Some things that I should have added to my last post

ToLookBeyond
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Some things that I should have added to my last post

 I guess I really didn't make myself clear on why I converted from atheism in my last post. I feel that this will help you understand more:

 First, I would like to say that I am NOT trying to convert atheists here. I respect atheists...but only until they start disrespecting people for their beliefs.

 I. How I converted:

-Though I've told, very,very few people (perhaps three or less), the ones I have told find it surprising to learn that at one time, I was an atheist.

 From what I've heard, many people who become atheists do not convert back. Once they become atheist, they stick with it until evidence comes forth that proves the existence of a God. As atheists, they put all of their focus on facts, knowledge and science. I did the exact same thing.

 Ironically enough, however, it was my trust and connection to science that lead me back to God.

 At first, I thought I was tricking myself. I thought that I was just going through a phase that would soon come to an end. However, what I though was a phase soon turned out to be much, much more. I soon found myself beginning to question my atheism. Here are some of the things that lead me back to belief:

I. Anthony Flew changed his mind:
-This one may have been obvious to anyone reading this. When Flew, the man who gained the title as the "World's most Notorious Atheist" changed his mind, and became a deist, I was both shocked and intrigued. How could the man who was known to hold huge debates against theists on their belief in God convert to belief? 

 For a while, I held off on doing research. I decided to wait because I still wasn't sure about what I was feeling. I did some reading on the internet about different viewpoints, but still was 100 percent convinced. It was then that I heard about Flew's book There is a God: How the World's most Notorious Atheist changed his Mind. At the time, school was my main priority, so I didn't have that much time to read it. However, thanks to the marvels of the internet, I was able to find a lot of good details and information regarding the chapters in the book.

 As I read about the book, I became very, very interested. One chapter that really grabbed me was Chapter 6 ("Did the Universe Know We Were Coming?&quotEye-wink. When I read information and details (people were kind enough to highlight the important bits of information), it made me wonder, "how did the universe know we would be here?" Think about it, why is it that this universe, our universe, is so, SO finely tuned for us? Out of any universe that we could of gotten (multiverse), why did we get this one?
As I researched, and became more affilated with books highlighting this issue (i.e. Why the Universe Is the Way It Is by Hugh Ross), I became....more skeptical of my atheist beliefs.

 However, the real bombshell, the one thing that really shot me away from atheism is when I became famaliar with
Micheal Dowd. At first, I had know idea who Dowd was. When I first became familiar with Dowd, I thought that he was a little off the deep-end. "A preacher who believes in evolution?" "Is this guy for real?" Were the first thoughts that entered my brain. I heard some things about his book Thank God for Evolution, but wasn't really sure about it. However, being an open-minded indivdual, I decided to dive into the book. What I found floored me like no other book had. Here was a book that was not trying to use science to support ID, or make claims that science could connect with ID etc, etc, etc. Here was a book that was not just supporting evolution, but showing how evolution could be seen as God's greatest gift to us. As I said above, I was floored. Never, ever did I ever imagine I would come across a book like TGFE.

 To be honest, before I became an atheist, I did believe it possible for science and religion could co-exist. The problem is that I could never find anyone in the science or religious world that thought the same way as I did. The more I found disconnection, the more I began to realize that the idea of a God was becoming less and less believable. This is one of the factors that led me to atheism.

 However, what TGFE was doing was showing me that not only was it okay to believe in both things, it was something that had to be done. Micheal shows that if religion and science can finally bridge the gap between them, the world can be a much, much better place. More than that, Micheal shows how evolution is God's greaest gift, and how it defines the true creationism that so many conservative, die hard believers speal about. I won't go into many more details, but even though my time with the book was short, by the time I had put it down, I was, whether you believe it or not, no longer an atheist. That's right, I converted from atheism. TGFE had done for me what the The God Delusion had done for so many people doubting their faith. I am now proud to say that I am an evolution theist (or theistic evolution as you like to call it).

II. A message to the new atheist.

 Since the arrival of atheists like Dawkins and Harris, a new breed of atheist has come forth. What I have seen from this atheist is nothing good. Atheism has become just as violent, haeful, and spiteful as the religious fanatics that we see in today's world. The new atheists, as they're being called, has become a group that has, in my opinion, made it their mission to label anyone with beliefs as delusional nutcases. I am disgusted at what atheism has become in this country. What's worse, is that it seems to me that people who are part of this bandwagon to not even recongnize the fact that they have become just as hateful as the people that they're fighting against. As far as I'm concerned, atheism and theism is wasting its time with all of this needless fighting. They need to learn that even though they have different beliefs, they can, in fact, work together to achieve the same goals.


Cpt_pineapple
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Never read Dowd or

Never read Dowd or Flew[Apperently Flew didn't even write that book]

 

But I would also recommend Ken Miller.

 

 

 

 


geirj
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ToLookBeyond wrote:-Though

ToLookBeyond wrote:


-Though I've told, very,very few people (perhaps three or less), the ones I have told find it surprising to learn that at one time, I was an atheist. 

So are we.

ToLookBeyond wrote:

From what I've heard, many people who become atheists do not convert back.

99.99% it would seem, if the folks on this site are any indication.

ToLookBeyond wrote:

Once they become atheist, they stick with it until evidence comes forth that proves the existence of a God.

And what evidence would this be?

ToLookBeyond wrote:

As atheists, they put all of their focus on facts, knowledge and science.

Crazy atheists! How could they do such a thing?

ToLookBeyond wrote:


Ironically enough, however, it was my trust and connection to science that lead me back to God.

At first, I thought I was tricking myself. I thought that I was just going through a phase that would soon come to an end. However, what I though was a phase soon turned out to be much, much more. I soon found myself beginning to question my atheism. Here are some of the things that lead me back to belief:

What is this, a soap opera? It's this kind of writing style that makes your claim questionable.

ToLookBeyond wrote:


I. Anthony Flew changed his mind:
-This one may have been obvious to anyone reading this. When Flew, the man who gained the title as the "World's most Notorious Atheist" changed his mind, and became a deist, I was both shocked and intrigued. How could the man who was known to hold huge debates against theists on their belief in God convert to belief? 

 For a while, I held off on doing research. I decided to wait because I still wasn't sure about what I was feeling. I did some reading on the internet about different viewpoints, but still was 100 percent convinced. It was then that I heard about Flew's book There is a God: How the World's most Notorious Atheist changed his Mind. At the time, school was my main priority, so I didn't have that much time to read it. However, thanks to the marvels of the internet, I was able to find a lot of good details and information regarding the chapters in the book.

 As I read about the book, I became very, very interested. One chapter that really grabbed me was Chapter 6 ("Did the Universe Know We Were Coming?&quotEye-wink. When I read information and details (people were kind enough to highlight the important bits of information), it made me wonder, "how did the universe know we would be here?" Think about it, why is it that this universe, our universe, is so, SO finely tuned for us? Out of any universe that we could of gotten (multiverse), why did we get this one?
As I researched, and became more affilated with books highlighting this issue (i.e. Why the Universe Is the Way It Is by Hugh Ross), I became....more skeptical of my atheist beliefs.

Love the ellipsis for dramatic effect!

Antony Flew's dementia was taken advantage of by those who would use him as a tool against atheism. The New York Times did a nice expose on the whole There is a God sham:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magazine/04Flew-t.html


ToLookBeyond wrote:


 However, the real bombshell, the one thing that really shot me away from atheism is when I became famaliar with
Micheal Dowd. At first, I had know idea who Dowd was. When I first became familiar with Dowd, I thought that he was a little off the deep-end. "A preacher who believes in evolution?" "Is this guy for real?" Were the first thoughts that entered my brain. I heard some things about his book Thank God for Evolution, but wasn't really sure about it. However, being an open-minded indivdual, I decided to dive into the book. What I found floored me like no other book had. Here was a book that was not trying to use science to support ID, or make claims that science could connect with ID etc, etc, etc. Here was a book that was not just supporting evolution, but showing how evolution could be seen as God's greatest gift to us. As I said above, I was floored. Never, ever did I ever imagine I would come across a book like TGFE.

 To be honest, before I became an atheist, I did believe it possible for science and religion could co-exist. The problem is that I could never find anyone in the science or religious world that thought the same way as I did. The more I found disconnection, the more I began to realize that the idea of a God was becoming less and less believable. This is one of the factors that led me to atheism.

 However, what TGFE was doing was showing me that not only was it okay to believe in both things, it was something that had to be done. Micheal shows that if religion and science can finally bridge the gap between them, the world can be a much, much better place. More than that, Micheal shows how evolution is God's greaest gift, and how it defines the true creationism that so many conservative, die hard believers speal about. I won't go into many more details, but even though my time with the book was short, by the time I had put it down, I was, whether you believe it or not, no longer an atheist. That's right, I converted from atheism. TGFE had done for me what the The God Delusion had done for so many people doubting their faith. I am now proud to say that I am an evolution theist (or theistic evolution as you like to call it).

If God created the universe, why would it be surpising that evolution is part of that creation? Still doesn't mean there's a God.

ToLookBeyond wrote:

II. A message to the new atheist.

 Since the arrival of atheists like Dawkins and Harris, a new breed of atheist has come forth. What I have seen from this atheist is nothing good. Atheism has become just as violent, haeful, and spiteful as the religious fanatics that we see in today's world. The new atheists, as they're being called, has become a group that has, in my opinion, made it their mission to label anyone with beliefs as delusional nutcases. I am disgusted at what atheism has become in this country. What's worse, is that it seems to me that people who are part of this bandwagon to not even recongnize the fact that they have become just as hateful as the people that they're fighting against. As far as I'm concerned, atheism and theism is wasting its time with all of this needless fighting. They need to learn that even though they have different beliefs, they can, in fact, work together to achieve the same goals.

OK, Glenn Beck. How are we new atheists violent? Please cite incidents.

 

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

Why Believe?


Sinphanius
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You really should have just responded in your first thread.

The Idiotic Fine Tuning Argument wrote:
Think about it, why is it that this universe, our universe, is so, SO finely tuned for us? Out of any universe that we could of gotten (multiverse), why did we get this one?

"Wait, scratch that, reverse it, Thank you."

The Universe isn't finely tuned towards us, we are finely tuned to it. The only way the advent of humanity is in any way unlikely or amazing is if you think humanity had to be here, then yes, without divine intervention it is extremely unlikely that humanity would be here. Unfortunately for you, you must now prove that humanity 'had' to be here. In other words you are already presupposing a supernatural purpose for humanity in the initial premise of the argument.

Furthermore; humanity is less than moss on a speck of a worthless world that amounts to little more than a zit on the ass of the universe. That is hardly fine tuned. To use Thunderf00t's argument except larger in scope, this is like finding a single molecule of Iron in North America and concluding that North America is finely tuned for the existence of Iron.

Furthermore Junior; if you belief that there is a multiverse of possible universes, and only this one is capable of supporting human life, then of course we live here. We couldn't live anywhere else by the very nature of your assertion. Take Thunderf00t's argument again, except substitute 'North America' with 'The Milky Way Plus Andromeda and maybe the Cat's Eye Nebula' and keep everything else the same.

Revenge of the Son of Furthermore; if you accept evolution, you cannot use this argument, as the most basic tenet of evolution is that living creatures adapt to their environment.

This is like rolling 50,000 dice, and stating that the result was divinely orchestrated because of how improbable it was that the dice would land how they did.

We aren't meant to be, we are a happy accident.

For most of the rest of your post I'm not going to bother responding to, especially since you likely won't respond, like how you didn't respond to your other thread, however I want to comment on your rant about the 'new atheists'. Namely, I want you to point out to me where Dawkins or Harris advocates burning theists at the stake in the name of Atheism. Until you can find that, then he is no where near the theistic in terms of brutality and hatred.

Good Day Sir.
 

When you say it like that you make it sound so Sinister...


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So you were an atheist, then

So you were an atheist, then a theist, then an atheist again, and now a theist!!

Keep the conversions going, you might end up in Guinness, but there's no point in answering to you anymore when you keep making baseless claims like ''Atheists are da evil'' and.....

''They need to learn that even though they have different beliefs, they can, in fact, work together to achieve the same goals.''

Golly, I thought there was a debate because they wanted to achieve different goals. Like ''most'' atheists(that I know at least, and other rational folk) agree that gays should have the same rights as everybody else while plenty of theists(most specifically Christians) just start spouting ''God Hates Fags.'' How, pray tell, can they ''work together'' to achieve the ''same goals.''

 

''Black Holes result from God dividing the universe by zero.''


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ToLookBeyond wrote: I guess

ToLookBeyond wrote:

 I guess I really didn't make myself clear on why I converted from atheism ...

Let me speak plainly...

I don't give a flying fuck as to what you believe, nor am I convinced that you are "honest", i.e. I do not believe you exist, however, it amuses me to respond all the same.

Modulater.


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Sinphanius wrote:This is

Sinphanius wrote:

This is like rolling 50,000 dice, and stating that the result was divinely orchestrated because of how improbable it was that the dice would land how they did.

Exactly. Did you happen to read my thread, well not that it matters, it's not like it's a secret argument. lol

''Black Holes result from God dividing the universe by zero.''


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I did, however I'm pretty

I did, however I'm pretty sure I used the dice analogy at least once when I first joined, long before I read your post, I think against Presuppositionalist. I have lost the post by now.
Actually I think my original post involved dropping a handful of pennies and possibly maybe other coins off the Empire State Building, or maybe a two story apartment complex, close enough.

I did read your post, and was tempted to comment on it somewhere along the lines of (jokingly) accusing you of plagiarism, but that would have required me to search for my original post.

Considering how simple the argument is, I'm suprised I haven't heard it used more.

I agree with your first post in this thread, it seems he's going for the Split Personality Badge. I stuck with Diplomat myself.

 

 

When you say it like that you make it sound so Sinister...


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How did my muffin pan know

How did my muffin pan know my muffins were going to be round?  I suppose it must be divine intervention. 

All you athiests, just go bake some muffins and you too will lose your silly belief in non-precognostic muffin pans.


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Quote:However, what TGFE was

Quote:
However, what TGFE was doing was showing me that not only was it okay to believe in both things, it was something that had to be done. Micheal shows that if religion and science can finally bridge the gap between them, the world can be a much, much better place. More than that, Micheal shows how evolution is God's greaest gift, and how it defines the true creationism that so many conservative, die hard believers speal about. I won't go into many more details, but even though my time with the book was short, by the time I had put it down, I was, whether you believe it or not, no longer an atheist. That's right, I converted from atheism. TGFE had done for me what the The God Delusion had done for so many people doubting their faith. I am now proud to say that I am an evolution theist (or theistic evolution as you like to call it).

Oy.

 

So, let me ask you a question:

 

If you were to read a book that supports some legitimate science, but also promotes the notion that the government is brainwashing you with radio waves and that aliens are kidnapping people in the middle of the night, will you believe all of the ridiculous conspiracy bunk just because it was front ended by science? Would that, in your mind, somehow make science 'compatible' with belief in NWO conspiracies and alien abductions?

If not, why are you making a special exemption for a deity?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Welcome to the

Welcome to the forum!

ToLookBeyond wrote:

 First, I would like to say that I am NOT trying to convert atheists here. I respect atheists...but only until they start disrespecting people for their beliefs.

But, I already disrespect people's beliefs. Hehehe.

Quote:
As I read about the book, I became very, very interested. One chapter that really grabbed me was Chapter 6 ("Did the Universe Know We Were Coming?&quotEye-wink. When I read information and details (people were kind enough to highlight the important bits of information), it made me wonder, "how did the universe know we would be here?" Think about it, why is it that this universe, our universe, is so, SO finely tuned for us? Out of any universe that we could of gotten (multiverse), why did we get this one?

Most qualified scientists and philosophers today don't think the cosmological arguments are nearly strong enough to establish the existence of an intelligent creator. Maybe you should have done more research.


Quote:
Micheal shows that if religion and science can finally bridge the gap between them, the world can be a much, much better place.

Wait, so you converted on an appeal to pragmatism and emotion?

Quote:
Atheism has become just as violent, haeful, and spiteful as the religious fanatics that we see in today's world.

Really? How many atheist suicide bombers have you heard about on the news?

Quote:
The new atheists, as they're being called, has become a group that has, in my opinion, made it their mission to label anyone with beliefs as delusional nutcases. I am disgusted at what atheism has become in this country. What's worse, is that it seems to me that people who are part of this bandwagon to not even recongnize the fact that they have become just as hateful as the people that they're fighting against.

Broad, sweeping assertions.

Quote:
As far as I'm concerned, atheism and theism is wasting its time with all of this needless fighting. They need to learn that even though they have different beliefs, they can, in fact, work together to achieve the same goals.

I have no intention of harassing theists or oppressing anyone's freedom of expression. If you desire more open-minded discussions, your time would be much better spent trying to crack the thick skull of fundamentalists.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


spike.barnett
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ToLookBeyond wrote:I respect

ToLookBeyond wrote:

I respect atheists...but only until they start disrespecting people for their beliefs.

What's wrong with disrespecting people for their beliefs? Can you honestly say you respect a person who believes the earth is flat even when faced with such facts as satellite imagery?

ToLookBeyond wrote:

To be honest, before I became an atheist, I did believe it possible for science and religion could co-exist.

And you were mostly right. While not technically mutually exclusive, religion and science don't play nice. Science tends to disprove religion, and religion tends to oppress science.

After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.

The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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Renee Obsidianwords
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ToLookBeyond wrote:  From

ToLookBeyond wrote:


 From what I've heard, many people who become atheists do not convert back. Once they become atheist, they stick with it until evidence comes forth that proves the existence of a God. As atheists, they put all of their focus on facts, knowledge and science. I did the exact same thing.

How does one become atheist? Is it catching?

This is as far as I am reading into your 'additional post'.

You should pick a belief system to follow each month ~ switch it up~ seems as though your not very focused so by doing this you should create a happy little life for yourself. What is next? Scientology? Then maybe you can de-convert to atheism again before jumping on the Mormon bandwagon (I heard they have neat underwear)

Slowly building a blog at ~

http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/


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It seems strange that you

It seems strange that you start out by saying you respect atheists, but in your last paragraph you state that you are "disgusted" by them.  And also state that they are violent, hateful, and spiteful.  I guess that was aimed at the "new atheists," but it is unclear what you define as a new atheist besides writing books espousing atheism. 

 

Anyway good luck

Responsibility: A detachable burden easily shifted to the shoulders of God, Fate, Fortune, Luck or one's neighbor. In the days of astrology it was customary to unload it upon a star. ~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary, 1911


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Renee Obsidianwords wrote:(I

Renee Obsidianwords wrote:

(I heard they have neat underwear)

I second that for the OP. My ex-Mormon friend told me they are very comfortable.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Yup! Comparing the number of

Hey!

 

What happened to my post?


treat2 (not verified)
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I guess Atheists believe in

I guess Atheists believe in Baptism.