Yeah, she asked for what Christianity teaches about the power of prayer, not what individuals believe. 

Unfortunately, we're not even sure what Christianity teaches. Most Christians think they're sure, but they also often disagree with each other. Many verses in the Bible are really ambiguous or contradict other verses, so I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case here. 

Except it is for all those people that think it is a "test of faith" that they are repeatedly told it is by their churches.

"God is testing us. It is his will our daughter die from the flu. It is a trial he set for us in his plan."

double post

Uhm, why does it have to be a woman ?

This is fascinating stuff, actually. Seems there even was (is ? ) a "faith-healing exemption" in one state.

As for figures, the only study I found so far is from a religious site, and it mentions 172 reported deaths of infants and children between 1975 and 1995 in 23 states.

I'll keep looking for more recent figures, cuz I'd like to know if it's gone up or down since then. (But I'll keep it out of this thread, no worries)

You're reading someone's mind there, I'm sure , but it isn't mine.

Look, I could be mistaken, but I thought it was about this : "This is about what Christianity teaches, not what Christians do." , like Cap asked.

I'm pretty sure she'd like some bible verses or christian doctrine explaining what christianity teaches regarding her questions in the OP.

We already posted some.

Anyway, if you'd like to tell her again what's wrong with her question, just go ahead and tell her. No skin off my nose.

Because you could have easily found it yourself if you googled the quote. But sure, I'll help. Here's the article where they got their facts :

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/101/4/625

Maybe this verse is what the belief in faith healing is based on:

Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. {15} And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. {16} Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
- Source: James 5:14-16

 

 

 

 

If all Capt. wants to know is if Christianity in its purest form teaches that prayer is an appropriate tool, on its own, to solve a problem...

Of course it is.  The central doctrine teaches the idea that miracles are real, faith healing is real and magical thinking is real.  Saints and apostles used prayer and god to change the world around them.  When Moses wanted to cross the red sea it doesn't say he told his people to make boats, he prayed and God pulled a miracle out.  When the Israelites were wandering the desert, it doesn't say they dug wells are started farms, it says they prayed and got food and water straight from God.

Again, if that is the question, the answer is such a simple and clear 'yes' that there can be no debate.

If the question is: Do a majority of modern 'Christians' act like this?  No.  I would still argue that most modern Christians don't really have any concept of what their watered down religion is.

If the question is: Do a large number of modern Christians still hold to this idea?  Then it depends on what a 'large' number is, and how you ask the question.  If you define the question in the harshest most literal specific form, "Is Prayer alone more appropriate than medical care for treatment of disease?" then in America I would guess there would be tens of thousands who would say yes.  If you define the question a tad more liberally, "Is Prayer more important than secular activity to accomplish a goal?" then easily hundreds of thousands and possibly millions.  If you just ask a generic, "Is prayer highly important to accomplishing secular activity" then you would get tens of millions to say yes.

I would be interested to see what the responses would be in a less literate place like Africa...I imagine the numbers would be more skewed towards the former responses.  Statistically, education seems to be the enemy of fundamentalist theism.

Well, you can break it down to, are these case a significant percentage of the fundies? Do their views express the views of fundies in general? Evangelical Christians make up about 60 million Americans, is the dominant view that pray is seen as mean to forgo medical care? The answer is no, and plainly obvious to even an moderate level of reflection.

No, i understand what the individual implying here mean it as. But it's incorrect, and the statement alone doesn't clarify what they are trying to claim. When you pray you pray for ends, nothing controversial here, what the individuals here are implying is not prayer alone, by limitation of how that prayer is to be answered, by purely supernatural means. 

The fundie community will always pray to be healed when their sick, yet take medication along with this prayer, and see when they finally recovered as an answer to prayer. 

Now, historically this has been the view of those making supplications to God, whether for victory in war, or other fortunes in life. When the pagans made supplication to their god to favor their side in war, they didn't forgo preparation. They didn't sit on their ass believing, "fuck getting our men trained, and weapons made", relying solely on supernatural intervention for victory. This just has not been the view, and Judeo-Christianity view on prayer, has not differed from this. No where in scripture do you find verses advocating the forgoing of natural means to deal with issues in favor of prayer. None of scriptures paint individuals hey guys let fuck preparing for this war, and just pray instead for victory. And Judging that Christianity is the birth of most of or hospitals and medical care, speaks volumes contrary to "prayer alone". Judging evangelical organizations through out the world provide medical care, and assistance through out the world speaks volumes as well. 

What prayer, and such offering served, was a means to hand over the uncertainty, what's beyond a person hands, even the medication hands, to the Gods to favor in. This doesn't take any sort of apologist to understand this basic view of things, that is not even limited to theist. 

What the hell is so difficult with that concept? We know it occurs, especially with illness, since many people, including Bill Maher, believe all sorts of nonsense about the 'Medical Establishment', or 'Big Pharma', etc.

I'm sure, of course you would reject the testimony of people like James Randi about the evils of Benny Hinn, where people believe so strongly in his 'power', which is obviously closely tied in with belief in the efficacy of prayer or other faith-based approaches. They either never get admitted as I mentioned before, or if they do, they may believe so strongly that they achieve some apparent 'cure' due to an intense placebo effect, and don't think they need to bother with medical treatment in future. Investigators have documented several such people dying not too long after of conditions which could have been addressed  medically.

Prayer rarely involves rejecting normal means. You claim it's often but I want you to quantity that, or else it comes as dopey as claiming that atheist often kill priest and nuns.

Notice, the concern of this thread, has been what the dominant view of prayer among theist are, and I spun that off to what the dominant view of fundies are. Do you understand this. It's sort of like if you claimed the majority of atheist do not promote killing preist and nuns, my use of Stalin, or Jacobins wouldn't refute that claim. 

The only thing they seem to agree on, according to their own sites, is that they should pray, because the bible tells them to.

Promises are made in the bible about what prayer can make happen (if you believe) (http://www.religioustolerance.org/med_bibl.htm ) , but it doesn't explicitly state that if you want those things to happen you should only pray and not do anything else (although I'm not sure what other possible conclusion I should draw from some verses). But neither does it say anywhere that you have to combine prayer with worldly efforts if you want those things to happen.

Then again I haven't read the whole thing yet. Some people claim that this verse : 1 Timothy 5:23: "Be no longer a drinker of water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." , is proof that the bible says christians shouldn't rely on prayer alone.

Anyway, do let me know when you find these "core tenents of Christianity". Any luck on that christian forum ?

Really? So alcoholics anonymous doesn't advocate keeping out of settings where the recoveries are pressured to drink, and not to have liquor in their houses etc..? They don't advocate having a sponsor to keep tabs on them, and etc...? They don't support and endorses these "natural" means to deal with drinking problems?

Can you support your claims, with what AA actually claims on their sites or other official statements they've given?

Ah yes, how  I love the moving of goal post. Here's what you originally claimed:  "They tell people that their drinking problems can only be solved through supernatural means"

Well, if that's what AA advocates, than you'll have a whole lot of explaining to do, when the stats bare that AA results are equal to or greater than secular alternative organizations, at half the cost. Thats some effective supernatural means don't you?

The truth is, that AA doesn't refute my claim it supports mines, and refutes the others here who disagree. There are 12 steps program, one of which says the acceptance of a higher power for strength. And not what you interpreted as "drinking problems can only be solved through supernatural means".

I wish I knew.

But, you agree that the Bible holds authority on what Christians should do? All "core tenets" of Christianity should be derived from the Bible; otherwise, they're worthless?

Or, is appealing to the majority good enough?

Well, drawing the conclusion you do would be entirely ignorant on your part. 

You know why you don't find verses distinguishing secular efforts, for Godly efforts? Because prior to perhaps 50 or years, you don't have such distinctions. A theist who feeds the poor, is not an act void of God, but rather an act in which God acted through him.

All of us are familiar with the dinner prayer where the family gives thanks to God for the food in front of them, even though the food was made by the mother. No one is arguing the mom made it and not god, because the meaning of the prayer is gratefulness directed at the capacity to do so in the first place. 

So getting healed by natural means, by non-supernatural means, is not an act outside of God, or outside his will, or contrary to it, but a part of it as well. Since in the christian view, or an omnipotent creator, God gave us the material for medicines, and capacity to create treatments, and the opportunities that allow for their availability. 

No where does the bible support the waiting on supernatural means alone, or a disregard for preparation, or our god given resourcefulness. Paul says to his community, if you refuse to work you do not eat, so much for individuals who thought they could pray for food, and forgo working for it. And this is plainly evident in the practices of the dominant, and significant christian communities past and present. 

Modern medical care, hospitals, and etc.. have all been founded by Christianity, it was the churches that produced these facilities, that have only recently been taken over as secular facilities. No where in the history of Christianity is there a significant hostility towards medical care, or treatment (other than in cases where the morality of a treatment is in question), that's a fact. And it takes someone rather ignorant to argue otherwise. 

Here is an example of a lot of hospitals being founded explicitly by non-religious institutions - it is in that Godless nation of the UK, so I know it doesn't count. But it does make interesting reading to realize that theTwelves's perspective on this is extremely selective/ignorant/biased...

I hope the link holds up.

It is from "Medicine in the making of modern Britain, 1700-1920, by Christopher Lawrence", on Google Books.

Could be, but since I don't believe, that doesn't really matter. Now someone who believes and draws that conclusion, yeah, I call those people ignorant too.

I am quite familiar with theists crediting god for, well, basically everything, including the positive effect of their and other people's worldly efforts. I really have no idea why you keep going on about that.

Okay, then what about that guy who turns the rain on and off with his prayers ?

Uhm, I believe the idea is you pray for miracles in times of extreme need ?

Sure, except for that segment of the christian community that believes in faith healing. Which is the bit I have a problem with. I really thought I mentioned that.

I don't know who you think you're arguing with, but it certainly isn't me. I merely mentioned I was going to enjoy telling a bunch of christians that they have their own religion wrong. From what you say here, I can only conclude that you agree with me, that christians who believe in faith healing have it wrong, so really, what are you even arguing about ?

Well, you can argue against "I know what you really mean" for as long as you like. You don't need me or anyone else for that.

But spare a thought for Cap's question, in it's latest incarnation.

Give her the answer she seeks. I'm sure it'll be good enough for her.

(Or if you don't like the question, just re-write it for her. I mean, you know what she really means, right ? )

 Teachings on prayer differ significantly by denomination, and even within them.  Evangelicals, fundamentalists, and other biblical literalists take Jesus' words very seriously when he says a believer can pray to literally move mountains, and with a little faith, mountains will move.

There's a fun little caveat that most churches add, with the intent of cutting down on the PS3 requests.  They say that when a "True Christian" (TM) is in touch with the "True Will of God" (TM), his desires -- a.k.a. things that he will want to pray for -- will only be things that coincide with the True Will of God.  And of course, God doesn't want people to want selfish things like PS3s.  

The implication is that God only grants wishes that coincide with what he wanted to do anyway, which ought to make us wonder why we pray in the first place... but that's another story.

To get at the heart of your question, yes, many, many Christians are taught -- and firmly believe -- that their prayers have the power to change reality.  Some churches teach prayer as the first best way to get something done.  Others teach prayer as a last resort when our own methods fail.  Still others teach that prayer is what we do when we need a miracle.

The bottom line, though, is that to some degree or another, most American Christians probably do believe that prayer is an effective and real way to affect change in the universe.  They just differ on what they believe prayer is good for changing.

I'll tell you the problem with your questions, and assumptions. You're not going to find much if any thing in the creedal statements of a denominations clarify for you the nature of prayer in regards to medical care. DO you understand why that is?

Because creedal statements like the Nicene creed, are composed in a context where those questions are relevant, they clarify things of concern, the define the position of the church in presence of conflicting views, or questions of the communities in which they are made. It's only when an issue is in question, or in conflict, that a church or a community of believers propose a creedal statement to address it.

Jesus is 100% man, and 100% God, is written in a context where this matter, where competing Christians sects held varying views, some denying Jesus' divinity, and others denying his humanity. 

The reason why you're not going to find a creedal statements, or any sort of official statement on the position of prayer and medical care, is because it's never been an issue for the early church, the present church, or any of the large denominations or sects of Christianity. There has never been a conflict between these parties about the nature of prayer, and the nature of medical care (this applies even to the Benny Hinn, faith healer crowds). 

After the First Council of Nicaea, the church ordered the construction of hospitals in every cathedral, and drove the unprecedented expansion of care, for the poor, the sick, widows, and strangers. This wasn't an endeavor the church took on from the pagan traditions of the time, but rather an endeavor unique to their own tradition and worldview. It wasn't securalism that gave manifestation to this endevour, but that took it on from the church begining around the 17th centuary, 

And what do you find totally absent in this endeavor of the church?--any sort of argument whatsoever about denying medical care, for the sake of prayer. No one was claiming "no hospitals shouldn't be built, all we need is more prayer. We don't need to tend to the sick, but just pray for their supernatural betterment." It's only if these sort of conflicts even existed, would the church form a creedal statement clarifying their position on the subject. 

The hospital building is not the sort of endeavor from the arrival of a worldview hostile to medical care, but rather the opposite, in a arrival of worldview that welcomes it as a religious mandate to tend to the poor and the sick. 

If you're looking for an answer to your question in creedal statement you're not going to find it, you'd have to find it in the practices of Christianity historically, and in the present, in the general body of Christianity, and in the varying but large denominations of them. Because the actual practices here reveal, the actual perspective of the church and it's followers in the question of prayer and medical care. 

Look-ee here in my post where  wrote: No where in the history of Christianity is there a significant hostility towards medical care, or treatment (other than in cases where the morality of a treatment is in question). 

The Curse of Eve has nothing to do with a supposed conflict between medical care, and the efficacy of prayer, it has nothing to do with prayer, or faith/supernatural/miraculous healing, or anything to do with the points being made and argued in this thread. 

It behooves you to learn negligible in what regard, and significant in what regard as well. You claim that you're not arguing about the dominant view of fundies, when this is exactly what I've been arguing for sometime. So if you heard something where I implied that the numbers where negligible, it's in regard to effects on what the dominant or prevalent view among fundie theist are on prayer and medical treatment.

It's like if I were to say, the prevalent view among a population of 100 millions liberals is that gay marriage should be legalized, if you were to point out two or three cases of liberals that don't favor gay marriage, this wouldn't be a refutation, because the number would be a small minority view, a negligible number. 

Now, while I'm using the terms negligible and significant to a quantitative sense, about what those numbers say about the views of a larger group, it seems your using them in sheer emotional sense. 

Such as the death of just one innocent child in a war is a significant loss. That sort of argument is aesthetic one, not a scientific argument to be made, as the individual who proclaims that the death of just one innocent child in a war is an insignificant loss, is no less wrong, as you are no less right.

If I'm assuming incorrectly about your continual harping on about the term "significance" I suggest you clarify in what sense you're applying it, and if you're arguing with me about what I'm implying with my usage, or creating a whole other side argument all together.

Yes, I did, and I suggest you think about in what regards I was implying the term "significant".

The OP's question ask what is the view of Christians, this sort of question doesn't imply what is the view of every single Christian, as it does about the dominant views of theist, the prevailing views, among their large sects. 

In the same sense that a person could ask, what is the Liberal view on the death penalty, or abortion, or gay marriage, is not asking what is the view of every single liberal (since there can be a minority of liberals who differ on these views), but the prevailing, and dominant view of the majority.

   Did you even read the article ?  So childbirth has a moral aspect and denying painkillers to birthing mothers based upon biblical POV does not constitute Christian "hostility towards medical care." ?

  OMG, you are one delusional Jesus Freak. 

       http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,534805,00.html

Well, since this topic is de-railed anyway, and I'm most likely not going to recieve any other Bible quotes, I might as well reveal the purpose of this topic.

It was about only applying logic halfway.

I saw the Christian Healthcare thread in which a video says that Christians, rather than do action to fix the healthcare syste, should just pray for it, that's what Christianity teaches right?

I've seen many atheist bloggers/heard many atheists IRL, say things such as "Well, Christian did X positive thing despite their beliefs, because they should have just prayed for X instead of took action!"

I was expecting Bible quotes saying this, as I don't like relying on anecdotes [X atheists/Christian says this]

Anyway, atheists saying this aren't applying the logic all the way.

For example, a Christians joins the Red Cross to end world suffering.

One can logically argue that if Christianity says that prayer is the best action, then the Christian is doing good despite his Christianity by taking action, since he should have just prayed for the end of suffering.

However, the logic shouldn't stop there.

It is equally logical to say that if Christianity says prayer is the best action, then the Christian who shot the abortion doctor to end abortion in this country, then he did so despite his Christianity by taking action, since he should have just prayed for the end of abortion.

Precisely the same logic, yet the atheists who accept the former, don't accept the latter.

That was what I was expecting.

But I got even more!

Look at Hamby's post.

Remember when him and I got into the fight and Francis Collins? Remember how he says Christians do X despite their Christianity?

Well, that's not really consistent with Christianity not having a common tenet is it? It's not consistent with churches withing the same denomination being different is it?

After all, how could they be doing an action despite X, if they were never taught X?

These quotes are sent to me from 3 friends that believe prayer works, and their family members sent a few as well.

In no particular order

Mark 11:22-24 Have faith in God," Jesus answered. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it, and it will be yours

Jeremiah 29:11-12 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to proper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you

Matthew 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Psalms 37:4 Delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart

Psalms 86:5-7 Thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee. In the day of my trouble I will call upon thee: for thou wilt answer me.

Matthew 7:7-8 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

John 14:13-14 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son ... If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it

Chronicles 7:14-15 If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place.

Mark 11:22-25 Have faith in God,' Jesus answered. 'I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, "Go, throw yourself into the sea," and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins

James 5:13-16 Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

John 5:14-15 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of him

There you go Capt. from a few christians that truly believe in prayer over action, and the quotes they use to justify their believes, one is Chistadelphian, one an Evangelist the other a hardcore missionary and baptist.