Oppression of Atheism, adoption, and me saying goodbye (-ish)

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Oppression of Atheism, adoption, and me saying goodbye (-ish)

Hi everyone.

 

I've been posting very little here lately, and I'd like to take this opportunity to try and sum up a bunch of the things I've thought about writing for a while, but have just been too lazy to do.

The reason I am prompted to write this post is an article I stumpled on just now, that's got my more angry, frustrated, and disgusted than I've ever been, but more on that later, because I think you deserve a bit of background first, that can also serve to present you with some of the other thoughts I've been having lately.

Maybe two years ago I found Penn and Teller's Bullshit on the internet, and quickly consumed a bunch of episodes that I could find streams or downloads to, for the entertainment value more than anything, though I of course sympathized with the sceptic aproach of the show.

In so doing I came across the Blasphemy Challenge (can't remember if it's featured on "Bullshit" in an episode, or if I came across it somewhere else. You know what surfing is like), and soon I was visiting RichardDawkins.net and many other sites, including this one, because the whole "New Atheist Movement" had losts of entertainment value to me.

Now as most of you know I'm from Denmark, and you have to understand, for a Scandinavian like me, the whole debate that's croped up over the last 6 to 8 years, is more alien and exotic than anything else. Sure, we realize that people are very different politically, philosophically and spiritually in other parts of the world, but we still live a fairly isolated existence up here in the North, and it really is fascinating from a Scandinavian's perspective to see just how differently people treat politics and difference of opinion between people in other parts of the world, especially the U.S.

We really are a pretty homogenius bunch up here, when all's said and done, and as such, I've never been able to meet anyone in real life with whom to disagree so vehemently as seems to be a daily occurance for most people in the U.S. The very notion of feeling so strongly about your neighbour's opinions and beliefs, as many appear to do in the U.S, with regard to both religious beliefs, and political opinion, on both the atheist, theist, liberal and conservative sides, is foreign, even alien to me.

 

So I've always felt slightly detached from the whole debate, approaching it more as the study of history or anthropology: it's fascinating and exotic, and it gives me insight into the human condition, but it's not really MY reality.

But for a while there I was a reasonably active poster on these boards, and as time has gone on, I've started spending alot of time on the internet, reading, watching youtube clips and Google Videos of lectures and booktours, and generally emersing myself in American culture.

With the election of Barack Obama, I found myself drifting away from the Atheist/theist cultureclash in America, and started becoming more interested in the Conservative/liberal divide, which was the first reason I started posting less here.

I never got into following the activism of the RRS, and only really followed the forum here, so at first I didn't really notice that the RRS slowed down as an activist group, because the boards here kept going undaunted. I really like you guys here: Hampy, Will, Allison, Nigel, and all the rest of you, and have had lots of fun reading, and occasionally contributing to the boards, but as it became more and more of a laid back social club, I've found I've spent less and less time here.

Not that I mind the social club feel, but for that I've got friends in real life too, that draw my attention just as much.

But importantly, I also felt more and more alienated from the general topics that started to be the norm here, as the Social club became the dominant role of this forum. Either we were repeating the same old arguments to drive by theists, or the atheists here were discussing personal issues about being an atheist in America that I couldn't relate to, and so didn't feel I could contribute much to.

 

And then came that subject a couple months ago about: "Who is it that's oppresing you atheists? Give me an example of atheist oppresion?"

 

I remember posting something in that thread about how while I'd never been oppressed, it was clear that my American friends here suffered all sorts of bigotry and prejudice for being atheists, and I stand by that, but I still remember thinking that I didn't really know how bad it is over there, and I wasn't sure if I was being overly judgemental of American society in general to think that there is a real Civil Liberties issue with regards to atheism.

As much as I respect and empathise with you guys here, I really had no way of knowing if the impression I got from this place was really reprensentative of what it is like to be an Atheist in America in general.

I mean, the RRS has got a very bad rep around the interwebs for being a bunch of hyperbolic fanatics, and while I KNOW that isn't true, I still have to admit that some of the atheist posters here I don't trust to represent "mainstream" atheism in America.

Like I said, the level of emotion and antagonism I see in American politics leads me to believe that keeping a level head is not very fashionable over there, and I know from Liberal blogs and liberal media that this goes for some of the Americans I agree with too.

So lately I've started toying with the idea of moving on to another forum, to see if the grass is greener, so to speak. Specifically theleagueofreason.co.uk. I'll still keep my profile here, and stop by from time to time, but now you know why it is, if you'll be seeing less of me from now on, and you'll know where to find me.

 

I will be moving on, but tonight I had to rethink one of the reasons I'm moving on from here.

 

It happened when I saw this:

 

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,877155,00.html

 

Atheism IS a civil liberties issue of the most grave magnitude if something as vile as this can take place in America!

I know that this is just one isolated case, I know that miscarriages of justice happen everywhere all the time, here in my country too, and that thousands of children end up in fostercare, even when there are willing parents out there, but never in my life have I been so mad!

 

To read of a judge display such blatant hypochrasy, to so malevolently debase two loving parents, to so violently fuck up the life of an innocent child who caught the luckiest break of all: to find a loving family, makes me sick to my stomach.

 

My sister Isabel is adobted from Equador, my cousin Kalla is adobted from Sri Lanka, and recently my brother and his wife adopted my niece Frida from South Africa.

Everyone who's had experience with adoption knows the bittersweet emotions that the subject brings. To know how many loving parents with no kids that are out there. To know the sorrow, frustration and heart-ache it is to go through the adorous process of adoption, to know how many kids, like my dear Frida will never ever win that cosmicly unfair lottery it is to be lucky enough to be found by a safe and loving family.

 

And then to see it spat on by such a pompous selfrightious bigot, all in the name of: "parents don't get to influence their child with their beliefs"!?!?!?!

 

Such hypocracy! Such... such...

 

I'm at a loss for words...

 

Not only does he not belong on the bench, such a man belongs in prison, if there was any justice in the world.

 

 

 

Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin


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ehhh... fuck... Right so

ehhh... fuck...

 

Right so I've got egg on my face now... It turns out the damn article is from 1970... Makes the whole thing very different. Everything I said still stands, and I'm still outraged, but it's hardly the same.

 

But it's the most read article on Time magazine homepage, so I didn't suspect at all that it wouldn't be current.

 

I looked the title up on Google to find more on the case, and the second hit after Time.com itself was RichardDawkins.net that has posted the story, so I suppose that's how it's been boosted to "most read" on Time.com. The comments there pointed out it was from 1970, so there I was feeling stupid...

 

Well anyway... There you are...

Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin


darth_josh
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I rather enjoy the

I rather enjoy the non-American participants in the forums (except the Canadians. deludedgod excluded from the canadian rolls).

The idea is to get a sense at how the same types of problems are dealt with in their respective environs.

It isn't so much as we need a foreign ear to listen to our troubles as it is for us to listen to your achievements and/or goals.

While your empathy is appreciated, your input is treasured.

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Bye Nikloaj      

Bye Nikloaj

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Nikolaj wrote:Specifically

Nikolaj wrote:

Specifically theleagueofreason.co.uk.

That's a great site. I already have an account there, but I've only posted a few times.  

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: Bye

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Bye Nikloaj

 

Haha! That almost provokes me enough to stick around, just for you Alison. I did say goodbye-ish. And I am notoriously weak-willed when it comes to making decisions and sticking to them Eye-wink

 

No but seriously, I will be spending as much time here as the topics posted in future will compell me to. If I start to read things more often that I want to respond to, I'll just come back to being an active poster.

 

I'm just planing on trying Leagueofreason out, so I just wanted to point out that if I stop posting here for a long time, you'll know where I ended up, on the off chance that some of you might actually miss me. You clearly won't though... Sad

 

Anyway, I just discovered now that the Richard Dawkins forum link to the Time's article is from january of 2008, so now I'm completely at a loss as to why it is the most read article on Time.com right now...

 

Anyone more internet savvy than me who might be able to figure out what has revived interest in a 1970's article on Time.com tonight?

Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin


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As someone from a country

As someone from a country (Australia) somewhere in between the USA and Denmark on these issues (closer to Denmark I would like to think), I think I can understand your perspective.

I have always found your posts very considered and informative.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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darth_josh wrote:I rather

darth_josh wrote:

I rather enjoy the non-American participants in the forums (except the Canadians. deludedgod excluded from the canadian rolls).

Just admit that you love Canada, bitch face. Then suck my balls.

 

It would be sad to see you go, Nikolaj. You're part of the fun camaraderie we have going here.

 

Excluding darth_josh, who needs to get to tossing my salad like the skeezy bitch he is.

... singing O Canada

... on a dog sled

... doused in Canadian Club

... in a flannel red and black check sweater shirt

... wearing a toque

... with Gordon Lightfoot blaring in the background

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Nikolaj wrote: Anyone more

Nikolaj wrote:

 

Anyone more internet savvy than me who might be able to figure out what has revived interest in a 1970's article on Time.com tonight?

 

Well, it is doing fairly well on digg right now.  I have seen smaller websites go down from the digg effect before.

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HisWillness wrote:darth_josh

HisWillness wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

I rather enjoy the non-American participants in the forums (except the Canadians. deludedgod excluded from the canadian rolls).

Just admit that you love Canada, bitch face. Then suck my balls.

 

It would be sad to see you go, Nikolaj. You're part of the fun camaraderie we have going here.

 

Excluding darth_josh, who needs to get to tossing my salad like the skeezy bitch he is.

... singing O Canada

... on a dog sled

... doused in Canadian Club

... in a flannel red and black check sweater shirt

... wearing a toque

... with Gordon Lightfoot blaring in the background

lmao. baited, hooked, and served.

I think this might be something akin to what Nik was saying. We do wander off more than occasionally into things that couldn't possibly hold any interest for him. Such as Canadian vocabulary deficiencies.

For the record, I wouldn't toss your salad even if you had a poppyseed dressing enema. lol.

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darth_josh wrote:lmao.

darth_josh wrote:

lmao. baited, hooked, and served.

What, that's it? I thought we were going to have more shit talking!

Pff. Fine. I guess it's not the national pass-time like it is up here.

darth_josh wrote:

For the record, I wouldn't toss your salad even if you had a poppyseed dressing enema. lol.

Must ... resist ... temptation ... to do ... mom joke ... argh!

 

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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HisWillness wrote:Must ...

HisWillness wrote:

Must ... resist ... temptation ... to do ... mom joke ... argh!

Your mom gave you poppyseed dressing enemas???

 

I might have to share my e-mail I sent to the History channel requesting verification of work visas for the two canadians featured on this season's 'Ice Road Truckers' since they are in Alaska.

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darth_josh wrote:HisWillness

darth_josh wrote:

HisWillness wrote:

Must ... resist ... temptation ... to do ... mom joke ... argh!

Your mom gave you poppyseed dressing enemas???

I was going to go with the short hand "your mom didn't seem to mind". Bit of a throw-away, really. There are some more elaborate ones, but I don't think I know you well enough to throw a seriously offensive mom joke.

I mean, I know your mom that well, just not you.

darth_josh wrote:
I might have to share my e-mail I sent to the History channel requesting verification of work visas for the two canadians featured on this season's 'Ice Road Truckers' since they are in Alaska.

I'm not really up on the television programs. Are you suggesting that some of my fellow countrymen showed up on a TV show without work visas? That would be unique. Television production assistants are so thorough that I'd be very surprised.

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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Nikolaj wrote: but I still

Nikolaj wrote:
 but I still remember thinking that I didn't really know how bad it is over there, and I wasn't sure if I was being overly judgmental of American society in general to think that there is a real Civil Liberties issue with regards to atheism.

The oppressed American atheist is rather an exaggeration, whatever sort of instances one can point to of an atheist being oppressed, can be equally found in certain instances of theist being "oppressed". I've been an atheist for a number of years, with my evangelical family and friends all aware of the fact, and the notion of me being oppressed, or even the possibility of being "oppressed" because of my lack of belief, sounds as foreign to me as it does to you.

I believe what's often treated as oppression, is in fact more of annoyance of certain obnoxious strain of atheism, the foaming Dawkins brand, that get parroted on South Park. Brad Pitt came out as an atheist a few weeks ago, you're not going to find boycotts of his films being proposed, or public outrage, or even a degrading of his likable status, and the Harry Potter franchise has done just fine after Radcliffe's confession of disbelief as well.

But we have population of over a quarter billion, so you're always going to find instances of someone getting the shit end for being an atheist, in fact you'll find this to be even true for some theist, like the family in San Diego who were harassed for holding prayer meetings at their house, but its quite an exaggeration to say these instances are anything but rare. 

Most americans don't give too shits what you believe, as long as you ain't trying to shove your beliefs down their throat, and tell them their idiotic for the beliefs they hold. 

 

 

 


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:3

theTwelve wrote:

Most americans don't give too shits what you believe, as long as you ain't trying to shove your beliefs down their throat, and tell them their idiotic for the beliefs they hold. 

 

 

And this is where the problems start. Unfortunately, when the religious groups try to pass laws to enforce /their/ religious beliefs on others, it makes things into a mess.

 

If they kept their crazy to themselves I wouldn't care that much. It never seems to work out that way though.

 

 

 


 

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Take care man. We'll see you

Take care man. We'll see you around. Smiling

Josh, watch yourself. We WILL conquer you sleazy fuckers again if you cross the line. Next time, however, we won't give you the country back. Eye-wink

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Hello Nikolaj. Have a good

Hello Nikolaj. Have a good time there, and take a look back at us sometimes.
The question in article should rather be: Can those who won't sacrifice their firstborn to Yahweh be a good parents? Sticking out tongue

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ClockCat wrote:And this is

ClockCat wrote:

And this is where the problems start. Unfortunately, when the religious groups try to pass laws to enforce /their/ religious beliefs on others, it makes things into a mess.

Well, unfortunately dude we live in a democracy, and a situation in which all of us attempt to push our beliefs on others. Liberals and Conservatives attempt to enforce their values on me, I value the taste of little puppies, but I'm prohibited by laws imposed on me by animal rights groups. Secular Humanist seek to impose their values on society all the time, religious groups do the same.

Quote:
If they kept their crazy to themselves I wouldn't care that much. It never seems to work out that way though.

Well, tell those secular humanist to keep their crazy views to themselves, tell them to stop pushing for debt forgiveness of third world countries, for foreign aid, for welfare checks, for open borders, and lenient immigration laws, or demanding that my tax money be used for environmental issues, etc....

Do you get the point yet?

 

 


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:o

theTwelve wrote:

ClockCat wrote:

And this is where the problems start. Unfortunately, when the religious groups try to pass laws to enforce /their/ religious beliefs on others, it makes things into a mess.

Well, unfortunately dude we live in a democracy, and a situation in which all of us attempt to push our beliefs on others. Liberals and Conservatives attempt to enforce their values on me, I value the taste of little puppies, but I'm prohibited by laws imposed on me by animal rights groups. Secular Humanist seek to impose their values on society all the time, religious groups do the same.

Quote:
If they kept their crazy to themselves I wouldn't care that much. It never seems to work out that way though.

Well, tell those secular humanist to keep their crazy views to themselves, tell them to stop pushing for debt forgiveness of third world countries, for foreign aid, for welfare checks, for open borders, and lenient immigration laws, or demanding that my tax money be used for environmental issues, etc....

Do you get the point yet?

 

 

 

 

I get the point that you don't quite understand where withholding rights from other people, because you don't agree with their lifestyle...is not the same as economic and foreign policies.

 

That I get. I think you need to take a civics course.

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ClockCat wrote:I get the

ClockCat wrote:
I get the point that you don't quite understand where withholding rights from other people, because you don't agree with their lifestyle.

Here:

I'm tired of them damn liberals withholding my right to legally marry more than one wife at a time. I'm tired of them liberals prohibiting me from have sex with my farm animals. 

If individuals in democratic societies, desire to keep the title of "marriage" as something sacred, and granted to only males and females, to encourage a sort of lifestyle they are in support of, they are welcome to pursue legal and political means of doing so, regardless if you or I disagree with them.

 

 

 

 


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 Nikolaj, I've always

 Nikolaj, I've always enjoyed your perspective on issues, particularly because you bring a certain non-American objectivity to a lot of topics, but also because you're just damn good at seeing several sides of the same argument.

I've been much more active in other circles recently, for many of the same reasons you list.  I think any social movement has to be larger than the people involved in it, or it's destined for failure.   I wish you all the best, and hope you find what you're looking for.   I also hope we do see you here from time to time.  Social club or not, I really enjoy the topics here, and plan to stick around.

 

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theTwelve wrote:Here:I'm

Nikolaj, btw, what do you think about registration on that forum? Did everything go well? As for me, there's some problem with receiving an activation e-mail, it just doesn't come.

theTwelve wrote:
Here:

I'm tired of them damn liberals withholding my right to legally marry more than one wife at a time. I'm tired of them liberals prohibiting me from have sex with my farm animals. 

Well, and what about one woman wanting to marry more husbands at a time? Women also have rights, after all. This logically continued by marriage of multiple men with multiple women, which would require to estabilish a new term in our laws - a tribe Smiling Of course, children would have to be exchanged with other tribes, to avoid degeneration. Good luck with that in Congress.

 

 

 

 

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How unfortunate that twelve

How unfortunate that twelve has to start shit in a social thread. How fortunate that he requires as little effort as he always does.

"Well, unfortunately dude we live in a democracy, and a situation in which all of us attempt to push our beliefs on others. Liberals and Conservatives attempt to enforce their values on me, I value the taste of little puppies, but I'm prohibited by laws imposed on me by animal rights groups. Secular Humanist seek to impose their values on society all the time, religious groups do the same."

Obviously you never read the US constitution. Neither have I, really, but I've read bits of it. There's a gem inside. Religion must not have anything to do with politics, and vice versa. Democracy still has rules, and theists are breaking them.

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Vastet wrote:H" Obviously

Vastet wrote:
H" Obviously you never read the US constitution. Neither have I, really, but I've read bits of it. There's a gem inside. Religion must not have anything to do with politics, and vice versa. Democracy still has rules, and theists are breaking them.

 

Really? So the constitution prohibits citizens from voting in favor of their "religious" values, such as prohibiting gay marriage, or voting in favor of pro-life?

So if I were to believe that I have a religious obligation to help the poor, and sought to create government policies in favor of the poor, are you saying the constitution prohibits this?

Since the two supposedly religious values here of concern are abortion and gay-marriage, are you saying that seeking to illegalize abortion, and prohibit gay-marriage is unconstitutional? That'd be a new argument for me, but is that what you're claiming?

 

 

 

 


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I'm not sure what the

I'm not sure what the disagreement is (communication FTW), but the first amendment only prohibits the government from "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Individuals are free to pursue whatever cause or issue they want.

Also, if a bill is championed by a specific religion and even if most supporters of the bill are members of that same religion, this still doesn't, technically, violate the first amendment. Obviously, there will always be non-religious supporters and non-religious arguments supporting every such bill (albeit, maybe bad ones), but even if there weren't, the bill must still explicitly violate the amendment. So, banning abortions and gay marriage is not unconstitutional.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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They're unconstitutional by

They're unconstitutional by forcing their made up RELIGIOUS values on everyone else, using politics to do so. Marriage is a contract, it's not sacred. Noone has the right to interfere with a couple's happiness and well being, no matter the sexes involved. The religious do a piss poor job at charity, government is far better. Abortion is a bed of nails. You show me a society that can and does care for unwanted children, and remove the safety and health factors involved in pregnancy to the point that the mother doesn't have to carry the baby to term, and I'll agree that abortion should be illegal except under extreme conditions. That's a rational argument that takes into account all parties involved. Religious idiots just say their imaginary friend is against it. Fuck the mother, the father, the doctor, the child, and everyone else. My imaginary friend says so. Well too bad. Keep your mouth shut where it doesn't concern you. If there's a god, it'll take care of it in the after life. Not you, not now.

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"expressly prohibits the

"expressly prohibits the Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion", prohibiting the free exercise of religion, infringing the freedom of speech, infringing the freedom of the press, limiting the right to peaceably assemble, or limiting the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances.Although the First Amendment only explicitly applies to the Congress, the Supreme Court has interpreted it as applying to the executive and judicial branches. Additionally, in the 20th century, the Supreme Court held that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment applies the limitations of the First Amendment to each state, including any local government within a state."

Any law therefore irrevocably tied to religious goals and with no support from the secular or scientific communities is by definition unconstitutional. See: god in the pledge, on money; gay marriage, lots more.

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.