Are the Canadian Left more united?

ragdish
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Are the Canadian Left more united?

When I lived in Ontario, Canada in the 1980s the MP (I think it was Dan Peterson) and the Liberal Party along with the New Democratic Party passed legislation which prevented physicians from extra-billing. This bill passed unanimously through the Legislative Assembly among the Left.

Hypothetically, if similar legislation was passed through the Congress of the United States, the Democrats would be all over the map both for and against. And there are countless examples of laws being passed in Canada without any gridlock within the leftwing political parties. Therefore, is the Left in Canada more united than the "Left" in the United States? And if so, why? Is there truly a Left in the USA? Or are the Democrats merely a centrist party (with some leaning to the Right and some to the Left) and the Republicans simply right of center? Or do political parties really have meaningul ideologies in the US? Is it just special interest groups with powerful lobbies that ultimately pull the strings of both political parties?


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ragdish wrote:When I lived

ragdish wrote:

When I lived in Ontario, Canada in the 1980s the MP (I think it was Dan Peterson) and the Liberal Party along with the New Democratic Party passed legislation which prevented physicians from extra-billing. This bill passed unanimously through the Legislative Assembly among the Left.

Hypothetically, if similar legislation was passed through the Congress of the United States, the Democrats would be all over the map both for and against. And there are countless examples of laws being passed in Canada without any gridlock within the leftwing political parties. Therefore, is the Left in Canada more united than the "Left" in the United States? And if so, why? Is there truly a Left in the USA? Or are the Democrats merely a centrist party (with some leaning to the Right and some to the Left) and the Republicans simply right of center? Or do political parties really have meaningul ideologies in the US? Is it just special interest groups with powerful lobbies that ultimately pull the strings of both political parties?

In the states it seems more like a continuum of ideologies upheld by special interest groups.  There seems to be very little solidarity within the major parties and the members certainly aren't whipped like those in Canada.

To answer the first question directly, I don't believe the 'left' is 'more' united in Canada.  I believe the practice of party whipping is simply efficacious.

In regards to the actual spectrum of ideologies exhibited by the majority parties, all of Canadian parties seems to be, in terms of an American scale, shifted left.  If the Democrats were to be considered centrist, which is not unfair, Our Conservatives would sit nearly alongside with the Liberals to the left and the NDP and Bloc still further left.  Clearly, despite the apparent lack of solidarity, the Republicans all tend to lean quite right of any other party taken into consideration, if our only comparison is for social ideologies.

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I would point out the GOP's "purifying the party" goal of the last few years. They don't care of they appeal to everyone, because they openly attack and show hatred to anyone that doesn't believe exactly the way they do. Yes, they are largely religious bigots.

 

 

Meanwhile, Democrats have a lot of liberals (Where Republican liberals may as well not exist). The more tolerant nature of the democrat party in the United States is why it largely overshadows the republican party in number of members.

 

However, what it ends up being is, "You either agree to the GOP line or get out." Look at how Ron Paul was treated, for example. He was a traditional conservative and his party set out to destroy him when he ran for president, because he isn't following the party line. Which unfortunately means that a lot of people become democrats, simply because they can't follow lockstep with the GOP ideals and both the democrat and republican parties have both pushed us into a "winner takes all" system in every voting area possible, to deny third parties from growing.

 


 

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I would say our parties are

I would say our parties are much LESS united than their US counterparts. We may appear otherwise, but it's simply because we lean left as a nation.

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Greater unity over issues like healthcare in Canada

When universal healthcare gained momentum in the 60s in Canada, there was never the unfounded town hall verbal diarrhea that seems to shape the American mindset in the current attempt at healthcare reform. The pervasive childish, anti-intellect in the US boggles my mind. Both Republicans and Democrats support the socialism of Medicare and Veterans Affairs as do most Americans. Yet those same Americans cry foul at any tax payer based "socialist" public plan for the 50 million who are uninsured. I could never imagine anything similar in Canada.

The Canadian who chugs down Molsons and watches Hockey Night in Canada has an American counterpart who is a beer guzzling NASCAR loving Joe Sixpacker. Superficially they both seem to be the same and yet that Canuck would defend his universal healthcare right. The American on the other hand only wants to defend his right to own and use a gun. And they could live just a few miles from each other at the Windsor-Detroit border. Yet culturally, they seem to be lightyears apart on such fundamental issues like education and healthcare.


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Thomathy wrote:   In

Thomathy wrote:

 

In the states it seems more like a continuum of ideologies upheld by special interest groups. There seems to be very little solidarity within the major parties and the members certainly aren't whipped like those in Canada.

 

To answer the first question directly, I don't believe the 'left' is 'more' united in Canada. I believe the practice of party whipping is simply efficacious.

 

In regards to the actual spectrum of ideologies exhibited by the majority parties, all of Canadian parties seems to be, in terms of an American scale, shifted left. If the Democrats were to be considered centrist, which is not unfair, Our Conservatives would sit nearly alongside with the Liberals to the left and the NDP and Bloc still further left. Clearly, despite the apparent lack of solidarity, the Republicans all tend to lean quite right of any other party taken into consideration, if our only comparison is for social ideologies.

 

Well, I would say that you are at least partly correct there. However, there are a couple of other factors to consider.

 

Population: Remember that there are nearly ten times as many people down here. That means that there are more people willing to argue any specific issue. If that does not slow progress down, then I don't know what does. Actually, that is probably not a bad thing when you consider what stunning turds of legislation tend to come out of Washington when we do come together politically.

 

Political organization: While you are correct that there is probably a spectrum of ideologies, would that not be true for any nation that has at least a fairly large population? What is probably more relevant is the differences between the two nations as far as how party politics comes together.

 

From what I gather, Canada currently has four political parties holding some amount of power on the national level. In the US, while we have many defined parties, really only two of them are viable. Now the fact of the matter is that in a two party system, coalitions are not really viable. What matters more to us are the centrists who can cross from one side to the other at will depending on the specific issue at hand.

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Population: Remember that there are nearly ten times as many people down here. That means that there are more people willing to argue any specific issue. If that does not slow progress down, then I don't know what does. Actually, that is probably not a bad thing when you consider what stunning turds of legislation tend to come out of Washington when we do come together politically.
Agreed.  Of course, it's less a problem in a parliamentary system, even if the population were large; the Government almost always gets what it wants.

Quote:
Political organization: While you are correct that there is probably a spectrum of ideologies, would that not be true for any nation that has at least a fairly large population? What is probably more relevant is the differences between the two nations as far as how party politics comes together.
I'm not sure that a large population is necessary for that spectrum.  Think regionalism.  It's perhaps as relevant in both countries and certainly understated in Canada.

Quote:
From what I gather, Canada currently has four political parties holding some amount of power on the national level.
Quote:
True.  We also have many defined parties.  Nearly as irrelevant as those in the US.

Quote:
In the US, while we have many defined parties, really only two of them are viable. Now the fact of the matter is that in a two party system, coalitions are not really viable. What matters more to us are the centrists who can cross from one side to the other at will depending on the specific issue at hand.

Well, I agree.  In Canada, only in minority situations do governments have to rely on 'coalitions' (I'm hesitant to use the word because they don't with very few exceptions.  Mostly they use the threat of early election, or otherwise bargain for compromises).

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While we do have more than

While we do have more than two recognisable parties that hold, have held, or will foreseeably hold seats(there are 5), only two of them are truly viable. The Block du Quebecois only can take seats in Quebec, which will forever deny them the ability to gain federal power. The NDP has never won a government, and at best can be considered a bunch of successful independents who joined forces. The Greens, while making remarkable strides over the last few years, just don't have enough to win more than a handful of ridings. The Liberals and Conservatives are the only federal parties that really matter.

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Vastet wrote:While we do

Vastet wrote:
While we do have more than two recognisable parties that hold, have held, or will foreseeably hold seats(there are 5), only two of them are truly viable. The Block du Quebecois only can take seats in Quebec, which will forever deny them the ability to gain federal power. The NDP has never won a government, and at best can be considered a bunch of successful independents who joined forces. The Greens, while making remarkable strides over the last few years, just don't have enough to win more than a handful of ridings. The Liberals and Conservatives are the only federal parties that really matter.

Quite true. Yet I get the sense that the Liberals and Progressive Conservatives are more ideologically distinct when compared with the Democrats and Republicans in the US.


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ragdish wrote:Quite true.

ragdish wrote:

Quite true. Yet I get the sense that the Liberals and Progressive Conservatives are more ideologically distinct when compared with the Democrats and Republicans in the US.

I also find this to be the case (though I assume you mean Conservative, as in the federal party).  The party lines are not as distinct.  As was pointed out, it seems there are a mixture of centrist performers in both parties in the States as well as a wider spectrum of differing ideologies within the parties themselves.  I've always had a difficult time deciding on the real differences between Democrats and Republicans whereas with Conservatives and Liberals it has always been quite easy.

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Republicans exclude whatever they determine is not in their "traditional" conservative set. Traditions of course, vary...but everyone that ISN'T with that lump, tends to find themself independant or democrat. This is what I meant when I said you have to stay to the party line.

 

The democratic party is much larger, and much more diverse as a result. Which means that it also agrees less on things.

 

 

I don't know a lot about the political system up there, but it doesn't seem to have the divide that there is here between rural/urban areas. Politically, nearly every urban area tends to be democrat, and nearly every rural area tends to be republican/independant.

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ClockCat wrote:I don't know

ClockCat wrote:

I don't know a lot about the political system up there, but it doesn't seem to have the divide that there is here between rural/urban areas. Politically, nearly every urban area tends to be democrat, and nearly every rural area tends to be republican/independant.

The divide is certainly there.  There are just more divisions and a different distinction between rural and urban (Canada has a tenth of the people and of the largest 100 urban areas 82 have less than 200,000 people and 64 have less than 100,000 ...our urban areas are fewer and smaller than those in the US).  Nationally, industrial, highly unionized, urban centres tend to NDP, large mixed economy urban centres invariably tend toward Liberal (or in Quebec the Bloc), rural areas in Eastern Ontario tend toward NDP, rural areas in Western Ontario tend toward Liberal, Quebec is dominated largely by the Bloc with (historically) a fare Liberal mix, the East is mainly Liberal with some Conservative in the Southern Maritime provinces, Manitoba is largely NDP with some Conservative in the South, West until BC is all Conservative, BC is all Conservative but the coast is NDP, Northwest Territories is NDP, Yukon is Liberal and Nunavut is Conservative.  The last election really skewed things because of a particular hatred for the Liberals -Canadians will cast strategic votes when pushed.

A key:
 

NDP - Left
Bloc - Left
Liberal - Left, Centrist
Conservative - Right

Essentially, you can count on the West being right, the East being left and urban centres being left.  Naturally, as with the US, there are exceptions to the pattern.

 

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."