you call someone who is a coward,a  liar, and oath-breaker, scum of the earth, etc. here's some wikipedia for ya: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Níð

Belief doesn't make it real, I agree. I believe it's real for me, and I just happen to love believing in it.

No, it's called religious pluralism, I believe everyone must choose their own path(or no path in the case of atheists).

Here is a quote from the website of one of the orgs I'm a member of and it sums up my view perfectly:

"It is the official position of the Sácerdhád that the truth claims of any religion, with regard to its doctrines or teachings concerning divinity, can only be justified within the context of a religious tradition. From a purely epistemic standpoint, belief in the Gods cannot be satisfactorily justified without recourse to personal gnosis or religious experiences/revelations as evidence. Therefore, the goal of epistemology within the tradition of Fyrnsidu cannot be to prove the truth of our religious doctrines, but rather to understand them. So long as these doctrines continue to advance the stated goals of the tradition, then their veracity need not be challenged from an epistemic standpoint, as the existence of the Gods and wights of Fyrnsidu cannot be demonstrated with absolute certainty except from a position of faith."

For the record Ciarin, you believe in way cooler gods then most of the shmucks we get around here.

Now if you would add

Khorne

Tzeentch

Slaanesh

Nurgle

to that list, you'll have ol' Doomy's support

Whats 4 more gods, right?

haha! Thanks.

I might add them if they are worthy. Are they worthy?

As an atheist and a vegetarian I find this abhorrent. We are living in the 21st century after all. Do you actually partake in the ritualistic killing of animals? What animals do you kill? Care to explain the ceremony?

I can understand people killing animals for food (even if I disagree), but someone slitting an animals throat while chanting or praying to their god/gods seems so barbaric.

That settles that

Most vegetarians would, I don't see how being an atheist would matter though. Meat is meat, no matter how you cook it right?

Pig mostly, although I've had boar, bear, and deer before. I don't kill them myself, it's usually done by the fellow hosting the ceremony.

The ceremony is called blot. The animal is raised on the farm, and then when the time comes he's moved to a pen by himself. Before the ceremony he is fed guiness(this probably isn't typical, it's just what they did at the ones I've attended). The ceremony begins with a galdr(a song sung in old norse or old english), the animal is blessed. The animal is killed(usually by a small caliber bullet to the head, but I've also seen a slice on the carotid used, like what they do to make food kosher if you're jewish), and the blood is drained into a bowl. Everyone stands in a circle or semi circle and is asperged with the blood. Afterwords each person can go up to the carcass and thank the animal for being a sacrifice. The animal is gutted and cleaned. Then butchered. First thing to get cooked is usually the ribs, and those are so yummy(I know you don't like meat but I love 'em; there ain't nothing like fresh pork ribs). Other cuts of meat gets cooked and eaten at Husel(the feast after the blot). Anything not eaten is burned in the fire.

I find factory farming barbaric. To each their own I guess. And by the way, we don't chant.

LOL right on!

Ok.

Exactly the what?

so someone asked me to list them so I did.

Um...I believe I've already indicated that I have no evidence for you? Did you think I was lying?

I believe I've already said as much, lol. I told you asking me for evidence of the gods wasn't going to work. Sorry I can't give you the awesome athiest vs theist debate you wanted. There's just no evidence to debate.

I also have UPG, which doesn't matter to you, but it certainly matter to me.

I don't have a god of the gaps if that's what you mean.

The fact that I like my beliefs isn't an indication that it's the only reason I believe them. Has it ever occurred to you that I believe what I believe because I think it's true? I also liked it when I was Wiccan, but I no longer believe in it. Obviously me liking the beliefs isn't the deciding factor on whether or not I believe it. I also like the ADF, but I'm not a druid.

Speaking in general if someone feels good about believing what they believe I find no problem with that as long as they're not imposing it on others.

LOL, it's kind of funny that you're using a car analogy. Wanna know how I bought my current car(MINI Cooper)? I watched the Italian Job one night. The next day I custom ordered a 2008 MINI Cooper from miniusa.com AND I LOVE IT! I suggest you test drive one if you haven't done so, cause those cars are just sweet.

But to answer your question, when I bought my first car, I did kick the tires, but didn't have a mechanic check it out. I knew it was a POS when I bought. I planned on fixing it up myself, which I did. It was a 1986 Camaro IROC-Z28, with t-tops, hehe. Unfortunately by the timeI got around to fixing the breaks, I crashed it. But it was a nice learning experience.

Yea, I figured as much. Most arguments against theism don't exactly apply to me. I already admit to no evidence, I don't claim to follow the one true religion, I don't think everyone should follow my religion or believe in any of the gods, etc. Why do you think I never started a thread on it?

Ok, but I should inform you I've already been told to do this(by other atheists), and I still believe in my religion so don't expect much.

Where did I admit that I merely like it?

sure.

With a hang glider of course, hehe.

ok.

I know.

that is true.

Me liking what I believe doesn't cause anything except for enjoying what I believe.

If someone were able to prove my beliefs wrong I would thank the person for correcting me. I don't mind being corrected.

Me too.

Ok. The evidence I have for myself isn't ego or agenda driven.

I agree, blind faith is crap.

Would you rather I didn't like what I believe? I don't really understand why you keep bringing up that I like my beliefs. It's as if you think that's the only reason I believe what I believe despite me telling you that that's not the reason.

DUH! I think we have established the fact that you think it is true. But please tell me WHY you think your gun is loaded when you admit that you have no evidence?

"I like what I believe" is not evidence.

 So what are these other non-anicdotal "evidences" you can replicate in a lab setting?

The evidence I have is UPG. I believe I told you this already. Pay attention please.

I did not give this as evidence. You asked me if I like what I believe and I answered honestly.

Shall I reiterate it yet again for you? I'll just copy and paste it over and over again and maybe it'll stick this time.

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

  No offense to either party participating in this thread but wow, this debate...was....really, ugh, you know...sort of pointless .  

I've always wondered why there are still believers. These pagan religion died. Then 20th century people bring these dead religions back to life. Why is that necessary? These gods are dead. They don't exist. It's a crazy joke. Your religions had their time, were defeated philosophically by monotheism, and faded into oblivion. Your religion disappeared for a reason.......it's wrong. Completely wrong.

Well, believe it or not, I've never had a Big Mac. I do eat meat. Here is the difference: I eat meat because people need to be fed. However, I don't eat the meat as a pleasing sacrifice to God. I don't eat it as a useless sacrifice to some dead germanic god.

I don't see how it is any less likely then your religion.  In fact in many ways it seems more likely because it doesn't involve an all powerful being that constantly contradicts itself.

I agree. In fact, the very characteristics of any "omni" or "perfect" being are logically unworkable.

Second,

Finally, Ciarin, if your beliefs are based mostly on personal experiences, and you accept that personal experiences are unreliable, then how do you know you are right, especially when/if your belief contradict science? Is there anything that makes your personal experiences more valid than anyone else's personal experiences other than the fact that your personal experiences are yours? If not, do you take your beliefs with a pinch of agnosticism?