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Atheists and their doubts
Posted on: May 13, 2009 - 9:25am
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Atheists and their doubts
When faced with their own mortality atheists doubt the strength of their own convictions. When it comes time for "lights out" the whole idea of death being equivalent to being not borne gets a worrisome. Why? Because there was no time before not being borne when we thought about not being borne.
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BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Another example of your inadequate reasoning skills - not seeing the relevance of very closely related topics to put your arguments in perspective and even help answer some of your questions is a serious deficiency.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Ahh okay. Thanks for clearing that up.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
What's an athiest book report? Am I the only one wondering about this?
I assume that he thinks that we treat books written by atheists like he treats his scripture.
All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
He certainly can't mean reading and drawing one's own conclusion. I don't think I've met a Christian that does that with scripture.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Zing!
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
<rimshot>
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
The greatest fear is fear of the unknown. The greatest unknown is death. It makes perfect sense that people would fear it, so much so that they would invent myths to comfort themselves, that death wouldn't be the end, that it might even be salvation.
Yes, I have doubts. Of course I have doubts.
You're just here to be an asshole, aren't you? You know what, fuck you!
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
...This is absurd. It's like saying, "Well, I've never met a person who has experienced massive head trauma who was able to correctly deduce any given mathematical equation, therefore math is wrong,"
Are you trying to elevate being near death or in imminent danger as some sort of 'pure' state where our 'real' selves suddenly pop out from our mortal shells? Because that's just plain false. A person near death or in a situation where their life is jeopardized is (unless they have been conditioned to deal with those circumstances) emotionally and mentally compromised; they're at their weakest state for making sound logical/philosophical deductions.
So, yes. No doubt that people might think all sorts of crazy things after they've eaten their very last Oh Henry! bar. This does not somehow lend any veracity to said crazy things.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Yeah. 'False bravado'.
Just like the 'false bravado' Pat Tillman had, before his Christian 'buddies' shot him in the back and murdered him in cold blood, right?
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
What makes you so sure these will be the last things on yor mind? Or are saying you think this will be the case?
I suppose they could rationalize their position knowing their doubt is common. That somehow makes it easier to push out of your mind. In the end this is how we handle doubt. We don't think about it, or we rationalize it. We surround ourselves with like minded people who will all confirm our rationalizations.
Comes from not having the fear of death that seems to rule your life.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Actually I was going to respond, but you will notice these threads can be busy ones for atheists. I was going to say to your "wall of text", you over complicated things. It is pretty simple in the end.
I've had two cases where I was faced with eminent death: in one case, I was shot at. In another, I was in a massive car accident. In both cases, I thought I would likely die during the event. In neither case did I think about god. Not once. There were an infinite number of things that I didn't think about, and all of them would've been thought before I thought of god. In the case of being shot at, I thought about my daughter, who was in a backpack on my back, so I turned so my body was between the shooters and her. In the case of the accident, I kept marvelling at how the car kept getting smaller as it rolled over several times, and wondered if I'd be crushed to death or if my neck would snap, and hoped it would be my neck. (I hate pain.) As a side note: seatbelts save lives.
So I am quite sure I will not worry about my lack of belief in god if I go suddenly, no more than I worry about my lack of belief in the Jolly Green Giant (though he does grow same pretty good green beans).
In case of a lingering death, I may or may not concern myself with my lack of belief in god. Probably not, as I don't concern myself right now, and I know I'm dieing. But you never know, as the time gets closer.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
The analogy is brave talk before reality. Does not matter how much you think you know about the reality. The reality is beyond what you were prepared for.
These are the texts (sometimes called essays) put together all over the internet by atheists to proclaim their deep knowledge. They are often fancied as some coup de grace to a theist position.
It is good to see honesty.
Don't kid yourself. I don't. The theist position regarding doubt I'm very sure has been talked about extensively by every atheist on this forum. Now judging from the reaction this thread has had I get the feeling that atheists don't ask these same questions of themselves to much - at least not in public. Now maybe JillSwift really did want to honestly know what I thought about atheist doubt. I doubt it, but just in case I responded to JillSwift's other comment regarding universal doubt.
That said, I still ask: "So what"? (Why you edited that out of the quote, I can't say. I find it odd, though.)
What is the point of your OP? All it looks like is a stroke with a very broad brush as an assertion and one incredibly weak stab at supporting that assertion. In itself, it makes no point.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Yes and the only reason you can say that's just brave talk is because you do know (or can imagine) that a battlefield can be very scary. You do NOT know at all what, if anything, awaits you after death and thats why the analogy fails. You just chose to assume it'll be "beyond what you were prepared for".
Likewise, I could say dying is just like getting a vaccine as a child. At first you're scared of the needle but after its over you realize it didn't really hurt and you think it was silly to be afraid of it. With zero data about what really happens after death, that analogy is just as (in)valid.
To make another, 'NO ATHEISTS IN FOXHOLES WITH US CHRISTIANS!@!!' argument.
Of course, it's tough to find atheists in said foxholes when said Christians just shoot them in the back once they're there, isn't it?
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
You did not say in your initial response, that I quoted, that you were not interested in discussing theist doubt because you felt it had already "been talked about extensively", you said you did not "understand the relevancy" to this discussion. Different point.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Unprecedented!
Seriously, OC, if you're just going to bob and weave, get out of the ring.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Well, now you know what honesty looks like. Care to show some yourself?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Uhhm, no. I have no doubts about the strength of my conviction. Death does not scare me at all, in fact, I look at it as almost a beautiful thing - while you feel no pleasure, you feel no pain, you see no light, you see no dark, there is no good, there is no bad. Perfect neutrality that comes after a life filled with chaos.
On the other hand, the lies spread by the various religions of the world are an attempt to stamp out the truth about death. People are afraid of death because it's an unfathomable change from everything we know - and religion has capitalized on that.
Ah, so he was talking about himself. Okay, I get it now. Still, he could have been a bit more clear about that.
Yeah, not caring does make more sense than being afraid, imo.
I've heard that one before. Is it just me, or does that make no sense at all ?
I thought I made it quite clear that I make no claims to know anything at all about the "reality" after death.
Neither should you.
But you're going to anyway, aren't you ?
Yup, here it comes...
Now how could you possibly know that ? I could be very well prepared indeed. There is simply no way for anyone to know for sure.
I personally have technically died, and was resuscitated, and I was clinically dead for about 3 to 4 minutes according to the doctors, however having faced that, I personally am not afraid of death, I am afraid of having a long and painful process of dying, but that's not the same as being afraid of death. In my personal experience, it is not usually the unbelievers that are afraid but the believers that are. In my years of having seen people die (family members, friends, friend's family members and a few strangers in hospitals and on the combat field) I must say that unbelievers and buddhists died usually more peacefully or more accepting than those of the christian and jewish faith (never seen a muslim die or a hindu or those of other beliefs) The jewish and christians were more willing to have all the procedures done to prolong life, while the buddhist and the atheists/unbelievers had no problem accepting death as a natural process of life and simply once dead that was it, basically a DNR, my father himself an atheist, has stated that under no circumstances is he to be put on a machine to prolong his life, it is not his desire to live his last days like that.
Now OrdinaryClay, how can you back up your claims?
Oh as well there has been research into this, this is one of the latests ones http://www.acperesearch.net/apr09.html which shows that people suffering from cancer that held relgious views had a higher percentage of wanting life prolonging procedures, here is another one regarding physicians and their views of death http://www.tau.ac.il/socialwork/adler/docs/Articles/1_6.pdf which also states that the non religious physcians have less fears about dying/death. There are lots of studies regarding this, I would like to know how you came to your conclusion?
Don't you mean that their was no time before being born when we thought about not being born. The time in which I was being born is very limited, but as far I can tell the time in which I am not being born stretches as far as time has meaning. Basically you statement specifies a time before time which is in itself a contradiction.
That said in regards to the rest of you statement I have no real fear of dying.
Don't come in here with your 'facts' and your 'studies' and your 'science'. That stuff is all part of the atheistic materialism naturalist worldview, which is chortlingly false because it does not answer the question of 'ultimate reality', remember?
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
So, you're saying people are afraid of death? WOW! AMAZING DISCOVERY!!
Maybe you're trying to say that only atheists have that? yea right......
As for me personally, I tend to get really scared when I start thinking about death, so I try not to think about it. Maybe it has something to do with the fact I'm only 15,
''Black Holes result from God dividing the universe by zero.''
Seems you are arguing from ignorance and denial, trying to support yet another one of your Christian misconceptions.
Ok, just keep denying, ignoring, twisting, ridiculing any evidence we present that shows up just how disconnected from the Truth you really are...
What happened, OrdinaryClay, did a big bad atheist frighten you when you were a child??
Has your faith failed to bring you the comfort you seek, so you have to prove that atheists have it even worse??
Those outbursts of bitterness about atheists make me wonder...
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I have been in situations where the prospect of death was very real. So my memories of my reactions and thoughts at the time, ie, introspection, is about as certain as one can get as to my reactions to the situation, short of having a next generation fMRI machine strapped to my head at the time. Comparing my thoughts to those of others, via discussions, is more than adequate to confirm that my reactions are not unique.
Your comment about dying alone, while true, is totally and typically irrelevant.
Are you really so determined to convince us, by example, just how thoughtless and irrational Theists can be??
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Cut him a little slack - Dying scares him so much that he thinks we all must share his fear.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
People were and are able to do awful things just to avoid death, let's say, let others be betrayed, tortured, killed, and so on. I guess this is because of a fear of death. So, if the atheists seems to have so little of the fear of death, can they also choose their death, if a price of their life would be too high for others? If yes, was it also observed historically? Or is it only a relatively recent phenomenon, the death-fearless atheists? I'd wonder what modern influence caused this.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
To be perfectly honest, I fully expect to have doubts. I think it is only natural to question what you have done in your life. Sure some may have no doubts, but I do not think I will be one of them. As I said it is only natural to questions what you have done in your life and bassed on the finallity of death that may be enough to cause me to doubt (note, doubt doesn't = convert)
Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.
You didn't read the rest of the thread. It was stated, numerous times, that it's not that atheists don't fear death, it's that that fear doesn't translate into bedside conversions to theism. So your question's really a non-sequitur.
Ahem..
Except... not...
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/meanwhile-science-disproves-another-religious-myth/
So... um... it appears that theists are more afraid of dying than atheists. Go figure.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Altruistic death? I'd have no problem doing that. I don't know about atheists doing such in history.
As for influences, I think it's more of an individual thing. A run in with cancer and multiple surgeries for various reasons left me with a lack of concern about my own demise.
I'm not looking to rush things, but I have no fear of shuffling off this mortal coil.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Wow, you have a lot of anecdotal evidence.
A value for the sanctity of life was not accounted for. This correlation does not really apply to this subject.
"Our findings should not be misinterpreted as denying the experience of many patients who find peaceful acceptance of death and pursue comfort-centered care because of their religious faith. Although religious coping is a theoretically appealing measure of functional religiousness, we cannot say that positive religious coping rather than other religious factors (e.g., religiously based morals) completely accounts for the associations observed. [p. 1146] "
The thread was not about present fear. It is about doubt at the moment of death. The thread has never been about bravery. On the contrary, it is a given we develop communities to bolster our bravery. It is a given we all have fear. Fear may actually be an indicator of less doubt about ones beliefs.
"... death in a predominantly Christian sample of patients with advanced cancer. ..."
Or maybe Christians value life more, or maybe Christians value their time with their family more, or maybe Christians value their time with their fellow human beings more.
Perpetuating an opinion in a blog does not make the opinion truer.
Interesting. Being afraid of a God makes you more sure he exists?
As for doubt - at the moment of death I will have no doubt at all that I'm dying. I still won't be concerned about anything in the past because it will be too late for me to change anything.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Again, thanks for your honesty, but if you admit that you may have doubts why do you seem to rule out conversion?
He's not - he's saying that having doubts won't necessarily trigger a conversion to your God. Conversion is not based so much on doubt as fear.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Atheism is usually (though not only) founded by skeptical thinking, which is really just doubt + rational thought. So I'd hope every atheist would be willing to constantly re-examine their position on reality throughout his/her life. Unless your apologist make a breakthrough, however, I doubt the re-examinations will lead to many conversions.
One would think that a non-afterlife atheist would value life more than a Christian ... seeing that this particular atheist views this life as his one and only shot. You'd think Christians would all be rushing up to heaven eh? When you are on a deathbed with a terminal illness that you've known about for quite some time... you normally try have your affairs in order. You say your goodbyes and you prepare for your demise. I don't see how your explanations of a theist valuing life and family more come into play. I would value my life enough to allow for my end with some dignity. I would value my family enough to not have them suffer for that many more days waiting for the phone to ring that I've passed. Don't try to make selfish acts appear noble.
You insult everyone with your arrogance, though it is expected.
At least you tried.
Hugz
You are basing your vision of Christians based on your atheist view of the world. Why would someone want to rush to eternity when they have work to do while mortal. There will be plenty of time to enjoy eternity.
You seem to have very different experiences then I. My time with my family has never been suffering.