I'm aware that Jesus and his followers were Jews. There were several sects of various beliefs in the 1st century, all were Jews. The Jesus believers were one such group. Whether they also had the Pauline slant is extremely unlikely as shown in the Book of Acts when he is confronted by James. I can recommend several books for you to read when I get home from work that will help you understand the various Jewish beliefs prevailing in the early 1st century.

The Temple leaders at this time were Sadducee and Herodians who were interested only in staying in power, not the 1st time that happened go back to the 1st and 2nd century BCE and read about Alexander Jannaeus for one. Also when Pompey intervenes in the Jewish conflict.

If Jesus was such a big influence and threat, why is it that major writers including Jews in Judea never took notice of him or his followers?

Conclusion jumping on your part. My next door neighbors were Jews for 10 years as I grew up. One of my friends in high school as well. We had discussions on many occasions, like over beers.

Technically only the father's lineage was considered and according to the NT, Jesus had none, though one can argue that God was in the lineage of all. Other thoughts, if Jesus' brother was James the Just, he was of the tribe of Levi as he was a priest.

 Again, it was to be from the father's lineage.

The problem here is this was supposed to happen while the messiah was alive living amongst the Jews, not at the end of the world as in Revelation.

 If you accept the Jewish myths regarding the 10 tribes of Israel that were relocated by Assyria, they were pretty well scattered. Some of them migrated northwards into Europe and may be interweaved with the Scythians. One thing for sure is this group if you accept the myths of relocation and tribal group relationships they were clearly dispersed as they are generally called the lost tribes of Israel. Also at this time there were large groups of Jews in Alexandria, Cyprus, as well as provinces that are now Turkey, Greece, and the Balkans as well as Rome.

And when did peace come? Seems like not in the 1st century CE.

These are future events, not events that happened during the life of Jesus, hence he was not the messiah per Jewish expectations. END He failed on at least one point.

At least according to the fantastic myths and stories that don't agree.

I know, right, then again people are suckers. Tell them a pretty story with lots of BS and you fill your church, auditorium, or political rally.

You had to morph things to the future as in the world will be at peace later, all will recognize the Jewish God later. This is not what is said, it meant according to the Jews when the messiah was alive.

You lose your bet.

No where have I said the OT and NT are made up.

 At least according to the fantastic myths and stories that don't agree.

Legends and myths have basis. Much may be simply literature or fiction, though it could be stretched really far or as you say embellished. That much is wrongly claimed in the OT and the NT  is from misunderstanding. ignorance, poor record keeping, wars, lost information, and attributation of normal events to gods or God. I hold the opinion that Jesus likely lived and was most likely a form of rebel leader as was John the Baptist. He was clearly a rabbi or a learned scholar, such as a Pharisee. He told parables as they did, he gave advice like they did and more. He may have thought himself to be the messiah, he wouldn't be the first and he's certainly not the last. That he died was not what was expected, never the less the Jesus followers held out waiting for him to come back in their generation, he didn't. That pretty much should have ended it.

Many Christian see this quote as a prophecy as does the Catholic church. The Jews at Hezekiah's time thought he might be the Messiah, alas no.

OK. Also true in regards to Jesuits actually, some teach ideas that are not exactly Catholic Doctrine.

Part 7 - The Invasion

Moses dies on Mt Nebo after he sees the Promised Land. He was 120 years old.

Joshua is given charge over the Israelites and is told by the god that from the Euphrates River to the coast of Lebanon all will be their land. His first expedition is to send spies into Jericho. They hid in a hooker's house from the King's men. She told the spies she had heard of their tale how they escaped Egypt and blah..blah... So the next day when the men carrying the ark enter the water of the Jordan river it is dried up or stopped thus allowing the horde to pass over without getting their feet wet, wet swords and armor might rust as they were made of iron supposedly and perhaps still of bronze (no stainless steel as of yet).
 
Josh 4 claims 40,000 prepared for battle against Jericho. In Josh 5 Josh meets the captain of the Lord's host who told him he was on holy ground. In the meantime with the horde outside its city Jericho barricaded itself with no one coming or going. The horde of Joshua sent a group around the outside city walls once a day for 6 days. On the 7th day they went around it 7 times and the trumpets blew and all the people shouted, the walls of Jericho fell down. They took the city and killed all living in it, people, cattle, and sheep. The only survivors were the hooker and her family. Of course they kept the gold, silver, brass and iron that were seized as booty. (It's always about cash in the end with religion isn't it?)

Comments -

However - What walls? Sorry, Jericho did not have any walls at the time nor was it even occupied in the 13th century at the alleged time of the horde's invasion. Cities in Canaan at this time were not fortified as it was an Egyptian province which is thoroughly attested by the Armana Letters. These letters are from cities and towns throughout the area demonstrating they were vassals or provinces of Egypt. Walls and fortifications were not required as Egypt would march in and settle any issue. This is adequately shown for the time period from Sety I to Ramses III (1294 to 1153) and even up to Ramses VI because Megiddo was still under the control of Egypt.

So, with Egypt in control why would they allow a horde of escaped slaves to over run their rich territory? They didn't, because the entire invasion by Josh and his imaginary army never happened.

And if that isn't enough for you to discredit this mythical tall tale then consider what archeology of these cities has actually found. No walls. They were small population centers with a central building and little more. People lived generally in the country side.

If the invasion of non-occupied Jericho wasn't enough how about we invade and kill off all the inhabitants of the ruins of the city of Ai next! Josh 7 has the account of the alleged destruction of Ai. So Ai is reconnoitered and only 3000 are sent to invade. But they have been shown to be ruins dating to over 1000 years before in the late 3rd millennium, so in effect this story is about the horde invading a pile of rocks or a ghost town. 

Continuing –

Joshua 9 details the story how the Gibeonites became woodcutters and water carriers in a creative piece of literature. No evidence this story has basis. Supposedly they came to the Israelite camp pretending to live far away. A treaty was made and oaths were sworn to the God. Shortly thereafter Joshua and the leaders find out they live in Gibeon, Kephirah, Beeroth, and Kiriath Jearim. “Josh 9: 26 So Joshua saved them from the Israelites, and they did not kill them. 27 That day he made the Gibeonites woodcutters and water carriers for the community and for the altar of the LORD at the place the LORD would choose. And that is what they are to this day.”

In this from Aesop’s fables? It sure sounds like one.

Josh 10 has the tale how Gibeon is attacked by 5 kings of the Amorites and God intervenes by killing a large number of them with very large hailstones. He even insures the horde has sufficient time to do their own killing by causing the Sun and Moon to stand still. The kings that sent troops to be exterminated were Adonizedec king of Jerusalem, Hoham king of Hebron, Piram king of Jarmuth, Japhia king of Lachish, and Debir king of Eglon. The 5 kings fled from the battle and hid in a cave at Makkedah. Joshua had the cave sealed until the end of the battle. After the battle he had them removed from the cave and slew them and hung them on a tree until evening.

The Israelites then took Makkedah and slew all of the population as they had at Jericho, Josh 10:28. They went on to Libnah and killed all there as well. Next came Lachish which was the same with none surviving. The king of Gezar came to aid Lachish and all of his army was exterminated. On to Eglon the genocidal killers went and killed all of their inhabitants as well. They went on to Debir and killed all there too in Josh 10:38 and took the king and smote them all.

Comments –

Did the Chinese report there was an extremely long day sometime in the 12th or 13th century? No. After Thera was exploded by volcanic action the Chinese wrote how there were no crops and how summers were very short in the 16th century. One would think if the Earth stopped its rotation other cultures would have noticed.

Did the Assyrians or Babylonians take notice since they specialized in astronomy? Nope. More embellishment methinks!

So what would exactly happen if the Earth suddenly stopped its rotation? Much G forces perhaps causing world-wide destruction, the Earth would perhaps disintegrate? Don't know, but just think about the sudden stopping of the Earth rotating at 1040 MPH at the Equator! Probably not a pretty sight. Stuff would fly, smash, and be tossed. Kind of like when you stop suddenly in your car and everything sitting on your seat flies into the dash. The Sun or  to be correctl the Earth stopping its rotation is bullshit as Penn & Teller would say.

In Josh 10:3 Debir is called the king of Eglon yet in Josh 10:38 Debir is a city. Which is correct? See Wiki, multiple choices, maybe both.

Josh 11 has the account of all the kings loyal to Jabin of Hazor going to war against the horde at the waters of Merom. The claim is they were so many it was as the sand. After they killed all of them, Josh turns back to Hazor and burned it killing all in the city.

 In Josh 11:17 " Even from the mount Halak, that goeth up to Seir, even unto Baalgad in the valley of Lebanon under mount Hermon: and all their kings he took, and smote them, and slew them"
Comments - Again in Judges, Deborah and Barak kill Jabin of Hazor supposedly. So what is this story here supposedly? Embellishment? Confusion?

And while this was going on, the Hittite Empire in the north and Egypt which administered the province Josh was devastating did nothing.

I still know of great land deals in Florida, how about condos?

Josh 12 is a summary of all the kings they slew.

Josh 13 - 19 is the description of allocation to the tribes.

Josh 20 states the refuge cities.

Josh dies at 110 at Shecham in Josh 24.

The Judges will be the next story we will investigate and we get to go over the story of the  Jewish version of Herakles aka Hercules.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Part 7 - The Invasion

Moses dies on Mt Nebo after he sees the Promised Land. He was 120 years old.

Joshua is given charge over the Israelites and is told by the god that from the Euphrates River to the coast of Lebanon all will be their land. His first expedition is to send spies into Jericho. They hid in a hooker's house from the King's men. She told the spies she had heard of their tale how they escaped Egypt and blah..blah... So the next day when the men carrying the ark enter the water of the Jordan river it is dried up or stopped thus allowing the horde to pass over without getting their feet wet, wet swords and armor might rust as they were made of iron supposedly and perhaps still of bronze (no stainless steel as of yet).
 
Josh 4 claims 40,000 prepared for battle against Jericho. In Josh 5 Josh meets the captain of the Lord's host who told him he was on holy ground. In the meantime with the horde outside its city Jericho barricaded itself with no one coming or going. The horde of Joshua sent a group around the outside city walls once a day for 6 days. On the 7th day they went around it 7 times and the trumpets blew and all the people shouted, the walls of Jericho fell down. They took the city and killed all living in it, people, cattle, and sheep. The only survivors were the hooker and her family. Of course they kept the gold, silver, brass and iron that were seized as booty. (It's always about cash in the end with religion isn't it?)

Comments -

However - What walls? Sorry, Jericho did not have any walls at the time nor was it even occupied in the 13th century at the alleged time of the horde's invasion. Cities in Canaan at this time were not fortified as it was an Egyptian province which is thoroughly attested by the Armana Letters. These letters are from cities and towns throughout the area demonstrating they were vassals or provinces of Egypt. Walls and fortifications were not required as Egypt would march in and settle any issue. This is adequately shown for the time period from Sety I to Ramses III (1294 to 1153) and even up to Ramses VI because Megiddo was still under the control of Egypt.

sometimes, the word translated "walls" literally is refering to the city boarder and doesn't necessarily mean there are physical walls around.  In this case, it could be refering to baracades (as would an army have preparing for battle)  What Hebrew word is in question here?  I had to go all the way to Joshua Ch. 6 before I found the word wall in reference to Jericho.  No other part did I see any reference to a physical wall, which further confirms to me that what is being refered to is not a visible physical wall.  Other words in reference to Jericho mentioned "boarder".

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

So, with Egypt in control why would they allow a horde of escaped slaves to over run their rich territory? They didn't, because the entire invasion by Josh and his imaginary army never happened.

i did acknowlege that archeologically, Joshua's rendition of what happened doesn't quite add up.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

And if that isn't enough for you to discredit this mythical tall tale then consider what archeology of these cities has actually found. No walls. They were small population centers with a central building and little more. People lived generally in the country side.

again, you hit one bump in the road... the wall thing being translational and you are ready to jump on the whole Bible and God being false.  Or are you referring to this as a true story with major exaggerations.  This I will agree with here.  i believe it was the last post, I hadn't read this post yet and I commented on how Joshua doesn't coenside with facts.  It is however the first book that really doesn't that we've come across in our runthrough yet. 

Some issues with this book is the fact that it is theorized to have been written 800 years after the actual events, which would also conclude that Joshua could not possibly be the author.  There are theories that Samuel had some part in compiling the details of this book, but it is ultimately unknown here.  A fun story to read, tall tale indeed, that touches on factual happenings.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

If the invasion of non-occupied Jericho wasn't enough how about we invade and kill off all the inhabitants of the ruins of the city of Ai next! Josh 7 has the account of the alleged destruction of Ai. So Ai is reconnoitered and only 3000 are sent to invade. But they have been shown to be ruins dating to over 1000 years before in the late 3rd millennium, so in effect this story is about the horde invading a pile of rocks or a ghost town. 

Keep in mind whoever wrote the book is referencing to whatever is in that location during their lifetime and not necessarily the actual name in the story.  The attack could have happened in any general 100 mile radius of the location as well be it that the book was written so much later and whoever wrote it was probably a normal person with minimal historical reference.  Though there's no evidence of anything existing before Ai, there's nothing to suggest it was just a pile of rocks as well. 

It's hard to take a book that has a history that we can see as not being anywhere near its actual happenings and assume that what is being said is evidence of discrediting the Bible.  My guess is the author took what they knew from stories handed down and put it together to try to paint as accurate of a picture as they could from what they knew by word of mouth and the minimal historical writing that they may or may not have had access to.  Hardly a basis for conclusion here.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Continuing –

Joshua 9 details the story how the Gibeonites became woodcutters and water carriers in a creative piece of literature. No evidence this story has basis. Supposedly they came to the Israelite camp pretending to live far away. A treaty was made and oaths were sworn to the God. Shortly thereafter Joshua and the leaders find out they live in Gibeon, Kephirah, Beeroth, and Kiriath Jearim. “Josh 9: 26 So Joshua saved them from the Israelites, and they did not kill them. 27 That day he made the Gibeonites woodcutters and water carriers for the community and for the altar of the LORD at the place the LORD would choose. And that is what they are to this day.”

In this from Aesop’s fables? It sure sounds like one.

could have been based on the same historical information that they had at the time....  Keep in mind this book is not unique in any aspect to any other documents from any other group such as Merneptah Stele, the Mesha Stone, various Assyrian and Babylonian king annals as well as a variety of Hittite documents other than the fact that it has been well preserved for thousands of years.  It's how most of these types of documentations were written.  nothing ever said they were perfectly historically accurate.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Josh 10 has the tale how Gibeon is attacked by 5 kings of the Amorites and God intervenes by killing a large number of them with very large hailstones. He even insures the horde has sufficient time to do their own killing by causing the Sun and Moon to stand still. The kings that sent troops to be exterminated were Adonizedec king of Jerusalem, Hoham king of Hebron, Piram king of Jarmuth, Japhia king of Lachish, and Debir king of Eglon. The 5 kings fled from the battle and hid in a cave at Makkedah. Joshua had the cave sealed until the end of the battle. After the battle he had them removed from the cave and slew them and hung them on a tree until evening.

The Israelites then took Makkedah and slew all of the population as they had at Jericho, Josh 10:28. They went on to Libnah and killed all there as well. Next came Lachish which was the same with none surviving. The king of Gezar came to aid Lachish and all of his army was exterminated. On to Eglon the genocidal killers went and killed all of their inhabitants as well. They went on to Debir and killed all there too in Josh 10:38 and took the king and smote them all.

Comments –

Did the Chinese report there was an extremely long day sometime in the 12th or 13th century? No. After Thera was exploded by volcanic action the Chinese wrote how there were no crops and how summers were very short in the 16th century. One would think if the Earth stopped its rotation other cultures would have noticed.

There are other cultures in the world that have the extra long day story.  I think some native American tribes hold onto that as well. 

Notice there is a reference to another book right after that claim.  Again, there's a theory that this book was written hundreds of years after its actual occurances.  With this in mind, it's very possible they took what they read in other historical writings and compiled this book.  They obviously viewed the book of Jashar as an accurate historical document.  I think to better analyze this claim, we'd need to look into that book a little more.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Did the Assyrians or Babylonians take notice since they specialized in astronomy? Nope. More embellishment methinks!

see reference in Bible. Jsh.  10:13

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

So what would exactly happen if the Earth suddenly stopped its rotation? Much G forces perhaps causing world-wide destruction, the Earth would perhaps disintegrate? Don't know, but just think about the sudden stopping of the Earth rotating at 1040 MPH at the Equator! Probably not a pretty sight. Stuff would fly, smash, and be tossed. Kind of like when you stop suddenly in your car and everything sitting on your seat flies into the dash. The Sun or  to be correct the Earth stopping its rotation is bullshit as Penn & Teller would say.

logically it is.  Though taking into consideration for a moment that God is the true creator of all things, I'm sure if he were to do it, he'd have taken all into consideration, be it that he created it all including the scientific laws we now adhere to if he were to take such drastic measures. 

from the information we have, it's logical to conclude embelishment to emphasize a point...  I'll have more information on this after checking with my resources.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

And while this was going on, the Hittite Empire in the north and Egypt which administered the province Josh was devastating did nothing.

I still know of great land deals in Florida, how about condos?

Josh 12 is a summary of all the kings they slew.

Josh 13 - 19 is the description of allocation to the tribes.

Josh 20 states the refuge cities.

Josh dies at 110 at Shecham in Josh 24.

The Judges will be the next story we will investigate and we get to go over the story of the  Jewish version of Herakles aka Hercules.

sounds good.  i will be looking futher into some aspects of this post and will try to reply to them later.  sorry for the delay on this one.  With your posts, I tend to take a lot more time in replying so as to make sure I'm not just making a blind assumption with my conclusions.  Therefore, instead of giving you a half-assed response to a well researched post on your part, i want to make sure I can really sit down and look into it.  Thanks for your patience. 

sometimes, the word translated "walls" literally is refering to the city boarder and doesn't necessarily mean there are physical walls around.  In this case, it could be refering to baracades (as would an army have preparing for battle)  What Hebrew word is in question here?  I had to go all the way to Joshua Ch. 6 before I found the word wall in reference to Jericho.  No other part did I see any reference to a physical wall, which further confirms to me that what is being refered to is not a visible physical wall.  Other words in reference to Jericho mentioned "boarder".

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

What's the difference as you have already agreed the Joshua account is unsupportable?

Actually Joshua isn't the first book that doesn't correspond to the facts we have today none of them have so far.

Summary of some of the major bumps in the road, not including the potholes.

Genesis - Creation account (evolution or Sumerian are alternatives) - strike one;

fall of man-(Sumerian alternative or Jewish belief or explanation by ignorant ancients) - strike two.

Sons of god cohabiting with daughters of man - strike three-1 out

world wide flood-(at best local floods from weather related issues as in a hurricane) - strike one

; Tower of Babel-(unsupported ignorant claim on language development & explanation for Ziggurants) - strike two;

Abraham in general & all associated tales (uncorroborated stories many conflicting & using place names of 1000 years or more in the future) - strike three - 2 outs

; Sodom & Gomorrah-Lot's wife= salt-(explanation probably for Dead Sea by the ancients)-strike one

Joseph & tales -(again uncorroborated)-strike two

 

Hebrews enslaved in Egypt-strike 3, 3 outs.

Exodus - Moses as real-strike 1

 

The Exodus at all-strike 2

 

40 years of wandering-strike 3-1 more out

 

thousands of slaves invading Canaan-strike 1

Joshua - Jericho-strike 2; Ai-strike 3-3 more  outs; Wiping out Canaanites-strike 1; going around Edom-strike 2; Hazor & Jablin (conflicting stories & conflicts with archeology)-strike 3.

These are just the major points and don't go into the minor fantastic claims and issues prevalent in the books.

Joshua clearly is not my only problem with the stories in the OT it's a continuation of the problems.

Why do you not consider the Sumerian/Akkadian/Assyrian/Babylonian stories to be meritorious in the same way as you do these? They too have fantastic claims and magic. They too claim all sorts of unsupportable stories. And they are far older in the copies we have in our possession.

Joshua may well have been written from stories and legends that had been handed down which means it is exactly that no more. I understand that as in the case of Ai he may have known of the stories and decided this was the place that was destroyed in the story. He may have seen Jericho in his time period with walls and constructed the story from what he saw and put together from several story tellers to document it for posterity. That however does not make any of it true or real.

No I realize they aren't unique, there are Greek Stories and myths that explain why people and things are the way they are at the time they were written as well. They aren't true either in general. I have read and investigated many of the steles and historical documents you mention and understand they were using them for boasting and propaganda in all likelihood.

Good luck with reading The Book of Jasher as no copy is known to exist see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jasher_%28Biblical_references%29

 

My point was the Assyrians and Babylonians were studious of astronomy and they kept excellent records as did the Chinese it is clearly not helpful in supporting an activity that goes against what we understand of physics and our solar system. If the American Indians had such an oral tradition please supply such information as to which tribes and exactly what their understanding of it meant.

Are you suggesting this was a localized event only in the valley of Ajalon and no where else on the planet Earth?

Perhaps a spaceship with very bright lights parked over the valley of Ajilon and it appeared to be the Sun. Other than that it has to be magic and/or fictional embellishment. The spaceship could have God inside if you want or it can be from the future, the past, another part of the Universe come to help the Hebrews kill their enemies. Or they just wanted to watch all the bloodshed and were betting on who'd win and so made in effect an illuminated stadium so the battle could continue.

You can admit you attribute this impossibility to an act of the god if you want.

 I appreciate the consideration you give to the subject. I will be returning to Florida in about 2 weeks and will have some gaps in my attention to the forum when I do.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Actually Joshua isn't the first book that doesn't correspond to the facts we have today none of them have so far.

say wha?  Unless i missed something before, Joshua is the first book that doesn't 'correspond to the facts we have today'.  

There may have been a lack of evidence to suggest "proof" for the other books, but i do remember offering you suggested scientific and geological explanations for a lot of the happenings in Genesis and Exodus.  We went through them and the migrations, which though smaller than claimed, still are congruent with historical fact.  There was nothing you presented that suggested any of it could not have happened on a smaller scale.  What evidence are you basing your conclusion on?

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Summary of some of the major bumps in the road, not including the potholes.

Genesis - Creation account (evolution or Sumerian are alternatives) - strike one;

I'll respond to this with factual non-bias statements.  This meaning I will only conclude based on the evidence that is there and not on my own understanding of what I think i want to be true:

alternative ideas count as a strike?  Better discount all of theoretical science while you're at it then.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

fall of man-(Sumerian alternative or Jewish belief or explanation by ignorant ancients) - strike two.

Sure, ok, no evidence of any of it.  Darn it, Adam should have written an autobiography.  Why didn't he do that?

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Sons of god cohabiting with daughters of man - strike three-1 out

You have no belief in God, so I'll give you that.  Which leads to... well, strike 1 really with no rational support for the other 2.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

world wide flood-(at best local floods from weather related issues as in a hurricane) - strike one

translational issues from such an old story and perspective bias don't discredit its happenings.  Strike one, 0 outs.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

; Tower of Babel-(unsupported ignorant claim on language development & explanation for Ziggurants) - strike two;

A big question from new believers has been 'why separate us with languages, isn't God about unity?'  the story comes then about why and how..  Tower of Babel.  Again, you don't believe in a god, but for the sake of the Bible, if God was real, it's a legitimate reasoning to the language barrier and phsychologically, it would have had the same results that we see today.   For an ignorant story writer, that's quite an intelligent approach to the reasoning.   I'll give you strike 2 anyway... 0 outs.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Abraham in general & all associated tales (uncorroborated stories many conflicting & using place names of 1000 years or more in the future) - strike three - 2 outs

uh... we I thought established the reasoning behind the places and names not fitting with the time.  Writers bias knowing that what was written happened much later than the happenings written about.  I will remind you that when you take away the names of the places, but kept the same geographical location, it makes sense historically.  It's like saying; 'right up where that church is, there was a great battle.'  Are you assuming there was a massive bar fight in the church?  Strike 2, 0 outs.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

; Sodom & Gomorrah-Lot's wife= salt-(explanation probably for Dead Sea by the ancients)-strike one

I might not have scientifically explained this one.  The story claims she just turned around and *poof* salt... it is logically theorized that she didn't just "turn around" as in standing in that spot, but actually went back to get something.  When the damage was surveyed later she was a pillar of salt.  it has been recorded in science that objects including people trapped in a volcanic ash storm can result in "pillars of salt" as observed and be preserved in that state.  Strike 2, 0 outs.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Joseph & tales -(again uncorroborated)-strike two

same as before, only strike 2, 0 outs.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

 

Hebrews enslaved in Egypt-strike 3, 3 outs.

We went through that as well and concluded it makes sense.  We even went through why it might not have been recorded.  Poor excuse for a strike on either side.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Exodus - Moses as real-strike 1

how so?  Evidence something else happened instead?

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

 

The Exodus at all-strike 2

I believe i eluded to scientific explanations of Exodus type happenigns... not all of them, but the ones geologically based.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

 

40 years of wandering-strike 3-1 more out

sure, but 40 years migrating... plausible; strike 2, 0 outs still.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

 

thousands of slaves invading Canaan-strike 1

sure, but 100's of slaves rolling through, pillaging as they go, plausible... still strike 2, 0 outs.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Joshua - Jericho-strike 2; Ai-strike 3-3 more  outs; Wiping out Canaanites-strike 1; going around Edom-strike 2; Hazor & Jablin (conflicting stories & conflicts with archeology)-strike 3.

So I'll give you Joshua due to the lack of support archeologically... that would lead to... 1 out.. and that's with me giving you 2 freebies for not believing in a meta-physical God.  Seems you forgot some of the conversations we've already had here?

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

These are just the major points and don't go into the minor fantastic claims and issues prevalent in the books.

Joshua clearly is not my only problem with the stories in the OT it's a continuation of the problems.

See, I can give it to you that you dont' believe in God, but to conclude as you have with plausible ideas that coenside with geology and science seems illogical to me.  Remember I'm trying to keep bias out of this, so correct me if I'm wrong that it's illogical to conclude as you have based on plausible concepts.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Why do you not consider the Sumerian/Akkadian/Assyrian/Babylonian stories to be meritorious in the same way as you do these? They too have fantastic claims and magic. They too claim all sorts of unsupportable stories. And they are far older in the copies we have in our possession.

I never claimed anything about them.  They very well could hold reasonable basis.  I would have to read through them thoroughly and alalyze them as we have here, which I haven't done in order to conclude either way. 

Considering for a moment a meta-physical existance and the spiritual battles that are said to be happening in that realm, just because there is a claim that goes against Biblical belief (not in reference to historical or scientific congruency) doesn't mean that it's untrue or didn't happen.  It could just be the opposing side's claims or point of view or actual beliefs of that opposing side. 

It's one thing to analyze the Bible based on Historical, geographical and scientific fact, but it's a whole other thing when you focus on meta-physcial interference and try to claim one side to be false as you have with the tower of Bable among others.  Just like duct tape, there is a light side and a dark side with nothing in between.  If they're not for God, they're against Him... no exceptions.  There's no room for fence sitters. 

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Joshua may well have been written from stories and legends that had been handed down which means it is exactly that no more. I understand that as in the case of Ai he may have known of the stories and decided this was the place that was destroyed in the story. He may have seen Jericho in his time period with walls and constructed the story from what he saw and put together from several story tellers to document it for posterity. That however does not make any of it true or real.

it doesn't make it automatically false too.  The question now be it that there are many stories including all of those that used to be a part of the Bible called the Apocrypha  that are not a part of it now.  The question we'd need to tackle now is why is it that Joshua, being as is, still a part of the Bible?  Why were the books of the Apocrypha originally a part and not now?  There is a reason why the scholars felt this was still factual enough to include as support for the OT.    Thoughts?

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

No I realize they aren't unique, there are Greek Stories and myths that explain why people and things are the way they are at the time they were written as well. They aren't true either in general. I have read and investigated many of the steles and historical documents you mention and understand they were using them for boasting and propaganda in all likelihood.

agreed... did that make them completely untrue then?.. or just exaggerated.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Good luck with reading The Book of Jasher as no copy is known to exist see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jasher_%28Biblical_references%29

Right, which then makes it ignorant of us to automatically assume anything about the claim.  Until we can analyze a referenced source for the claim, how could we possibly assume anything about it?  It's quite obvious be it that the author felt it necessary to reference, that they didn't observe it themselves and were only going by what they read. 

Logically, i would agree that the Earth didn't stop turning or that the sun moved in such a way to make it day twice in a row.  There are other Astrological possibilities that I haven't researched as well for this explanation such as supernova's or a wolf's moon that could have been drastically exaggerated to be shedding light (as if the sun stood still).. 

Your link brings to light another good point, the fact that there is known to be a numerous amount of missing books of the OT, that might shed more light if ever found on many of the unknowns that are there now.  As I've said, lack of evidence in no way suggests that it didn't happen.  Understanding how the book was written, it's very possible, the way it is explained in the sources the author was using, there is no other explanation for such a success in their understanding.  We could go on all day with assumptions, but there is obviously missing peices to the puzzle.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

 

My point was the Assyrians and Babylonians were studious of astronomy and they kept excellent records as did the Chinese it is clearly not helpful in supporting an activity that goes against what we understand of physics and our solar system. If the American Indians had such an oral tradition please supply such information as to which tribes and exactly what their understanding of it meant.

Some references:

I'm not sure of a source here, but there's said to be a prophet named  Youshe' Bin Noon who was traveling during that time and claimed he was supposed to reach his destination at sunset but was running behind.  He claimed the sun stayed for a few hours so that he'd have daylight... I'm not sure where that's from though.

It is reported by historians that records of the Chinese during the reign of Emperor Yeo, who lived at the same time as Joshua, report "a long day." Also, Heroditus, a Greek historian, wrote that an account of "a long day" appears in records of Egyptian priests. Others cite records of Mexicans of the sun standing still for an entire day in a year denoted as "Seven Rabits," which is understood to be the same year in which Joshua defeated the Philistines and conquered Palestine.

It's possible that i was told about the Native American tribes and it not being true, but i'm pretty sure there was at least one if not a few... I can't seem to find that now, but there's others beyond them as presented above.   Their understandings were from what I remember that there was a double day.  They used to keep track of day and night on makeshift calenders.  I'm sure the evidence is long gone, but supposedly there was  one such calender as told that had special markings for day and special markigns for night.  I don't remember, i think it was a double night on their calender.  This would make sense as far as sun position for Joshua's sake.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Are you suggesting this was a localized event only in the valley of Ajalon and no where else on the planet Earth?

I think it's pretty clear that I'm not.  Unlike the flood idea being localized.  This is one claim that had to be noticed elsewhere if it actually happened.

though the native americans do have a flood story too, though there's tells of a man who climbed way high in a tree and stayed there for 40 days until the flood waters subsided.   Ironic to be the same timeframe and natural happening.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Perhaps a spaceship with very bright lights parked over the valley of Ajilon and it appeared to be the Sun. Other than that it has to be magic and/or fictional embellishment. The spaceship could have God inside if you want or it can be from the future, the past, another part of the Universe come to help the Hebrews kill their enemies. Or they just wanted to watch all the bloodshed and were betting on who'd win and so made in effect an illuminated stadium so the battle could continue.

maybe... or could it be without your wild imagination and us Christians makign up a story that there's a simple logical explanation as to the happening or how it got so embellished as to be claiming a double day.  Be it that the evidence for this particular book is minimal, I'm leaning toward embelishment, however, it is odd that there are other claims as referenced above about the sun standing still for a day.  All are completely unrelated to scripture, especially the Chineese be it that they were pretty careful about their documentations.

A lack of evidence means there is not proof

A small migration of escapees from Egypt could have occurred. This does not mean that it did so occur.

 

Many things are possible to occur but that does not mean they happen.

It is possible Egyptians sailed all the way to Australia in ancient times. A false claim was made a few years ago regarding such and was discredited, yet it was possible.

Under the right conditions an ancient ship of Carthage, Rome, Egypt, or Phoenicians could have made it to the New World. If so, they left no proof, but it was possible. When I agreed that a small band of escapees could have done some of the exploits mentioned in the OT it was under the scenario such as I indicate here. It could be, but it's surely not what was described as the claim is majorly exaggerated.

See 1 Enoch, a really detailed account of Genesis 6, held to be scripture or relevant until later Church fathers dismissed it. Jude and Revelation both show influences from 1 Enoch. Many copies of 1 Enoch were included in the Dead Sea Scrolls. See:

http://www.jacksonsnyder.com/arc/2008/enoch.htm

I still vote for the Sumerian Flood story as closer to what may have occurred in ancient Mesopotamia, see Epic of Gilgamesh not including the gods of course.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

A lack of evidence means there is not proof

...of either perspective.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

A small migration of escapees from Egypt could have occurred. This does not mean that it did so occur.

...and it does not mean that it did not occur either.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

 

Many things are possible to occur but that does not mean they happen.

 

and it doesn't mean they didn't happen.  i understand this.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

It is possible Egyptians sailed all the way to Australia in ancient times. A false claim was made a few years ago regarding such and was discredited, yet it was possible.

Just because it was possible doesn't mean it did happen either of course.  If there are facts that discredit the possibility then no matter how possible it was, it most likely didn't happen.  When there are lack of facts, it's illogical to pick a side, but an educated theory is appropriate.  With supporting possibilities, it'd more logical to lean in the direction of the supporting possibilities majority.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Under the right conditions an ancient ship of Carthage, Rome, Egypt, or Phoenicians could have made it to the New World. If so, they left no proof, but it was possible. When I agreed that a small band of escapees could have done some of the exploits mentioned in the OT it was under the scenario such as I indicate here. It could be, but it's surely not what was described as the claim is majorly exaggerated.

The thing is, the main point of the story still holds true to each story regardless of the agreed upon exaggerations.  Without the exaggerations, the main focus of the story is still there and the same point gets across... just not to the magnitude in some cases that they claim.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

See 1 Enoch, a really detailed account of Genesis 6, held to be scripture or relevant until later Church fathers dismissed it. Jude and Revelation both show influences from 1 Enoch. Many copies of 1 Enoch were included in the Dead Sea Scrolls. See:

http://www.jacksonsnyder.com/arc/2008/enoch.htm

I'm familiar with the book.  It does go in to quite a bit of detail about the other side.  I think it was dismissed due to lack of support outside of the book... not that there would be outside support for something like that anyway.  He was the only one written in the Bible to have been taken up by God without dying because of his super strong walk with God.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

 

You made suggestions, though that doesn't support the embellishments or give it real basis. Proof is required in the way of something to document the escape, events, journey actually happened and were not a parable or literature. Small groups could have been basis for the story but that's conjecture.

Be it that there is a logical reasoning for no recorded evidence, a rational reasoning to the happenings elude to the possibility over it not happening at all.  Granted for the hard of heart, only concrete evidence is valid beyond just one document or agreeing documents coensiding with the same following... which pretty much nullifies the majority of world history before Christ's time.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

 

Possibilities only mean it could be not that it was.

which also means they cannot be dismissed without probable cause.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

As ancient man has been shown to lack much knowledge and attribute unknowns to gods I require proof with all such claims regardless of culture. Yahweh and Enki are both gods considered to be real by cultures to explain why things were the way they are observed. No proof either has basis in the real world nor which one.

The difference here is true followers of Christ... and Jews from what I understand, don't adhere to the belief in the Almighty for explanation on why things are or were the way they were. 

It is said that science supports scripture.  This would indicate no dependence on a god to understand why things are or were.  Most believers would say that when they came to know Christ (became a believer after not being one)  they understand less and have more questions about why things were vs. when they didn't know God.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

And it may well be that the ancient Akkadians had the true god and all else has been distorted. Read their stories and history is my point. Maybe their gods were misunderstood and are really the same as yours?

very true.  We as Christ followers looking back into history take into consideration cultural differences in understanding God and know that just because it's not in scripture or even may not coenside completely with the way we understand things to have been doesn't mean they weren't following the same God or at least in knowlege of Him.  There are as I've said, many factors to consider when reading sources.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

The tower of Babel is illogical for its explanation of language disparity and diversity. Have you tried talking to a teenager lately? Separation by generations, distance, and isolation cause complete distinct languages no god interference required.

Talking about programing as we are in the other forum, is it possible that it's not God's interference?  sure it is, but then again, is it logical to assume that the language change happened overnight?  it is written to allow someone to assume so, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's how it happened.

Psychologically, teens want to be separate from the older generations and therefore, purposely differenciate themselves.  We talk about outside influences in the other forum causing choices to be made... what caused the choice in most teens to be made this way?

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Theories abound as to reality versus claims for many things and places. Troy, real but not really as described. Was Thera Atlantis? Were the Minoans the Atlanteans? If not where was it? The ancient Jews are clearly not the only ones with missing history. What occurred, when? Part of the fun and challenge is to research and consider possibilities. Will we ever really know?

a historian friend of mine eluded to the fact that this claim of the sun standing still is how they described a solar eclipse.  There were a few different ways of describing it, but what it came down to is they didn't understand what was happening and automatically assumed that something was wrong when it did happen.  In this case, it seemed that there was an extra day.. probably 2 very short days or a double night depending on the perspective. 

seeing a solar eclipse myself, it does give the illusion that everything stops for a short time.  I can see that point of view.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

 

If anything is possible than so too are advanced civilizations from elsewhere, I'd give this more probability than unseen gods as we know there is a least one such civilization namely us, though I'm not sure of the advanced part. Keeping in mind the vast distances involved reduces this probability though with knowledge who knows what is possible. Just speculating out loud here.

Sure, taking belief of God out of the picture for a moment and opening it up to everything through a logical means of thought, be it that we have an understanding that without God life happened, it's a very likely possibility that somewhere else out in the vast universe, that of which we still don't know how big, there must be other intelligent life... even planets that support life that's just starting out.  Of course statistics reveal how unlikely this would be as common events happening throughout the universe, it's very likely without God that it would be if we do exist... however, statistically speaking, we are an anomoly... without a God, the statistics show that our existence is extremely unlikely and basically should not have happened.  To a non-believer however, their defense is that it still happened... as with all statistics, there is always a chance even if the chance is making the powerball jackpot look easy to win.   

some christians hold the view that we don't know all of God's plan and there's nothing in the Bible to suggest that we are the one and only created colony from God and it would ultimately be irrelevent to our existance.  It's possible from their perspective that God made a universe so rediculously huge so that we would not discover the other colonies he created, but so that he could have them still and keep us focused mainly on Him and ourselves. 

So instead of withholding judgment you conclude your perspective is real?

My point is this, what I was taught is not true as a Christian. What is true, not what I was taught. Is there any possible way to test and verify to determine what is the true story? So far no. My conclusion is to follow what is observed reality not a path of wishful thinking and hopeful conjecture.

A small migration of escapees from Egypt could have occurred. This does not mean that it did so occur.

Nor does it mean it is more than literature written to express a way of living.

 

OK, but acceptance of these stories as meaningful or inspired in some way by a higher intelligence (you call it God) is virtual acceptance that it has real world basis. Kind of difficult to get there from the ancient past of Jewish beliefs and do so without jumping forward into Jesus beliefs isn't it?

Supposedly relics were found in Australia in the 1990s that were ancient Egyptian could have been possible as they did go down Africa and supposedly to India.  A little off course with winds and there you are. However, no mention is ever made in Egypt of this land so very unlikely a round trip ever happened. The case in the 1990s was found to have been faked.

Part of the thrust of these stories is how powerful the god is and how he cares for his people. If you remove all the magic and miracles what do you have?

Same thing as the Sumerians and their gods. Ancient people making claims regarding that which they were clueless over. Both groups claim they have a very powerful god who cares about them. Neither can produce him.

Probably 1 Enoch dates to 150 to 250 BCE and was not written by Enoch. It was likely held to be non-canonical due to its lack of discussing Lucifer & Satan. It seems all the angels (sons of god) involved in this event were captured, tortured and permanently incarcerated. This doesn't leave room for the mysterious evil one and his devious pursuit of human souls does it? Regardless as it was so well known it was used by St John the writer of Revelation for much of his rant combined with parts of Daniel & Ezekiel.

The magic and miracles are the probable cause. When unrealistic events are claimed such as the Sun standing still which conflict with reality we observe that's probable cause. Among many others so far.

Good luck with showing science supports scripture.

Perhaps the reasons a Christian understands less is fantasy doesn't blend too well with the real world.

As did Mohammad. None of which does a thing to validate any of the god claims.

The tower of Babel is illogical for its explanation of language disparity and diversity. Have you tried talking to a teenager lately? Separation by generations, distance, and isolation cause complete distinct languages no god interference required.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

So instead of withholding judgment you conclude your perspective is real?

My point is this, what I was taught is not true as a Christian. What is true, not what I was taught. Is there any possible way to test and verify to determine what is the true story? So far no. My conclusion is to follow what is observed reality not a path of wishful thinking and hopeful conjecture.

I understand your perspective.  Be it that there are scary things promised to those who follow Jesus such as humiliation, torture, death in his name, etc, I don't see how it's wishful thinking and hopeful conjecture that would be keeping one to this following.

What it has come down to is a complete humbling of the heart.  This is extremely hard for most people, especially if they think they know what's right and don't want to question anything opposing that understanding to the extreme of "trying it on for size".

So many people talk about building a relationship with God.  Believe it or not, that is the big catalyst that keeps people in the true faith.  Most non-believers then come back with...; 'so then I have to believe before I believe.'  That's not what that's saying... but without believing, you can search and study.  The Bible says if you seek God, you will find him. 1 Chron. 28:9 elaborates to you truly seeking him from your heart.

Thus, you can have all the knowlege of the world, but you can always find reason to not believe (or to believe) due to lack of evidences on both sides if that's where your heart is.  Every time that has been presented on here, it has been recieved with ridicule and skepticism... The funny part is, no one took on the challenge as far as I'm aware.

I would not expect anyone to understand that unless they knew God and you won't see it until you truly start looking for God.  I don't expect you to grasp the relationship with God idea, but it sheds light on why I believe and nullifies your reasoning above.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

A small migration of escapees from Egypt could have occurred. This does not mean that it did so occur.

...and it does not mean that it did not occur either.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Nor does it mean it is more than literature written to express a way of living.

in conclusion, we cannot through historical evidences conclude either way on this topic.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

 

OK, but acceptance of these stories as meaningful or inspired in some way by a higher intelligence (you call it God) is virtual acceptance that it has real world basis. Kind of difficult to get there from the ancient past of Jewish beliefs and do so without jumping forward into Jesus beliefs isn't it?

I'm not completely sure what you might be trying to get at here, but my quick answer for the moment I believe would be;  no, I don't think so.  Be it that Christian belief and Jesus' teachings are completely rooted in Jewish belief and based off of Jewish belief.  The only reason I'd need to jump forward into Jesus beliefs is to explain why I'm not a Jew. 

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Part of the thrust of these stories is how powerful the god is and how he cares for his people. If you remove all the magic and miracles what do you have?

plausibilities in science.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Same thing as the Sumerians and their gods. Ancient people making claims regarding that which they were clueless over. Both groups claim they have a very powerful god who cares about them. Neither can produce him.

Be it that God is a meta-physical being with complete control over His own actions, I've always asked to that statement above; 'how would you expect someone to produce this God or show Him to you... or even scientifically experiment and emperacally show His existance through the physical sciences?'

If anything, congruent outcomes of people who try to empirically disprove God have been that they either failed miserably and have come to the same conclusion every other atheist has, or they've actually found God in the process.  Logically, if you're set out to disprove God, no one should come to find God and yet, there are staggering numbers of people in the world who have done just that. 

Statistically speaking, God exists... logically according to our physical and worldly understanding, he couldn't possibly exist... scientifically speaking, God is a plausible theory, but there are theories just as plausible that point away from the existance of a creator... Popular belief says there must be a higher power... What do you hang on to assure that God is in fact fake?

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

The magic and miracles are the probable cause. When unrealistic events are claimed such as the Sun standing still which conflict with reality we observe that's probable cause. Among many others so far.

usually there is a logical reasoning behind certain events.  of course I wouldn't expect any non-beleiver to grasp God and his actions as something to consider, but as far as the comment about the sun standing still, I thought I clarified that with you.  

Just in case, after some research, i found out that the 'sun stood still' is actually in reference to a solar eclipse and not that the sun literally stopped in the sky for a few hours.  Ancients of course had minimal understanding of the cosmos and when a solar eclipse happened, they didn't know what it was or how to explain it, they just knew that something was wrong.  most ancients from that time described it as the sun stopping or standing still, or even refer to it as a double day.  I can see be it that i've experienced one how they could assume that.  During one it does seem as if everything stops and that it becomes almost like nighttime at one point.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Good luck with showing science supports scripture.

good luck showing it doesn't.  My science vs religion forum shows a few examples of how science can support scripture and any effort to suggest otherwise is futile.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Perhaps the reasons a Christian understands less is fantasy doesn't blend too well with the real world.

good theory... though the magic isn't what I was referring to.   it's not that they understand less than they knew, it's that they realize there's more out there than they understand or are able to comprehend.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Teens are secretive and don't want parents to understand what is being discussed.

But why is the question.  They're secretive, even when they're not doign anything wrong.  They just dont' want parents involved in their life to that degree.  Why?

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

The text indicates an extended longer day so the Hebrews could continue killing. Pretty hard to turn that into something else.

As far as they were concerned it was.  It's not like they all had watches on or a town clock to go by and analyze the time, It is understood that it gave an illusion of the day ending, then coming back so as to seem like a longer day.  This understanding is apparently backed up in many other historical writings outside scripture or religion.

12 Then spoke Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel: 'Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Aijalon.' 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation had avenged themselves of their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

 

Statistics are only as accurate as the data used to compile them. Getting useful data on even our galaxy to make any assumptions on life elsewhere is purely conjecture. Again, we know we are here so life is possible. What that means in terms of life in our galaxy and the infinitely large Universe is statistically not possible to represent.

Statistics in this instance are claimed to not be exact, but life is also proven through what we do understand of the universe around us to be a highly improbable happening... Most stataticians who come up with the estimates claiming that life is highly unlikely... something like 10 to the power of 64 or worse claim that those estimates are generous for life and that it is theorized that the probability of life is in fact much worse.  As you said, we dont' have enough information to say for sure, so they lean on the generous side vs taking an estimate based on an unknown. 

Though these discussions are fun for me and I am enjoying them.  i fear we are losing focus of our intent for this forum which was not to convince each other of our own beleifs, but to have an educated runthrough of scripture.  I'm sure you'll have more comments on what I've said and I will gladly comment on any responses to them.  Let's not lose focus on our intent and purpose here.

RNA, one of the key complex molecules of life, closely related to DNA, has been shown to form spontaneously under conditions highly likely to be present on the early Earth, so if that sort of thing can happen in the time scales of a lab experiment, then it would be insane to say that the spontaneous emergence of life as-we-know-it on at least one of the probable 100's of billions of suitable planets in the Universe at least once in 10's of billions of years is unlikely.

All you need is a collection of self-replicating molecules such as RNA, so evolution can kick in, and away you go.

One would really have to know what exactly were the assumptions involved in those estimates you refer to.

BobSpence1 wrote:

RNA, one of the key complex molecules of life, closely related to DNA, has been shown to form spontaneously under conditions highly likely to be present on the early Earth, so if that sort of thing can happen in the time scales of a lab experiment, then it would be insane to say that the spontaneous emergence of life as-we-know-it on at least one of the probable 100's of billions of suitable planets in the Universe at least once in 10's of billions of years is unlikely.

All you need is a collection of self-replicating molecules such as RNA, so evolution can kick in, and away you go.

One would really have to know what exactly were the assumptions involved in those estimates you refer to.

So in other words, if yeast can activate itself (which it can under the right conditions)  then given the right amount of time, eventually bread will be baked without any outside help.  and to think, i was doing it the hard way.

Sorry for the sarcasm.  I do see your point there, but it makes just as much sense to me as my example above.  Sure, one part can form, but how does it come together to make a complex being?  Sure, most would say enough time will do it, but I guarantee if I leave active yeast and keep them alive so my GGGGGGGGG grandchildren can have bread, it just won't happen... no matter how many G's I decide it should take.  Someone would have to come by and supply the correct ingredients.  Temperature could be socked to convenience without outside help when given a large enough sample size. 

What many non-believing thinking minds fail to take into consideration is that it is understood by many that God designed "nature" to work on its own and is not dictated like a puppet by God.  This is what I believe along with many non affiliated Christ Followers. 

The Book of Judges

In Judges 1:8 the claim is made that Judah conquered Jerusalem and set it afire. In Judges 1:21 it indicates the Children of Benjamin did not drive out the Jebusites that lived in Jerusalem but lived amongst them to this day (the day this was written I’d guess). In 2 Samuel 5:6-10 David conquered Jerusalem. Perhaps the conquering by Judah and Benjamin is not quite accurate or the David myths are not in compliance with the Judges stories. Another thought may be that Jerusalem was relapsed back to the Jebusites repeatedly though this isn’t mentioned. In other words this is problematic.

The rest of Judges 1 continues the conquests of the land by the other tribes and apparently mutual cohabitation of the lands in many cases. Since the Canaanites continue in the lands obviously the writer needed to show that this occurred even though it was against the wishes of their god which the writer makes clear, again and again.

Judges 2 indicates the god was displeased as he sent a spokes-angel to Israel at Bochim who spoke to all of the children of Israel. His message was since they made treaties & truces with the inhabitants of the land that the god would not aide them in their removal and they would become thorns in their sides causing them to be led astray to worship their gods. Supposedly all the people wept at his words.

Was this a country wide appearance by the angel? Did he just use loudspeakers and broadcast to all of them since the text only indicates the angel spoke to them. The text indicates this was at Bochim, but if there were hundreds of thousands of them some sort of public address system would be needed. This claim doesn’t work for me for these reasons.

Joshua died as did all of the generation that knew the Lord and the next generation knew him not nor the works he had done for them.

They then did evil in the sight of the Lord (a comment that will become extremely boring and repetitive from here on, perhaps we need an abbreviated way to express it – EITSOTL). They forsook the God and served Baalim, one of many of the gods named Ba’al, & of course Ashtaroth – one of the many names for the Queen of Heaven – Yahweh’s consort or Asherah. Payback for being forsaked came in the form of the god working against them allowing their enemies to dominate.

Most people look for an excuse for failure other than taking the responsibility for their actions which is how I see the eternal whining about failure to eradicate the Canaanites.

Though the God was completely miffed at them he sent judges that would come forth to aide the people and bring them back into his fold. The people however choose the gods of the land over him which may have led the god further into his psychotic tendencies as continued rejection seems to induce that effect. The text is repetitive in regards to the Canaanites being allowed to remain within the sphere of influence of Israel. The text mentions repeatedly the god taking a hands off attitude in their regard.

This repetition continues into chapter 3 with detailing of the inhabitants that intermingle with Israel. It continues with a story of the judge Ehud who assassinates Eglon the king of Moab which enables Israel to subjugate Moab for at least 80 years.

Another judge named Shamgar is credited with killing 600 Philistines with an ox goad, apparently a weapon similar to a spear on one end and a heavy flattened chunk of metal on the other. Truly a nasty weapon though I’d think 600 men could just all fall on top of him thus preventing arm motion. Super powers are not mentioned in the short verse, so perhaps he killed them one at a time.

Chapter 4 is the adventures of Deborah & Barak which we discussed previously in regards to its discrediting the burning of Hazor and the death of king Jabin. I personally consider the account here to be more realistic.

Chapter 5 is the Song of Deborah considered to be one of the oldest stories in the Bible by scholars. In it is a retelling of the death of Sisera at the hand of Jael. It also discusses who was involved in the defense of Israel. Groups are mentioned that were not part of the supposed 12 or 13 tribes of Israel in the text. There are 11 groups mentioned: 8 were of the children of Israel: Reuben, Issachar, Zebulan, Naphtali, Asher, Dan,  Joseph & Benjamin; 3 were not: Gilead, Makir (or Machir), & Meroz. Meroz is cursed by the angel of the Lord for their failure of involvement (Judges 5:23) which appears to have worked as they are never mentioned again. As to what relationship they had to Israel isn’t mentioned.

 The tribe of Reuben apparently stayed home with their flocks (Judges 5:15-16). Gilead, not one of the tribes by tradition stayed beyond the Jordan. The tribe of Dan also stayed out of it by remaining on their ships. The tribe of Asher stayed on the coast and had no involvement. A group called Makir (KJV-Machir) also participated though they were not a tribe. No mention at all of the tribes of Simeon, Levi, Judah, Manasseh or Gad.

Perhaps Manasseh was actually represented as Machir (or Makir) is said to be the son of Manasseh. Gilead is said to be the son of Makir (see Numbers 26:29-30) Gilead is also an ancient name for the territory of Jordan.

Since the Song of Deborah is likely far older than the other books that describe the tribes these names may not have been associated with these groups until later on. Scholars consider this a possibility. The tribe of Dan may have had some relationship with the Sea Peoples, or ultimately perhaps the Phoenicians which have involvement with the northern kingdom later. All in all considering the previous stories up to now the Song of Deborah creates more questions than anything.

1-Jablin and Hazor –Is Jablin killed in this episode and Hazor seized or was it under Joshua.
2-Who was Meroz? . What happened to them?
3-What were the names of the tribes of Israel at this point in history?
4-Who was Gilead?
5-Who was Makir (or Machir)?
6-Why did Meroz disappear from reality (or history) and Dan, Asher, and Reuben who also stay out of the conflict continue in existence?
7-What of the tribes of Simenon, Levi, Judah, Manasseh and Gad regarding their lack of mention?
8-Were tribal names still under development and that is the explanation for name disparity?

Obviously your yeast analogy is a silly attempt at parody - yeast doesn't form itself out of stuff which doesn't contain DNA/RNA.

We are talking about the formation of a self-replicating molecule, the key ingredient for evolution to work. Evolution is how you get more complex forms, I'm sure you've heard of it. It has been demonstrated to work in decades, where colonies of bacteria have developed new capabilities. 

So whenever evidence is presented that direct intervention is not required, you move the goal-posts back and say God set up the preconditions for the apparently spontaneous emergence. No doubt if we show that those preconditions could arise without assistance from an even simpler, natural environment, you'll claim God was still needed to set up that environment. I see a pattern here, a consistent refusal to acknowledge the implications, that 'God' is not required to explain reality, leaving aside the problem that you have not explained why God exists...

BobSpence1 wrote:

Obviously your yeast analogy is a silly attempt at parody - yeast doesn't form itself out of stuff which doesn't contain DNA/RNA.

We are talking about the formation of a self-replicating molecule, the key ingredient for evolution to work. Evolution is how you get more complex forms, I'm sure you've heard of it. It has been demonstrated to work in decades, where colonies of bacteria have developed new capabilities. 

So whenever evidence is presented that direct intervention is not required, you move the goal-posts back and say God set up the preconditions for the apparently spontaneous emergence. No doubt if we show that those preconditions could arise without assistance from an even simpler, natural environment, you'll claim God was still needed to set up that environment. I see a pattern here, a consistent refusal to acknowledge the implications, that 'God' is not required to explain reality, leaving aside the problem that you have not explained why God exists...

I understand what it is.  You may remember me discussing how the Bible supports Evolution.  Evolution is not what is in question here.  my yeast parody still holds be it that the claim is that with RNA, life can form from there without intelligence just as bread could form from working yeast without intervention. 

I have not moved any goal posts... you're smarter than that.  using the analogy, you're claiming bread can expand and rise without outside help as long as the yeast is present.  I don't disagree, what i"m saying is you can't get bread in the first place without an inteligence putting the right ingredients together first and mixing them. 

in other words, sure things can evolve on their own.  The Bible doesn't deny this, but to start without evolving from anything without help is where the question really arises.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

The Book of Judges

In Judges 1:8 the claim is made that Judah conquered Jerusalem and set it afire. In Judges 1:21 it indicates the Children of Benjamin did not drive out the Jebusites that lived in Jerusalem but lived amongst them to this day (the day this was written I’d guess). In 2 Samuel 5:6-10 David conquered Jerusalem. Perhaps the conquering by Judah and Benjamin is not quite accurate or the David myths are not in compliance with the Judges stories. Another thought may be that Jerusalem was relapsed back to the Jebusites repeatedly though this isn’t mentioned. In other words this is problematic.

The rest of Judges 1 continues the conquests of the land by the other tribes and apparently mutual cohabitation of the lands in many cases. Since the Canaanites continue in the lands obviously the writer needed to show that this occurred even though it was against the wishes of their god which the writer makes clear, again and again.

Judges 2 indicates the god was displeased as he sent a spokes-angel to Israel at Bochim who spoke to all of the children of Israel. His message was since they made treaties & truces with the inhabitants of the land that the god would not aide them in their removal and they would become thorns in their sides causing them to be led astray to worship their gods. Supposedly all the people wept at his words.

Was this a country wide appearance by the angel? Did he just use loudspeakers and broadcast to all of them since the text only indicates the angel spoke to them. The text indicates this was at Bochim, but if there were hundreds of thousands of them some sort of public address system would be needed. This claim doesn’t work for me for these reasons.

Joshua died as did all of the generation that knew the Lord and the next generation knew him not nor the works he had done for them.

They then did evil in the sight of the Lord (a comment that will become extremely boring and repetitive from here on, perhaps we need an abbreviated way to express it – EITSOTL). They forsook the God and served Baalim, one of many of the gods named Ba’al, & of course Ashtaroth – one of the many names for the Queen of Heaven – Yahweh’s consort or Asherah. Payback for being forsaked came in the form of the god working against them allowing their enemies to dominate.

Most people look for an excuse for failure other than taking the responsibility for their actions which is how I see the eternal whining about failure to eradicate the Canaanites.

Though the God was completely miffed at them he sent judges that would come forth to aide the people and bring them back into his fold. The people however choose the gods of the land over him which may have led the god further into his psychotic tendencies as continued rejection seems to induce that effect. The text is repetitive in regards to the Canaanites being allowed to remain within the sphere of influence of Israel. The text mentions repeatedly the god taking a hands off attitude in their regard.

This repetition continues into chapter 3 with detailing of the inhabitants that intermingle with Israel. It continues with a story of the judge Ehud who assassinates Eglon the king of Moab which enables Israel to subjugate Moab for at least 80 years.

Another judge named Shamgar is credited with killing 600 Philistines with an ox goad, apparently a weapon similar to a spear on one end and a heavy flattened chunk of metal on the other. Truly a nasty weapon though I’d think 600 men could just all fall on top of him thus preventing arm motion. Super powers are not mentioned in the short verse, so perhaps he killed them one at a time.

Chapter 4 is the adventures of Deborah & Barak which we discussed previously in regards to its discrediting the burning of Hazor and the death of king Jabin. I personally consider the account here to be more realistic.

Chapter 5 is the Song of Deborah considered to be one of the oldest stories in the Bible by scholars. In it is a retelling of the death of Sisera at the hand of Jael. It also discusses who was involved in the defense of Israel. Groups are mentioned that were not part of the supposed 12 or 13 tribes of Israel in the text. There are 11 groups mentioned: 8 were of the children of Israel: Reuben, Issachar, Zebulan, Naphtali, Asher, Dan,  Joseph & Benjamin; 3 were not: Gilead, Makir (or Machir), & Meroz. Meroz is cursed by the angel of the Lord for their failure of involvement (Judges 5:23) which appears to have worked as they are never mentioned again. As to what relationship they had to Israel isn’t mentioned.

 The tribe of Reuben apparently stayed home with their flocks (Judges 5:15-16). Gilead, not one of the tribes by tradition stayed beyond the Jordan. The tribe of Dan also stayed out of it by remaining on their ships. The tribe of Asher stayed on the coast and had no involvement. A group called Makir (KJV-Machir) also participated though they were not a tribe. No mention at all of the tribes of Simeon, Levi, Judah, Manasseh or Gad.

Perhaps Manasseh was actually represented as Machir (or Makir) is said to be the son of Manasseh. Gilead is said to be the son of Makir (see Numbers 26:29-30) Gilead is also an ancient name for the territory of Jordan.

Since the Song of Deborah is likely far older than the other books that describe the tribes these names may not have been associated with these groups until later on. Scholars consider this a possibility. The tribe of Dan may have had some relationship with the Sea Peoples, or ultimately perhaps the Phoenicians which have involvement with the northern kingdom later. All in all considering the previous stories up to now the Song of Deborah creates more questions than anything.

1-Jablin and Hazor –Is Jablin killed in this episode and Hazor seized or was it under Joshua.
2-Who was Meroz? . What happened to them?
3-What were the names of the tribes of Israel at this point in history?
4-Who was Gilead?
5-Who was Makir (or Machir)?
6-Why did Meroz disappear from reality (or history) and Dan, Asher, and Reuben who also stay out of the conflict continue in existence?
7-What of the tribes of Simenon, Levi, Judah, Manasseh and Gad regarding their lack of mention?
8-Were tribal names still under development and that is the explanation for name disparity?

I lost my quick response on this originally as i had somehow gotten logged off.

I basically mentioned we can chalk up the questionable details to the same reasons we've brought up in the past about exaggerated details and lack of historical information regarding that time period.  So far I would still agree that none of konwn history contradicts these claims.

 

As far as the questions, it seems you have done a good job answering at least half of them... probably just as good as I could.  I will fwd them anyway to some sources and research them myself a bit to see if we can find out more be it they are good questions to ask.

The yeast analogy is still completely missing the point. we know that bread-making requires a special setup, because bread doesn't naturally occur in the wild. You could better refer to the wonderful shapes you see in limestone caves, or the growth of volcanoes, or of the patterns of river deltas, or the shapes of ice crystals, or all the other kinds of emergent structures which arise thru natural processes.

The demonstrated FACT that RNA, which is closely related to DNA, can form from simple non-living materials, under the sort of conditions that could easily have been present on an early Earth shows that a substance capable of evolving can indeed form from stuff which can't evolve. It formed in the lab, with nothing set up to steer it toward that particular molecule. They no doubt tried a number of variations of likely conditions, and in far less than the millions of years available for the original natural emergence, it happened. The environments tested were nowhere near as contrived as a bread-making setup.

Once you have something that can be duplicated, such as RNA, more copies can form, some with the inevitable small changes due to copying 'errors'. This is all you need for evolution.

 

Sure, we haven't filled in all the nuts-and-bolts of the process, but science continues to fill in the details of abiogenesis. It is not necessary to know exactly the sequence of events that did happen, just that key processes, such as formation of the key molecules such as RNA can happen without requiring really special and unlikely 'setups'. This has now been shown for one very important molecule. The 'ingredients' for RNA are known to be present in nature, and it does not require outside intervention for them to accumulate in some place that allows them to get together like this. The conditions are simply not that special, and there were millions of years and the range of conditions across the entire earth, from equator to poles, from the depths of the seas to the muddy shores, for this key process to start somewhere, sometime. It really isn't that complicated, as has now been demonstrated. No intelligence required, just time and chance.

Just what is your comprehension problem , cap?

And you still haven't explained how God's intelligence formed without outside help.

The scientific explanation shows that complexity can arise from simple precursors, so only requires the simplest possible starting point, whereas the assumption that a God is necessary to 'explain' complex stuff ultimately explains nothing, because you assume that something complex and intelligent can simply exist from the beginning.

I thought you knew me by now and so I didn't elaborate on all the details that came with being a Jesus follower. Yes, I was aware of the consequences involved for followers, I was raised by my mother a former Lutheran School teacher.

Actually you went completely global in your response and I really meant only what we were discussing in regards to the content of the stories of the OT we were discussing.

I have no intention of going into the details in regards to the subject matter of how to search out and determine if there is a god and if so which one. That would require terabytes to analyze.

As we are both relapsed Catholic heretics in essence, you because you depart from their true way and me because I consider their entire effort to be based in fantasyland neither of us likely have much trust in what the Vatican does.

I have no clue as to what the Vatican's real evidence is in the matter of supposed miracles. As they have an agenda, keep people in the faith, it is helpful to their cause when some events seem to have an origin that can't be explained.

Only in that since no one videotaped the Exodus, the Garden of Eden incidents, Adapa cursing the south wind, Adapa rejecting the bread & water of life offered by the god An, God flooding the world or was it the gods An & Enlil attempting to have quiet once more.

There are way more than 66 books that make up Bibles. Apparently you have decided the others are not to be considered supportive, as in Esdras perhaps because it suggests that Ezra rewrote the books as they were destroyed.

You know the deal, repetition of an observation by anyone is what will take something out of a theory or conjecture to general acceptance. You might have to go through extended study to gain the knowledge and ability to grasp certain concepts, such as how to make an integrated circuit. You know for example by seeing one it can be done, but you may lack the knowledge to make one yourself,

In the realm of religion however, there is nothing laying on the lab table to analyze and the instruction booklets aren't detailed enough for me to reproduce the claimed results. What exactly is the formula to move mountains again.

Yes, Enki made the first man out of clay with the help of the goddess Ninmah can't be discredited so we should move on.

Perhaps this is a subject for later on discussing why you are a Jesus Believer and not a Jew.

What you have is stories that are exactly similar to all the other stories of ancients.

Remove the ailments of Enki in Sumerian literature and the cure by the goddess which result in the lady of the rib Nina-ti (first woman) and you have a poor attempt at explanation of how man and woman originated. If you do the same to God in Genesis, removing his creation of Eve from Adam (in one of the explanations of how woman was made) you have an inadequate explanation. Perhaps both stories are scientific in some way in that regard. 

There are reports of UFOs and alien abductions as well.

This also applies to you as well. Whatever reasons you have that cause you to consider the god of the Jews to be real along with his son  versus any other ancient gods has distorted your thinking.

Other than Genesis 6 and 1 Enoch, I know of no other "fallen angels" in the Bible nor of any "war in Heaven" in the OT. The NT is not the subject here and the supposed war there in Revelation (Apocalypse in Douay-Rheims) is a future event. For there to be "fallen angels" as gods in the OT, point to verses where they fell in the OT, not in the NT. 1 Enoch seems to have captured and eliminated that group so where else?

We see this in very different perspectives.

All I have found in my research is insubstantial support for Yahweh as any more real than any other ancient god of antiquity.

I do not wish to debate evolution or intelligent design, been there done that, the metaphysical god is your way out and you'll surely take that option. No one knows what existed prior to the big bang and all from nothing is not what is claimed. In the world of God did it there is always the problem of his origin too. This is not the place to analyze that subject right now.

As per the quoted verse, I can only take it to mean what it says and no more. We will have to disagree here.

I would agree that the Bible, specifically the OT was a method for those of the belief in Judaism as a means and method to approach life. In that respect, none of it has to be based in reality.

I know they do estimates as you describe yet estimates are only that and not data points. Statistics requires actual data points and we have only one so far. Based on the composition of what we see on Earth and in our solar system we can make educated estimates or guesses but making any claim regarding statistical probability is wild ass guessing until you have more data points.
 

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

I have no intention of going into the details in regards to the subject matter of how to search out and determine if there is a god and if so which one. That would require terabytes to analyze.

I'm glad someone here can see that. Moving on

My point is the responses from a theist will be voluminous in their attempt to prove their gods exist. Yet, all they have is ancient writings that all make claims, no more. Enki is the Lord & master, no it's Zeus, Ba'al or Ra or Yahweh.  Their other evidence if you can call it that, is the feeling they have inside which they claim is the god affecting them.  All they simply have to do is produce their god on a lab table. So far none has done so.

Until and unless someone can do more than use 3rd, 4th, and 5th hand me down stories all ancient writing in regards to any god is just the culture's desire for there to be something more than what can be seen, touched and observed. 

A god claim requires the answer to where the god came from and why is it hiding. The evasion used that the god is not in our dimension of reality concedes that they have no clue any more than what was there before the Big Bang. It's pointless. What we do have to critique are all the ancient writings that all seem to do the same thing, justify why we are here. Yet, they don't really answer this question at all, they evade it with only the god knows. 

So is there a teapot orbiting Jupiter? Or does the god live on a planet on the far side of the Universe? Which god was that?

This becomes nothing but assertions, voluminous assertions.

 

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

A god claim requires the answer to where the god came from and why is it hiding. The evasion used that the god is not in our dimension of reality concedes that they have no clue any more than what was there before the Big Bang. It's pointless. What we do have to critique are all the ancient writings that all seem to do the same thing, justify why we are here. Yet, they don't really answer this question at all, they evade it with only the god knows. 

I've tried to explain, it's not that God's hiding, it's that you're not looking for him.  E.g.  There may be a pen sitting on a table when you enter a room.  You went into the room to find a peice of paper.  You looked on every surface of that room for paper then left.  When inquired about what you saw, the pen would probably never enter your list because you were never looking for it, you were looking for paper.  YOur initial response was that there was paper somewhere and maybe a few other larger objects you noticed.  You would never notice everything in that room because you never intended to observe all that.  You only looked for paper. 

My point is, I believe God is there in some way, shape, or form.  You don't notice him because you aren't looking for him, and for someone who doesn't know God, you dont' even know what you're looking for.  It'd be like someone sending you into the far future and asking you to find the temporal flux scanner.  You may notice a lot in the room, but you'll never find the temporal flux scanner because you haven't a clue on what that would look like.  

Most of the time God is not noticed because we aren't trying to look for him.  God is silent when appropriate as well as not present if you will.  The Bible says where 2 or more are gathered in His name, he will be with them.  There's no reason why i should not believe that, but to understand that is to also understand that if people are not gathered in His name, then he probably isn't there... or may not be. 

The extra factor comes in that he is a meta-physical being.  Of course someone who doesn't know God does what to the believer?  Challenges them to "produce God" in some way.  They of course are thinking in the physical sense when the believer understands that the request is completely illogical due to God's meta-physical existance.  A well-in-tune believer if you will could understand that God is present when he is with other people 'in God's name' and may even notice that.  The non-believer with them is still looking for a physical manifestation of God when again that would be an irrational expectation. 

This obviously goes much deeper than just historical claims or even the physical sciences.  its' also way beyond where this particular forum should be going.  I'm willing to discuss this further either on another forum with someone or if the creator of this forum feels it appropriate to do so on here.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

So is there a teapot orbiting Jupiter? Or does the god live on a planet on the far side of the Universe? Which god was that?

This becomes nothing but assertions, voluminous assertions.

I've heard the teapot orbiting Jupiter example and the skeptcism behind that.  This dives right into the statistical probability of the occurance and the sciences behind the understanding of an intelligence.  I have explained on another forum that the teapot is probable, but unlikely due to the fact that the teapot is a human invention and the only way for that to be the case would be for a human to make it happen, which as far as we all know, no one has tried such a feat.  It's probable though we haven't seen it because of the sheer size of Jupiter and the fact that we don't monitor objects that small orbiting Jupiter nor is Jupiter monitored around the clock or in timed periods.  There's no reason to do so, so if the teapot was orbiting, it's very likely that we'd miss it.

next step in our history walk?