Homosexuality is not a sin
Offline These are not my words... They were taken from a site http://media.www.hsuoracle.com/media...90-page4.shtml
Let me start this off with a quote from a famous lesbian, Lynn Lavner:
"There are 6 admonishments in the Bible concerning homosexual activity, and our enemies are always throwing them up to us - usually in a vicious way and very much out of context.
What they don't want us to remember is that there are 362 admonishments in the Bible concerning heterosexual activity. I don't mean to imply by this that God doesn't love straight people, only that they seem to require a great deal more supervision."
Remember this throughout this article.
I am going to attempt to keep this short and simple, so here we go.
Some claim that Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 clearly say that homosexual sex is an abomination. In fact, it merits death. Isn't it obvious that God hates homosexuality?
Yes, depending on which translation you are using, Leviticus does say, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female, it's an abomination."
However, a few points must be made about this statement:
a) It appears in Leviticus, which was given to preserve the distinctive characteristics of the religion and culture of Israel. However, as stated in Galatians 3:22-55, Christians are no longer bound by these Jewish laws. Even if you, for some reason, argue that these "laws" are still important, then you surely follow all of them, right?
It is interesting that people who use Leviticus against the Queer community forget the part that talks about religious sacrifices, making women sleep in tents outside during their period, the dietary restrictions placed on them and how to cleanse a leper, all of which appear in Leviticus.
The laws of Leviticus are completely obsolete for today's Christian; however, even if you do claim to live by the laws of Leviticus, it is not fair to pick and choose which laws you are going to live by, or condemn a people by, if you are not going to follow the others. You should not need any more convincing evidence than this; but if you do, be my guest.
b) The word that was in the original work, "to'ebah," which was translated into Greek as "bdglygma" actually means "ritual impurity" rather than abomination (or enormous sin). These passages in Leviticus can be translated to not mean homosexual sex generally, but only limiting homosexual sex in Pagan temples.
c) This passage does not denounce homosexual behavior as a whole, but just the specific act of anal sex. This was meant for the prevention of disease. It was ruled unclean because it was physically unclean; however, hygiene has made wonderful advances since that time.
d) These passages in Leviticus can be interpreted in many ways. I have seen it interpreted by scholars and priests to mean: "don't have sex with another man in your wife's bed;" "don't have sex with another man in the temple;" and "don't have sex with another man and pretend he is a woman," just to name a few.
I have never seen an interpretation in any Bible, or from any scholar, that specifically says to never have sex with a man.
Some claim the Bible simply does not support gay marriage. Chapter two of Genesis defines marriage as a holy union between a man and a woman. And later, in Matthew 19:4-5, Jesus himself reiterates the traits of a traditional marriage. How can you argue that anything other than celibacy is honorable for gay and lesbian people?
Yes, marriage is a holy union. However, in these passages, while Jesus reiterates (but does not require) the traditional marriage, he also provides an exception for eunuchs (castrated men - or otherwise impotent men, in today's terms), and allowed them to be married, saying that this law is given to those to whom it applies.
Because these eunuchs were born sexless, God made an exception for them because it was natural. The same applies to the Queer community today. Science has proven homosexuality is completely natural, so it seems God would allow for homosexual marriages.
In Matthew 19: 4-5, Jesus encourages a traditional path, but does not discourage alternatives, except in the case of divorce.
Jesus did stress purity of marriage, but not in regard to the sexes of the people within it. It can be seen that the reason that churches are against homosexual marriage is not because it is explicitly said by God, but because of a lack of instruction to specifically allow it.
In the time that the Bible was written it would have been impossible to foresee the future to be able to specifically allow or forbid homosexual marriage.
Some claim, in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, he lists homosexuals amongst the many sinners who will not inherit the kingdom of God. Doesn't that make God's position on this vice very clear?
If we look at the other types of people listed in this passage, we can understand what it is actually talking about. Law breakers, thieves, adulterers and drunks are specifically mentioned. The word "homosexual" was not found until the 1890s, so it would have been impossible for it to be in the original version.
What actually appears in the original is Paul condemning those who are "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind." In this context, the original Greek word, "malakos," is translated into effeminate, or soft, which, more than likely, refers to someone who lacks discipline or moral control.
In this passage, when Paul condemns "abusers of themselves with mankind," he is speaking of male prostitutes.
Then there are the people who claim that, even though science has proven that people don't choose there sexual orientation, the fact remains that homosexuality is unnatural. Romans 1:26-27 tells us that humans have a sinful nature, and therefore commit sins against God. Certain people are predisposed to be alcoholics and pedophiles, but that doesn't make their actions any less immoral. God tells us to "tear out your eye" if it makes you stumble. Why can't you just accept homosexuality as the part of your nature you must deny?
Because the Bible has gone through so many translations, and through the hands of many people (some being non-believers), it is not surprising that the meaning has become a little fuzzy in parts.
Homosexuality is normal. The phrase "para physin" appears in the original text for this verse. This term is often translated to mean "unnatural;" however, more accurate translation would be unconventional.
Proof for this can be found in 1 Corinthians 11:14 where Paul uses this phrase to refer to men with long hair (unconventional, not unnatural) and in Romans 11:24 where Paul uses this phrase to refer to the positive action God made to bring together the Jews and Gentiles.
All in all, homosexuality is obviously not a sin, unless you take passages from the Bible and add your own words or you just try really hard to interpret it that way. Let's just remember Galatians 5:14, where Paul stated, "…the whole Law is fulfilled in one Statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
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Offline The people who commit suicide could just convert to a different religion. It's not like Christianity is the only game in town.
Yes, let these potential suicide victims convert to a different religion. Hopefully a religion whose "holy book" was written by a competent diety who was familiar enough with the vagaries of human opinion.
The atheist George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950) was astute enough to perceive this serious flaw, even if God was not :
"No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says, he is always convinced that it says what he means."
Yes, imagine a god, who actually had the wisdom and foresight to anticipate such problems and then chose to employ...as only a perfect Being could do... such precise, unambiguous language and phrasing that the verses could not be manipulated by his followers to support completely contradictory viewpoints.
...as such, based upon the present Bible and its obvious "malleability" it seems that the Christian god's omniscience and creativity is highly over-rated.
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Offline Hate to address the obvious, but of course homosexuality isn't a sin. Sins don't exist.
By the way, someone needs a theist badge (beefy).
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
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Offline Sins don't exist.
Sins are imaginary.
Uhm..so evil doesn't exist? So immorality doesn't exist? So an atheist speaking about evil, or moral is speaking just of immaginery shit?
The wikipedia definition of sin: "Sin is a term used mainly in a religious context to describe an act that violates a moral rule, or the state of having committed such a violation."
What i find more often than not is this sort of stupidity that plagues atheist who have a foaming dislike for all things religion. You find atheist claiming guilt is a christian invention, who renounce the word "faith", who can't stand to say I have faith in my wife. The other day I was hearing Michael Shermer say we can't say we believe in evolution, because believe is not the correct word. It's comically absurd.
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Offline Thomathy wrote:Sins don't exist.
Jormungander wrote:Sins are imaginary.
Uhm..so evil doesn't exist? So immorality doesn't exist? So an atheist speaking about evil, or moral is speaking just of immaginery shit?
The wikipedia definition of sin: "Sin is a term used mainly in a religious context to describe an act that violates a moral rule, or the state of having committed such a violation."
What i find more often than not is this sort of stupidity that plagues atheist who have a foaming dislike for all things religion.
You find atheist claiming guilt is a christian invention,
who renounce the word "faith",
who can't stand to say I have faith in my wife.
The other day I was hearing Michael Shermer say we can't say we believe in evolution, because believe is not the correct word. It's comically absurd.
(Someone else needs a theist badge too: theTwelve.)
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
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Offline A Christian church that feeds and clothes its enemies in the third world countries that hate America!
I had always wondered whether the a government would consider this treasonous...
What Would Kharn Do?
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averagechristianjoe wrote:I don't particularly like religion. I would hardly discribe it as a foaming dislike. That sounds rabid. Particularly, in the case of sin, I find it ridiculous to acknowledge something which would require belief in a god. Clearly, if someone does not believe in a god, they cannot believe in sin. The concept is dependant on the existence of a moral law giver.What i find more often than not is this sort of stupidity that plagues atheist who have a foaming dislike for all things religion.
Morals are relative. What is good for one person isn't for the next person. There is no absolute morality. Sorry. "Sin" is all in your head. The same as Islam thinks women showing their faces is a "sin". The same as christians think buttsecks is a "sin". The same as Jews think doing things on sabbaths are a "sin".
It's all in their heads.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
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Offline Why anyone would trust a bunch of 2000 year old patriarchal, mysogynistic homophobes about the permissibility of homosexuality is beyond me.
In all honesty it is not beyond me, not that I think this is rational, but merely to the point that "gap" answers seem to be the species default.
I think religious heterosexuals should worry about their own innie and outie "gaps", and less about what two concenting adults do on their own time.
OH MY FUCKING GOD, SOMEONE IS DOING SOMETHING I FIND YUCKY, AND THEY MIGHT GIVE ME COOTIES OR MAGICALLY TURN ME GAY!
Wait a minute....I've shook hands with gays......SHIT! MY PENIS IS GOING TO FALL OFF!
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
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Offline Be careful, this is the "Kill 'em with Kindness" subforum.
Uhm..so evil doesn't exist? So immorality doesn't exist? So an atheist speaking about evil, or moral is speaking just of immaginery ****?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sin
1 a: an offense against religious or moral law b: an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible c: an often serious shortcoming
2 a: transgression of the law of God b: a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God
Sin, defined as an offense against religious law or God, doesn't exist.
Once we define what is bad, we can say that certain things are bad. For example, if one human hurts another human for no good reason, we can say that the first human has done something evil. Or, if a human constantly wants to hurt other humans for no good reason, we can say that person is evil. So, evil is just an adjective, a description of a person's character or an action with malicious intent. Evil exists, but it doesn't exist as any actual "thing;" it has no substance.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
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Offline Analyzed this bit from a literary perspective during a lunch conversation one time...
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female, it's an abomination."
The problem is, even with this translation there are two possible definitions for the word "as" even when we assume "lie" to mean "have sex with."
as: In the same way. You shall not lie with a male in the same way as with a female. Yet neither gender is stated as the preference. This is the typical "homosexuality is a sin" interpretation, but it doesn't actually forbid homosexuality. It forbids bisexuality, but only when sex is performed in the same way with both sexes. So I can have proper sex with a woman and anal/oral sex with a man, and God won't care. Also, "one lies with a female," could be referencing the correct way to have sex with a woman (for reproductive purposes), in which case this passage merely forbids a biological impossibility.
as: At the same time. You shall not lie with a male at the same time as with a female. This basically forbids mixed-gendered orgies. But interestingly, in an orgy with 1 man and 5 women, the man has done nothing wrong (by this quote) while the women have. Reverse for 1 woman and 5 men. Also, an all-male or all-female (and thus decidedly homosexual) orgy would be a-okay, and is actually preferred over heterosexual orgies.
Of course, when we look at what "lie" means, we could be forbidding multi-gendered cuddle time but feeling okay about any kind of sex performed while standing. I could also interpret this passage as requiring me to tell the truth whenever I am accompanied by both a man and a woman. Or perhaps I can tell lies when accompanied by men as long as I always tell the truth while accompanied by a woman. Or maybe I just have to tell my lies in a different way, or tell different lies, depending on which sex accompanies me.
Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html
I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.
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Offline Zaq, that was a funny interpretation. I liked it.
"I could also interpret this passage as requiring me to tell the truth whenever I am accompanied by both a man and a woman. Or perhaps I can tell lies when accompanied by men as long as I always tell the truth while accompanied by a woman. Or maybe I just have to tell my lies in a different way, or tell different lies, depending on which sex accompanies me."
LOL.
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When I began to read the Bible more and more, I came to an astonishing (but somewhat suspected) conclusion! That mainstream Christianity is teaching false doctrine!
Dude, you're seeing the trees and missing the forest. You and about 8324720803240270 other people have noticed this problem (thus the various sub-categories of Christians); why can't you just accept what's obvious?
The whole thing is false. Made up. Fake. A total sham.
It's not a problem specifically with your Church or Pastor - it's the religion itself. It's self-contradicting mumbo-jumbo. And no, i'm not buying the, 'Well this person found these scholars, and these scholars think that the Bible actually only has this sugar-coated variety of bigotry' line either. I mean, even if you were given the full benefit of the doubt, it's okay to be a bigot so long as the homosexuals you're marshalling hatred against are also Pagans?
It's been said multiple times already, but homosexuality doesn't have to find some degree of harmony with the Bible in order to not be a sin. It axiomatically isn't a sin because sin is an incoherent concept invented by barely literate desert nomads a couple thousand years ago. It's time to grow up and be a man, dude. whenever some fuck like your priest or a douchebag like me tries to tell you what your own sexuality is all about, tell them they can go ride a chainsaw and that your sexual habits are no more or less bizarre than anyone elses.
It's a planet full of weirdos. Welcome to the party.
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
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Offline ...
Clock, i've never met anyone who intrigued me and made me want to smash my head against a wall, quite like you...
What Would Kharn Do?
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Clock, i've never met anyone who intrigued me and made me want to smash my head against a wall, quite like you...
I do what I can.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
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Offline What I don't get is why people give a flying f*** what the Bible says about homosexuality.
People don't change, attitudes do over time. Who knows, maybe one day being heterosexual will be taboo.
Until then, gay people need to put on a good show, fight for equal rights before the law, and society will catch up later - that's the way it's been with most things.
To bring up nature vs. nurture... I'd concede that maybe there are genetic dispositions to homosexuality or some "chemical imbalance", but until I see proof I'm going to consider it bollux and conclude that it is a choice.
Now, when I conclude that it is a choice, people are going to jump down my throat and automatically assume that I'm anti-gay or some crap. That's not the case in fact. My point is, just because it (in my opinion) is a choice, does not make it any less valid. If the whole "nature" aspect is helping you sleep at night, that's pathetic. Find some inner peace with yourself. You're worth just as much as any other person in the world so chill. I forget who said it but the quote goes like this, "Be the change you wish to see in the world."
And that's my 2 cents for now.
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Offline It's a choice for seagulls to be lesbian~
And dogs, and cats, and monkeys, rabbits, dolphins.....
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
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Offline To bring up nature vs. nurture... I'd concede that maybe there are genetic dispositions to homosexuality or some "chemical imbalance", but until I see proof I'm going to consider it bollux and conclude that it is a choice.Now, when I conclude that it is a choice, people are going to jump down my throat and automatically assume that I'm anti-gay or some crap. That's not the case in fact. My point is, just because it (in my opinion) is a choice, does not make it any less valid. If the whole "nature" aspect is helping you sleep at night, that's pathetic. Find some inner peace with yourself. You're worth just as much as any other person in the world so chill. I forget who said it but the quote goes like this, "Be the change you wish to see in the world."
And that's my 2 cents for now.
Don't be daft. I don't think that anyone finds 'peace' with themselves merely due to the belief that their behaviour is natural (and never mind that their behaviour can't be anything but natural). It's just so damned annoying to read people maintain that others' sexuality is a choice, especially when their reasoning for the conclusion is based on the same logic as a god-of-the-gaps argument. Just because it's not genetically caused (which is really stupid to believe) or caused by something else doesn't mean that the default is 'it's a choice'. The default, when you don't know something, is that you do not know! Would you like to justify choice as an explanation without invoking gap-logic? Don't bother, it's a bad explanation that has been ruled out because it doesn't jive with reality; you know, like those studies done on sexuality? (Science is amazing, right?)
I'm only coming down hard on you because that bad logic needs to be exposed. Ttruly, fuck what the bible has to say about homosexuality, but you don't get a free pass to say stupid shit. If you don't know what causes homosexuality, you don't conclude that it's a choice, you conclude that you don't know. How about you wait for proof with the rest of us and rule out those bad explanations along the way -explanations like choice.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
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Oh what a sound argument you make! Player please. You're so blinded by your anger that you lash out against people who come to a rational conclusion. It may not be perfect, but your assumption that acceptable arguments are absolutely concrete is baseless. We get to a point where there is not sufficent information and must chose what is most convenient to our view of the world.
To me, it has been a choice. So don't be so quick to judge my conclusions. Does that mean "Lets change all the gay people to being straight"? NO. Because that's retarded.
Also, you're working on a purely aesthetic notion of attraction. 
Another flaw of your rant is your vague reference to studies done on sexuality. Hello, cite that shit. Also, I seriously doubt that you have seen every study that ever existed. Science has a lot of uncertainty and it is hard to find nonspurious correlation between biological factors and social results.
From sociology (which is a field of science I would highly recommend you study), we see that there are cases that would suggest a natural influence on sexual identity. I'm thinking of Intersex cases in children. But there are strong indicators of an overwhelming affect of socialization to the development of children. This is when our society pushes on us gender roles, and based on our individual experiences with this forced socialization, the results unsurprising vary. Each individual rejects or accepts such roles of society, or chose to go against it and do their own thing.
I question why I'm even bothering to respond, honestly. I don't care about changing your mind. From my reading of other posts by people, I would say people are where they're going to be. My goal is to put my opinion out there and broaden the scope of the discussion. If you don't like it then stick your fingers in your ears and pretend everyone agrees with you so you can live in your own little happy place until you calm down. 
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To me, it has been a choice. So don't be so quick to judge my conclusions. Does that mean "Lets change all the gay people to being straight"? NO. Because that's retarded.
Also, you're working on a purely aesthetic notion of attraction.
Another flaw of your rant is your vague reference to studies done on sexuality. Hello, cite that shit. Also, I seriously doubt that you have seen every study that ever existed. Science has a lot of uncertainty and it is hard to find nonspurious correlation between biological factors and social results.
From sociology (which is a field of science I would highly recommend you study), we see that there are cases that would suggest a natural influence on sexual identity. I'm thinking of Intersex cases in children. But there are strong indicators of an overwhelming affect of socialization to the development of children. This is when our society pushes on us gender roles, and based on our individual experiences with this forced socialization, the results unsurprising vary. Each individual rejects or accepts such roles of society, or chose to go against it and do their own thing.
I question why I'm even bothering to respond, honestly. I don't care about changing your mind. From my reading of other posts by people, I would say people are where they're going to be. My goal is to put my opinion out there and broaden the scope of the discussion. If you don't like it then stick your fingers in your ears and pretend everyone agrees with you so you can live in your own little happy place until you calm down.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
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It comes with a free straightjacket and shiny buckles.
Do I believe homosexuality is a sin ?
..according to Judeo-Christian tradition ?
Yes, affirmative, most assuredly.
Also, the article you referenced chose not to quote the last part of Leviticus 20:13 where it stated the penalty for homosexual behavior is death . "..their blood be on their own head" etc.
I mean really, does executing someone seem like a sign of disapproval to you ?...it does to me.
The ancient Hebrews killed their own children if they were simply considered "rebellious"; they even killed people for behavior as benign as "picking up sticks" because it violated their prohibition against working on the Sabbath. Do the people whose religious traditions you are referring to seem like a very tolerant people to you ?
Aside from a minority of religious dissenters, why does the condemnation against homosexuality seem to be a prevailing interpretation among the three Abrahamic religions ? No matter how misguided the viewpoint, an almost universal consensus of *opinion ( *homosexuality is sinful ) goes a long way in indicating what the original meaning was considered to be, more politically correct opinions notwithstanding.
The premise that you are suggesting makes as much sense to me as suggesting that members of the Ku Klux Klan aren't really racist bigots ( they really only object to white people who have tanned skin. )
I'm an atheist ( a former protestant, fundamenmtalist Christian ) who has gay friends of both genders and I definitely don't view homosexuality as a "sin" but if you try and tell me that the religious traditions that you refer to are not homophobic then I would have to infer that you have a habit of falling victim to you own wishful thinking.
ps, I am not trying to ridicule your perception of tolerance; it's simply that the condemnation by Yahweh / Allah / God for those who practiced homosexuality ( sodomites ) is so blatantly obvious that to assert otherwise just boggles the mind.
Cheers.
Why anyone would trust a bunch of 2000 year old patriarchal, mysogynistic homophobes about the permissibility of homosexuality is beyond me.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
The word "homosexual" was not even invented until the 1800s. There was no word for "Homosexual" in either the Hebrew or Greek language. Therefore, the word "homosexual" was never in the Bible until some misguided translators put it there.
The homosexuals acts supposedly condemned by the Bible are about pedophilic relations between old men and young slave boys, and also to the practice of homosexual behaviors in pagan idol worship.
It's important to research the culture of that time to know what the word translated "homosexual" really meant.
just because the word "Douche" didnt exist 2000years ago, doesnt mean you couldnt be one back then...
What Would Kharn Do?
Did they have a Hebrew word for adultery ? Even if they didn't, I assume that they could identify that behavior as well...
( same punishment, too. Death. )
Um.....'Sodomite'?
How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais
As far a I know, a sodomite refers to one who lives in Sodom. Simple as that. Just like a Cannanite is one who lives in Canaan. Has nothing to do with homosexulity in the slighest. Sodom was killed for all the wicked people in it, not for homosexuality.
And yes, there is a word for adultery, I do believe. Do you want me to look it up for you or something?
Like I said, the word currently translated as "homosexual" actually refers to slave-owning pedophiles and pagan idol ritual worship.'
If you want to prove my assertion wrong, I suggest you do a little research on the original Greek and Hebrew scriptures.
What would be even more telling about your implied obvious conclusions would be to allow you to engage in a discourse with a fellow Christian of the Evangelical bent and watch you both argue as to who has the correct interpretation. Street brawls are always fun to watch.
Why don't you go convince the rest of your "flock" then?
Gay marriage bans aren't really my idea of enjoyment.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
Hello. The link doesn't work. "File not found."
I think the Bible does condemn homosexuality, so I'll type some responses.
I found three unambiguous quotes. They specifically refer to a man being a with man instead of "sodomy" or "homosexuality." I do not think that they are out of context. I have read Leviticus and most of Romans.
The Bible simply restricts sexual intercourse in general. Obviously, the Bible wouldn't need to set up complicated parameters for homosexual activity if it was completely forbidden. Thus, the fact that there are more verses limiting heterosexual activity than homosexual activity isn't evidence for anything, except, that these people were sexually repressed morality control freaks.
That doesn't solve the moral issue. Christians still have to address why God had these laws at one time, even if not in the present.
Also, what about the verses in the New Testament condemning homosexuality?
For example: "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:26-28
That sounds like pure speculation. These verses don't say anything about Pagan temples. My NIV just says, ""Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." Leviticus 18:22 and "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Leviticus 20:13
Again, just biased interpretation.
Besides, if this was what the writers of the Bible meant, then why does it specifically denounce homosexual activity instead of just discouraging sex in general? Is homosexual activity more unclean?
But it can't be interpreted to mean that homosexuality is wrong?
Can't have a cake and eat it too.
Great, but these verses don't say anything about wives or beds.
Nope, doesn't say anything about temples.
Doesn't say that either.
There are many scholars that use this interpretation, especially non-theists, so the people that wrote this article are either ignorant or lying. Heck, if nobody interpreted it that way, then who are they even arguing with? Who are these "enemies" they speak of? Demons?
Impossible? The Bible is the word of God. Surely, God could foresee that Western religion would be in a ruckus over gay marriage. Furthermore, there have always been homosexuals, so even if they don't make a statement concerning marriage, they must have had an opinion concerning gay relationships.
What is moral is not synonymous with what is natural anyways. To imply such a relationship would be a naturalistic fallacy.
It is natural for men to occasionally want to rape women. Certainly, that doesn't suggest rape is moral.
The writers of this very article, in this very article, added words to passages from the Bible to form dubious interpretations because they really wanted to "interpret it that way." Double standard, anyone?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Instead of deciding what is or is not sin under this or that religion, why don't we simply deny the existance of all sins. Sins are imaginary. They are based on the judgements of imaginary beings.
And for that matter: the bible calls for the death of men who lie with men. This isn't ambiguous or confusing. Except for lesbians. Does the Bible forbid lesbianism; or does it only forbid men with men? Mabye God supports gay marriage, but only if both chicks are hot (taken from tshirthell.com i believe).
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
My favorite part was: Heck, if nobody interpreted it that way, then who are they even arguing with? Who are these "enemies" they speak of? Demons?
Lol, you know that was really funny. The whole thing. Good job.
lol
But really mate, the reason why I think you thought the whole passage was found to be a bunch of nonsense to you is because you didn't give her "scholars" the benefit of the doubt, as she had expected you to do.
What you did was far more intelligent. You used you NIV Bible to try and see what those verses actually said.
What you are fogetting, however, is that she and her "scholars" read the original Greek and Hebrew verses, and then came up with all possible translations for the words in English.
What you should really do is go on google search and look up the phrases of these "supposed" scholars and see if any of the verses in question have ever been translated that way.
I have done a bit of this myself. And the number of different translations on this is astounding. There are even more translations for these verses than I thought.
Or you could do it the hard way, and actually learn each Greek and Hebrew Word in these verses. That would take a very long time, I think.
Point is, the more translations you find, the easier it will be to come to the conclusion that a loving an exclusive homosexual relationship is not condemned as sin by the Holy Bible.
And this issue an important issue for the Christians and the homosexuals, for every day we have more homosexuals commiting suicide because of the persucution from the mainstream Christian churches. It is the church's fault, bceause the mainstream Christian churches never took enough time to do a deep study on these Bible verses that "seem" to condemn homosexuality.
Our time is running out, and gay hate-crimes are on the rise.
Fact: Did you know that a full 1/3 of all teenage suicides in the U.S. are homosexuals? Think about how many teenagers in the US commit suicide every day. And then think about how 1/3 of all those teenage suicides are homosexuals.
This is a terrible tragedy! They are killing themselves! I have read their journals, some of them even crying out to God to save them, begging God to please change their desires! But their desires do not change. They were born this way, and they are being persecuted by the Christians for it.
If the churches that accept gay people for who they are and I cannot prove mainstream Christian churches wrong, then the death toll on homosexuals will continue to rise! Both in suicides and hate crimes!
Will anyone help me in this?
This is really good!
And for that matter: the bible calls for the death of men who lie with men. This isn't ambiguous or confusing. Except for lesbians. Does the Bible forbid lesbianism; or does it only forbid men with men? Mabye God supports gay marriage, but only if both chicks are hot (taken from tshirthell.com i believe).
This can be used to show that the passage was not referring to homosexuality, because it left out the females. This is where a newly researched translation from the Original Greek could be put in.
How exciting!
Haha, thanks beefy.
By the way, I'm curious, are you a Christian?
There should be some programs or two-language dictionaries online that will allow you to look up individual words. It shouldn't be too bad, but I'm too lazy right now to do it. Maybe later.
Maybe. Language can never be perfectly precise in the first place. Translating to a different language just makes it ten times worse. Sometimes, one language will use a figure of speech that doesn't make sense in another. Sometimes, one language will have no word with the exact same meaning as a word in another language.
But, I still think the examples in the article you linked are ridiculous. How can the same sentence mean:
don't have sex with another man in your wife's bed
or
don't have sex with another man in the temple
or
don't have sex with another man and pretend he is a woman
I admit that I haven't read the Bible in its original languages, but...holy ****! I mean, this is just too much. Don't they have a word for "wife" or "temple" or "pretend" or "bed" in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic? Maybe it means, "Don't have sex with another man on a bed in a temple and pretend he's your wife?"
This is an atheist forum, so pretty much everyone here would support you on this.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Thanks. By the way, I am a Christian. Hope that means y'all atheists will still help me, even though I am Christian.
I have been kicked out of many churches in my life. Maybe it's because I won't let someone standing at a podium tell me what the Bible says. I read it for myself, no commentaries, no study guides, none of that extra mumbo jumbo.
I have been banished from many churches because I do not simply sit down, listen to a pastor and yell out "Praise Jesus!" I read and study and contemplate on the Bible in its entirety, not just the verses or scriptures that the Pastor chooses to pick out for me.
When I began to read the Bible more and more, I came to an astonishing (but somewhat suspected) conclusion! That mainstream Christianity is teaching false doctrine!
The way I see it, the best way to stop all the evils that mainstream Christianity is doing in the world...
like war, persecuting homosexuals, forcing their laws upon nonbelievers
...is to infiltrate it from the inside!
Teaching Christians to go to war and kill their fellow man...False Doctrine. (Plethora of biblical evidence already prepared)
Teaching Christians that Homosexuality is a sin..................False Doctrine. (Biblical evidence being compiled-work in progress)
Teaching Christians to force "Christian Laws" on nonbelievers...False Doctrine(Biblical evidence prepared)
Teaching Christians to say vows, oaths, or promises of any sort...False Doctrine(Biblical evidence prepared)
Teaching Christians to judge and condemn other people..........False Doctrine (Biblical evidence prepared)
Teaching Christians that if you are once saved, always saved...False Doctrine (Biblical evidence prepared)
Once everything is ready, I will likely start my career as a theologian. I might be a pastor, but I would rather someone else do that (I'm not the greatest public speaker because I have terrible memory). I wish to help others see that Christianity should never be forced upon anyone! That if others choose to be a Christian, they will have done so of their own free will! And if they choose to become a Christian, it is because they see the good examples that other Christians have set! No more Hypocrisy! No more Biggotry! No More Greed!
A Christian church that gives to the poor on the street, instead of calling them crazies, drug-addicts and welfare-junkies!
A Christian church that feeds and clothes its enemies in the third world countries that hate America! What a change will occur in those regions because of the love we will have shown!
A Christian church that stoops down to help all who ask them, instead of being haughty and condescending!
That is the kind of Christian church I want to see! The one Jesus envisioned.
The people who commit suicide could just convert to a different religion. It's not like Christianity is the only game in town.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
and then what, God sends them to Hell ?