Atheists and their doubts
Offline When faced with their own mortality atheists doubt the strength of their own convictions. When it comes time for "lights out" the whole idea of death being equivalent to being not borne gets a worrisome. Why? Because there was no time before not being borne when we thought about not being borne.
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Offline I expected to hear all kinds of false bravado. It is a lot like the naive soldier who yearns for battle, and then shits his pants when he faces the real deal. Big talk. It is easy to talk abstractly about death and how much you "understand", all while conveniently ignoring what you don't understand. It is easy to feel confident when you have an internet full of "yes man" all patting each other on the back. You can always go to the atheist book reports for strength when you are confounded by questions. You can always join with the minions pretending to have a deep understanding of how this whole thing works.
We are atheists we do not believe in false anything. As for pretending deep understanding we don't do that eather. "To die is to sleep, you exist no more." Death is no deeper then Shakespears quote.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
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Offline I expected to hear all kinds of false bravado. It is a lot like the naive soldier who yearns for battle, and then shits his pants when he faces the real deal. Big talk. It is easy to talk abstractly about death and how much you "understand", all while conveniently ignoring what you don't understand. It is easy to feel confident when you have an internet full of "yes man" all patting each other on the back. You can always go to the atheist book reports for strength when you are confounded by questions. You can always join with the minions pretending to have a deep understanding of how this whole thing works.
You self-centered, egotistical little prick. Yes, I have been faced with death, and I haven't buckled. And I have watched others die in the same way. Don't presume to fucking lecture me, you little shit. You run back to your sky daddy and cry on his fucking lap, you scared little bitch. I am presently watching a man I have loved and admired my whole life wither away physically and mentally. There are no lies between us about some future life, and he's meeting his end with as much dignity as he can muster. He is certainly not going to die puling on his knees like the theists I have watched die. Why don't you crawl back to your church full of "yes men" and go fuck yourself.
All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
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Offline I expected to hear all kinds of false bravado. It is a lot like the naive soldier who yearns for battle, and then shits his pants when he faces the real deal. Big talk. It is easy to talk abstractly about death and how much you "understand", all while conveniently ignoring what you don't understand. It is easy to feel confident when you have an internet full of "yes man" all patting each other on the back. You can always go to the atheist book reports for strength when you are confounded by questions. You can always join with the minions pretending to have a deep understanding of how this whole thing works.
Or, we might be like real soldiers, who don't shit their pants when under fire at all. Or we might be like cowboys, and cowboy up when faced with the real deal. Or we might not worry about death because we realize it's inevitable and we have nothing to gain or lose. Or we might be very naive, but it won't matter because when faced with the real deal, we'll be dead.
Or maybe we're really scared, but choose not to believe something really fucking stupid (like the existence of a god) just because we're scared.
Or maybe we're immortal.
You just never know.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
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Offline How many years have gone since you last jumped rope?
Many. I don't undertsand your post.
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Offline OrdinaryClay wrote:I expected to hear all kinds of false bravado. It is a lot like the naive soldier who yearns for battle, and then shits his pants when he faces the real deal. Big talk. It is easy to talk abstractly about death and how much you "understand", all while conveniently ignoring what you don't understand. It is easy to feel confident when you have an internet full of "yes man" all patting each other on the back. You can always go to the atheist book reports for strength when you are confounded by questions. You can always join with the minions pretending to have a deep understanding of how this whole thing works.
You self-centered, egotistical little prick. Yes, I have been faced with death, and I haven't buckled. And I have watched others die in the same way. Don't presume to fucking lecture me, you little shit. You run back to your sky daddy and cry on his fucking lap, you scared little bitch. I am presently watching a man I have loved and admired my whole life wither away physically and mentally. There are no lies between us about some future life, and he's meeting his end with as much dignity as he can muster. He is certainly not going to die puling on his knees like the theists I have watched die. Why don't you crawl back to your church full of "yes men" and go fuck yourself.
You are not the only person facing grief and difficulties. Projecting your anger, fears and frustrations will not help. The emotional feelings you get when attacking Christians is just an illusion.
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Well Clay, let me tell you, my father was an atheist before I was. He was also a member of the hemlock society. Towards the end of his life, he kept three painless yet lethal method of offing himself on hand and he was prepared to stack them for certainty.
So there was at least one atheist who was ready to off himself in the face of a lingering death should the opportunity have presented itself. Yet by your logic, he could not have been capable of doing the job unless he first converted to some form of theism, presumably because that would make it alright for him do that.
Way to go dude...
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."
=
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Offline OrdinaryClay wrote:I expected to hear all kinds of false bravado. It is a lot like the naive soldier who yearns for battle, and then shits his pants when he faces the real deal. Big talk. It is easy to talk abstractly about death and how much you "understand", all while conveniently ignoring what you don't understand. It is easy to feel confident when you have an internet full of "yes man" all patting each other on the back. You can always go to the atheist book reports for strength when you are confounded by questions. You can always join with the minions pretending to have a deep understanding of how this whole thing works.
Or, we might be like real soldiers, who don't shit their pants when under fire at all. Or we might be like cowboys, and cowboy up when faced with the real deal. Or we might not worry about death because we realize it's inevitable and we have nothing to gain or lose. Or we might be very naive, but it won't matter because when faced with the real deal, we'll be dead.
Maybe. Still, grand talk now is pretty cheap. I believe there are atheists who die still believing there is no God. I believe there are atheists who die still cursing Christians.
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Offline I expected to hear all kinds of false bravado. It is a lot like the naive soldier who yearns for battle, and then shits his pants when he faces the real deal. Big talk. It is easy to talk abstractly about death and how much you "understand", all while conveniently ignoring what you don't understand. It is easy to feel confident when you have an internet full of "yes man" all patting each other on the back. You can always go to the atheist book reports for strength when you are confounded by questions. You can always join with the minions pretending to have a deep understanding of how this whole thing works.
For a minute there I thought you were painting a picture of the Republican Party platform of the last 8 years ?
You know OC, anxiety over death is pretty much universal. We all find our own ways to cope w/ these feelings. I usually tend not to begrudge anyone that reaches out for something (anything) to help them deal with this anxiety.
What I do find reprehensible however; is any institution that would try to exploit this universal anxiety for power, money and their own selfish interests.
I quote Thomas Paine:
All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
and our 3rd President..Thomas Jefferson:
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear....Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue on the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you."
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
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Well Clay, let me tell you, my father was an atheist before I was. He was also a member of the hemlock society. Towards the end of his life, he kept three painless yet lethal method of offing himself on hand and he was prepared to stack them for certainty.
Just curious, why three?
So there was at least one atheist who was ready to off himself in the face of a lingering death should the opportunity have presented itself. Yet by your logic, he could not have been capable of doing the job unless he first converted to some form of theism, presumably because that would make it alright for him do that.
I don't know what logic you refer to here? All, I'm saying is that there will be doubt.
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Offline Maybe. Still, grand talk now is pretty cheap. I believe there are atheists who die still believing there is no God. I believe there are atheists who die still cursing Christians.
I agree. And I believe many Christians die wondering if there is a god. I believe many of them die cursing the god they do believe in. Many of them probably die scared of going to hell.
We all die alone, and most of us die scared.
As for false bravado: most of us have that, too. Even those of us who are not currently afraid of death, but don't want to die quite yet.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
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Offline You know OC, anxiety over death is pretty much universal. We all find our own ways to cope w/ these feelings. I usually tend not to begrudge anyone that reaches out for something (anything) to help them deal with this anxiety.
Yes, and this anxiety, will lead to doubts about what one has done their whole life. What they have done to others. What their doings will do to those left behind.
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Offline nigelTheBold wrote:OrdinaryClay wrote:I expected to hear all kinds of false bravado. It is a lot like the naive soldier who yearns for battle, and then shits his pants when he faces the real deal. Big talk. It is easy to talk abstractly about death and how much you "understand", all while conveniently ignoring what you don't understand. It is easy to feel confident when you have an internet full of "yes man" all patting each other on the back. You can always go to the atheist book reports for strength when you are confounded by questions. You can always join with the minions pretending to have a deep understanding of how this whole thing works.
Or, we might be like real soldiers, who don't shit their pants when under fire at all. Or we might be like cowboys, and cowboy up when faced with the real deal. Or we might not worry about death because we realize it's inevitable and we have nothing to gain or lose. Or we might be very naive, but it won't matter because when faced with the real deal, we'll be dead.
Maybe. Still, grand talk now is pretty cheap. I believe there are atheists who die still believing there is no God. I believe there are atheists who die still cursing Christians.
Why christians? Just curious.
I personally couldn't care less about christians. They are the same to me as muslims, jews, or scientologists.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
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Offline AmericanIdle wrote:You know OC, anxiety over death is pretty much universal. We all find our own ways to cope w/ these feelings. I usually tend not to begrudge anyone that reaches out for something (anything) to help them deal with this anxiety.
Yes, and this anxiety, will lead to doubts about what one has done their whole life. What they have done to others. What their doings will do to those left behind.
This would be unique to atheists how?
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
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Offline The superstious people all want to go to heaven. But they are afraid to die. Why?
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Offline When faced with their own mortality atheists doubt the strength of their own convictions. When it comes time for "lights out" the whole idea of death being equivalent to being not borne gets a worrisome. Why? Because there was no time before not being borne when we thought about not being borne.
Blatantly ignorant, unjustified, erroneous assumptions about what actually happens when atheists confront death.
It is also a fact that believers can and do suffer agonizing doubts and worries in that situation - there is no basis at all in fact for your assumption that theist belief automatically provides the best emotional and intellectual support in confronting the end.
I have seen this assumption of the universality of the "fear of death" frequently from Theists, including professional philosophers. From both personal introspection and listening to or reading seriously thoughtful atheists I know, as certainly as one can know such things, that this is manifestly false, and people who are strongly disposed to the Theist position are by definition in no position to deny, any more than I could affirm with such bland certainty what you actually think if it you said I was mistaken about your feelings.
Nevertheless, it leads me to at least strongly suspect that it is actually individuals in whom this fear is strong who are most likely driven to 'believe', in an effort to allay this fear. Unfortunately, it also seems that, when it comes to the crunch, it does not necessarily work as hoped. This is based on confidential reports from medical staff present at the final moments of many people. It is the sort of thing that believers very obviously do not wish to hear, so it does not get spread around, and respect for privacy of their patients means that doctors and nurses are not going to make a big effort to publicize their observations.
EDIT: IOW, anxiety about approaching death is of course common, but it does vary widely in intensity and in its effects on the thoughts of the individual, and is not correlated to beliefs in quite the way commonly assumed by believers.
For a famous counter-example to your OP, from here:
In death, Hume was determined to set an example. James Boswell got the journalistic scoop of the Enlightenment when he interviewed Hume on his death bed. Hume stated that he no longer believed in religion and was sceptical of any afterlife, adding that when he heard a man was religious, he concluded he was a rascal, although he had known some instances of very good men being religious. In the face of death, Boswell found Hume ‘placid’ and ‘even cheerful’. Deeply troubled by his own religious convictions, Boswell was very disturbed by the Hume’s unconcerned atheism. Weeks later, he appealed to Dr Samuel Johnson to calm his fears;
Johnson told Boswell that Hume was lying. The evidence suggests otherwise.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline AmericanIdle wrote:You know OC, anxiety over death is pretty much universal. We all find our own ways to cope w/ these feelings. I usually tend not to begrudge anyone that reaches out for something (anything) to help them deal with this anxiety.
Yes, and this anxiety, will lead to doubts about what one has done their whole life. What they have done to others. What their doings will do to those left behind.
Okay...well doubt is also a part of the human experience.
Are you trying to argue that those who would exploit (or give in to) the fear of death have managed to clear themselves of all dilemmas of conscience while those who refuse to do so, constantly wrestle w/ self doubt and their own self examination ?
I think you may be on to something. Which group do you suppose is vastly more deserving of honor and integrity ?
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
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Offline JillSwift wrote:Odd. I faced death recently in the form of a flu and a diminished immune response and never once hoped for an afterlife.
Were you in intensive care? Are you over 60?
Why? Don't want to believe me? Going to add some qualifier and move the goalposts? Just want to hang on to your assumption that all atheists don't really think there is no god?
Why did you ignore this?:
Do theists worry they've chosen the wrong god to belive in on their death bed? Surely there must be a moment when a Christian says "Oh my, what if the Muslims are right?!" or "Goodness, those Buddhists and thier karmic wheel might just be it!"
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
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Offline You are not the only person facing grief and difficulties. Projecting your anger, fears and frustrations will not help. The emotional feelings you get when attacking Christians is just an illusion.
When faced with their own mortality atheists doubt the strength of their own convictions. When it comes time for "lights out" the whole idea of death being equivalent to being not borne gets a worrisome. Why? Because there was no time before not being borne when we thought about not being borne.
It is no secret that death can be a scary proposition. To say that some people are afraid of it would not be untrue. I can sympathize with those people, both theist and atheist. The implication of being dead, however, is that you no longer exist. -You can qualify this in any way you wish, but to suggest that you continue living as you are, in the capacity that you do, would be dishonest. I don't aim to knock down unfalsifiable propositions, however.- I sympathize with those people (who fear death), but I do not share their fear. I will die. I have a choice to face my ultimate mortality intellectually or to be overcome by some misplaced fear in simply never being conscious again. I can hardly care about being conscious again once I am not conscious and thusly I won't allow myself to be scared of the fact that one day I won't.
So, good job pointing out that people can fear death; that people can be so afraid of death that they might question their convictions. If you are, however, simply iterating a take on atheists and their place outside of foxholes, it's a fairly bad argument. There's no reason to think that any given theist should be any more comfortable with her beliefs than any given atheist.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
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Offline Why did you ignore this?:I wrote:I know all theists worry that they're wrong. They all have thier deep abiding doubts. WHy not just fess up?Do theists worry they've chosen the wrong god to belive in on their death bed? Surely there must be a moment when a Christian says "Oh my, what if the Muslims are right?!" or "Goodness, those Buddhists and thier karmic wheel might just be it!"
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
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Offline The superstious people all want to go to heaven. But they are afraid to die. Why?
A father's reassurance to his son that the roller-coaster is safe does not remove all his fears.
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Offline Dracos wrote:The superstious people all want to go to heaven. But they are afraid to die. Why?
A father's reassurance to his son that the roller-coaster is safe does not remove all his fears.
That's why the dad goes on the ride with his son.
Shame your heavenly father didn't/couldn't do that for his children. Instead, he makes them more frightened of death.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
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Offline ... From both personal introspection and listening to or reading seriously thoughtful atheists I know, as certainly as one can know such things, that this is manifestly false, ...
How certain is this? Introspection and discussions, Okay. Like Nigel said. We die alone.
... This is based on confidential reports from medical staff present at the final moments of many people. It is the sort of thing that believers very obviously do not wish to hear, so it does not get spread around, and respect for privacy of their patients means that doctors and nurses are not going to make a big effort to publicize their observations.
Well good thing for atheists we got all these confidentiality laws and such. Helps build resolve. So Hume was calm and his Christian buddy was all shook up. Sounds almost mythical.
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Offline OrdinaryClay wrote:I was in ICU. I'm only 42, but my immune system is compromised. Early prognosis was "get your affairs in order", but modern antiviral drugs got me past it.JillSwift wrote:Odd. I faced death recently in the form of a flu and a diminished immune response and never once hoped for an afterlife.
Were you in intensive care? Are you over 60?
I'm glad to hear it. Honestly. I hope you continue to do well.
Why? Don't want to believe me?
I wanted to hear how close you were. Obviously, there are atheists who really do know what it is like to face their own mortality. If you say you had no doubt. Okay. Only the small voice in each of our mind knows for sure.
Just want to hang on to your assumption that all atheists don't really think there is no god?
I did not assume that. I assumed all atheists had doubt when push comes to shove.
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Offline You are not the only person facing grief and difficulties. Projecting your anger, fears and frustrations will not help. The emotional feelings you get when attacking Christians is just an illusion.
Projecting my fear? Fuck off. You are the ass who claims that my experiences are "false bravado." Go back to your church full of "yes men" and bury your head in the sand.
All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
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Offline I expected to hear all kinds of false bravado. It is a lot like the naive soldier who yearns for battle, and then shits his pants when he faces the real deal.
Is it ? How do you know ? That analogy doesn't really work, imo. You know what to expect from a battle.
Big talk. It is easy to talk abstractly about death and how much you "understand", all while conveniently ignoring what you don't understand.
I must have missed a post. Who here claimed they "understood" ? I thought the whole point was that you people claim to know what happens after death, and we're the ones who say there's no way of knowing that for sure.
It is easy to feel confident when you have an internet full of "yes man" all patting each other on the back. You can always go to the atheist book reports for strength when you are confounded by questions. You can always join with the minions pretending to have a deep understanding of how this whole thing works.
Feel confident about what ? Why would I need atheist books ? I just don't bother with questions that can't be answered. And I'm not sure what "minions" you're talking about, but "pretending to have a deep understanding of how this thing works", I'm sorry, but that's your shtick, not mine.
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Offline Yes, and this anxiety, will lead to doubts about what one has done their whole life. What they have done to others. What their doings will do to those left behind.
Welcome to being fucking human, OC. I've watched too many Christians grovel at the end of their days to think that there is any damned difference.
All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
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Offline I did not assume that. I assumed all atheists had doubt when push comes to shove.
I don't know how I'll respond to a long, lingering death, but I do know when faced with the prospect of eminent demise, the last thing on my mind is whether or not there is a god. I think if I do have doubts, they are buried quite deeply.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
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Offline I did not assume that. I assumed all atheists had doubt when push comes to shove.
I note that you, again, ignored my question about theist doubts.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
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Offline OrdinaryClay wrote:I expected to hear all kinds of false bravado. It is a lot like the naive soldier who yearns for battle, and then shits his pants when he faces the real deal.
Is it ?
Why do ask? Because it doesn't work for you? Why doesn't it work for you?
How do you know ?
Are you concerned I can't know?
OrdinaryClay wrote:Big talk. It is easy to talk abstractly about death and how much you "understand", all while conveniently ignoring what you don't understand.I must have missed a post. Who here claimed they "understood" ? I thought the whole point was that you people claim to know what happens after death, and we're the ones who say there's no way of knowing that for sure.
I thought atheists claimed to know what happened after death? I think you missed more then one post.
OrdinaryClay wrote:It is easy to feel confident when you have an internet full of "yes man" all patting each other on the back. You can always go to the atheist book reports for strength when you are confounded by questions. You can always join with the minions pretending to have a deep understanding of how this whole thing works.Feel confident about what ? Why would I need atheist books ? I just don't bother with questions that can't be answered. And I'm not sure what "minions" you're talking about, but "pretending to have a deep understanding of how this thing works", I'm sorry, but that's your shtick, not mine.
Confident about their beliefs. You know the ones they all deny having.
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Offline I note that you, again, ignored my question about theist doubts.
I didn't ignore it. I didn't answer it. I don't understand the relevancy to atheist doubts.
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Offline I didn't ignore it. I didn't answer it.
I don't understand the relevancy to atheist doubts.
You will find doubting atheists. You will find doubting Christians. You will find doubting Buddhists. You will find doubting Hindus. You will find doubting Muslims.
You will find utterly certain atheists. You will find utterly certain Christians. You will find utterly certain Buddhists. You will find utterly certain Hindus. You will find utterly certain Muslims.
So what?
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
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Offline OrdinaryClay wrote:=(0.o)= What the hell is the difference?I didn't ignore it. I didn't answer it.OrdinaryClay wrote:People doubt. It happens, just not to everyone. My point in asking about them is to point out the utter absurdity of your all-ecompasing claim.I don't understand the relevancy to atheist doubts.You will find doubting atheists. You will find doubting Christians. You will find doubting Buddhists. You will find doubting Hindus. You will find doubting Muslims.
You will find utterly certain atheists. You will find utterly certain Christians. You will find utterly certain Buddhists. You will find utterly certain Hindus. You will find utterly certain Muslims.
So what?
You may be under the illusion that your valid points mean anything to Paisley, er I mean OrdinaryClay.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
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Offline You may be under the illusion that your valid points mean anything to Paisley, er I mean OrdinaryClay.
Edit: I think I might be onto something: atheist doubt invalidates atheism? I can keep guessing until I figure out a reason for the obvious to have been pointed out.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
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Offline You may be under the illusion that your valid points mean anything to Paisley, er I mean OrdinaryClay.
Then deny it was just to save face. 
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
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Offline OC, you know why the atheists who posted aren't scared of death. For myself, I stopped caring about death about a decade ago. It's going to happen - why fret it?
The question is, why are you so afraid? The Heaven stories not filling the bill?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
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Offline Why do ask? Because it doesn't work for you? Why doesn't it work for you?
Like I said, the analogy doesn't work because you'd know what to expect from a battle.
Are you concerned I can't know?
Er...what ? I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean. I don't think I'm specifically concerned about anything you could or couldn't know right now.
I thought atheists claimed to know what happened after death? I think you missed more then one post.
Are you talking about people who say that when they die, they cease to exist ? That's a reasonable assumption, I suppose. You should ask them for proof.
Now me, I don't actually know what happens after death. That means there are infinite possibilities. So what would be the point of worrying if one of these might be true or not ?
Confident about their beliefs. You know the ones they all deny having.
You seem to be an expert on atheism, so do tell, what beliefs do I have that I'm denying ?
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Offline You may be under the illusion that your valid points mean anything to Paisley, er I mean OrdinaryClay.
Paisley and OrdinaryClay are quite clearly different. Here's how you can tell them apart:
Paisley creates a thread with a title like, "Claim foo proves the absurdity of the materialistic worldview!" Then he proceeds to address every rebuttal with posts like, "Ah! So you agree that foo proves the absurdity of the materialistic worldview," and, "That research disproving my assertion is controversial, and so is invalid, unlike my controversial and vague research which supports my assertion," and, "If you insist on being infantile, you cannot post to this thread."
OC creates a thread with a topic like, "Atheists are all baby-eating communist necropedophiles!" with an initial post that is tangentially related to the thread topic (say, 'Atheists aren't afraid of death. Atheists also like babies and children.'), and then pretend if the thread topic isn't his real assertion. Where Paisley asserts, OC implies. Where Paisley is brash, OC is coy.
They are really fairly easy to tell apart. I'd say fraternal twins, rather than identical.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
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Offline OrdinaryClay wrote:Why do ask? Because it doesn't work for you? Why doesn't it work for you?Like I said, the analogy doesn't work because you'd know what to expect from a battle.
OrdinaryClay wrote:Are you concerned I can't know?Er...what ? I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean. I don't think I'm specifically concerned about anything you could or couldn't know right now.
OrdinaryClay wrote:I thought atheists claimed to know what happened after death? I think you missed more then one post.Are you talking about people who say that when they die, they cease to exist ? That's a reasonable assumption, I suppose. You should ask them for proof.
Now me, I don't actually know what happens after death. That means there are infinite possibilities. So what would be the point of worrying if one of these might be true or not ?
OrdinaryClay wrote:Confident about their beliefs. You know the ones they all deny having.You seem to be an expert on atheism, so do tell, what beliefs do I have that I'm denying ?
1. I think OC is trying to describe the young man who expects to find glory in battle but only finds a gory reality. He's much like that young man - he expects to be covered in heavenly glory after he dies. I wonder if he'll be disappointed when he finds that all a person really is after death is dead. What happens after is anyone's guess - I lean toward nothing happening (or at least, me not caring).
2. He thinks that not having a belief is really a belief.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
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Actually, facing my own mortality strengthens my convictions.
You have a HUGE brush. Thanks for your opinion.
That's amusing coming from a follower of a religion based on such a strong fear of death and dying.
Don't try to make generalizing claims about entire classes of people.
I don't "doubt the strength of my own convictions" when facing my own mortality. I think its sad. I think it is undesirable, but I accept it because it is unavoidable. I don't need the feel-good lollypop fantasies that you no doubt enjoy; or the feeling of justice that comes from believing my enemies will be tortured forever by a vengeful god. No, I accept that I will one day cease to function; that my body will become food for the worm and the e.coli bacteria; and that I won't be around to see anyone I love or care about ever again.
But you know what? I will be too dead to care.
Considering there was no time before not being born that I worried about not being born, I don't worry about not being born now. Why? Because I was not born for a very, very long time, and during that very long time I wasn't worried. So if I wasn't worried for over 14 billion years about not being born, why should I start worrying now about not being born?
Of course, if I was not not born during that time I wasn't born, I reckon I could not worry about not not being born. So that increases my absence of worry by not not not worrying about not not being born.
I do admit, I am sometimes not worried about not not worrying about not being born.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Odd. I faced death recently in the form of a flu and a diminished immune response and never once hoped for an afterlife. Mostly because the billions of years I didn't exist before living never bothered me, so I don't much see why billions of years of not existing afterward would bother me.
Do theists worry they've chosen the wrong god to belive in on their death bed? Surely there must be a moment when a Christian says "Oh my, what if the Muslims are right?!" or "Goodness, those Buddhists and thier karmic wheel might just be it!"
BTW, "Borne" is to be carried or supported, ITYM "Born"
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
There's absolutely nothing to fear about ceasing to exist. I think it's kinda ironic that we'd only need to be worried if your grand delusions about "salvation" were true. Christianity creates the problem (afterlife and hell) then sells you the cure (jesus and heaven). It's a petty scam.
Which atheists are these? I am much less concerned about death now than I was as a theist. The only part I fear is the actual dying, which is often times uncomfortable. And, yes, I have been faced with my own mortality since becoming an atheist, and I have sat at the bedside of several family and friends, and watched them die.
As a theist friend told me recently, man is the most tragic beast, being able to forsee our own deaths and knowing that, in the end, there is nothing we can do about it. It is a very powerful motivator for fabricating ideas about life after death.
All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
Were you in intensive care? Are you over 60?
I expected to hear all kinds of false bravado. It is a lot like the naive soldier who yearns for battle, and then shits his pants when he faces the real deal. Big talk. It is easy to talk abstractly about death and how much you "understand", all while conveniently ignoring what you don't understand. It is easy to feel confident when you have an internet full of "yes man" all patting each other on the back. You can always go to the atheist book reports for strength when you are confounded by questions. You can always join with the minions pretending to have a deep understanding of how this whole thing works.
It must be absolutely terrifying for you to consider that there isn't anything after you die.
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Were you in intensive care? Are you over 60?
Be kind to the elderly now, there are a few of us nearing retirement here.
This little guy looks like he is jumping rope. How many years have gone since you last jumped rope?