Tolstoy was right
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When one is in the military, one may engage in acts which are quite contrary to Jesus' words.
When Jesus says, "do good to those who hate you," how can one kill someone else and consider it to be doing them any good?
When Jesus says, "love your enemies," how can one love their enemy as they rip out their guts with a bayonet?
Some people who kill other people in their military occupation, really need to think about what they are doing.
These people who kill in the military make thousands of mothers childless, children fatherless, and countless untold numbers of grieving widows. There is nothing honorable about that. That is what these people are trained to do. Trained to kill. They bring pain, grief, and suffering to those caught in their wake, both the guilty and the innocent. And they grieve me as well.
In short, what I have to say is this. Jesus reached out to the fatherless and widows. The Bible says to defend the cause of the fatherless and the widow. The people in the military do not do that. They only compound the problem, by creating more fatherless children and more widows. These people who kill in the military and claim to follow Christ merely make more work for the following Christians who are out there reaching out to the families of all the insurgents and "terrorists" and innocent bystanders that the other "Christians" have killed.
To be Christian means to be Christ-like. There is nothing Christ-like about taking another's life just to save your own. Is their life worth less than the life of your family? Are they not just as loved by God as you? Is their life worth less than your country? Is their life worth less than your freedom?
No. God loves us, all of us. God forgave us when we deserved death. He took away the punishment for our transgressions. If we do not forgive our own transgressors in the same way, how then can we represent God's love to the world?
The Bible says to imitate the life of Christ here on earth, and Christ never killed those who threatened His safety and the safety of His disciples. They ended up dead too.
But what did they say? "To live is Christ and to die is gain." Death is gain, my friend.
In the words of the great Christian Leo Tolstoy, who was a lieutenant in the Russian army at one time...
"We must say that by whatever name people may call murder - murder always remains murder and a criminal and shameful thing.
With regard to those who voluntarily choose a military career, I would propose to state clearly and definitely that not withstanding all the pomp, glitter, and general approval with which it is surrounded, it is a criminal and shameful activity; and that the higher the position a man holds in the military profession the more criminal and shameful his occupation."
And a truly shameful occupation it is. Worthy to be rebuked and admonished.
Unless you wish to argue that you can show love to an enemy by blowing their head off, then you cannot defend the killing of others. Jesus did not make an exception to the command, "Love your enemy."
And neither did Paul. Let's look at what he said, immediately after Romans 13:1-7
"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13:8-10
You see? Love is the fulfilling of the law. Jesus established that we are to love our neighbor, and our enemies are our neighbors too, as evidenced when he said, "Love your enemy, do good to those who hate you."
If "love worketh no ill to his neighbor," then love certainly cannot kill his neighbor (aka enemy). Hitler's actions worked ill to his neighbors. Killing other people is working ill to them. Therefore it is against God's law, for "love is the fulfilling of the law." You cannot kill somone out of love. Therefore it does not fulfill the law. For "Love is the fulfilling of the law."
Another thing. Did you know that God is "kind unto the evil and the unthankful?" We are commanded to be just like Him.
"But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." Luke 6:35
"Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." Luke 6:36
We are supposed to forgive the trespasses of others, every time, up to 77 times and beyond.
"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 14:15
If we do not forgive others, God will not forgive us. And we all have sinned. The wages of sin is death. When God forgives us, he takes away our punishment of eternal death. So too are we to forgive others, and take away their punishment that they so justly deserve, so that they will see the mercy of God. For we are to be as merciful as God is merciful.
"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Matthew 18:21-22
If we bomb and shoot and stab after only one trespass against us, instead of forgiving, how then shall we be able to forgive seventy-seven times? Out transgressor will be dead after the first trespass, and we will not have shown forgiveness at all!
"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Matthew 25:40
I think we can all agree that terrorists, rapists, and murderers are among the "least of these" that Jesus speaks of.
They are certainly not among "the greatest of these," now are they?
After all, they are in jail, and need to be visited. When we show love to these people, we are showing love to Christ. If we condemn these people, we are condemning Christ. If we kill these people, we are killing Christ!
"Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." matthew 25:45
If we do not show love to these people, we do not show love to Christ. They are the "least of these," and we must show love to them, out of love for Christ.
If you or any other Christian does not heed these clear commands that Jesus gave, you will have disobeyed Him. Only those that love Him will obey these commands.
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:5
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While, I will be the first to say that this a No True Scotsman, I would also point out that this is pretty much what I was talking about when I said the the Bible could justify a lot of things and this is precisly why you can't say that one person is doing things because of Christianity, while saying that the people who don't are doing it despite Christianity. *ahem*
Christianity was not always like this, Cpt_pineapple. Christians did not always encourage war and hate.
The early Christians chose to love their enemies, as Christ commanded them to do.
The early Christian community understood Jesus’ commands to prohibit the bearing of arms. Christians refused to join the military, even though the Roman army of the period was as much a police force as a conquering army. Those who converted to Christianity while in military service were instructed to refrain from killing, to pray for forgiveness for past acts of violence, and to seek release from their military obligations. A striking example of the pervasiveness of pacifism in the early church is the fact that Tertullian and Origen—church fathers who stood at opposite poles regarding the relation of faith to philosophical reasoning—each wrote a tract supporting Christians’ refusal to join the military.
It wasn't until St. Augustine came around with his "Just War Theory" that many Christians changed their stance. This also happened to be the time when Christians got their first taste of political power, around the time when emperor Constantine converted to Christianity.
"We who formerly murdered one another now refrain from making war even upon our enemies." Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.176.
"I do not wish to be a king. I am not anxious to be rich. I decline military command". Tatian (c. 160, E), 2.69.
"These people [i.e. the Christians] formed their swords and war-lances into plowshares...so now they are unaccustomed to fighting. When they are struck, they offer also the other cheek." Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.512.
"Let our seals be either a dove, a fish, or a ship....We are not to draw an outline of ... a sword or a bow, since we follow peace." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.286.
"The Christian does no harm even to his enemy." Tertullian
"Is it lawful to make an occupation of the sword when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword will perish by the sword? Will the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law?" Tertullian
"So the more anyone excels in godliness, the more effective the help is that he renders to kings. This is a greater help than what is given by soldiers who go forth to fight and kill as many of the enemy as they can." Origen
"Our prayers defeat all demons who stir up war. . . Accordingly, in this way, we are much more helpful to the kings than those who go into the field to fight for them." Origen
"And murder - which is admitted to be a crime in the case of an individual - is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not because they are guiltless- but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale!" Cyprian
"Why would [the just man] carry on war and mix himself with the passions of others when his mind is engaged in perpetual peace with men?" Lactantius
"A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate who wears the purple must resign or be rejected. If an applicant or a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected." recorded by Hyppolytus.
The rest is preaching and irrelevent to the point you warp the bible into making.
What Would Kharn Do?
.... im sure thats productive *snicker*
Yeah, it is. Christian Peacemaker Teams are out there right now providing food to the hungry and shelter for those whose homes have been bombed to nothingness.
Warp the Bible?
Christians do not fight with carnal weapons, they do not wrestle with flesh and blood.
For we are Christians, disciples of Christ, and our weapons are not carnal...
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled." 2 Corithians 10:3-6
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
We do not fight against flesh and blood:
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12
Oh ho ho, i've seen the good they do first hand in afghanistan, i've seen your little convoy's treck into the mountains, attempting to console and convert all those touched by hardship... i've also seen some of their corpses mailed back home, after a kind man delivered them on a donkey cart
... again, warping... how easily do you think i can turn your quote, into a bible sponsored support for fascism? and violence unto those who think differently?
27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' "Exodus 32:27
See, we can both play this game... (i believe you are in "check" good sir)
Again, the bible is not gonna help you make your argument, it only hinders it
What Would Kharn Do?
I got to the part about the Israelites. I have something to say about that.
First off, God physically commanded people to fight wars in the Old Testament. He no longer commands people to fight wars. The words "Old Testament" literally means "Old Covenant." Look it up in the dictionary for proof. "Testament" is synonymous with "Covenant."
Although God (Jesus) does remain the "same yesterday, today, and forever," Hebrews 13:8, His commands to His people have changed over time.
What many choose to cite in order to justify war are the Jewish wars of the Old Testament . What is wrong with this approach is that the ancient Israelites were men living under the Old Covenant.
Under this Old Covenant, the Jews were permitted to own slaves, kill women and children, and all sorts of terrible atrocities to mankind. But God gave them permission to do so, and He physically spoke to them on many occassions.
Under the New Covenant, however, the rules have changed, and the Old Covenant has been made obsolete.
"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. " Hebrews 8:6
The New Covenant is Better Than the Old
"7For if the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one. 8But God found something wrong with his people when he said,
“Look! The days are coming, declares the Lord,when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors at the timewhen I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. Because they did not remain loyal to my covenant,I ignored them, declares the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11Never again will everyone teach his neighbor
or his brother by saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because all of them will know me,
from the least important to the most important.
12For I will be merciful regarding their wrong deeds,
and I will never again remember their sins. ”
13In speaking of a “new” covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. "Hebrews 8:7-13
In the King James version,it says the Old Covenant has aged and "vanished away. "
The Old Testament doctrine has been made obsolete,including the "eye for an eye” doctrine..
“You have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say to you, that ye resist not evil.” Matthew 5:38-39
Don't confuse the ancient Jews with Christians.The Jews were not Christians, thus they followed the Old Covenant. Jesus was not even born yet, therefore the Jews could not possibly be Christians.
That is what the "Old Testament" means, "Old Covenant. "
Christians follow the "New Testament", which means "New Covenant. " You follow the New Covenant.
Don't get me wrong though. In the New Covenant, Jesus still upheld the Ten Commandments, on numerous occassions. But He said the greatest commandment was to love God, and to love your neighbor. The terrorists are our neighbors too, as evidenced when Jesus said "Love your enemy. "
Like you said, "check."
Far be it from me to show a god contradicting himself
and i played the game once, it was enough for my tastes, yet you still dont understand that if you wish to make an actual arguement, do no use the bible as your basis, thus far, all you have done is preach, something that is frowned upon here. The bible is proof of itself does not fly here, if it did, i would have wonderous tales from the Bloody Book of Khornate.
What Would Kharn Do?
Unlike Bush, who has lied about countless numbers of things, Moses and the Israelites all heard God at different times. God did very explicit things like writing on the wall for everyone to see, sending down plagues exactly as Moses said He would.
This is why there is such a huge difference between Bush and Moses.
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."Matthew 7:12
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Unless you would desire men to bomb your home and blow your brians out with a shotgun, you should not do it unto them. You should love as you would have others love you. You should show should mercy as you would have others show mercy to you. You should forgive others as you would have them forgive you.
There have been men and women in the military who are clearly not following the golden rule. Instead, they are "doing unto others" (bombing, shooting, stabbing) simply because they do not want the Iraqis to do the same to them. They don't want to be bombed or killed, therefore they are killing and bombing Iraqis because they or the ones they are defending are afraid of being bombed or killed themselves.
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -- man's enemies will be the members of his own household." Matthew 10:34-35
That's right. Jesus brought the word of God, the "sword of the spirit", and that caused much division between households. It even caused nonchristian sons and daughters to put their Christian mothers and fathers to death!
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" Ephesians 6:17
"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!" Luke 12:49
That's right. Jesus came to bring the "fire of the Holy Spirit" on the earth, and it was kindled among His disciples...
"And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:3-4
There were some who wished Jesus would bring physical fire down on the earth, but Jesus rebuked them. For he "came not to destroy men's lives, but to save them."
"And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village." Luke 9:51-56
Obviously the fire He came to bring was not physical fire. He rebuked His disciples for suggesting such a thing.
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters -- yes, even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26
Indeed. And why did he say this? To hate one's own parents?
"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." Matthew 10:37
Anyone who loves his father or mother so much that he would disobey Jesus' command to "love your enemy" is not worthy of Jesus. So, if they decide to kill their enemy out of love for their father or mother, they are disobeying Jesus' command.
By choosing to not love their enemies, thereby disobeying Jesus, they have demonstrated that they do not love Jesus more than their father or mother.
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15
Only those who really love Jesus will follow His commands like "love your enemy." And they certainly love Jesus more than their father or mother.
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate...even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26
And why did He say this? To hate one's own life?
"Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." Luke 17:33
Truly, if anyone seeks to save his life (by killing a terrorist who threatens his life), they will lose it. But those that will lose their lives, as did Jesus' disciples, will preserve their eternal life.
Why do some Christians seek to save their lives? Don't they know they will lose it?
i refuse to repeat myself a third time, have fun with whoever decides to end this topic
Jesus also said this...Luke 19:27 reads:
"But those enemies who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me."
( Yes, I am aware of the context of this passage, but what makes this parable especially noteworthy though is that the author of this parable supposedly has the unique status of also being the Judge of all humanity.... whose future role encompasses meting out an allegedly non-metaphorical penalty sometimes referred to as the second death. ....or is Hell a parable, too ? )
Wow! A politician who lied, you say? You should call a newspaper or other media outlet.
How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais
Of course Jesus used that parable. He will be the Judge of all Humanity. In the mean time you have the choice to accept Him and follow His commands or not.
There will be consequences if you do not accept Him. I think that is the main idea of the parable.
Of course it is ! The generous offer set before me is basically this: Worship me or I'll burn you alive.
Well, beefy here's a thought experiment for you to consider, if I approached you with a similar offer and stated:
"beefy, if you do not submit to my authority and bow down and worship me I will take this five gallon can of diesel fuel, pour it over your body and light you on fire."
What would you think ? would you be okay with that ? Would you think I was worthy of your adoration ?
I don't accept him. Fuck the imaginary consequences.
How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais
Prozac, please consider another fuel source as diesel is considerably less flammable than gasoline.
How about a jolly good helping of napalm to Beefy's pre-scourged body? Not that I would ever advocate violence......
How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais
....well, anything to please the crowd
LOL!
Hello, beefy, welcome to the forum.
Why didn't God originally apply the rules of the New Testament?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Dude, don't you know anything ? .... in the Old Testament God was a practicing Jew but later on he converted to Christianity.
Why didn't God originally apply the rules of the New Testament?
I don't know. I don't know that anymore than why I don't know why God did not create us all with wings and laser-vision and spike boots attached to our skin.
Don't ask me. Ask God these kinds of questions. I don't know.
Why do expect me to be able to speak for God? I don't know what He thinks.
But I know what He did say in the (New Testament) New Covenant, and making war on other people, killing people, is not part of it at all.
He's not as responsive as you.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Fair enough. Let me speculate as to why God did not intially give us the New Covenant.
I see here in the Bible that Moses gave certain laws to the Israelites because the Israelites had hardened hearts. Jesus changed the Old Covenant divorce law into the New Covenant divorce Law because apperantly people no longer had hardened hearts.
"They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."Matthew 19:7-9
Jesus said it was no longer okay to divorce for any reason, only for unfaithfulness. Otherwise divorce is commiting adultery.
Now as to the reason the Israelites hearts were hardened, I do not know. I don't know if God created them like that, or, I don't know, they had been ENSLAVED by the Egyptians for that last 500 YEARS! That would harden anyone's heart, I think.
Ultimately, I think that the Old Covenant Law was written for those who had hardened hearts. I think Jesus gave us the New Covenant because now we have more compassionate hearts. Now when you say, "Stone him, stone him! The child has disobeyed his father!" most people would have the compassion not to stone the child just for the act of disobedience. But if you said that in the Old Testament times, people would be like, "Where, Where is he! There he is! Kill him!" Yeah, that's what they would do.
What do you think?
I don't buy it.
- God's justice shouldn't be dictated by the "hardness of people's hearts." Stoning someone for picking up sticks on Sunday is either always just or always unjust; it isn't affected by social zeitgeists.
- Furthermore, as this implies, if people are willing to stone each other when they're on the wrong path, then it follows that stoning each other is simply not the right thing to do. Yet, you're saying that God ordered the Israelites to stone each other for various actions that couldn't even be considered crimes in today's society. Ergo, God is ordering them to do the wrong thing? Or, perhaps, God's orders are always right, so stoning others is wrong unless conducted under God's orders?
- What happened to Israelites that didn't want to stone each other? Did God punish them? Or, did everyone want to stone each other?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare