Does liberal/conservative conversion ever happen?

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Does liberal/conservative conversion ever happen?

We all know about religious conversions and atheist de-conversions. These can drastically change the way you see the world.

But have you ever experienced, or do you know someone who has experienced, a similar conversion either from conservative views to liberal views or from liberal views to conservative views?

I'm *not* talking about subtle shifts, e.g. from extreme conservative to more moderate conservative. I'm asking, Can a basically conservative person become a basically liberal person, or vice versa?

I don't know of any cases personally, which is why I'm asking. I've changed my views over time, but I've always been basically liberal in my stance. People in my family have also remained basically the same in their stance throughout their lives.

It would be interesting, if such cases occur, to compare them to religious/atheist conversions. How long do they typically take? What are the typical observations/events which trigger them? What are the lines of reasoning the person went through as they transitioned? Etc.

Anyone got any stories of liberal/conservative conversion?

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Live in a foreign country

Live in a foreign country (not as a solider) and one of two things will happen in a few months

a) you go native and accept the new way of life, if you are an American living anyone else that means becoming 'liberal'

b) decide your way of life is so superior from seeing the outside world you will shift to the right and become more 'conservative'

But what I can guarantee won't happen is that your politics will stay the same


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mrjonno: Do you know anyone

mrjonno: Do you know anyone specifically who made such a change? I would be interested to hear a kind of before and after comparison of what they were like and how they got there, in terms of their thinking and experiences.

Some background: This video was what spurred this question. It's very interesting, although I don't think it says everything there is to say about the topic:

YouTube - The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Belief.

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Some personal experience 

Some personal experience  and a  bit of logic.

Your politics are partly inherited (more memes than genes but still via your parents) and partly the narrow (for most) the environment you are brought up in.

You cannot possibly understood the politics of your country without leaving it.

The logic of it from actually speaking to people on this forum and similar ones. What I find amazing as a Brit is I'm talking to highly intelligent people whose politics don't feel like they come from another country but from another planet. It's made me think that if I was brought up in such a culture then maybe my politics would be completely different.

One example I assume the average IQ of an American is 100 same as eveywhere else. Your typical American thinks having some sort of private ownership of firearms to some extent is ok. Your average Brit also has an IQ of 100 but would treat someone who had a gun in a similar way to a paedophile ( no official death penalty in the UK but unofficially if you go around with a gun you arent going to get to court alive the police will shoot on sight).

So similar intelligence completely different views that means we are talking about your environment/parents completely shaping your political views, I can only assume if I was born an American i would think gun ownership was ok or if you were born in the UK you would think a gun owner was a paedophile.

Other examples new immigrant citizens of a country are generally more patriotic/nationalist/'conservative' than the general population as they tend to have something to proof

 


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natural wrote:Anyone got any

natural wrote:

Anyone got any stories of liberal/conservative conversion?

My father-in-law has actually become quite liberal in the 12 years I've known him. He was never insane right-wing Republican ala Rush Limbaugh or anything, but he was certainly to the right of moderate. I think part of his conversion was due to both of his daughters turning out liberal, and the rest was due to the results of 8 years of George W. Bush. He voted for Obama in the last election.

 

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

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 PJ O'Rourke springs to

 PJ O'Rourke springs to mind.


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there are plenty of famous

there are plenty of famous examples of left-to-right "conversion."  the ones who immediately spring to my mind are john dos passos, sidney hook, and james burnham.  dos passos went from being a socialist to a cold warrior and supporter of goldwater.  sidney hook was a communist before also becoming a cold warrior.  burnham was a trotskyist, then ditto.  hook and burnham both ended up being lauded by reagan.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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In what regard are we

In what regard are we discussing Liberalism and Conservatism?... Socially?....fiscally?...foreign policy?....

Nothing like losing half your 401K to turn someone into fiscal conservative...and nothing like getting mugged to turn one into a social conservative...


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Quote:But have you ever

Quote:
But have you ever experienced, or do you know someone who has experienced, a similar conversion either from conservative views to liberal views or from liberal views to conservative views?

I grew up in a conservative religious family, and basically held to both of those values until my early to mid 20s.  Along with my deconversion from theism, I experienced a substantial shift in my social political views, and am now very liberal in that regard.  My shift from conservative to liberal in this area was drastic and abrupt.  My economic stance has changed significantly, but the change has been more gradual, and not as polar as my social position.

Whereas I held firmly to the principles of Reaganomics in my early 20s, I now believe that stable strong economies are actually built from the bottom up, so that's a complete reversal.

I am now a firm believer in the necessity of strong social support mechanisms and tax relief for the poorest members of society.  However, I do not think socialism works in totality.  I believe a semi-free market, regulated to prevent monopoly and other abuse, is the best system.  So this is not a complete polar shift.  I suppose economically, I've moved from conservative to moderate.

I used to strongly support the drug war.  I now oppose it, and believe that marijuana should be completely legal, and that most other drug use should be treated as a peripheral issue, not a main pursuit.

I never believed that gay marriage should be outlawed, but to be fair, this simply wasn't an issue when I was a conservative.  It was something that I had considered, though, and I always thought that the constitution should provide equality for all citizens, even if I didn't approve of their particular exercise of their equality.  Of course, now I am a strong advocate for complete equality for gays on all political and social fronts.

 

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I used to be rather liberal

I used to be rather liberal in terms of the government should get involved lots of times.

 

I quickly changed upon giving the idea more than several seconds of thought.

 

 

I am a firm conservative in the sense that I think the government should just bud out most of the time and I support a fully free market.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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 Quote:I used to be rather

 

Quote:
I used to be rather liberal in terms of the government should get involved lots of times.

 

I quickly changed upon giving the idea more than several seconds of thought.

 

 

I am a firm conservative in the sense that I think the government should just bud out most of the time and I support a fully free market.

Funny.  That's the same thing that happened to me (except for the fully free market part) but I say that I went from conservative to liberal.  I think your use of the terms is more correct than mine, but Americans are just fucked up.  We have no idea what conservative and liberal mean.  It's not worth fighting, so I just go with what most Americans think the words mean.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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natural wrote:We all know

natural wrote:

We all know about religious conversions and atheist de-conversions. These can drastically change the way you see the world.

But have you ever experienced, or do you know someone who has experienced, a similar conversion either from conservative views to liberal views or from liberal views to conservative views?

I'm *not* talking about subtle shifts, e.g. from extreme conservative to more moderate conservative. I'm asking, Can a basically conservative person become a basically liberal person, or vice versa?

I don't know of any cases personally, which is why I'm asking. I've changed my views over time, but I've always been basically liberal in my stance. People in my family have also remained basically the same in their stance throughout their lives.

It would be interesting, if such cases occur, to compare them to religious/atheist conversions. How long do they typically take? What are the typical observations/events which trigger them? What are the lines of reasoning the person went through as they transitioned? Etc.

Anyone got any stories of liberal/conservative conversion?

Google "Yippies".

Yes, I've seen it. I was around in the 50's and 60's.

For the turncoat's it's intimately tied to the amount of money they ended up
making, and how whacky they were when they were younger.
They may not have been into religion, but may have been lost souls jumping head first
into different stuff that they were ultimately unhappy with. So to, Evangelical conversions / religion took the place of something else they previously were devoted to.

In terms of time for a transformation... given a starting age 20, it happens to turncoaots anywhere from as few as 15 years, to 25 years on the outside.

I asked one guy about it. His response was "I grew up." He was not more than 15 years my senior, and I was in my 40's at that time.

Actually, he acummulated quite a bit of wealth, as a Doctor, and owner of a S/W Dev. firm with folks working for him, and a big house in Virginia.

I suppose you could have even
though GWB was a liberal-minded young guy. Although, he wouldn't have fit my own criteria for what I did and still would consider a Liberal of the 50's, 60's, or 70's.

Today's so-called Liberals are not much different than Republicans of several decades ago. Witness, Obama, the Clinton's, and T. Kennedy
are all friends of, and in the pockets of big business, or simply business. They're not Progressive, in my view, nor are they friends of American Citizens. (Granted, Kennedy has been an exception in a number of cases, but he's not a Progressive, in my view.)


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natural wrote:We all know

natural wrote:

We all know about religious conversions and atheist de-conversions. These can drastically change the way you see the world.

But have you ever experienced, or do you know someone who has experienced, a similar conversion either from conservative views to liberal views or from liberal views to conservative views?

I'm *not* talking about subtle shifts, e.g. from extreme conservative to more moderate conservative. I'm asking, Can a basically conservative person become a basically liberal person, or vice versa?

I don't know of any cases personally, which is why I'm asking. I've changed my views over time, but I've always been basically liberal in my stance. People in my family have also remained basically the same in their stance throughout their lives.

It would be interesting, if such cases occur, to compare them to religious/atheist conversions. How long do they typically take? What are the typical observations/events which trigger them? What are the lines of reasoning the person went through as they transitioned? Etc.

Anyone got any stories of liberal/conservative conversion?

Your thread begs the question of what do you define as "liberal" and "conservative"? I find atheists to be either liberal, libertarian or somewhere in between (like me). I think we need limited government to provide some backbone of a safety net but I also ferociously believe in personal fiscal responsibility. Government cannot solve all problems.

Often being politically liberal seems to give allowances to the most intolerant among the masses as in the case of multiculturalism. Let's take Ontario, Canada for example. There is universal health care and government backing of various social/religious groups' representation. From this milieu are Islamic extremists who want Sharia courts. Why should any sane and tolerant Canadian taxpayer pay a nickel for an extremist group's welfare. And when liberals stay silent, the far right catch hold of the frustrated masses as in the case of the nordic liberal democracies of Europe.

There are several liberal ideas which I support which include providing a safety net for the poor, some form of universal healthcare, cultural diversity, feminism to name a few. Yet noble ideas can be misused to violate civil liberties. I recall back in the early 80s at University of Ottawa standing in front of the department of Women's Studies where I saw a huge banner which read "Men should stop watching pornography". I personally love porn (just like many pro-sex feminists) and I strongly defend freedom of speech. No one has the right to regulate your personal freedom to masturbate. I get extremely annoyed when "liberals" encase themselves in rigid ideological spheres and self-righteously preach to the masses of what is right and wrong just like their nutbag religious conservative counterparts.


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I tend to see the term

I tend to see the term 'Conservative' and 'Aristocrat' as more or less the same thing. They will lie all of the time and claim that they want 'less government' (whatever that means); in reality, they simply are not interested in sharing their wealth.

I'm a Liberal in that, knowing what enslavement to the human condition and what 'letting things take their course' means (suffering and, in the end, destruction), I think intelligent intervention is necessary if we wish to make progress (Conservative thinking: 'If man were meant to fly, we'd be born with wings!' Liberal thinking: 'Flying would be a handy thing. Let's whip-up a set of wings')

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
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:O

I was a conservative republican, based off the ideology on the founding principles of the party.

 

 

The GOP however today is entirely different, and I changed over to be a democrat because we are unfortunately trapped in a two-party system by the "winner takes all" rules they have set up, to block any other groups out in this nation. The democratic party has problems, but mostly seems to be ran with a bit more diversity of ideas. There is no diversity in the republican party, and they discourage it.

 

 

Diversity of ideas is needed to solve problems. It exposes flaws that need to be corrected BEFORE being implimented.

 

 

I am a liberal today, because I believe that everyone should have freedom to do whatever they want unless it tramples on the freedom directly of others.

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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Does moderate liberal to

Does moderate liberal to moderate libertarian count?

natural wrote:

I'm *not* talking about subtle shifts, e.g. from extreme conservative to more moderate conservative.

Guess not.......

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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I will never vote for any

I will never vote for any political party that is homophobic, foreigner hating racists regardless of any other politics they possess.

In the UK this basically rules out at least until recently the Conservative party (I think their leadership is changing on this but there grass roots are as a bigoted as ever).

Unfortunately I also won't vote for a party that can't win , ie 3rd party's in most cases are a waste of a vote.

So I don't really have much of a choice on who I vote for in the UK, the Labour party which I truely despise for their lies and incompotence.

Americans should really be grateful that they had such a clear choice in their last elections


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 Quote:I will never vote

 

Quote:
I will never vote for any political party that is homophobic, foreigner hating racists regardless of any other politics they possess.

So, in America, that would leave you with Libertarians, Green, and Democrats.

Quote:
Unfortunately I also won't vote for a party that can't win , ie 3rd party's in most cases are a waste of a vote.

You have no choice but to vote Democrat if you ever become an American citizen.

Quote:
Americans should really be grateful that they had such a clear choice in their last elections

I voted for Gore, Kerry, and Obama.  There never was any choice in the matter.  It was a forced move in each case.  Out of the three, Obama is the only one I would have voted for if there had been viable third or fourth party choices that had a chance to win in either of the previous elections.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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natural wrote:We all know

natural wrote:

We all know about religious conversions and atheist de-conversions. These can drastically change the way you see the world.

But have you ever experienced, or do you know someone who has experienced, a similar conversion either from conservative views to liberal views or from liberal views to conservative views?

Yeah: me. When I shed my belief in a god, I went back and started reevaluating my political beliefs as well. I am psychologically drawn to the pro-life position, for example. Rationally, however, I realize that it not a cut and dry situation, and I have been revising my beliefs. Then again, I have always tried to hold beliefs for a reason(which is why I eventually had to leave Christianity). I was never a "straight line" conservative or liberal. Rarely do I find that real world topics can be defined by terms as shallow as "liberal" and "conservative." But, in very general terms, I have certainly shifted in my opinions towards a more liberal position.

All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.


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I definitely like Ron Paul's

I definitely like Ron Paul's campaign to change the way elections are done in order to break the "2 horse race"
We need that in Britain as well, perhaps even more so than America.
The current system forces us to either choose between the lesser of two evils or waste our vote on a no hoper.
It also seems to give established parties a monopoly of votes - surely such a stifling of competition leads to complacency!