Inventing the Jewish Race
Offline This is a complement to the invention of the Jewish people. This also gives a concise summary of how the myth of a jewish "race" got started. The author does make a mistake in referring to Jews as an ethnic group. Anyone wishing to claim they are needs be prepared to describe their ethnic characteristics which are independent of religion. They get desperate. Once some nerfbrain tried to argue that their ethnic characteristics became their religion and therefore only an antisemite™ would disagree with him.
http://www.counterpunch.org/portis12262008.html
Weekend Edtion December 26-28, 2008
How the Zionists Created "Races" in Palestine
Changing the Ethnic Vocabulary
By LARRY PORTIS
Between the Balfour Declaration in 1917 and the creation of the United Jewish Agency in 1929, the evolution of political vocabulary in relation to ethnic groups in Palestine accompanied the emergence of an increasingly difficult geopolitical problem.
At the time, notions of nationhood were at the center of all questions of foreign affairs. Although touted as a solution to collective conflicts in general, national self-determination was at best a tenuous idea that tended to obscure the re-composition of empires or, at least, the transfer of their control from one powerful entity to another.
Spokespersons for the Zionist movement intervened actively in the US popular press during this period of transition between the defeat of the Turkish Empire (end of 1917) and the eventual implementation of the British Mandate in Palestine (April 1920). This journalistic activity was particularly important in the United States because financial donations from the large and relatively wealthy Jewish population in the US were vital to the Zionist project in Palestine.
Contrary to predictions of stability under the British Mandate, British control was inaugurated by riots caused by increased Jewish immigration. In July 1921, after one year of the new British administration, the Literary Digest noted that fears concerning the Zionist project were articulated in Palestine and also in neighboring countries and in the United States. Reviewing reactions to the events in Palestine in Arab-American publications, the Digest found, as did Arab newspapers in the Middle East, that there was a careful distinction drawn between attitudes concerning Jewish people and those concerning Zionism. In Al-Bayan, a Syrian newspaper published in New York, it was feared that there was much misrepresentation “as to the real ground of opposition in Palestine to Zionism”. This concern was echoed by the Meraat-ul-Gharb (New York) asserting that “the people of Palestine do not hate the Jews, but hate Zionism.” The Syrian Eagle (New York) found it ironic that it was the Palestinians who were being accused of religious fanaticism when it was the Zionists who were immigrating to Palestine out of “religious sentimental” motivations. The editorialist then asked: “Has it come to this, that we must plead with England for possession of our own country, and prove to a credulous world that Palestine really does not belong to the Zionists?”
Although it was never explicitly stated, confusion existed over how to refer to the members of different ethnic groups in Palestine. In an article in the Literary Digest of November 5, 1921, for example, reference is editorially made to “Arab Mohammedans”, “native Christians” and “Jewish colonists”. But this circumspection is in contrast to the ethnic characterizations of Chaim Weizmann, president of the Zionist Congress, who in the same article referred simply to “Jew and Arab”, or to those the British High Commissioner for Palestine, Sir Herbert Samuel, quoted as approving “the legitimate aspirations of the Jewish race (my italics)”. Samuel (who was Jewish) tended to reduce the population of Palestine to “the Jew”, on the one hand and “the Arab”, on the other.
Even as he attempted to allay the fears of the non-Jewish population of Palestine, Samuel systematically employed a schematic vocabulary that obscured perceptions of the situation. For him, the “Jewries of the world” were simply attempting to establish their home “in the land which was the political, and has always been the religious, center of their race.” Several years later, the political secretary of the World Zionist Organization, Conrad Stein, castigated the “few mischief makers” who were “doing their best to keep the two races in Palestine apart.” (my italics)
In 1926, an anonymous “Friendly Visitor” wrote in the magazine Living Age about the “racial situation” in Palestine stating that “up to the present the two races are living side by side without intermingling” explaining that such exclusiveness was good because the Zionist policy was not to exploit Arab labor, but rather to encourage Jews to work in all sectors of the economy. The idea was that separate development, avoiding ethnic segmentation of the work force, would lead to more rapid improvement of Arab living standards: “as soon as the Arabs' standard of living has risen and the wages of the two races are equalized such discrimination will automatically disappear.” In addition, Jews must be encouraged to do agricultural labor, for “[n]othing but agriculture can change the Jews from a nation of traders into a nation with a normal distribution of its people into all branches of productive labor. The movement to the farm is the corner stone of racial regeneration.”
Zionist spokespersons incessantly emphasized that the Jews were a separate and distinct people or race. At the same time, the Muslim and Christian Palestinians were also referred to as a racial group: the “Arabs”. Less and less were the different participants in the drama designated as Europeans and Palestinians, or Jews, Muslims, Christians or Druzes. Increasingly, only two groups seemed to be present: the “Jews” and the “Arabs”. In only a few years, non-Jewish representatives of the region would also begin to speak in terms of “race” when referring to the different ethnic groups in Palestine.
Arnold Toynbee, the famous historian, raised a related question in The New Republic in 1922. For him, the trouble in Palestine lay in the imposition of a western idea — nationalism — in a region culturally unprepared for it. Palestine, regardless of its religious complexity, was in fact “a comparatively homogeneous country”. But a western political idea called “nationality” and the rise of national feeling in Palestine has “produced two effects. On the one hand, the Moslem and Christian Arabs began to feel themselves one with their Arab neighbors, especially with those of Syria, from which Palestine is divided by no physical boundaries. On the other hand, the Palestinian Jews, especially the agricultural colonists, and, still more, a majority of the Jewish ‘Dispersion’ all over the world, began to look forward to making Palestine eventually their own in the sense in which the United States belongs to the American people or France to the French.” Toynbee observed that the commitment of the British, United-Statesian, French and Italian governments to the “hazardous experiment” of the implantation of Zionism in Palestine would lead to more and more explosions of violence.
By the end of 1922 the future of social conflict within Palestine, and the uses of Palestine by powerful states, had been thoroughly discussed. The nature of Zionism as a nationalist political movement, its uses by the governments of the major western countries, the determining events in the creation of an almost intractable political situation, all of these dimensions of the “question of Palestine” were well known by educated readers. The way towards the eventual creation of a Jewish state seems to have been traced out well in advance of the actual event.
By the late 1920s, outbreaks of ethnic violence in Palestine tended to reinforce the idea that the population was divided into two irreconcilable camps. One result was the attenuation of disagreements between Jewish people over the legitimacy of the Zionist project. The creation of a reorganized Jewish Agency supportive of the colonization of Palestine, but not declaredly Zionist, seems to be related to the situation.
In November 1928, the Literary Digest cited a variety of Jewish-American periodicals (such as the American Hebrew in New York, the Jewish Tribune in New York, the Jewish Exponent in Philadelphia, and the Canadian Jewish Chronicle in Montreal) in which various “non-Zionist” spokespersons expressed their solidarity with the Jewish immigration to Palestine. At a conference in New York organized by the jurist Louis Marshall, Marshall proclaimed: “there are no longer Zionists and non-Zionists. We are all Jews together.” “American Israel”, ran the conclusion, “is at last united in a ‘pact of glory’ […] for the up-building of Palestine.” Here, the use of the term “Israel” in reference to the Jewish population of the United States is significant for its “national” implications. The expression “Israel”, used to designate a people seen as a nation, will eventually denote the nation as concretized in the “nation state”.
When the United Jewish Agency was officially formed at the Zionist congress at Zurich in August 1929, its creation announced a new phase in the conflict over the destiny of Palestine.
The new Agency created at the Zionist meeting was composed of one-half non-Zionist members. The importance was that these non-Zionists promised to support the pursuit of the Jewish projects in Palestine, projects that, in fact, are properly called “Zionist”. But now the Jewish colonization of Palestine was no longer presented as a specifically Zionist project, but rather as a “Jewish” aspiration. Consequently, the demographic transformation of Palestine no longer expressed the same degree of dissension among Jews.
To refer to “Zionists” would henceforth tend to be perceived as an implicitly critical assessment of the project itself. The new political correctness was not the word “Zionist”, which implied a secular political movement in favor of a particular ethnic group, but rather a new application in this particular political context of the word “Jewish”. Replacing “Zionist” by “Jewish” consensually united all members of the confessional group in the same project by agreeing to not to disagree over modes of expression and ultimate goals.
It is possible that the new consensus among non-Palestinian (European and North-American) Jews, symbolized by the United Jewish Agency, contributed to the tragic events accompanying its emergence. The inter-ethnic violence of August 1929 may have been directly related to the creation of the United Jewish Agency. This is the opinion of the well-known writer John Gunther, who was not unfriendly to the Zionist cause. According to him, “the formation of the Agency was a direct factor contributing to the riots, because it incited outbursts of chauvinism by Jews in Palestine, and this led to Arab retaliation.”
Whatever the case, the decade of the 1920s saw the emergence of ethnic hostilities in Palestine that would not be resolved by the eventual creation of the state of Israel. The dilemma of “national” identifications linked to racialist notions is a field for political exploitation that has remained all-too-fertile and tempting for demagogues of all persuasions. In this particular case, by incessantly juxtaposing the two terms, “Jew” and “Arab”, often in a context of comparative evaluation detrimental to the latter, a confusion was created between, on the one hand, religious confession and, on the other hand, culture regardless of religion.
From a Zionist standpoint, such terminological amalgamation was perhaps necessary in order to unite Palestinian Jews and the new arrivals. The “Jew-Arab” dichotomy was also convenient in that it drove a wedge between Jewish and non-Jewish Palestinians. The problem was (and is) that the terms refer to populations, real people, who were encouraged to see themselves and “the others” as different in some qualitative way.
Is not surprising that the term “race”— that in the nineteenth century had connotations that were as much cultural as racial — should be used in reference to the general characteristics of both broadly defined groups. It is unfortunate, however, that “Jews” and “Arabs” came to be thought of as such separate peoples. All the old “orientalist” prejudices of the nineteenth century, including anti-Semitism, could now be applied in a new geopolitical environment in which great-power interests would, once again, be justified by the principle of national self-determination, but this time by helping to create a national entity where the people designated as its active population were not only a minority but also recent immigrants. It was a project legitimized in great part by the idea that “Arab” populations were incapable or unready to assume responsibility for their political destinies.
After the interwar period the term “race” was avoided in reference to the “Jewish-Arab” conflict (because of the prominence of racist ideology in the carrying out of the genocide perpetrated by the Nazi regime against Jews and others). But are racialist connotations excluded from such terminology? Certainly not. Even after the creation of the state of Israel and the emergence of the new mode of referring to the conflict as “Arab-Israeli”, invidious connotations remain attached to the term “Arab”. This is, alas, but one example of how imprecise or misleading language is a tool for political manipulation that holds out the promise of instilling tenacious prejudices, all in the interest of ethnic cleansing.
Israel was created on this basis, and its culture and law are infused with racist presumptions. The very idea of a “Jewish state”, the low-intensity ethnic cleansing operative as state policy, the “law of return” designating Israel as “homeland” for all “Jews” regardless of their existing citizenship or their geographical origins, the biological definition of the term “Jew” (those who are born of a “Jewish” mother), the genocidal practices of control and repression inflicted upon those uprooted from their land and homes in the territories appropriated in 1948 and those living in the territories occupied in June 1967 (see the UN Convention on Genocide for the definition), the second-class status suffered by non-Jewish Palestinians in Israel, all of these things stem from a racialist conception of ethnicity. The Zionist movement was founded on this conception, and in spite of wordplay or wishful thinking the Zionist state continues its long-term project unabated.
Larry Portis is a professor of American studies at the University of Montpellier, France and a founding member of Americans for Peace and Justice in Montpellier. He can be contacted at [286][email protected]
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline What the fuck?! Is A-Nony-Mouse really denying that the Holocaust happened? I don't think that he has directly said "no, it never happened," but he does seem to deny it. Can you tell us clearly yes or no? You seem to be trying to dodge the question.
Here it is: Did the Holocaust (the systematic killing of around 12 million people, of them half were Jews killed only for being Jewish) happen? This is a simple 'yes' or 'no' question. Your simple answer to this question interests me greatly.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
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Offline What the fuck?! Is A-Nony-Mouse really denying that the Holocaust happened? I don't think that he has directly said "no, it never happened," but he does seem to deny it. Can you tell us clearly yes or no? You seem to be trying to dodge the question.
Here it is: Did the Holocaust (the systematic killing of around 12 million people, of them half were Jews killed only for being Jewish) happen? This is a simple 'yes' or 'no' question. Your simple answer to this question interests me greatly.
Thank you for playing The Holy Holocaust is a Religion game. You do well in demonstrating it is.
In response to a clear expression of the consequence of the official number given by the Government of Israel. I give the most likely explanation, Israel exaggerates. Rather than address the issue you, in the best tradition of Torquemada, demand an Auto-de-Fey. I am certain you can google the term. You can even get a feel for the meaning if you remember History of the World, Part 1. (You can't Torquemada anything.)
If I were asked that question under oath in court with a real penalty for perjury there is only one answer I could give. "How the hell could I know? I wasn't even born then." I cannot KNOW anything which I have not personally observed. Neither can anyone else. One may know that others have said something or claimed something but that is not knowledge of the thing itself. At this point some wannabe solipcist will opine that no one can know anything even if they see it thinking it is clever not realizing it in fact supports what I am saying.
Whether or not a thing occurred, like the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus cannot be KNOWN to have occurred except by personal observation. Demanding a statement from personal knowledge for a thing unwitnessed is calling for a profession of faith.
You can rephrase the question in several ways such that it could be truthfully answered in court but none of them have any bearing upon what in fact did happen. Whether or not one believes a thing happened is a quite different matter. I am reminded of the Roswell crash as an obvious example of what is believed by a greater percentage of Americans than the extermination part of the holy holocaust.
Was there a crash at Roswell? I was in diapers at the time. The government said first a weather balloon "crashed" and about 15 years ago that an intelligence gathering balloon "crashed" there. Did a balloon of some kind "crash" there? I have no idea. I only know the government said there was. However the greater percentage referred to above believes a flying saucer crashed there which is something else entirely.
If you are wise enough to have discounted "hearsay" regarding the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus why are you not wise enough to view everything you have not personally witnessed in that same light? If you choose to give credibility to people who tell stories but who never testified under oath with a credible penalty for perjury as to exactly what you are reciting in the particulars of your statement that is your choice and yours alone just as it is the personal choice of everyone who makes that choice. There is no group consolation, no group think in making that choice. It is always up to each individual alone to make. Going along with the crowd is for believers.
Or am I showing you the way to being born again and receiving the Holy Spirit? A shame if so.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline I have been reading you guys all day and I find as the evening progresses we all become less civil. Except me, I just spel worsr.
Point taken.
In the manner of an apologia I point out I am responding to a person who is both defending the Nazi idea that Jews are a race and calling me, who says Jews are not a race, a Nazi. I realize he is bewildered, perhaps terminally so, but you can see there is no possible rational response to a nazi calling other people nazi for not agreeing with his nazi ideas of race. It is just plain stupid.
Lack of civility arises from the impossibility of a rational response to such nonsense.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline I find it interesting that followers of the holocaust religion are unable to agree among themselves as to exactly what happened and refrain from disagreement as deligently as Christians at a World Council of Churches convention.
What is so interesting about that? Eye witnesses are rarely in complete agreement with things. But since you bring it up, what discrepancies are you seeing, exactly? It helps if we know which lie you are using.
I also find it amusing that holocaustians cannot cite a single professional publication by a degreed historian on the extermination part of their holy holocaust while firmly believing it has been established by such historians. As to amateur historians, there is not a single mention of this extermination in DeGaulle's, Eisenhower's or Churchill's histories of WWII. Being given a "chair" in holocaust history does not turn a religion teacher like Debbie Lipstadt into a degreed historian.
Ummmm, Robert Wolfe? You know, former senior US National Archivist and specialist on German war documents? But of course this lie is pointless since Germany opened up their own records in 2006. But I guess that deceitful racist maggots don't care about such trivial facts, nor would the douchebags care to explain why those records were sealed to begin with. Fortunately, we have honest historians willing to tell the truth. In 1955 the Bonn Agreement was signed. This prevented information which could harm Nazi victims and their families from being released. The International Tracing Service sat on the records until 1998, when they decided that enough time had passed. Germany on the other hand, has opposed opening the records until recently. Unfortunately for lying, murder supporting pieces of shit, those records are now available to everyone, firsthand accounts from the Nazis themselves. Gosh darn it! Those damned Germans went and sold out the White Aryan Nation! What with the release of those records, it is now virtually impossible to deny the holocaust, what with all those people who can actually read running around and all. But heck, you can always round us up and shoot us along with all those other undesirables once you take over, right? Then you can re-write history any way you like, that is assuming that any of you can actually write.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1143498876285&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
You know what I find amusing? Pictures of that white trash Eva Braun and that very Semitic looking guy with a stupid moustache lying dead in a bunker. What a great day in human history that was! Every time a racist dies, the world becomes a better place.
All I know about numbers is that in 2004 Israel formally stated that there were one million holocaust survivors still alive in that year.www.iht.com/articles/2005/04/20/news/holocaust.php
If one has not subborned his knowledge of algebra and arithmetic to the religion then it means there were 5.1 million holocaust survivors alive in 1945 if those to young to work were not killed and Jews continued to have children as though there was no war at all. If however those under 13 were killed for an inability to work then this same elementary calculation says there were 27.1 million holocaust survivors in 1945. Note there were only 13 million Jews in the world in 1938 and 9 million in Europe.
This problem is most easily resolved by assuming the official Israeli number, generated to support law suits for reparations, is deliberately exaggerated and thus it leads to hugely greater numbers of survivors in 1945 than there really were. I am inclined towards this explanation as the Israeli government had to have known what the one million implies as to the 1945 population.
As in any religion any application of arithmetic to sacred matters is blasphemous. Even so whereas the same arithmetic that works in every other aspect of the real world it does not apply to the religion.
We already knew that skinheads couldn't read very well, but this does drive that point home. The article that young Adolf offered states that " At the beginning of 2004, 1,092,000 Holocaust survivors were still living worldwide, about half of them in Israel. About 10 percent of survivors die each year,..."
But just three 1 sentence paragraphs above, apparently too many sentences to hold his short attention span, it also clearly states that the article is referring to both Jewish and non-Jewish holocaust survivors. Nowhere does it say or even imply that all of the survivors are Jewish. The survivors include Roma, Slavs, ethnic Poles, Soviet POW's and civilians, homosexuals, Freemasons, and the mentally and physically handicapped. This makes for quite a few more survivors than the liar would have you believe, but hey, you can't expect someone to be honest while denying reality, so we should forgive the racially impure little mongrel.
I fully expect you and other followers of this religion to condemn the calculations while at the same time not being able to bring yourselves to the blasphemy of actually "testing" the faith by presenting your own calculations and results for the number of survivors in 1945.
Kind of hard to do the math without all the figures. As the article makes it perfectly clear that the reparations were being paid to ALL survivors, both Jew and non Jew, we have to have the total survivor population in order to present the numbers. You seem to gloss over this important fact in your increasingly desperate attempt to deny reality.
Equally strange, people who pretend to have the cajones, the moral courage, to challenge a belief in god and to stand bravely against the entire believing world are wimps when it comes to the slightest question about the holocaust religion. Even the miracle of a little girl wandering eastern Europe protected by wolves is not to be questioned. Miracles are sacred and not to be questioned.
As the holocaust is a historical fact, confirmed by Nazi records, survivors, and military personel around the world, you can't honestly call it a religion. But then again, you don't seem to hold honesty in any high regard. Nice try, attempting to convert atheists to your lie by pretending the holocaust is a religion, but unfortunately for you, atheists are more intelligent than skinheads, and we have a long history of spotting bullshit.
As the rest of your post is nothing more than empty propaganda in a sick attempt to convert followers, I won't soil the board by reposting it here. You have proven yourself once again a liar and a racist. I consider it my duty, nay, the duty of all atheists, to confront falsity wherever they may find it. I dare say that they can find as much that is false in your spewings of racial hatred as they can find in any holy text.
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
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Offline A_Nazi_Mouse wrote:I find it interesting that followers of the holocaust religion are unable to agree among themselves as to exactly what happened and refrain from disagreement as deligently as Christians at a World Council of Churches convention.What is so interesting about that? Eye witnesses are rarely in complete agreement with things. But since you bring it up, what discrepancies are you seeing, exactly? It helps if we know which lie you are using.
Interesting really. For the first time I pay attention to this website refreshing it in the background while doing my usual thing and I find you and spin hanging onto it as though you have nothing better to do in life. Be that as it may ...
What is important is that anyone involved in forensic work will tell you eye witnesses are the least reliable evidence of all. That is why forensics is so critically important. In this world of CSI everything one has to wonder why everyone has not learned eyewitness testimony is worthless.
In this group of atheists one has to wonder why they do not take the word of the eyewitnesses Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Sholomo.
A_Nazi_Mouse wrote:I also find it amusing that holocaustians cannot cite a single professional publication by a degreed historian on the extermination part of their holy holocaust while firmly believing it has been established by such historians. As to amateur historians, there is not a single mention of this extermination in DeGaulle's, Eisenhower's or Churchill's histories of WWII. Being given a "chair" in holocaust history does not turn a religion teacher like Debbie Lipstadt into a degreed historian.Ummmm, Robert Wolfe? You know, former senior US National Archivist and specialist on German war documents? But of course this lie is pointless since Germany opened up their own records in 2006. But I guess that deceitful racist maggots don't care about such trivial facts, nor would the douchebags care to explain why those records were sealed to begin with. Fortunately, we have honest historians willing to tell the truth. In 1955 the Bonn Agreement was signed. This prevented information which could harm Nazi victims and their families from being released. The International Tracing Service sat on the records until 1998, when they decided that enough time had passed. Germany on the other hand, has opposed opening the records until recently. Unfortunately for lying, murder supporting pieces of shit, those records are now available to everyone, firsthand accounts from the Nazis themselves. Gosh darn it! Those damned Germans went and sold out the White Aryan Nation! What with the release of those records, it is now virtually impossible to deny the holocaust, what with all those people who can actually read running around and all. But heck, you can always round us up and shoot us along with all those other undesirables once you take over, right? Then you can re-write history any way you like, that is assuming that any of you can actually write.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1143498876285&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
You know what I find amusing? Pictures of that white trash Eva Braun and that very Semitic looking guy with a stupid moustache lying dead in a bunker. What a great day in human history that was! Every time a racist dies, the world becomes a better place.
You can show you are not an idiot when you can quote from those records regarding the extermination of however many millions you wish to believe.
As for the dead racist, you are defending the Nazi idea that Jews are a race. You are terminally bewildered trapped in a world not your own.
A_Nazi_Mouse wrote:All I know about numbers is that in 2004 Israel formally stated that there were one million holocaust survivors still alive in that year.www.iht.com/articles/2005/04/20/news/holocaust.php
If one has not subborned his knowledge of algebra and arithmetic to the religion then it means there were 5.1 million holocaust survivors alive in 1945 if those to young to work were not killed and Jews continued to have children as though there was no war at all. If however those under 13 were killed for an inability to work then this same elementary calculation says there were 27.1 million holocaust survivors in 1945. Note there were only 13 million Jews in the world in 1938 and 9 million in Europe.
This problem is most easily resolved by assuming the official Israeli number, generated to support law suits for reparations, is deliberately exaggerated and thus it leads to hugely greater numbers of survivors in 1945 than there really were. I am inclined towards this explanation as the Israeli government had to have known what the one million implies as to the 1945 population.
As in any religion any application of arithmetic to sacred matters is blasphemous. Even so whereas the same arithmetic that works in every other aspect of the real world it does not apply to the religion.
Desdenova wrote:We already knew that skinheads couldn't read very well, but this does drive that point home. The article that young Adolf offered states that " At the beginning of 2004, 1,092,000 Holocaust survivors were still living worldwide, about half of them in Israel. About 10 percent of survivors die each year,..."But just three 1 sentence paragraphs above, apparently too many sentences to hold his short attention span, it also clearly states that the article is referring to both Jewish and non-Jewish holocaust survivors. Nowhere does it say or even imply that all of the survivors are Jewish.
How does this address the 27 million holocaust survivors alive in 1945? Please be specific in your answer. The ICRC reported only about 200,000 being released from liberated camps. What does survivor mean?
Desdenova wrote:The survivors include Roma, Slavs, ethnic Poles, Soviet POW's and civilians, homosexuals, Freemasons, and the mentally and physically handicapped. This makes for quite a few more survivors than the liar would have you believe, but hey, you can't expect someone to be honest while denying reality, so we should forgive the racially impure little mongrel.Please present your calculations.
Desdenova wrote:A_Nazi_Mouse wrote:I fully expect you and other followers of this religion to condemn the calculations while at the same time not being able to bring yourselves to the blasphemy of actually "testing" the faith by presenting your own calculations and results for the number of survivors in 1945.Kind of hard to do the math without all the figures. As the article makes it perfectly clear that the reparations were being paid to ALL survivors, both Jew and non Jew, we have to have the total survivor population in order to present the numbers. You seem to gloss over this important fact in your increasingly desperate attempt to deny reality.
I have done all the math with the available figures. Where are your calculations? It is elementary demographics.
Desdenova wrote:A_Nazi_Mouse wrote:Equally strange, people who pretend to have the cajones, the moral courage, to challenge a belief in god and to stand bravely against the entire believing world are wimps when it comes to the slightest question about the holocaust religion. Even the miracle of a little girl wandering eastern Europe protected by wolves is not to be questioned. Miracles are sacred and not to be questioned.As the holocaust is a historical fact, confirmed by Nazi records, survivors, and military personel around the world, you can't honestly call it a religion. But then again, you don't seem to hold honesty in any high regard. Nice try, attempting to convert atheists to your lie by pretending the holocaust is a religion, but unfortunately for you, atheists are more intelligent than skinheads, and we have a long history of spotting bullshit.
Yes it is a historical fact. So also is the birth of the Son of God an historical fact among believers in that faith. All history is fact. Even though we do not know his name an eyewitness recorded Abraham's encounter with a burning bush. Do not forget Hussein's nuclear weapons program which did not exist. Do not forget the extermination of Kosovars in Serbia of which the UN found zero evidence and not a single mass grave. Do not forget the Lusitania was not carrying munitions despite the munitions being salvaged at this time. Do not forget the Maine was blown up by the Spanish instead of a boiler explosion. Do not forget the Gulf of Tonkin incident which is another historical fact which never occurred. Do not forget the historical fact of Japanese treachery at Pearl Harbor even though it was known in Washington nearly a week before it happened.
Do not forget the historical fact of all the german atrocities in the first world war which Britain formally apologized for inventing in 1924.
Do not forget that in all of the Nuremberg trials there were no witnesses presented and that the total content related to "gas chambers" is a single question and answer and that "crimes against humanity" were gerously only 1/8th of the proceedings of which that one question was part.
Do not forget that the accused at Nuremberg had a right an attorney and a right to hear the proceedings in German and not one other right. They had no right to confront witnesses, supeona witnesses in their defense, no right to know the charges against them prior to the prosecution's exposition in court. They may have had the right to sing the blues but that is not recorded.
Do not forget that when the proceedings were challenged because the crimes were invented after the war was over they constituted ex post facto law but that was rejected on the grounds that the tribunal could not be challenged and none other.
Do not forget the fact that there was not a single charge of simple murder and that no charge of murder was established in a manner required by US law.
But if you had ever read the Nuremberg transcripts I would be telling you things you already know. But you have no idea what that kangaroo court was like.
Desdenova wrote:As the rest of your post is nothing more than empty propaganda in a sick attempt to convert followers, I won't soil the board by reposting it here. You have proven yourself once again a liar and a racist. I consider it my duty, nay, the duty of all atheists, to confront falsity wherever they may find it. I dare say that they can find as much that is false in your spewings of racial hatred as they can find in any holy text.You defend the nazi idea that Jews are a race and call me a racist. You are clearly not very bright. I say Jews are not a race yet in your bewildered state you acuse me of racial hatred. You use saying Jews are NOT a race as an example of racial hatred. You support the premises of Mein Kampf by claiming Jews are a race.
There are medications for schizophrenia. You might inquire after them.
You are a sick puppy and spin's pussy will lick you.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline You answered by dodging the question and engaging in solipsism. That simple 'yes' or 'no' question took you a few paragraphs to avoid answering. Of course you know (not in an absolute perfect certainty sense, but in a reasonable and justified belief sense) whether or not the holocaust happened. I am obviously not asking for statements that you are perfectly sure are true. If we held a standard of perfect certainty on all statements, then 'I don't know' would be the answer to virtually all questions including questions such as 'Was Thomas Jefferson ever a President'. But we both are reasonably sure that Jefferson was a President even though we lack perfect certainty on this matter. Answer 'yes' or 'no' based off of that kind of reasonable certainty.
Lets try this again: Do you think (your own subjective opinion is fine as an answer for this question, please don't call upon solipsism to dodge the question, of course you weren't there and of course no one holds perfect certainty on anything but self-evident truths) that either 'yes, about 12 million people were systematically killed in the holocaust and about half of them were Jewish' or 'no, I don't think that 12 million people died in the holocaust and/or I don't think that about half of that group was Jewish.'
Paragraphs written about Roswell or Jesus or sworn testimonies with threat of punishment for perjury or how you were not an eyewitness and lack perfect certainty on this matter or how people just go with the group are not the 'yes' or 'no' answer that satisfies this question. To start things off I will go first and answer the question: yes. That 'yes' obviously does not mean that I was an eyewitness or that I claim to know with perfect certainty that anything happened. In the same sense that I can say 'yes, Thomas Jefferson existed and was a President of this nation, even though I never directly witnessed him being President and can not claim perfect certainty in this matter' I can also say 'yes, the holocaust occured and around six million Jews were killed in it."
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
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Offline You answered by dodging the question and engaging in solipsism. That simple 'yes' or 'no' question took you a few paragraphs to avoid answering. Of course you know (not in an absolute perfect certainty sense, but in a reasonable and justified belief sense) whether or not the holocaust happened.
You also have a reasonable and justified belief in Jesus being the son of god on the same grounds you imply to me.
But now you go from a recitation of numbers to "the holocaust happened" and obviously consider the two expressions interchangeable which they are not.
As a scientist, physicist actually, I would have a credible basis for claiming there were X dead if in fact I had a credible source of pre and post war world census figures for Jews. I have a credible 1938 source although not properly documented in the sense of a footnote in a professional publication. That was 13 million in the world. That means 7 million in the world in 1945 as in 13 - 6 = 7. That means the world population of Jews has doubled between 1945 and today. So has the population of the world. So why are they whining about assimilation? But I have only arithmetic to use as I cannot find a credible source of the world population of Jews in the immediate post war period. Do you have one?
And if you do not, how can you credibly claim to have a basis to know anything? Hearsay, gradeschool teachings, public statements by politicians ... do you have anything serious?
I am obviously not asking for statements that you are perfectly sure are true.
What does personal certainty matter? All of us here were raised with a personal certainty in the existence of a god. Fortunately childhood does not last forever.
If we held a standard of perfect certainty on all statements, then 'I don't know' would be the answer to virtually all questions including questions such as 'Was Thomas Jefferson ever a President'. But we both are reasonably sure that Jefferson was a President even though we lack perfect certainty on this matter. Answer 'yes' or 'no' based off of that kind of reasonable certainty.
As a scientist there is no certainty in anything without very careful qualifications. As to Jefferson having been president all I can say is that is what the available evidence indicates. Now if you want "holocaust" to mean Jews were persecuted and sent to camps like the Japanese-Americans that is clearly what the documentation indicates. If you want to say in 1945 there were only 7 million Jews in the world and only (9-6) 3 million Jews in all of Europe including all of Russia that is something else entirely. Those are hard numbers and I have not been able to find any evidenciary material to support that even where it should be, as a footnote to every formal recounting of the claim.
Do you know of one? And if not what do you mean by knowledge?
Before you jump on your high horse again let me ask you, did Cortes exterminate the Aztecs to steal their land? Get out your popular history books and read that he did. Get out the real history and discover Aztec women owned the land. And Mrs Cortes was the widow of Moctezuma. This was the custom of the Aztecs. Additionally records show he fulfilled his responsibility to adminster land disputes and often found against Spaniards in favor of the locals. Almost everyone "knows" the Spanish exterminated and enslaved the Indians. Reality tells a different story entirely.
So what do you mean by knowledge? Having read the Diary of Anne Frank? Having picked up a few fragments here and there? You obviously have not even done the elementary arithmetic and asked how the population of Jews has doubled since 1945 and also read the claim their numbers are not growing due to assimilation.
But these are only numbers and numbers are a sign of blashemy. It indicates doubt and questioning and subjecting claims to external tests which is forbidden in the religion.
Lets try this again: Do you think (your own subjective opinion is fine as an answer for this question, please don't call upon solipsism to dodge the question, of course you weren't there and of course no one holds perfect certainty on anything but self-evident truths) that either 'yes, about 12 million people were systematically killed in the holocaust and about half of them were Jewish' or 'no, I don't think that 12 million people died in the holocaust and/or I don't think that about half of that group was Jewish.'
I have never seen any physical evidence upon which to base any numbers. I have never read anyone making a claim of such numbers to present any physical evidence in support of those numbers. Therefore I do not see any credible basis for claiming twice the population of New York City was killed in a few years without leaving any trace evidence for the CSI types to analyze to establish any such numbers.
You have not seen such evidence else you would be asking after the evidence rather than the mere assertion without evidence. You would be asking my opinion on the number of thousand cubic yards of cremation ash found are sufficient to account for the dead. There are many grounds upon which to discuss this matter if there were physical evidence. But you do not bring up physical evidence. You bring up belief and try to modify that with reasonable belief.
You do not differ from a god believer. You simply have a different religion. Like Torquemada you will construe any failure to agree to belief as evidence of guilt. This is a game no rational person plays. Clearly you are lacking in rational thought. You are required to hold discussions based upon evidence. If you have no physical evidence you have nothing to discuss and no standing.
Paragraphs written about Roswell or Jesus or sworn testimonies with threat of punishment for perjury or how you were not an eyewitness and lack perfect certainty on this matter or how people just go with the group are not the 'yes' or 'no' answer that satisfies this question. To start things off I will go first and answer the question: yes. That 'yes' obviously does not mean that I was an eyewitness or that I claim to know with perfect certainty that anything happened. In the same sense that I can say 'yes, Thomas Jefferson existed and was a President of this nation, even though I never directly witnessed him being President and can not claim perfect certainty in this matter' I can also say 'yes, the holocaust occured and around six million Jews were killed in it."
You can say anything you want and many did to avoid the stake.
Please recite the physical evidence which leads you to say yes to mass extermination. Please recite the physical evidence which leads you to say six million Jews. Please recite the evidence which leads you to claim 12 million total as opposed to the 14 million claim in 1945 and the 8 million today.
If as you imply your belief in the holy holocaust is different from religion then you will present evidence which is not based upon faith but upon established physical evidence not stories.
Governments lie. The Allies won WWII and the Allies were the bad guys in that war. The main allies were the US, Britain, France and Russia. In just the winter Hitler took power records in the Moscow archives recited in The Black Book of Communism, U. of Hawaii Press indicate the Communist ally murdered as many people as Hitler is accused of murdering in his entire career. Between them the British, French, and Russian Allies had enslaved over 1/4 of the world's population. In other words the Nazis were accused of wanting to do what the British, French and Russian allies had already accomplished. And in the process just the Russian ally had murdered in just one winter in the Ukraine between 10 and 15 million people.
I leave Americans to recite their own genocidal sins regarding the Amerind.
But the good guys won as long as the good guys means WE less the communists who were good guys until after WWII and then we were so surprised ...
But please give me your religious point of view on the holy holocaust as you will not be able to muster any physical evidence.
If you are legitimately naive and new to this holocaust thing my apologies. I do not mean to come on strong with people new to the subject. As with god I grew up believing as you do as did we all.
My path was simply an interest in science. I had read descriptions of death by Zyklon-B and never could figure out what the gas was. I didn't care much about it. It wasn't of much interest to me. I was/am US Navy even if civilian. Remember the USS Liberty! Never forgive! Never forget! is our motto. But one day I came across the true statement that Zyklon-B was plain, ordinary cyanide as is used in US gas chambers. My first thought was that had to be wrong because cyanide does not kill in the manner of the descriptions I had read. The pathology of cyanide poisoning was entirely different from the descriptions of death by Zyklon-B.
So then I read up and found there was no question Z-B was cyanide, HCN. The pathology of cyanide poisoning is well known. Anyone reporting anything different is lying. The US experience with cyanide gas chambers goes back to 1913 if I remember correctly. There are obvious differences but not one single experience is like the stories told.
The worst case of death by cyanide in the US was from a prisoner who refused to inhale. One cannot scream without inhaling deeply. Inhaling deeply is the recommendation to the condemned to make death come quickly. QED
=====
For spin and his racist buddy and anyone else wishing to challenge this LEARN THE SUBJECT before you post. I do not suffer fools.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline Once again it takes quite a few paragraphs to avoid writing down 'yes' or 'no.' Subjects ranging from what is or is not HCN to early European encounters with South American Indians to comparisons between me and theists were written here rather than a simple answer to a simple question. Why is it so hard for you to write down 'yes' or 'no?' I phrased the question in such a way that 'yes' or 'no' are the only possible answers to it. Either around 6 million Jews were systematically killed or they weren't. Writing paragraph after paragraph on unrealted topics won't change that simple fact. I'm still very interested in your answer to this question. Seeing as you made no attempt to answer it in your previous two responses to me, I'm still waiting. I suspect others here are also wondering about your answer.
What do I mean by knowledge? Let us say I am interested in your informed opinion on this matter. I don't demand claims of knowledge or proof from you (though oddly you responded to my question by demanding that I give evidence that the holocaust happened to you, am I supposed to have stockpiles of Nazi records in my apartement to look through to find your evidence?). I just would like to know your opinion on this matter. I think that you consider yourself informed on this issue, please share your informed opinion with us. A quick 'yes' or 'no' to my question would tell us much more than off-topic paragraph after off-topic paragraph. If you want to talk about AmerIndians or British Imperialism or why I am just like a theist, I recommend making new threads on those topics. On this thread I would like an answer to my question regarding an important facet of Jewish history.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
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Offline All I know about numbers is that in 2004 Israel formally stated that there were one million holocaust survivors still alive in that year.
www.iht.com/articles/2005/04/20/news/holocaust.php
If one has not subborned his knowledge of algebra and arithmetic to the religion then it means there were 5.1 million holocaust survivors alive in 1945 if those to young to work were not killed and Jews continued to have children as though there was no war at all. If however those under 13 were killed for an inability to work then this same elementary calculation says there were 27.1 million holocaust survivors in 1945. Note there were only 13 million Jews in the world in 1938 and 9 million in Europe.
You're a moron.
5.1 million holocaust survivors does not mean 5.1 million Jewish holocaust survivors. The holocaust involved the killing of about 6 million Jews, 3 million Soviet POWs, 2 million Poles and abut 1 million 'others' (Romas, Physically/Mentally Impaired, Freemasons, Homosexuals & Jehova's Witnesses). So your figures are out to lunch, given that we aren't aware of what portion of the 5.1 million survivors mentioned in the article are Jewish.
You want figures from me? Fine:
Jewish Population, Pre-War Poland: 3,300,000 Post-War: 300,000 Diff: 3,000,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Baltic Nations: 253,000 Post-War: 25,000 Diff: 228,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Germany & Austria: 240,000 Post-War: 30,000 Diff: 210,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Bohemia Moravia: 90,000 Post-War: 10,000 Diff: 80,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Slovakia: 90,000 Post-War: 15,000 Diff: 75,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Greece: 70,000 Post-War: 16,000 Diff: 54,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Netherlands: 140,000 Post-War: 35,000 Diff: 105,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Hungary: 650,000 Post-War: 200,000 Diff: 450,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Byelorussian SSR: 375,000 Post-War: 130,000 Diff: 245,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Ukrainian SSR: 1,500,000 Post-War: 600,000 Diff: 900,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Belgium: 65,000 Post-War: 25,000 Diff: 40,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Yugoslavia: 43,000 Post-War: 17,000 Diff: 26,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Romania: 600,000 Post-War: 300,000 Diff: 300,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Norway: 1,800 Post-War: 900 Diff: 900
Jewish Population, Pre-War France: 350,000 Post-War: 260,000 Diff: 90,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Bulgaria: 64,000 Post-War: 50,000 Diff: 14,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Italy: 40,000 Post-War: 32,000 Diff: 8,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Luxemburg: 5,000 Post-War: 4,000 Diff: 1,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Russian SFSR: 975,000 Post-War: 868,000 Diff: 107,000
Jewish Population, Denmark: 8,000 Post-War: No Data
Jewish Population, Finland: 2,000 Post-War: No Data
Jewish Pre-War Total: 8,861,800 Post-War: 2,297,900 Diff: 5,933,900
So, I'll ask a second time: What happened to 5,933,900 Jews that are totally unaccounted for? There was around 9 million before the war, about 2 million afterward. Their families allege that they were killed & burned, the documents of the Nazi regime corroborate their stories, film evidence corroborates it further, survivor tesitmony corroborates it again, physical evidence corroborates it yet again, etc ad nauseum.
What's your counter-claim? Did the Jews descend below the surface of the Earth to scheme with the molemen? Did they get beamed aboard UFOs (willingly, of course) to assist the aliens in preparation for their inevitable invasion? Were they raptured away? Are they still among us, but cleverly disguised as lamps?
No doubt you'll have a long-winded dance around the bush for us all to enjoy in response; this was mostly written for the audience's benefit.
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
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Offline Once again it takes quite a few paragraphs to avoid writing down 'yes' or 'no.'
As you have presented no physical evidence for asking the question, in legal terms, without foundation, you are imitating Torquemada.
Subjects ranging from what is or is not HCN to early European encounters with South American Indians to comparisons between me and theists were written here rather than a simple answer to a simple question. Why is it so hard for you to write down 'yes' or 'no?' I phrased the question in such a way that 'yes' or 'no' are the only possible answers to it. Either around 6 million Jews were systematically killed or they weren't. Writing paragraph after paragraph on unrealted topics won't change that simple fact. I'm still very interested in your answer to this question. Seeing as you made no attempt to answer it in your previous two responses to me, I'm still waiting. I suspect others here are also wondering about your answer.What do I mean by knowledge?
If you cannot read PHYSICAL EVIDENCE which I wrote many times I can see you are asking a question at the sophomore high school debating club level.
Let us say I am interested in your informed opinion on this matter. I don't demand claims of knowledge or proof from you (though oddly you responded to my question by demanding that I give evidence that the holocaust happened to you, am I supposed to have stockpiles of Nazi records in my apartement to look through to find your evidence?).
I take that as an admission you have no physical basis for your belief and as such you are no different from a god believer. We ALL demand evidence from god believers for their claims. If you cannot rise to the level demanded of god believers by atheists you are clearly a believer.
That is what I said. This holy holocaust is a religion. You believers cannot meet minimum requirements any more than god believers can.
I just would like to know your opinion on this matter. I think that you consider yourself informed on this issue, please share your informed opinion with us. A quick 'yes' or 'no' to my question would tell us much more than off-topic paragraph after off-topic paragraph. If you want to talk about AmerIndians or British Imperialism or why I am just like a theist, I recommend making new threads on those topics. On this thread I would like an answer to my question regarding an important facet of Jewish history.
Again you demonstrate you are playing Torquemada. You have no idea what you are asking as you have no evidence to lay the foundation of the question. You are just like any other god believer. You simply have a different religion.
It has been required for over 2000 years, see the Dialogues of Plato, to lay a foundation for any question and it is a primary requirement in law. You lay no foundation whatsoever.
You ask for an opinion. Opinions cannot be disputed.
At the least I am trying to teach you rational dispute to prepare you for college.
But it is late and lets just say you are neither naive nor new to this merely incapable of rational thought and/or plain stupid.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline Once again it takes quite a few paragraphs to avoid writing down 'yes' or 'no.'
Jorg, just read between the lines. If you really want absolute confirmation, Nizkor has a whole page devoted to our guest.
He effectively demands that unless we can transport him back in time and show him the Jews being burned, what evidence we have of the event is irrelevant.
I just hope a dude like him never gets called for jury duty.
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
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Offline Kids, I'm not going to get into this debate, but I am going to comment on the meta-debate. First, I'll explain that I'm not going to debate the Holocaust because I'd sooner debate whether Manhattan is in New York. Some things preclude debate for the simple fact of absurdly obvious mountains of evidence.
What I want to comment on is racism. Our interlocutor is a racist and a nut-job. We all recognize this. However, I'd like to point out that on our list of irrational precepts is this one: "Holocaust denier."
It has been asked of several mods why Nony hasn't been banned for his obvious racism and insanity. The answer to that is that his thinking is driven by exactly the same kind of irrationality as theists who claim that the earth is 6000 years old or Luminon, who is certain that... well.. everything except god is true, including aliens, astrology, astral travel, and anything else that sounds new agey and cool.
This kind of idiocy is what we're fighting against, and you don't fight idiocy by forcing idiots to shut up. You do it by letting them expose themselves for the charlatans they are. You make it clear that you are offended by them, but that taking offense has nothing to do with being rational. The mark of rationality is to stand defiantly in the face of hatred, bigotry, and delusion and call it what it is.
I recognize that particularly for Jews, this thread and others by the same poster can be extremely offensive. I'm not Jewish, and I'm offended by them. However, in all fairness, I can't think of any reason why one particular form of faith based thinking should be censored when we have had so many debates with theists, new agers, alien conspirators, 9/11 truthers, and all other brands of epistemological fakirs.
There is another poster on this forum who recently posted a thinly veiled attempt to portray blacks as racially inferior based upon the aquatic ape theory. He is still here, and still has posting privileges, and to the best of my knowledge, he's probably just as irrational as ever. His pet theories were soundly put down by the scientific community here. This is as it should be. The Holocaust deniers will not change their minds because they are trapped by the same irrationality that traps people in religion, but perhaps someone on the fence will read this thread and see the same bigotry in Christianity. Perhaps seeing this stupidity for what it is, in the cold light of reason, someone will realize the error of their own irrationality, and we will have done our job.
To anyone who is offended by this, rest assured. I am offended too. That is why for the time being, we're leaving it. We want it exposed and ridiculed.
Having said all of this, Brian and I have discussed this thread and the potential for members to be offended enough to leave, and for the time being, we both feel like there isn't a reason to allow one person's feelings (or even ten people's) of extreme distaste for an idea to dictate what is allowed as a topic of discussion. I, for one, have a hard time imagining us taking "Holocaust Denier" off the list of irrational precepts because it's not allowed as a topic of conversation.
We are open to discussion about this, but this is our feeling at the moment.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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Offline Agreed. 'Tis far more fun watching him destroy himself.
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Offline Quote:Once again it takes quite a few paragraphs to avoid writing down 'yes' or 'no.'Jorg, just read between the lines. If you really want absolute confirmation, Nizkor has a whole page devoted to our guest.
He effectively demands that unless we can transport him back in time and show him the Jews being burned, what evidence we have of the event is irrelevant.
You also demand to be transported to the burning bush of Abraham and the tomb of Jesus to witness the resurrection and for the same reasons.
When the influx of Cubans into Tampa Bay was novel it was common to report sightings of the Virgin Mary. As that was barely ten years ago it is much more recent than claims of the extermination of six million resulting is 27 million holocaust survivors in 1945.
But it is a miracle you will take on faith and are fearful of questioning.
I just hope a dude like him never gets called for jury duty.
Unless you are innocent.
If you are innocent you want someone who will laugh at the prosecutor when he points to the newspapers as evidence everyone knows you are guilty.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline Okay. I can't resist:
I'd sooner debate whether Manhattan is in New York. Some things preclude debate for the simple fact of absurdly obvious mountains of evidence.
You can't *prove* Manhatten is in New York!!!
HA WHAT A SILLY RELIGION YOU HAVE LOL!!!
Nony: Get real. Crack open some champagne or tequila or whatever the fuck pleases you and enjoy New Years. While you're at it, if you could go back over the population statistics I posted and give me an explanation for where all of the Hewbrews went, that'd be appreciated too.
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
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Offline Kids, I'm not going to get into this debate, but I am going to comment on the meta-debate. First, I'll explain that I'm not going to debate the Holocaust because I'd sooner debate whether Manhattan is in New York. Some things preclude debate for the simple fact of absurdly obvious mountains of evidence.
The first lie is there are in fact mountains of evidence of the extermination of 6 million with 27 million survivors in 1945. Even 1st grade arithmetic should have a problem with that but maybe it is 3rd grade these days.
The second lie is in the childish confounding of persecution during WWII with extermination of 6 million with 27 million surivors in 1945. That is truly irrational.
What I want to comment on is racism. Our interlocutor is a racist and a nut-job. We all recognize this. However, I'd like to point out that on our list of irrational precepts is this one: "Holocaust denier."
How can one be a racist while observing the scientific defintion of the term racist and concluding Jews are not a race? If Jews are a race then the Nazis were correct. Does not this elementary conundrum register upon you? If not then why not? Anyone who says Jews are a race is clearly siding with the Nazi opinion of Jews.
It has been asked of several mods why Nony hasn't been banned for his obvious racism and insanity. The answer to that is that his thinking is driven by exactly the same kind of irrationality as theists who claim that the earth is 6000 years old or Luminon, who is certain that... well.. everything except god is true, including aliens, astrology, astral travel, and anything else that sounds new agey and cool.
Theists? Who told you there was a god and why did you believe them? Who told you there were 6 million murdered and why did you believe them? Who told you there were 27 million holocaust survivors in 1945 and why did you believe them?
Note the first call is for banning rather than discussion. If the issue is so simple then certainly it can be addressed in the same manner as god belief is addressed. Please do so.
But so far there has not been a single person even pretending to apply the same rules of "proving god" as to "proving six million were murdered." So far it has been, there is a world therefore there is a god and there are Jews therefore six million were murdered. Please, give me the forensic evidence of a single autopsey showing death by cyanide. One would expect hundreds of them to be available.
This kind of idiocy is what we're fighting against, and you don't fight idiocy by forcing idiots to shut up. You do it by letting them expose themselves for the charlatans they are. You make it clear that you are offended by them, but that taking offense has nothing to do with being rational. The mark of rationality is to stand defiantly in the face of hatred, bigotry, and delusion and call it what it is.
Believers always make it clear they are offended by atheists daring to question their beliefs. I am more than willing to listen to evidence better than presented about the existence of god(s) regarding 6 million murdered and 27 million survivors. So far I have seen nothing.
I recognize that particularly for Jews, this thread and others by the same poster can be extremely offensive. I'm not Jewish, and I'm offended by them. However, in all fairness, I can't think of any reason why one particular form of faith based thinking should be censored when we have had so many debates with theists, new agers, alien conspirators, 9/11 truthers, and all other brands of epistemological fakirs.
Excuse me but THERE ARE NO JEWS here. No theists are allowed here in Freethinking Anonymous. Remember? Unless you are a Nazi and persecuted Christians for having Jewish ancestors there is no such thing as a non-theist Jew, period. Read the EFing definition of Jew, Mosaic confession. If you permit self-declaration then you can declare yourself a Jew if you wish. Being a Jew by having a Jewish mother comes only from the religion. No theists allowed here.
I have not the least interest in people who delude themselves into believing they can be both Jews and atheists. Those puppies need some TLC from their Rebbes. But I object to the absurdity of an atheist Jew for the same reasons I would object to the absurdity of an atheist Christian.
There is another poster on this forum who recently posted a thinly veiled attempt to portray blacks as racially inferior based upon the aquatic ape theory. He is still here, and still has posting privileges, and to the best of my knowledge, he's probably just as irrational as ever. His pet theories were soundly put down by the scientific community here. This is as it should be. The Holocaust deniers will not change their minds because they are trapped by the same irrationality that traps people in religion, but perhaps someone on the fence will read this thread and see the same bigotry in Christianity. Perhaps seeing this stupidity for what it is, in the cold light of reason, someone will realize the error of their own irrationality, and we will have done our job.
The scientific community here, of which I am one, soundly put down the idea Jews are a race. Yet the clown leading the charge is a racist claiming Jews are a race just like any good Nazi.
But the issue of the holocaust religion is the simultaneous belief in 6 million murdered and 27 million survivors in 1945. That is the kind of nonsense that only a religion can support. I also observe ritual remembrance of the dead ancestors as indicative of the holocaust religion.
And it was observing the "holy holocaust" is a religion is where I came into this discussion. And I entered it by pointing out Israel LIED about the number of survivors in 1945. And from that all this shit has come.
To anyone who is offended by this, rest assured. I am offended too. That is why for the time being, we're leaving it. We want it exposed and ridiculed.Having said all of this, Brian and I have discussed this thread and the potential for members to be offended enough to leave, and for the time being, we both feel like there isn't a reason to allow one person's feelings (or even ten people's) of extreme distaste for an idea to dictate what is allowed as a topic of discussion. I, for one, have a hard time imagining us taking "Holocaust Denier" off the list of irrational precepts because it's not allowed as a topic of conversation.
We are open to discussion about this, but this is our feeling at the moment.
There can be no one offended as there are no JEWS here as theists are prohibited from participation.
If the rules are going to be changed please do so up front instead of by fiat in private exchanges.
That is a reasonable request.
I presume this will be in the form of a papist ex cathedra statement as to eternal truth about which details are a forbidden discussion. There is no other way to do it.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline Can someone remind me again why the 30-50 million German Holocaust records being released fail to constitute evidence of the Holocaust? Somehow this little point has eluded me. And while we're at it, why is it that Germany admits to the holocaust, seeing as how they supposedly didn't do it? Strange indeed. And gosh darn it, but did I not read someone mention that eyewitness accounts were inconsistent and therefore somehow not evidence of the holocaust, and then shortly thereafter completely contradict this accusation by babbling randomly about how eyewitness testimony was worthless? Dang, but the logic of 7th grade dropout ' physicists ' never ceases to amaze me!
Oh, and did I mention that our Nazi Rodentinstein has also contradicted his position on linguistics as well? In a June first, 2008 thread titled Dealing with nonsense he almost correctly translates BYT YHWH and BYT STRT as temple of Yahweh and temple of Astarte. While the correct translation is house of Yahweh and house of Astarte, he did pretty good for an amateur. But in later posts he insists adamantly that Semitic languages are inherently untranslatable due to the lack of vowels in the script. He even pretends that Egyptian, which contains vowels, is not translatable. Clearly, he is willing to misinterpret information to suit his racist agenda. He has done this time and again, unashamedly and unapologetically. He employs the same underhanded, misdirecting, deceitful apologetics used by the likes of Hovind, and like Hovind, ridicules when confronted with his lies.
I think I speak for us all when I say that atheists value honesty. Unlike our religious opposites, we seek to enlighten, not befuddle. Can we, good intentioned infidels that we are, give credence to someone, even someone claiming to be one of our own, that uses dishonesty and misdirection as a means of conversion to his agenda? I personally admit to any misinformation I may accidentally convey. I have no respect for anyone who, when caught in a barefaced lie, greets the exposure of the lie with abuse, then repeats the lie as though it were never brought to light as such. I hope that my fellow atheists, rational creatures that you are, have the same moral fortitude to stand against such hateful falsehood with the same justifiable indignation that you stand against the hate filled lies of Fred Phelps with.
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
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Offline Quote:Once again it takes quite a few paragraphs to avoid writing down 'yes' or 'no.'Jorg, just read between the lines. If you really want absolute confirmation, Nizkor has a whole page devoted to our guest.
As to the Nizkook page I find that as complimentary as a page by Jerry Falwell.
Notice they are all forged. Now why would anyone be worth all the effort of creating such forgeries were there a simple answer to the issues?
And if they are not forgeries, where are the headers? Where are the citations from groups.google.com?
Who but children would think adults could be taken in but such patent nonsense?
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline Quote:All I know about numbers is that in 2004 Israel formally stated that there were one million holocaust survivors still alive in that year.
www.iht.com/articles/2005/04/20/news/holocaust.php
If one has not subborned his knowledge of algebra and arithmetic to the religion then it means there were 5.1 million holocaust survivors alive in 1945 if those to young to work were not killed and Jews continued to have children as though there was no war at all. If however those under 13 were killed for an inability to work then this same elementary calculation says there were 27.1 million holocaust survivors in 1945. Note there were only 13 million Jews in the world in 1938 and 9 million in Europe.
You're a moron.
And you are a fucking idiot.
Now that we are friend again let me first note you have not one formal citation for a single one of the following numbers.
5.1 million holocaust survivors does not mean 5.1 million Jewish holocaust survivors. The holocaust involved the killing of about 6 million Jews, 3 million Soviet POWs, 2 million Poles and abut 1 million 'others' (Romas, Physically/Mentally Impaired, Freemasons, Homosexuals & Jehova's Witnesses). So your figures are out to lunch, given that we aren't aware of what portion of the 5.1 million survivors mentioned in the article are Jewish.You want figures from me? Fine:
Jewish Population, Pre-War Poland: 3,300,000 Post-War: 300,000 Diff: 3,000,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Baltic Nations: 253,000 Post-War: 25,000 Diff: 228,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Germany & Austria: 240,000 Post-War: 30,000 Diff: 210,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Bohemia Moravia: 90,000 Post-War: 10,000 Diff: 80,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Slovakia: 90,000 Post-War: 15,000 Diff: 75,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Greece: 70,000 Post-War: 16,000 Diff: 54,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Netherlands: 140,000 Post-War: 35,000 Diff: 105,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Hungary: 650,000 Post-War: 200,000 Diff: 450,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Byelorussian SSR: 375,000 Post-War: 130,000 Diff: 245,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Ukrainian SSR: 1,500,000 Post-War: 600,000 Diff: 900,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Belgium: 65,000 Post-War: 25,000 Diff: 40,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Yugoslavia: 43,000 Post-War: 17,000 Diff: 26,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Romania: 600,000 Post-War: 300,000 Diff: 300,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Norway: 1,800 Post-War: 900 Diff: 900
Jewish Population, Pre-War France: 350,000 Post-War: 260,000 Diff: 90,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Bulgaria: 64,000 Post-War: 50,000 Diff: 14,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Italy: 40,000 Post-War: 32,000 Diff: 8,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Luxemburg: 5,000 Post-War: 4,000 Diff: 1,000
Jewish Population, Pre-War Russian SFSR: 975,000 Post-War: 868,000 Diff: 107,000
Jewish Population, Denmark: 8,000 Post-War: No Data
Jewish Population, Finland: 2,000 Post-War: No Data
Jewish Pre-War Total: 8,861,800 Post-War: 2,297,900 Diff: 5,933,900
See? Not a single citation for any source much less a credible source.
AND I got into this pointing out Israel claimed there were 27 million holocaust survivors in 1945. What in the EFing hell are you trying to tell me?
So, I'll ask a second time: What happened to 5,933,900 Jews that are totally unaccounted for? There was around 9 million before the war, about 2 million afterward. Their families allege that they were killed & burned, the documents of the Nazi regime corroborate their stories, film evidence corroborates it further, survivor tesitmony corroborates it again, physical evidence corroborates it yet again, etc ad nauseum.What's your counter-claim? Did the Jews descend below the surface of the Earth to scheme with the molemen? Did they get beamed aboard UFOs (willingly, of course) to assist the aliens in preparation for their inevitable invasion? Were they raptured away? Are they still among us, but cleverly disguised as lamps?
No doubt you'll have a long-winded dance around the bush for us all to enjoy in response; this was mostly written for the audience's benefit.
I have no interest in any long-winded response. I stand by Israel's claim there were 27 million holocaust survivors in 1945 and with the observation you have no source whatsoever for your numbers. I ask for pre and post WWII world census figures and you give numbers anyone could make up without even a pretention of citing a source for the numbers. Are you an adult?
I feel like I am arguing over how many were really fed with loaves and fishes.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline Once again it takes quite a few paragraphs to avoid writing down 'yes' or 'no.' Subjects ranging from what is or is not HCN to early European encounters with South American Indians to comparisons between me and theists were written here rather than a simple answer to a simple question. Why is it so hard for you to write down 'yes' or 'no?' I phrased the question in such a way that 'yes' or 'no' are the only possible answers to it. Either around 6 million Jews were systematically killed or they weren't. Writing paragraph after paragraph on unrealted topics won't change that simple fact. I'm still very interested in your answer to this question. Seeing as you made no attempt to answer it in your previous two responses to me, I'm still waiting. I suspect others here are also wondering about your answer.
What do I mean by knowledge? Let us say I am interested in your informed opinion on this matter. I don't demand claims of knowledge or proof from you (though oddly you responded to my question by demanding that I give evidence that the holocaust happened to you, am I supposed to have stockpiles of Nazi records in my apartement to look through to find your evidence?). I just would like to know your opinion on this matter. I think that you consider yourself informed on this issue, please share your informed opinion with us. A quick 'yes' or 'no' to my question would tell us much more than off-topic paragraph after off-topic paragraph. If you want to talk about AmerIndians or British Imperialism or why I am just like a theist, I recommend making new threads on those topics. On this thread I would like an answer to my question regarding an important facet of Jewish history.
So you agree you have no personal knowledge of anything you believe in regard to this holy holocaust.
Why are you bothering me with your beliefs?
Who told you there was a god and why did you believe them?
Who told you 6 million Jews were murdered and why did you believe them?
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline Agreed. 'Tis far more fun watching him destroy himself.
The secret is there is no self to destroy.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline Can someone remind me again why the 30-50 million German Holocaust records being released fail to constitute evidence of the Holocaust?
As you are a child I will treat you condescendingly.
The issue is not what is given a name. The name Christmas has nothing to do with the incarnation of the son of god unless you are hopelessly bewildered.
The issue from the beginning was the official claim of the government of Israel that there were 27 million holocaust survivors in 1945.
Somehow this little point has eluded me. And while we're at it, why is it that Germany admits to the holocaust, seeing as how they supposedly didn't do it? Strange indeed. And gosh darn it, but did I not read someone mention that eyewitness accounts were inconsistent and therefore somehow not evidence of the holocaust, and then shortly thereafter completely contradict this accusation by babbling randomly about how eyewitness testimony was worthless? Dang, but the logic of 7th grade dropout ' physicists ' never ceases to amaze me!
The Nazis insisted Jews are a race. You are clearly a Nazi. Likely you are also a believer in the racial supremacy of Jews as opposed to the Nazis believing in the racial supremacy of Germans. I do not see a pfennig's nor a shekel's worth of difference between you two.
Oh, and did I mention that our Nazi Rodentinstein has also contradicted his position on linguistics as well? In a June first, 2008 thread titled Dealing with nonsense he almost correctly translates BYT YHWH and BYT STRT as temple of Yahweh and temple of Astarte. While the correct translation is house of Yahweh and house of Astarte, he did pretty good for an amateur. But in later posts he insists adamantly that Semitic languages are inherently untranslatable due to the lack of vowels in the script. He even pretends that Egyptian, which contains vowels, is not translatable. Clearly, he is willing to misinterpret information to suit his racist agenda. He has done this time and again, unashamedly and unapologetically. He employs the same underhanded, misdirecting, deceitful apologetics used by the likes of Hovind, and like Hovind, ridicules when confronted with his lies.
You lie like a racist Nazi. At least you are a Zionist animal.
I think I speak for us all
OK, here it is. Does this nazi, racist, zionist animal speak for the Rational Response Squad?
I would really like to know.
when I say that atheists value honesty. Unlike our religious opposites, we seek to enlighten, not befuddle. Can we, good intentioned infidels that we are, give credence to someone, even someone claiming to be one of our own, that uses dishonesty and misdirection as a means of conversion to his agenda? I personally admit to any misinformation I may accidentally convey. I have no respect for anyone who, when caught in a barefaced lie, greets the exposure of the lie with abuse, then repeats the lie as though it were never brought to light as such. I hope that my fellow atheists, rational creatures that you are, have the same moral fortitude to stand against such hateful falsehood with the same justifiable indignation that you stand against the hate filled lies of Fred Phelps with.
If some day you abjure your nazi, racist views of Jews you might have a better reception.
I do not care how I am received. There is no self to destroy.
You do.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline And you are a fucking idiot.
Now that we are friend again let me first note you have not one formal citation for a single one of the following numbers.
*Facepalm*
The War Against the Jews (ISBN 055334532X), Lucy Dawidowicz.
(Let me guess: She's just part of the Zionist conspiracy, isn't she? Just like all of the census workers from who she compiled her figures? )
AND I got into this pointing out Israel claimed there were 27 million holocaust survivors in 1945. What in the EFing hell are you trying to tell me?
And you're wrong. Remember? We already pointed-out that you had your figures bungled-up because you read 'Jewish Holocaust Survivors' instead of 'Holocaust Survivors', the term actually used in the article.
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
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Offline I feel like I am arguing over how many were really fed with loaves and fishes.
Your allusions to the Holocaust being no more credible than Christianity, and ignorance regarding the latter topic, also deserves a bit of attention:
- You claimed that John, Mark, et all were first-hand accounts. They were not.
- John, Mark, et all were pseudonyms. We don't even know who the Hell the actual authors were.
- There is no evidence supporting history as presented in the Bible. In fact, there is contradictory evidence in the form of the geological column, evolutionary theory, elementary physics, geography, etc. There is plenty of evidence - whether you believe it to be faked or not - supporting the holocaust, including actual eye-witness account from people who were not simply going by a pseudonym, photos, films, physical structures & remains, artifacts made from the victims (lampshades in particular), demographical records showing a huge population decline, documents (so many documents) from the Nazi beaurocracy, etc.
- The Bible includes magical events that are pysically impossible. The Holocaust involves no magic of any sort; in no way is it implausible that it could have physically been done - even if you don't believe it was.
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
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Offline You lie like a racist Nazi. At least you are a Zionist animal.
Okay, you've used this twice. What is a "Zionist animal". I ask because your English isn't that of a native speaker. I have a feeling you don't know what you're saying.
OK, here it is. Does this nazi, racist, zionist animal speak for the Rational Response Squad?
Now one of our posters is a Zionist animal? And simultaneously a Nazi? Do you not see how crazy that is? Have you ever been diagnosed with a mental illness?
I do not care how I am received. There is no self to destroy.
I'll take that as a "yes"?
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
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Offline As you are a child I will treat you condescendingly.
The issue is not what is given a name. The name Christmas has nothing to do with the incarnation of the son of god unless you are hopelessly bewildered.
As you are the one having the floor mopped with your ass, do you really want to tell everyone that you are having it done by a child? But at least you once again proven my case for me. You refuse to confront the actual question, resorting to insult instead, just like every other poorly educated skinhead I've encountered.
Now try answering the question. Explain too why the Germans continued to insist that the records remain sealed even after the other countries and groups were willing to unseal them. Sorry, but simply claiming that a name does not always bear association with something is just another example of your rhetorical prestidigitation. You are attempting to sweep the issue under the rug without exposing yourself to another lie. I am only bewildered by how transparent your asinine attempts at misdirection are. I've seen 5 year olds cover their tracks better. Must be all that inbreeding your parent-siblings did, trying to create a master race and all.
The issue from the beginning was the official claim of the government of Israel that there were 27 million holocaust survivors in 1945.
Where exactly have the Jews claimed that every holocaust survivor is Jewish? Cite sources, please. It certainly was not in the article you presented. I've already exposed this particular LIE of yours. Are you really so harebrained as to repeat it so soon?
The Nazis insisted Jews are a race. You are clearly a Nazi. Likely you are also a believer in the racial supremacy of Jews as opposed to the Nazis believing in the racial supremacy of Germans. I do not see a pfennig's nor a shekel's worth of difference between you two.
Ha! My gawd, man, but you make this too easy! It is like shooting fish in a barrel! Big, white, slow moving fish with a shallow gene pool in a tiny barrel. But I'll still give thanks where thanks is due. Because you see, you have graciously provided me with yet another of your contradictory lies. Now our adorable racist tries to pretend that Nazi's invented the concept of race, but yet in post # 39 of the Affirmative action/Race Questions thread he admits that the Germans were latecomers to the race game, and says that the English were promoting their racial superiority long beforehand. And lets not even try to pretend that the Nazi's were the first people to call Jews a race. Anyone with a college education probably remembers the line from Martin Luther's Against the Jews and their Lies.
' What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? '
But heck, we can't expect trailer trash skinhead crackers to be that well read, can we? Nor should we expect them to realize that Martin Luther lived some 400 years prior the the Nazi's. Hell, he probably thinks I'm talking about MLK!
I really should look for the thread where this ass clown traces the concept of race all the way back to the Greeks. But it would be pointless to quote it, as he would likely claim that he never wrote it and insist that my Zionist hacker allies broke into the site and planted it there under his name.
You lie like a racist Nazi. At least you are a Zionist animal.
In-fucking-credible! I don't simply call him a liar, I point out exactly where he lies. And his response is that old playground ' debate ' tactic " Un-uhhh, you're a liar! ". Oh well, you can't expect a highschool dropout to grasp the subtle nuances of debate, like evidence. But please, oh dumbfounded one, show me where I have lied. After all, I have SHOWN where you lied.
OK, here it is. Does this nazi, racist, zionist animal speak for the Rational Response Squad?
I would really like to know.
No simpleton, I speak for myself. And unlike slobbering puppy racism regurgitators, I actually think for myself.
If some day you abjure your nazi, racist views of Jews you might have a better reception.
Sorry, liar, but you are the neo-Nazi, not me. The Nazi's of the 1940's used race to persecute. You Nazi's of today use denial of some races to persecute. You've demonstrated this without my help.
I have decided that it is my solemn duty to expose each and every one of your lies, and recite them with all the zeal that you ressurect them. I intend to expose you for the lying gob of week old Nazi smegma that you are, and make sure that everyone that ever visits this forum understands that you have less credibility than the most wild eyed of Young Earthers. You are EXPOSED, bigot, and I will keep the spotlight trained on you until you choke on your own revilement and die.
( Waves a hand of dismissal )
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
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Offline Quote:And you are a fucking idiot.
Now that we are friend again let me first note you have not one formal citation for a single one of the following numbers.
*Facepalm*
The War Against the Jews (ISBN 055334532X), Lucy Dawidowicz.
(Let me guess: She's just part of the Zionist conspiracy, isn't she? Just like all of the census workers from who she compiled her figures?
Pardon my delay in responding. I tried and failed to come up with a polite way to respond.
Sorry but I guess I am back to the fucking idiot position. Are you really so unknowledgeable (ignorant, retarded) that you think unsourced numbers, indistinguishable from invented numbers numbers gain credibility by publishing them in a source you can cite?
Not much of an atheist who thinks citing an author who believes in bible miracles makes the miracles themselves credible.
Are you one of those "they can't publish it if it isn't true" types? My grandmother used to believe that sort of thing. Of course a 4th grade education in a country school in the early 1900s was not expected to result in critical thinkers.
I pointed out there was no credible source for the numbers. You have only established a rather well known holohugger publishes unsourced numbers and as such has no academic standards whatsoever.
Quote:AND I got into this pointing out Israel claimed there were 27 million holocaust survivors in 1945. What in the EFing hell are you trying to tell me?And you're wrong. Remember? We already pointed-out that you had your figures bungled-up because you read 'Jewish Holocaust Survivors' instead of 'Holocaust Survivors', the term actually used in the article.
Except you are unfamiliar with the Israeli use of the hollywood word which applies only to Jews. If you read the article you know it said that half of those survivors, a total of 1/2 million, live in Israel. Are you now going to claim that those bigoted goyim-haters actually permitted 1/4 million non-Jews to become citizens of Israel? Are you now going to tell me you believe there were 13.5 million JEWISH holocaust survivors in 1945?
Did you go to school with my grandmother?
Numbers are numbers. You can't just wave your hand and make them disappear.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline A_Nony_Mouse wrote:You lie like a racist Nazi. At least you are a Zionist animal.
Okay, you've used this twice. What is a "Zionist animal".
redundant
I ask because your English isn't that of a native speaker. I have a feeling you don't know what you're saying.
A zionist is a member of the political movement of Zionism. Their original plan was to peacefully displace the native population of Palestine to take it over. When Jabotinsky articulated the Revisionist movement it dropped the peaceful part and adopted expulsion or death by any means necessary. That is when the zionist terrorism against Palestinians and Brits began.
You can see it today in their war on their prisoners in Gaza. It is the sort of thing Sparta used to do.
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:OK, here it is. Does this nazi, racist, zionist animal speak for the Rational Response Squad?Now one of our posters is a Zionist animal? And simultaneously a Nazi? Do you not see how crazy that is? Have you ever been diagnosed with a mental illness?
I suggest anyone who, like the Nazis, says Jews are a race is quite the racist himself. And as calling Jews a race was most popularized by the Nazis what is your conclusion? And considering that IT called me a Nazi for saying Jews are not a race, having drawn first blood, he did no lead with the expected civility of discourse. I merely cited the correct NSDAP position and properly applied the pejorative.
Do you have a problem with that?
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:I do not care how I am received. There is no self to destroy.I'll take that as a "yes"?
Take it however you wish. One cannot be an atheist and be concerned with what believers think. It is the same here.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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A_Nazi_Mouse wrote:As you are a child I will treat you condescendingly.
The issue is not what is given a name. The name Christmas has nothing to do with the incarnation of the son of god unless you are hopelessly bewildered.
As you are the one having the floor mopped with your ass, do you really want to tell everyone that you are having it done by a child? But at least you once again proven my case for me. You refuse to confront the actual question, resorting to insult instead, just like every other poorly educated skinhead I've encountered.Now try answering the question. Explain too why the Germans continued to insist that the records remain sealed even after the other countries and groups were willing to unseal them. Sorry, but simply claiming that a name does not always bear association with something is just another example of your rhetorical prestidigitation. You are attempting to sweep the issue under the rug without exposing yourself to another lie. I am only bewildered by how transparent your asinine attempts at misdirection are. I've seen 5 year olds cover their tracks better. Must be all that inbreeding your parent-siblings did, trying to create a master race and all.
Considering all the records were under the control of the ICRC, colloquially the Red Cross, it is interesting how you became so misinformed as to think Germany had a say in it.
Either way, IF and WHEN you find evidence of the deliberate extermination of six million Jews in them you let me know. Until then the records do not apply to the issue of 27 million holocaust survivors in 1945.
A_Nazi_Mouse wrote:The issue from the beginning was the official claim of the government of Israel that there were 27 million holocaust survivors in 1945.Where exactly have the Jews claimed that every holocaust survivor is Jewish? Cite sources, please. It certainly was not in the article you presented. I've already exposed this particular LIE of yours. Are you really so harebrained as to repeat it so soon?
You previously claimed Jews were half of twelve million dead. So now you claim there were only 13.5 million Jews who survived in 1945. And since Israel claimed that 1/2 million of those surivivors were living in Israel you have to explain how those racist bigots let 1/4 million non-Jews become citizens of Israel. Or you can take a shot at claiming ALL jewish holocaust survivors live in Israel. Please feel free to learn to deal with numbers as facts. Perhaps a remedial course or two would help.
A_Nazi_Mouse wrote:The Nazis insisted Jews are a race. You are clearly a Nazi. Likely you are also a believer in the racial supremacy of Jews as opposed to the Nazis believing in the racial supremacy of Germans. I do not see a pfennig's nor a shekel's worth of difference between you two.
Ha! My gawd, man, but you make this too easy! It is like shooting fish in a barrel! Big, white, slow moving fish with a shallow gene pool in a tiny barrel. But I'll still give thanks where thanks is due. Because you see, you have graciously provided me with yet another of your contradictory lies. Now our adorable racist tries to pretend that Nazi's invented the concept of race, but yet in post # 39 of the Affirmative action/Race Questions thread he admits that the Germans were latecomers to the race game, and says that the English were promoting their racial superiority long beforehand. And lets not even try to pretend that the Nazi's were the first people to call Jews a race. Anyone with a college education probably remembers the line from Martin Luther's Against the Jews and their Lies.
' What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? '
He is now your authority on "race"? If your knowledge of the subject it stuck in the middle ages, and it is, I can see your belief in such nonsense. But as science has shitcanned so many of the beliefs of the religious, it has also disposed of this one.
And this at a time when Israel is "importing" so many very negroid Jews from Africa. Actually not quite, too Schwartze for the Ashkenazi convert Kazars who have no genetic relationship to either the Sephardim nor the Palestinians. Of course the latter two are genetically the same.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline So these walls of drivel are supose to proove what exactly? The thing that you hate the most doesn't exist?
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Offline Either way, IF and WHEN you find evidence of the deliberate extermination of six million Jews in them you let me know. Until then the records do not apply to the issue of 27 million holocaust survivors in 1945.
I'm sorry, are you saying that it would actually matter to you whether the number was, say six million or one million? Or even a quarter of that? I'd be outraged that 250,000 civilians were carted off to camps and systematically exterminated. I don't know why the number matters to you. The holocaust affected millions from different self-identifying groups, like Gypsies and homosexuals, as well as Jews. Have you not seen the camps? How much death would it take for you to consider it a problem? If Christians were rounded up (and you could make the argument that there are no true Christians, too) and slaughtered, would that be different? Would you wait until a good five million were systematically killed before considering it an issue?
I just don't see your argument. Can we not all agree that picking a group out and exterminating them - regardless of how we've identified them - is completely abhorrent?
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
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Offline A zionist is a member of the political movement of Zionism. Their original plan was to peacefully displace the native population of Palestine to take it over. When Jabotinsky articulated the Revisionist movement it dropped the peaceful part and adopted expulsion or death by any means necessary. That is when the zionist terrorism against Palestinians and Brits began.
If karma has anything to say about it, the Brits had it coming. The Palestinians, however, were sold out by their leaders long ago, as I'm sure you know. The modern zionists were definitely influenced by the German attacks on their people, because the whether or not the Nazis killed one or six million Jews, they identified Jews as a target.
As an aside, it would be equally incorrect to label someone "Canadian" or "Swiss" if we're going to get technical, since nationalism is just as artificial a construct as "Jew" or "Muslim".
I suggest anyone who, like the Nazis, says Jews are a race is quite the racist himself.
See, this part I can agree with. Racism is essentially the identification of physical characteristics as artificial differences between people. Aggressive racism would be considering those physical characteristics the justification for a violent imperative.
And as calling Jews a race was most popularized by the Nazis what is your conclusion?
If that were, in fact, the case, then there wouldn't be records of the peace that existed between Jews and Muslims in Spain during the eighth century. This was after a time of heavy persecution at the hands of Christians. Even Wikipedia has an article about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain
Do you have a problem with that?
I only have a problem understanding your point. You don't seem to have reached it. If your objection is to the country of Israel slaughtering thousands in Palestine, how could I disagree? It's disgusting that people feel they have to do these things to each other. Even in Northern Ireland, the English didn't slaughter the Irish like this, and the recent Palestinian attacks are comparable.
Personally, I think we've allowed history to be a great excuse for violence, since it appears we only remember the violence in history anyway.
Take it however you wish. One cannot be an atheist and be concerned with what believers think. It is the same here.
If I were not concerned with what believers think, I wouldn't be on this site.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
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Offline So these walls of drivel are supose to proove what exactly? The thing that you hate the most doesn't exist?
You will have to quote something so I have a hint as to what you are talking about. Please try again.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Either way, IF and WHEN you find evidence of the deliberate extermination of six million Jews in them you let me know. Until then the records do not apply to the issue of 27 million holocaust survivors in 1945.I'm sorry, are you saying that it would actually matter to you whether the number was, say six million or one million? Or even a quarter of that? I'd be outraged that 250,000 civilians were carted off to camps and systematically exterminated. I don't know why the number matters to you. The holocaust affected millions from different self-identifying groups, like Gypsies and homosexuals, as well as Jews. Have you not seen the camps?
Have you seen gas chambers in the camps? If so, tell me how you identified them independent of what you were told by a tour guide with a memorized spiel? Which gas chambers in camps?
How much death would it take for you to consider it a problem?
The murder of one or a million is the same. The penalty is death. That is a fact of this reality. Inflaming an uncritical, low IQ jury is not an ethical thing to do.
If Christians were rounded up (and you could make the argument that there are no true Christians, too) and slaughtered, would that be different? Would you wait until a good five million were systematically killed before considering it an issue?
The Albagensians were rounded up and destroyed and I don't miss them in the least nor does anyone consider it more than a fact of history. That was perhaps the largest mass slaughter of Christians although there were dozens of other lesser ones of Christians by Christians. Massacres of Muslims and Jews by Christians during the Crusades are also on record. Similarly Muslim slaughters of Christians are in western history books and Muslim slaughters of Jews are in the Koran. Regardless of a credibility the OT is the largest collection of mass murders and genocides we have.
What is the point of wallowing in any of it? It happened before. Belief in the genocides of the OT did not prevent whatever happened during WWII. What is the point of fanciful inventions about WWII?
I just don't see your argument. Can we not all agree that picking a group out and exterminating them - regardless of how we've identified them - is completely abhorrent?
The abhorrence of the genocides of the OT is one of the things that turns people away from religion. Yet I have read in Haaretz since the start of the Gaza slaughter of rabbis citing the OT genocides as justification for this slaughter. Agreement is meaningless. Remembering is meaningless. Agreement is meaningless. Never again means only until it is our turn. In some cases, until it is our turn again as in regard to the Palestinians.
It happens. It is what people do. It is what people celebrate -- see the Indian wars.
Additionally it is a rare thing. While there are dozens of examples of attempted and a few successful genocides, as a percentage of conflicts they are so few as to be considered no more than occassional anomalies. The allies declined the popular idea of sterilizing all Germans promoted by Jews no less. It is not abhorrent unless it goes both ways. Revenge gives no exception.
Just so the fake atheists here something to address, there is no other desription for what has been happening to the Tutis for the last ten years as other than extermination. While this has been going on the people who must "never forget" have been busy producing a holocaust movie every month and filling the airwaves with Nazi references.
Indeed, never again is until it is our turn.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline A_Nony_Mouse wrote:A zionist is a member of the political movement of Zionism. Their original plan was to peacefully displace the native population of Palestine to take it over. When Jabotinsky articulated the Revisionist movement it dropped the peaceful part and adopted expulsion or death by any means necessary. That is when the zionist terrorism against Palestinians and Brits began.If karma has anything to say about it, the Brits had it coming.
Karma was not involved in the League of Nations mandate. The Jews were terrorists who attacked both Palestinians and the Brits and they were correctly labeled so.
The Palestinians, however, were sold out by their leaders long ago, as I'm sure you know. The modern zionists were definitely influenced by the German attacks on their people, because the whether or not the Nazis killed one or six million Jews, they identified Jews as a target.
The first Zionist convention was held before Hitler was born. The revisionist movement took over Zionism while Hitler was still in prison. Zionist terrorism started before the Nazis came to power. Jabotinksy was dead before WWII started. Ex post facto justifications are just plain stupid.
As you still have so many "religious" influences on your thinking I presume you can see the "injustice" of the Palestinians being punished for the actions of the Germans.
As an aside, it would be equally incorrect to label someone "Canadian" or "Swiss" if we're going to get technical, since nationalism is just as artificial a construct as "Jew" or "Muslim".
The people who created the movment and did the murder and expulsion called themselves Jews. They said they did it. I say Jews did it. Where am I in factual error?
Jew means a follower/practitioner of Judaism. There is no other rational meaning. As for Canadian or Swiss they are legal issues defined by the laws of their countries as citizens of them.
I do not see why you are trying to make this harder than it is other than an attempt to preserve nonsense you have been told by people who know no better.
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:I suggest anyone who, like the Nazis, says Jews are a race is quite the racist himself.See, this part I can agree with. Racism is essentially the identification of physical characteristics as artificial differences between people. Aggressive racism would be considering those physical characteristics the justification for a violent imperative.
If you read closely you will see it is a quite desperate attempt by atheist ex-Jews to still claim they are Jews by any stupid thing they say with straight face. Another path is claim to be agnostic rather than atheist because Judaism allows that quibble. Rabbis make a lot of low level quibbles to let the non-believers return to the synagogue. Another one is to join a religion that does NOT require a conversion process as only conversion is considered by the rabbis to be leaving Judaism. Traditional families sit shiva for converts and are dead to them.
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:And as calling Jews a race was most popularized by the Nazis what is your conclusion?If that were, in fact, the case, then there wouldn't be records of the peace that existed between Jews and Muslims in Spain during the eighth century. This was after a time of heavy persecution at the hands of Christians. Even Wikipedia has an article about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain
Guess what? No encyclopedia is acceptable for college level work.
This "peace" you talk about was because the majority of those Jews CAME WITH the Moors. And the Moors were originally Jews who converted to Islam. After all, Islam is Judaism Lite. It is in that same article on the invention of the Jewish people. I think that is the one I used to start this thread.
As for all this whining about persecution ...
1. The Christians got the idea from the Old Testament.
2. Acts in the NT records the attempted extermination of Christians by Jews.
The first means do not set a bad example. The second means do not start a fight you can't finish.
As we are all athiests here, if people want to get shit on because of their stupid religion that only makes them greater idiots. All these briefs for the jewish variety of idiot is very theist.
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Do you have a problem with that?I only have a problem understanding your point. You don't seem to have reached it. If your objection is to the country of Israel slaughtering thousands in Palestine, how could I disagree? It's disgusting that people feel they have to do these things to each other. Even in Northern Ireland, the English didn't slaughter the Irish like this, and the recent Palestinian attacks are comparable.
Noting also the Brits had greater provocation from the Irish.
Personally, I think we've allowed history to be a great excuse for violence, since it appears we only remember the violence in history anyway.A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Take it however you wish. One cannot be an atheist and be concerned with what believers think. It is the same here.If I were not concerned with what believers think, I wouldn't be on this site.
Why in the world are you concerned with wha fools think?
It is sort of by definition that they do not think.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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Offline Have you seen gas chambers in the camps?
Yes.
I've also seen lampshades made out of human skin, photographs of mounds of dead, dying & mutilated humans, films of the same thing, documents recording the endeavor, parliamentary dialogues from Churchill discussing bombing the railways carting-off the victims (which, shamefully, never bore any fruit), corroborating testimony from independent victims, documentation from sources who had every reason to deny a Holocaust were it at all feasible to do so (the Soviet Union being a prime example) that affirm it instead, etc.
I imagine that nothing at all will convince you at this point; this is merely for the consideration of the audience.
If so, tell me how you identified them independent of what you were told by a tour guide with a memorized spiel? Which gas chambers in camps?
*Sigh*
The gas chamber I'm most familiar with (I admit, I don't know which camp this is from; I watched it years ago as part of a presentation in high school) were actually very neatly cut into cross-sections for the audience, so we could see the various components. Yes, the operation of the whole construct was explained to us (we were freakin' kids), but the explanation was sound and the intent of such a chamber is rather obvious.
What is the point of wallowing in any of it? It happened before. Belief in the genocides of the OT did not prevent whatever happened during WWII. What is the point of fanciful inventions about WWII?
Here's the unsettling thing about WWII:
It is the first time that very technically advanced civilizations (Germany and Japan) literally went on the rampage. The sheer amount of damage done over such a brief span of time as a result has no parallel in history, ever, anywhere. The whole of some countries (most notably Germany) were, literally, annihilated (there was hardly a brick left idly laying in the dirt in that scorched stretch of the Earth, if you could still dare even call it 'Earth' at that point). The propaganda mill, on every side of the conflict, was such that 'the enemy' - whether they were Axis or Allied forces or any of the myriad enemies identified by 'The Final Solution to the Jewish problem - was seen as something inhuman, deserving only of death.
The global conflict that raged from 1939-1945 and laid waste to much of the eastern hemisphere is a contemporary underscoring of what happens when we dehumanize one-another. We see this time and time again, whether it's the Tutsi in Rwanda, the Israelis and Palestinians, the Albanians, etc; where one group is people is trumpeted as sub-human, death and misery shortly follow.
Additionally it is a rare thing. While there are dozens of examples of attempted and a few successful genocides, as a percentage of conflicts they are so few as to be considered no more than occassional anomalies. The allies declined the popular idea of sterilizing all Germans promoted by Jews no less. It is not abhorrent unless it goes both ways. Revenge gives no exception.
*Facepalm*
'Sterilizing all Germans'? What the Hell are you talking about? Such an idea was never entertained by the Allies. There was hardly much of a German population left t sterilize, anyway. Berlin, for example, had been so emptied-out of able bodies that the Nazis were left to throw rifles to children and have them stand as the cities final line of defense against the onrushing Soviets.
Germany paid it's price in it's near total destruction. The Allies firebombed cities into burning oblivion, refusing even to this day to apologize for their retributive strikes.
At any rate, we're getting a tad distanced from the topic at hand, aren't we?
February 14, 1942The Fuhrer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.
That's from Goebbels's personal diary, which was recovered only by the most tremendous stroke of luck prior to being sold for scrap paper. What did he mean by 'clean-up the Jews'? Perhaps he was looking to give them all a bath?
At Treblinka, a layer of human ash was found by a Polish commission with a depth of twenty fucking feet. What does that indicate to you? Awful lot of prisoner mishaps?
What about the infamous mountains of eyeglasses at concentration camps?
The wedding rings?
The shoes?
The teeth and fillings?
The fucking bodies?
Nope. We have no evidence at all.
It's just 'religion'.
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
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Offline Apologies for the complete inebriation of the following post.
The murder of one or a million is the same. The penalty is death. That is a fact of this reality. Inflaming an uncritical, low IQ jury is not an ethical thing to do.
Hey, Crazy Pants, I'm over here. Sorry, what was that about the "penalty being death"? In what country was that? I live in Canada, which doesn't have a death penalty. Also, when did the jury join the party?
The Albagensians were rounded up and destroyed and I don't miss them in the least nor does anyone consider it more than a fact of history. That was perhaps the largest mass slaughter of Christians although there were dozens of other lesser ones of Christians by Christians. Massacres of Muslims and Jews by Christians during the Crusades are also on record. Similarly Muslim slaughters of Christians are in western history books and Muslim slaughters of Jews are in the Koran. Regardless of a credibility the OT is the largest collection of mass murders and genocides we have.
K, good point. All bad scenes.
What is the point of wallowing in any of it? It happened before. Belief in the genocides of the OT did not prevent whatever happened during WWII. What is the point of fanciful inventions about WWII?
Oh, well, there's the weight of evidence. Y'know, the ... oh, hey - Kevin already compiled some pictures for your perusal! That's pretty much the tip of the iceberg, so if you'd like to see more, I suggest you visit Germany.
The abhorrence of the genocides of the OT is one of the things that turns people away from religion. Yet I have read in Haaretz since the start of the Gaza slaughter of rabbis citing the OT genocides as justification for this slaughter. Agreement is meaningless. Remembering is meaningless. Agreement is meaningless. Never again means only until it is our turn. In some cases, until it is our turn again as in regard to the Palestinians.
Hey, you forgot that agreement is meaningless. What the fuck are you on about, anyway? That war and murder is bad? Thanks for that, big guy. I'll make sure to remember that. Or not, since remembering is meaningless.
Just so the fake atheists here something to address, there is no other desription for what has been happening to the Tutis for the last ten years as other than extermination. While this has been going on the people who must "never forget" have been busy producing a holocaust movie every month and filling the airwaves with Nazi references.
So ... you're upset that other genocides aren't getting enough attention? Y'know what would be great? If you had a point. I would really like that. Even if it were "Jews are totally bad". Because at least then, we'd have something to talk about. You're just going around in circles at this point. It's like watching a puppy who has to turn around three times before it can lie down.
I'm begging you, through my party-induced alcohol haze, to reach a point. Even an anti-Semitic point would be fine. Just let it out. Christ, it would be better than chasing your tail around, wouldn't it? Wouldn't you feel better if you just came out and said that Jews are evil and it's all their fault? I mean for everything, of course. Bad weather? It's probably the Jews. The economy? Jews. I can't get laid? Those damnable Jews are at it again - they're so industrious and thrifty! Will I never defeat them?
C'mon, they're so evil. You'll feel so much better.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
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Offline Wouldn't you feel better if you just came out and said that Jews are evil and it's all their fault? I mean for everything, of course. Bad weather? It's probably the Jews. The economy? Jews. I can't get laid? Those damnable Jews are at it again - they're so industrious and thrifty! Will I never defeat them?C'mon, they're so evil. You'll feel so much better.
Will, you have to post here whilst drunk waay more frequently. 
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
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Offline Quote:Have you seen gas chambers in the camps?Yes.
So you saw gas chambers.
(deletion for continuity)
If so, tell me how you identified them independent of what you were told by a tour guide with a memorized spiel? Which gas chambers in camps?
*Sigh*
The gas chamber I'm most familiar with (I admit, I don't know which camp this is from;
You just told me you saw them. You do not remember which camp you were at?
I watched it years ago as part of a presentation in high school) were actually very neatly cut into cross-sections for the audience, so we could see the various components. Yes, the operation of the whole construct was explained to us (we were freakin' kids), but the explanation was sound and the intent of such a chamber is rather obvious.
So you did not see a gas chamber. You are talking about some high school show and tell.
Tell me, if you had been shown a presentation of Noah's Ark would you be as gullible?
Your pictures show a miracle. All those piles of things, shoes, eyeglasses and 27 million survivors too. As 1/2 million of the 2004 survivors live in Israel and since Israel is the source of the study establishing 1 million survivors in the world in 2004 then at least 13.5 million of those survivors in 1945 had to be jewish survivors.
And yet all those piles!
Halelujah Brother! It is a miracle.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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The Israelis are committing genocide? Or are they merely taking and holding control over other people's land. They love taking and controlling land, but I can't recall them systematically wiping anyone our.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
Depends how you define genocide. There is an international treaty on genocide which defines the word. Eliminating a culture is included. Israel signed it and thus agrees with the definition. The article refers to it.
The treaty also covers attempted genocide as a separate issue. No matter how you look at WWII it was only attempted genocide in terms of the genocide treaty which again Israel agrees with.
Myself, forget genocide. Go for plain and simple homicide and make the case for premeditated murder. The penalty isn't any greater for mass murder than for simple murder. There is only one execution per murderer.
It is a waste of time making a mystery religion out of the jewish thing.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
A_nony_mous, I'm just curious:
Are you a holocaust denier?
I ask because you'd be the first person I've ever met who denies the established genetic fact of Jewish ethnicity who was not a holocaust denier.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
I suggest you google genetics and ethnicity and discover 1) genetics has to do with heritable features and 2) ethnicity is not heritable. Then you will learn you have no idea what you are talking about.
If you claim Jews are an ethnic group you are invited to recite the ethnic characteristics independent of religion which hold together ALL Jews in the world. That means Jews from Palestine who ululate by Arabs and Jews from New York City and Jews from India, Iran, Morocco, Russia and Africa as well as the recently discovered Jews of Columbia.
So until you can show all Jews share a common ethnicity independent of religion all you are claiming is deniers of the holocaust religion are smarter than you.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Well, since ALL Palestinians don't have identical genetics and therefore cannot claim to be a single ethnic group, the Jews can't possibly be guilty of ethnic genocide, even if they kill all of the Palestinians.
Funny how that logic can work against you, isn't it?
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
If you were capable of reading you would have yourself googled genetics and ethnicity and discovered the two have entirely different and unrelated meanings. Thus it is obvious to even the untrained eye that the claim of "identical genetics" (something found only in identical twins and virgin births outside of parthenogenic reproduction) and ethnicity are completely unrelated and your statement is semantic nonsense.
I also refer you to the UN Treaty on Genocide, of which an official copy exists in English, and learn all the definitions of genocide and attempted genocide to which Israel has agreed by signing it. If you had done so you would know Israel has agreed that killing is a common but not necessary part of genocide.
Wipe Israel off the map? Jews wiped Palestine off the map and no one appears to miss it. Why should it be any different?
Funny how the English language escapes you.
=====
So as not to waste this post as just pointing out the obvious let me include an article from the Telegraph.
[matt@dawn text2]$ cat Vende-French-call-for-revolution-massacre-to-be-termed-genocide
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/3964724/Vende-French-call-for-revolution-massacre-to-be-termed-genocide.ht...
[n.b., replace the ... with ml]
Monday 29 December 2008
Vendée French call for revolution massacre to be termed 'genocide'
It was one of the most infamous episodes of the bloody French Revolution.
By Henry Samuel in Paris Last Updated: 4:52PM GMT 26 Dec 2008
In early 1794 – at the height of the Reign of Terror – French soldiers marched to the Atlantic Vendée, where peasants had risen up against the Revolutionary government in Paris.
Twelve "infernal columns" commanded by General Louis-Marie Turreau were ordered to kill everyone and everything they saw. Thousands of people – including women and children – were massacred in cold blood, and farms and villages torched.
In the city of Nantes, the Revolutionary commander Jean-Baptiste Carrier disposed of Vendéean prisoners-of-war in a horrifically efficient form of mass execution. In the so-called "noyades" –mass drownings – naked men, women, and children were tied together in specially constructed boats, towed out to the middle of the river Loire and then sunk.
Now Vendée, a coastal department in western France, is calling for the incident to be remembered as the first genocide in modern history.
Residents claim the massacre has been downplayed so as not to sully the story of the French Revolution.
Historians believe that around 170,000 Vendéeans were killed in the peasant war and the subsequent massacres – and around 5,000 in the noyades.
When it was over, French General Francois Joseph Westermann penned a letter to the Committee of Public Safety stating: "There is no more Vendée... According to the orders that you gave me, I crushed the children under the feet of the horses, massacred the women who, at least for these, will not give birth to any more brigands. I do not have a prisoner to reproach me. I have exterminated all."
Two centuries on, growing calls from local politicians to have it declared a "genocide" have sparked intellectual debate.
"There was in the Revolution a clearly stated programme to wipe out the Vendéean race," said Philippe de Villiers, European deputy and former presidential candidate for the right-wing traditionalist Movement for France (MPF) party.
"Why did it take place? Because a people was chosen to be liquidated on account of their religious faith. Today we demand a law officially declaring it as a genocide; we demand a statement from the president; and recognition by the United Nations."
Mr de Villiers – who opposes Turkish entry into the EU – was in Armenia last month, where he compared the Vendée of 1794 to the 1915 massacres of Armenians. In neither case, he said, "have the perpetrators admitted their fault or asked forgiveness of the victims".
The bloody events of the Vendée were long absent from French history books, because of the evil light they shed on the Revolutionaries. However, they were well known in the Soviet bloc. Lenin himself had studied the war there and drew inspiration for his policies towards the peasantry.
According to the historian Alain Gérard, of the Vendéean Centre for Historical Research, "In other parts of France the revolutionaries killed the nobles or the rich bourgeoisie. But in Vendée they killed the people.
"It was the Revolution turning against the very people from whom it claimed legitimacy. It proved the faithlessness of the Revolution to its own principles. That's why it was wiped out of the historical memory," he said.
While today nobody denies that massacres took place, some historians argue they cannot be called "genocide" as there were excesses on both sides in what was a civil war, and they do not fit the UN criteria of killings based on ethnic or religious identity. "The Vendéeans were no more blameless than were the republicans. The use of the word genocide is wholly inaccurate and inappropriate," said Timothy Tackett of the University of California.
For Mr Gérard, the massacres were clearly "a deliberate policy on the part of the authorities".
For Mr de Villiers, an aristocrat whose family seat is in the Vendée, genocide does indeed apply as his forebears were killed for religious reasons: they had rebelled to protect their priests, who refused to swear an oath to the new constitution.
"It's the rare case of a people rising up for religious reasons. They did not rebel because they were hungry, but because their priests were being killed," he said.
"It is my burden – and my great honour – to defend the Vendée to the end of my days. The Vendée is not just a province of France, it is a province of the spirit. If today we enjoy the freedom to worship the way we choose, it is largely down to the sacrifice of those who died here."
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
If you could wipe your drool off of your monitor enough to read, you would see that I was using your own ridiculous argument against you. You cannot, without resorting to the Islamic religion, define a single ethnic characteristic common to ALL Palestinians. They are therefore, by your own childish attempt at logic, not an ethnic group. Their genetic makeup is LESS close to identical than that of the Jews, meaning that they are also not a race. They share no universal culture, meaning that they are not a culture. Therefore, once again, no matter how many of them the Jews kill, it still isn't genocide. In fact, killing all of the racist bastards is probably the only path to peace in the area. You were the blithering idiot that first demanded that ALL Jews show a common ethnic characteristic, not I. All I did was rub your own feces in your face.
Would that be the same treaty that was put in place due to the Jewish Holocaust? After all, the RACE of Jews know first hand about genocide, as does the Jewish CULTURE and RELIGION.
Well maybe if the Palestinians would quit attacking a superior military, that superior military might have no reason to respond with force. But since the cowardly dogs want to keep bombing civilian buildings, they deserve to be eradicated like the vermin they are. If they don't want to be treated like cockroaches, they should stop acting like cockroaches.
Funny how linguistics escapes you. Oh, and by the way, as nobody can ever possibly read words without vowels, you can't possibly be offended by the following. Yr prnts mst hv drppd y n yr hd whn y wr brn, bcs nbdy cn pssbly b s fckng rtrdd s y r thrws, y fckng mngld rcst dpsht.
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
Hold-up there, cowboy:
'The Holocaust Religion'?
You are a denier, then. Wow.
What's it like to see the world through a frame that distorts all credible historians into co-conspirators in a plot to enable the Jews to take over the world, I wonder?
(...I also wonder where you think 6 million or so European Jews happened to disappear to. Perhaps they walked through the hole to the center of the Earth, located at the North Pole, to rape the Aryan paradise therein?
)
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
I have been reading you guys all day and I find as the evening progresses we all become less civil. Except me, I just spel worsr.
I take this as a retraction of your idiotic claim that Jews are an ethnic group. If it is not then you failed to evidence your original statement so it is no different from a retraction.
A religion is a set of beliefs which are not shaken by facts, by impossibilities, or even by elementary algebra and arithmetic. Included in the forms of religion is ancestor worship which includes ritually remembering the dead ancestors. I invite your attention to Holocaust Remembrance Day rituals. Yad Vashem reads six million names. Israelis have Bar-B-Ques which is not a joke and not one Israeli newspaper I have found has remarked on its tastelessness.
I find it interesting that followers of the holocaust religion are unable to agree among themselves as to exactly what happened and refrain from disagreement as deligently as Christians at a World Council of Churches convention.
I also find it amusing that holocaustians cannot cite a single professional publication by a degreed historian on the extermination part of their holy holocaust while firmly believing it has been established by such historians. As to amateur historians, there is not a single mention of this extermination in DeGaulle's, Eisenhower's or Churchill's histories of WWII. Being given a "chair" in holocaust history does not turn a religion teacher like Debbie Lipstadt into a degreed historian.
I have no opinion on taking over the world although that desire can be attributed to most religions. As to wiping Palestine off the map, driving out 750,000 people and stealing their land certainly the holy holocaust justifies their punishment of Palestinians for actions attributed to the Germans.
All I know about numbers is that in 2004 Israel formally stated that there were one million holocaust survivors still alive in that year.
www.iht.com/articles/2005/04/20/news/holocaust.php
If one has not subborned his knowledge of algebra and arithmetic to the religion then it means there were 5.1 million holocaust survivors alive in 1945 if those to young to work were not killed and Jews continued to have children as though there was no war at all. If however those under 13 were killed for an inability to work then this same elementary calculation says there were 27.1 million holocaust survivors in 1945. Note there were only 13 million Jews in the world in 1938 and 9 million in Europe.
This problem is most easily resolved by assuming the official Israeli number, generated to support law suits for reparations, is deliberately exaggerated and thus it leads to hugely greater numbers of survivors in 1945 than there really were. I am inclined towards this explanation as the Israeli government had to have known what the one million implies as to the 1945 population.
As in any religion any application of arithmetic to sacred matters is blasphemous. Even so whereas the same arithmetic that works in every other aspect of the real world it does not apply to the religion.
I fully expect you and other followers of this religion to condemn the calculations while at the same time not being able to bring yourselves to the blasphemy of actually "testing" the faith by presenting your own calculations and results for the number of survivors in 1945.
Equally strange, people who pretend to have the cajones, the moral courage, to challenge a belief in god and to stand bravely against the entire believing world are wimps when it comes to the slightest question about the holocaust religion. Even the miracle of a little girl wandering eastern Europe protected by wolves is not to be questioned. Miracles are sacred and not to be questioned.
We find atheists and agnostics rejecting what millions have said over the centuries about their experience with god yet will accept not only without skeptism but with reverence everything and anything people say about their holocaust experience. Holocaust survivors are elevated to living saints, a status not merited by homosexuals and gypsys who survived that same holocaust.
Moral character and a skeptical approach to life is not measured by something so common as atheism/agnosticism, As per Religulous that is 17% of the US population. It takes no courage to join the 17%. Moral character lies in applying the skeptical approach to anything and everything regardless of what it is.
When it comes to moral condemnation how does "denier" uttered by holocaust believers differ from "atheist" when uttered by god believers? Simply pointing out a major numerical discrepency in numbers leads to an accusation of "denial of everything" as did questioning the Virgin Birth lead to the accusation of "denial of everything." In league with the Nazis has replace in league with Satan while the place of the ubiquitous, evil demons has been replaced by the ubiquitous, evil Nazis. Both lurk everywhere to lead the faithful astray be it from God or from the "thee" itself Holocaust.
Do not hesitate to respond even if it does show you fit the stereotype of an uncritical, unquestioning follower of the holocaust religion. Work up a good Vatican rage while avoiding the Vatican Rag.
Keep in mind the bottom line. I know Israel has to be deliberately exaggerating the number of survivors alive today. You refuse to question any claim and thus do not know which is false.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Pardon me but perhaps I am not aware of what I have posted. Where did I claim the Palestinians were an ethnic group? Nor have I claimed they were a race. I posted a short history of the evidence that idea was invented by the murderous Zionists. Pardon the redundancy. All Zionists are murderers by definition.
As you have never read it, why should I educate you one such elementary matters?
As to your invention of a jewish "culture" perhaps you would describe this culture, independent of religion. It is not a culture to do drunken Russian circle dances while singing Hava Negilah to the tune of Irving Berlin. (BTW: Harry Belefonte sings it better but still to Berlin's tune.)
The right to resist military occupation is sanctioned in international law. Similarly the right to attack members of the military and military assets is enshrined in international law. About 1/4 of Israelis are members of the military as international law makes no distinction between on and off duty nor between active and reserve. Israel puts its military forces among its civilian population.
Additionally Israel uses its civilian bus system to transport its miltary personnel. That makes the buses lawful military targets as much as were the trains in Germany.
But in the final analysis, Jews went to Palestine with the openly expressed intent to drive out the native population and steal their land. That is what they did. Anyone beyond the fantasies of childhood would know the owners would kill and have a right to kill to regain their private property. Jews knew this is the way life would be in Palestine when they went there. Over half of today's Jews in Israel migrated there knowing this is the way life would be forever after.
They could at least be Mensch and accept the consequences of their own choices. The constant whining is annoying from children and pitiable from adults.
Of all the peoples who have engaged in war with the Jews, mostly in self-defense, the Palestinians are the only people who have not engaged in a war. They have imitated but rarely equalled the Jewish terrorists in Mandate Palestine. The bombing of the King David hotel and the lynching of two British soldiers comes to mind as well as Deir Yassin and dozens of other massacres.
As to self-defense, 1956 Egypt, 1967 Egypt and Syria, 1982-2000 Lebanon, 2006 Lebanon, 2008-???? Gaza.
The racist shows how clever it thinks it is by missing the entire point of that discussion.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml