First of all, in my opinion as an American, America is not the land of the free the patriots fought for.  It is simply a society in which people are happy to ignore a lack of "freedoms" because they are comfortable in their upper middle class life styles.

My answer to your questions is YES. Unfortunately, many believe America, to be "land of the free" "the greatest nation" etc. and most don't think anything can touch it. Anyone  who speaks the truth of America's downfall is promptly ignored.

Oh and something that entertains me, USA insists on calling itself "America" like it's the only nation in the Americas.

      I am guessing,  and only guessing that wkirby and rationalrabbit are young men, very young men.  I can assure you  that the U.S.of A. is the "land of the free"  and the  "greatest nation".  It is the country that all other nations strive to be. It is the country that other nationals want to immigrate to. It is the one nation that all other nations compare themselves to.

      It is also a target for all those who feel disenfranchised, isolated and depressed. They carry an attitude that says to them "strike out at the biggest target, the best target."  It is only a schoolyard-ish way of saying "I pretend that I am better then you and the rest of the world can pretend also,  for 2 seconds". After the 2 seconds  the childish bully is gone but America and it's ideals live on.

       I have been in meny countries in this world and I can not express in words exactly what foreigners think of America, but it is positive always, and puzzlement as to why Americans are not more chauvenistic about how good they have it. Americans think Britians have more freedoms,  surprise!!!!!!!!. Walking down the streets of most English citiy's is broadcast live and in colour to the local police station.  If Scotland Yard wants a DNA sample to trap a suspect they simply test everyone within a certain geographical area with the courts blessings.  Try that in the USA.

       Other nationals wonder why America puts up so much bullsh*t from insignificant pissants,  when they and their country's would not-----if they had Americas power.

        btw I am not American,  never was,   I just grew up there.

Balkoth - I'm not sure why you think rationalrabbit and I are the same person. I stated from the beginning I am not American and it seems rationalrabbit is.

Jeffrick - I am 37, married and have 2 early teenage children. While I don't think I am old, I'd hardly classify myself as young! I have travelled to every continent on earth, save Antarctica. I'm happy your view is from significantly different eyes than mine because I have not met countries that all want to be like it nor many nationals that want to migrate there. Don't get me wrong I have no doubt that there are and it's not my intention to bash this fine country.

My curiosity stems from the American friends I have (and there are a few) who are astounded by the fact I'm "openly Atheist" - I've even been accused as a  "rampaging Atheist", which I find curious because I have no particular desire to 'convert' anyone. most of my friends around the world know my opinion on religion yet it is only American naitonals that feel the need to send me links and question me about various religious ideas. I had no idea about Creationists or ID before one of my American friends asked me about it.

Now, after wondering about this and deciding that I must indeed be odd to have no religion or indeed desire to have a religion, I've trawled the net reading various articles, web posts and even studied up on Richard Dawkins and all roads lead to the US for Christian fundamentalism. I find it odd that the most fundamental nations on the planet seem intent on death and destruction (US and Middle East, Israel and Paestine, Rhwanda, Sierra Leone, the former Yugoslavia) all because 'my God is better than your God'. But I digress and apologise for doing so.

As per my original post, it seems to me that fundamental Christianity is becoming so pervasive is the USA that it's no longer possible to have an alternate point of view whether it's right or wrong. Church and state seem to be converging (as I understand it completely at odds with the desire of the founding fathers) and I'm curious as to whether I'm alone in this observation. It all seems very '1984' to me and I was hoping for some insight from a US national.

Thanks for the verification. For the record, I'm not even close to being that smart either!

While this sort of concern is popular I have to suggest you look into US history and compare then to now. A half century ago a crucifix and dailly prayers were common in public school classrooms. A century ago bible study was common in public schools. Before public schools all schools were sponsored by churches.

US expansion was not just "manifest destiny" but also establishing the "new" Zion which went with the shining city on a hill metaphor of the US as the new Jerusalem, the holy city of god. It was an overtly religious undertaking. If the Iraq war had occurred a century ago elected officials and military would openly talk of converting the musslemen to Christianity just as they did in the Philipine war. (Speaking of which the Philipine resistance back then were the ancestors of the Philipine rebels today. Rotsa Ruck in Iraq.)

What we see today is a vast improvement over the past. Any danger from religion has decreased rather than increased. Back when religion was strong and pervasive this "land of the free" remained free.

In specifics Creationism screwed up so badly the ID folks can't get a start. They are slapped down before they can begin to do any damage. And as I keep saying, I don't care what a burger flipper or a cop or a electrician thinks about evolution. The only people I care about getting it right are the professionals which means college. The whole thing started with the Christian Fundamentals movement some 90 years ago. They started with attacking the universities run by religious demoninations. They had their heads handed to them. Only then did they start meddling in the grade schools. So there is no reason to be concerned they will interfere with professional educations.

There is a major image problem for the US in the matter of religion. Given all the surveys and dire pronouncements and political statements and god in every speech one would expect people being hounded on the streets to go to some church.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Other than the rare door knockers, less than ten times in my 60+ years, there is no religion in public life that goes beyond words in speeches. The ID stuff is always blown out of proportion. I would guess there have been three or four school board issues in the last ten years. The US has literally thousands of school boards.

There is an old rule. Ignore the words and look at the actions.

The religious right is a minority in the US.  They just make more noise than most.  Their numbers and power is actually waning. 

They continually lose  court case after court case.  The outside worlds perception that the US is overwhelmed by religious zealotry is just that.  Perception. 

The number of non theistic Americans has increased dramatically over the last decade.  In part due to the behavior of the religious right.   Just as our perceptions of other countries are skewed by the more vocal elements in their society.

The US has been and will always be a secular nation. 

So, you are questioning my opinion based on the fact that you think I'm untraveled and inexperienced?  It is just my opinion, based on what I've seen, read and experienced in my life.  I'll give you a little bio, so that you can decide for yourself whether I'm full of shit. 

46 Years old.  Retired US Military after 25 years.  I spent a year in Kuwait recently and just got back from South America.  Currently living in Arkansas.  PhD in Sociology, with minors in Psychology and Anthropology.   Atheist since birth and have never been indoctrinated in any religious mythology. 

Many parts of the country are rural and not exceptionally religious.  The Northwest US for example. 

My point was that the perception of religious activity is not as great as the actuality.  The Moral Majority is passed it's heyday.  The far right religious movement is losing members daily due to death from old age. 

I also distinguish between those who are nominally religious and those who are zealots. 

If people are just going to condescend to me when replying, rather than responding to my points, then I really have no interest in continuing to be a member of this board.

I too have noticed what appears to be a distinct patronizing tone in responses to certain posts, particularly from the more senior members of this site.

Having a contrary opinion is appreciated, being condescending about it is not. Having said that, it is a blog not a singles bar so I wouldn't expect people to be too nice.

For what it's worth, your comments (as with many of the others on this thread) have helped my understanding of the questions I have.

Living in certain areas of the country may give people the idea that the religious right are just a pesky minority.  However there are other areas in the south and the Midwest where they dominate society. 

To sit there and think that we the secular people have won against them is to ignore facts.

Sarah Palin is the best example of that.  It shows that it only takes one bad apple to get power, before they make significant inroads to creating their "Christian Nation."  It almost happened people!  You think some religious zealot wouldn't have tried to take out Mccain if it meant one of theirs would be leader of the free world?  That's not even considering Mccain's age, and that his health could have turned at any time under the stress.  Let's not forget about Huckabee either.  He wasn't successful, but next time a huge zealot like that comes along I'll bet they aren't as upfront about their fundamentalism.

Then we have the fundamentalist training camps (Regent U, Liberty U, Oral Roberts U etc.) pumping out lawyers and future politicians.  Regent U alone claimed to have 150 alumni placed in W.s white house.  I think it's Liberty U that has a full replica of the Supreme Court in their law school specifically for the purpose of training their zealots to take over the legislature!  Regent U has begun to focus on educators.  That's right they want to place as many fundies as they can in your children's schools, and school boards!

There are other fronts they are winning on as well.  Such as the language we use, and what is socially acceptable to talk about.  They continually succeed in putting words and phrases into popular culture.  They also have the advantage of the prevailing attitude that to question someones faith is some low-down, scummy, below the belt act perpetrated on the poor victim who is being questioned.

How about the "vagina clown car movement" and the homeschoolers?  I have a couple friends that were raised in that environment, and by their own admission it is more widespread than people realize.  It was the home school community in Iowa that successfully propelled Huckabee into the race in a grassroots effort BTW! 

I could easily sit here for another hour typing about this.  It just seams profoundly naive to think that the religious right is losing, and therefor we have no reason to worry.

If one were to contradict his sources one would have to ask for some.

If you count Cincinnati as the midwest and northern Virginia and central Florida as the south then I have lived all my 63 years in those locations and know of no basis for claims about an unusual pervasiveness of religion in the midwest and south. Those locations would be 22 years, 25 years and 16 years respectively. I have also done extensive and frequent business travel to New England, New York and So. California and haven't noticed anything in particular in those places either.

So if there is "correction" I see no legitimate correction as nothing matches my experience. Now if someone wants to introduce an anecdote about Omaha or Plant City more power to them. But anecdotes have no standing. No individual's experience rises above anecdote.

On the other hand researchers primarily use properly designed surveys. I would assume a person with credits in Sociology and Anthropology would be familiar with such studies and can speak to them even though they are not directly referenced.

Surveys have a delightfuly worthless aspect to them. How important is religion in your life? That only leads to important in relation to what? which leads to n! possible answers for n things to compare it to. Imporant in what way? is an essay question.

I'd agree except there is no other society which is more rational than the USA to take it's place as a Superpower.

Look at the rest of the world(Islamic fundamentalism in mid east and Africa, Socialism that rewards failure/punishes success in Europe and Canada, lack of human rights/creative freedom in China, corruption in Russia, overpopulation in India, Catholicism and political corruption in Latin America). So who would step up and take our place?

So we'll remain the superpower as long as we have the most superior military.

In order to contradict sources with sources, sources have to be provided in the first place, and they weren't. Hence my point stands.

Having looked at the religious history of the US I see the US evolving away from that. The US general in charge of our war in the Philippines nearly a century ago openly spoke of doing god's work while he was conducting the war. Imagine Gen. Patreus talking about doing gods work in Iraq. A century ago public schools included prayer and bible reading.

The US started publicly religous but privately Deist at worst. They continued the old traditions. By all accounts Ben Franklin fully supported and spoke up for the Quakers. Yet when asked about Jesus he said he never felt compelled to examine the matter. Old habits die hard. While we cannot get into the heads of our ancestors more than a generation or two back this appears to view a religion as a fraternal organization whose members agree to specific things.

The 1820s brought a widespread christian revival movement that was most popular with the post revolution immigrants. That is where things started to go downhill. The last gasp of it was the post WWI Christian Fundamentals movement whose greatest accomplishment was the Scopes trial.

I agree we have a long way to go to recover from this. I am aware preachers on the Jesus channel claim tens of millions of followers. But the numbers they give for their followers is static. If they were spreading the number would be increasing. Static numbers indicate it is a passing phase of a fraction of the population.

And as to the long way to go, the increase in the number of atheists has been in the news. If we do not view that as successfully spreading atheism but simply one end of the curve of interest in religion with home-grown Ayatollahs at the other end of the curve then tens of million around the average of the curve have shifted away from religion.

I tend more towards the bell curve idea as I have noticed no increase in atheists to promote their ideas. We are still disorganized people who congregate in places like this.