The Disclosure Project (National Press Club, 2001)
Offline The website is http://www.disclosureproject.org/ and the record of conference is in the media section.
I have seen the 2001's conference record. As far as I can tell as a foreigner, that place is really the National Press Club (the biggest hall there) and the people giving testimony in the project are real military officers or officials. But there are also scientists and astronauts involved.
This is where you might be interested, because you might know these names better than me. You won't find there guys speaking of chinese lanterns or meteorological balloons. They're the people who also were in charge of nuclear and conventional weapons for your country, so you'd better pay attention to them.
I hope there will be some sensible reaction from you. I personally didn't come up with this sooner because it took a long time to watch that film, read the author's book, and so on. Therefore, I have actually examined the project, before I had let you know. I expect the same from you, dear Americans.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
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Untrue. To be published in any journal your results have to be verifiable and your conclusions must be demonstrably correct. Neither of these is always obvious. It is also untrue that a non-obvious conclusion is false.
What do you mean by faked? Do you mean vitamin C can make it look like MMS doesn't work? Or that vitamin C will give you the same results as MMS? For the recorded, vitamin C is ascorbic acid. They are not different things. Ascorbic acid is a weak acid just like citric acid. You use citric acid to activat the MMS. Ascorbic acid would do the same. What on earth makes you thing that vitamin C will somehow neutralise MMS?
Yes, new things take time to come to the fore. It's hard to get PR. However there are rare circumstances in which something is so amazing that information of it explodes outwards. Is a cure to one of the biggest epidemics in recorded history sufficient to be world-shattering news? I wonder...
And I can give you pages and pages of people reporting miraculous healings using conventional medicine or people getting better without any medicine. What does that prove? Should we assume that anything can cure these ailments? Or should we be more discerning and determine which has a demonstrable success rate?
I'm willing to guarantee that a higher percentage of people have been shown to survive cancer and other ailments using standard medicine than have recovered from these ailments using nothing at all. I'd be very interested to see whether the numbers for MMS are better, worse, or the same as using nothing at all.
You know what? I'll hold my hands up here and admit I was wrong about light emission in the body. I wasn't aware of the biophoton phenomenon and I will gladly admit my arrogance in saying " there aren't any organisms inside your body that emit any other kind of light.". It's quite a fascinating little area once you start reading about it. (I'm going to ignore Kirlian's photography because that imagery is induced by an applied current and is not relevant to the discussion).
But.
Two buts in fact.
The first: cells can emit photons under a wide variety of conditions. These conditions include oxidative stress (a change in the generally reductive environment), the presence of reactive oxygen species, and catalysis by proteins to name a few. Biophotons can even, apparently, be produced by the ATP cycle. I have yet, however, to see anything that suggests every process produces photons at distinct wavelenghts. In other words, i've not seen any evidence to suggest that - without further information - you could tell from a photon where it came from. In other words a photon couldn't tell you if it came from "bad" or "good" bacteria, or pathogens, or proteins.
The second: Even if we can tell where a photon came from ClO2 cannot. It is not capable of absorbing photons outisde of a set absorption spectrum (if it can asborb any at all). So it has no mechanism for detecting biophotons.
In addition to this, cells are normally reductive atmospheres so increasing the level of oxidation is generally a bad thing. ClO2 is claimed to be an oxidising agent. See where I'm going with this? It's presence could cause oxidative stress and make you sick. I know that you'll then be coming back to tell me that reactive oxygen species (or ROS) can be produced by biological systems in response to pathogenic invasion. I've just read a couple of papers on that and I think it's where the skeleton of this MMS theory comes from. ROS appear in response to infection, ClO2 could be classed as a ROS, therefore ClO2 is good. What that still doesn't cover is the mechanism of travel. ROS are normally produced within cells to shore up defenses. i've yet to see how ClO2 gets into appropriate cells without reacting with anything else first.
ROS are also dangerous to have around DNA and RNA. They're potentially destructive and mutagenic.
Am i going to have to repeat myself? Not all pathogens have the same structure. So they don't have the same rotational/vibrational spectrum. Plus they're not large enough to have the sort of macro properties we assign to things like crystal and wood. There isn't a specific frequency at which these small molecules resonate. Even if you could produce a vibration that would destroy the bonds of these molecules, you'd do the same damage to perfectly healthy, useful cells. The Zapper is nonsense.
But we can do it today. What's your point?
Please explain to me how you would produce a drug - natural or otherwise - that is side-effect free.
Please explain the process by which you would know that the substance in question will not have chronic health effects 10 years down the line.
Please explain the biological understanding of the human body that you or anyone else has that would allow you to guarantee a perfectly healthy treatment.
You're pitching this as if Pharmaceutical companies deliberately produce bad drugs. This is not true. Pharmaceutical companies produce the best drugs they can to help ailments. No-one ever says they are perfect. No-one is ever dumb enough to make that claim. Even aspirin, the mother of "side-effect free" drugs, carries some side-effects.
Many drugs have to go through 5 to 10 years worth of legal process just to be licensed for use. Even then you have absolutely no guarantee of anything ever being side effect free. BUT, if you can show after those 10 years that you're drug helps 87% of people get better while 0.01% suffer unintended side effects the drug is still a success.
You have to do better than "reputedly". Show me the evidence that a chemotherapy cocktail is a herbicide. I will not accept "I heard that...", "Allegedly.." or "Reputedly" as acceptable parts of debate.
Wrong again. A tumour is both a a symptom and the problem. A tumour is caused, generally, by abnormal growth of cells. A malignant tumour is one which is capapble of uncontrolled growth, invasion of other cells and metastasis. Malignant tumours are problems. If they are not removed or treated they will do you harm.
You have yet to show any evidence that medicine does more harm than good, or that there is a cycle of repressed symptoms and rebranded disease. Provide this evidence or your above statements are empty and meaningless.
For a start, the market does not "do" anything. The market is a tool that allows commerce and enables others to trade man hours and make profit. Secondly, the pharmaceutical market does not exist in vacuum. A market in vacuum has no ethics. A market in the real world does. There are independent bodies, regulations, governments and laws in place which monitor these companies to make sure that they are not profiteering. Thirdly, the rich-poor gap and environmentalism have nothing to do with the argument at hand so please try to avoid going off on an anti-capitalist rant.
We invented capitalism son. Don't try to lecture me on it.
Which is what i said. The organism is the sum of its parts. What point are you making?
I've already covered the oxidisng thing above.
Please link or point me in the direction of the results of these laboratory tests.
Please explain the mechanism whereby parasites turn into spores - or something like that - to defend themselves against ClO2
Please explain how ClO2 stimulates the immune system into removing bacteria when it is not connected to the signalling processes of the body.
Healing a wound in several days? This is new. How does the ClO2 heal a wound?
I won't believe this last statement until you've provided evidence for the mechanisms and results you've outlined above.
you've still not convinced me that this well feeling isn't a placebo. The placebo effect isn't fully understood but, in essence, we do know that people can wish themselves better. As a sample group of one I can't be convinced that you're not suffering a placebo, especially when your father has had such a different reaction.
I thought vitamin C was bad for this process? (see above for this)
Exactly. Practice will always trump theory. Why? Because practice provides evidence and reproducibility. Both of which seem in scant supply in regards to MMS.
You're missing the point. A new idea, technical prospect or theory - regardless how vague it sounds - should still be reasonably explainable from the beginning. Lets look at one of my fields of study that you've brought up previously. Photocatalysis never used to exist as a subject. Men could observe that things happened faster when light was shone on certain materials. This was an unfamiliar concept. The hand-waving vague phrase you could come up with would be along the lines of "The light somehow changes one of the materials and makes it into a catalyst". That doesn't really explain anything - it's a vague statement - but we know enough about catalysis, the reactions in question and the nature of light (such as the photo-electric effect) to study this vague notion and determine its truth.
The problem in esoterics is that you don't just introduce 1 new concept, you introduce hundreds at a time. Every statement is backed with vague, undescript theory. The further back into the theory you go the more you find that it's supported by concepts that don't mean anything or haven't been proven. There's no bedrock to it at all.
Why should something be open to study when you don't even have a starting point. Go back to the start, show me the foundational principles of "resonant forms" or multi-vibrational esoteric planes or "occult meditation". If you can show me a solid bed-rock I'll say "Gentlemen, start your engines..." and happily wave on constructive inqury.
I'm not saying that phenomena should be ignored because there isn't a good hypothesis. You should find a hypothesis that fits the phenomenon and test it. If it passes many tests you eventually get a theory.
What I was trying to say was:
1. Esoterics doesn't provide testable hypotheses so it's a non starter. I can't study what I can't test.
2. In our specific case of MMS and ClO2, you've not accurately shown that there is a phenomenon in the first place. Why should I study a hypothesis of mechanism when I don't know if there's anything to study?
I don't understand this private domain thing you've got going. People who state things in the public domain (in science) are opening themselves up for scrutiny. That's kind of the point of it all. Science is always looking at and testing heretical alternatives, that's how theories gain strength.
I'm not even going to entertain your phone tapping shenanigans. You live under the constant delusion that somehow there's a NWO listening to your phone callse because you believe in the electric sun and homeopathy. Trust me when i say this - no-one's scared of you. You're not worth monitoring.
But I've looked for that quote and I can't find it anywhere. Unless you can point me to where it is quoted how can I believe it?
Oh, and did you hear that snapping sound? It was my jaw breaking with the yawn you produced mentioning the theistic Einstein. That's been covered to death on this board and others. Out of context quote-mining doesn't achieve anything.
Again with the personal anecdotes. Was this pure aspartame? No. it was aspartame in other products? How was the dose controlled? How was the experiment controlled to ensure aspartame wasn't the only variable? How do you know it wasn't something else, or a combination of things, in those products that made you ill?
Yeah... The Czech Republic isn't in Australia, New Zealand or the US so I'm not surprised you've not seen a change yet.
I'd now like to make a comment as a general aside.
You seem to belong to a group of people that somehow think that the chemicals produced by man are more harmful than they are good. That natural remedies are better. I'd like to tell you something. Natural remedies are chemicals too. Water is a chemical for fuck sake. Your body has no way of distinguishing between "natural" and man-made chemicals. It treats everything the same way - does it fit? can I use it? is it harmful or not?
Oh God. I really don't have the energy to start up on another topic so I'm going to ignore all this just now.
Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss
As for scientists, I know about one, working currently in LA in neurologic research. Hobbies of that person are kriya yoga and lone mountain climbing. Besides that, there are practical physicians sympathizing with our activities. But I will not publish their identity precisely for the reason to not rob their credibility. Furthermore, we have some people with university degrees among us. (masters/engineers...) And why not? We're quite different from the woo-woo crowd, there is little of emotional involvement in what we're doing and a lot of duties and study. All that done besides taking care of families, housekeeping and our daily jobs.
You are correct in that sense, that if we, students and practitioners of esotericism could do anything, we would do it. And so we do. Esotericism is involved with all areas of life. You may think that the last thing we really did was putting a pyramid with eye on dollar. Usually, we work to improve the quality of life, ours and of other people who found themselves overgrowing the general society. This includes healing physical and emotional through various methods and therapies, finding out a personal life purpose (if it's lost), meditation, study, and more, even some public activism, like charity or petitions against violence in TV...
I feel confident enough to provide a small, but practical esoteric prediction. In the time of Soviet Revolution there was a constellation of Uranus in Aries. Uranus, the archetype of revolutionary, in the area of Aries, the archetype of a fighter. And so, violent revolution took place. The same constellation is expected from the New Year for half a year 2010, but it's effect will be present in a different way, on the level of global emotions and hopefully also cultural structures. (like banks) This is why I say, after the New Year, there is a good chance that something unexpected and radical will happen. So far, we had good and relatively calm times, but that's ending. I have withdrawn most of my money from a bank, just to be sure. I can't know what exactly will happen, but I advise to be very careful next year and certainly you shouldn't gamble on a stock market. For the second half of 2010, Uranus will return to Pisces, where it was for last 7 years, causing literally "revolution in spirituality" and filling New Age book stores. Then it will finally return to Aries for 7 years and god help us.
What puzzles me greatly, is the obvious impossibility of everyone to prove that scientifically. I really can't wrap my mind around that. If the woo-woo is true, and scientific tests are also true, then why one doesn't support another? There is no possible logical outcome, unless... You know, we know there are faked elections, faked news, faked court charges, faked crimes and so on. If all that may sometimes be faked, so why can't a scientific test be faked? Just try to think in my situation, is there any other possibility? It doesn't even have to be a forgery, it can just as well be a certain sub-conscious bias or too stressing environment at the tests, I don't know. But something there must be wrong, otherwise it wouldn't be as it is. Maybe this is the same kind of fallacy as saying "if it would be true, somebody would already prove it." Really, it's like a position warfare.
What's the best I could do? Well, perhaps meet together personally, grab your arms, and pour as much vital energy or qi into you as I can. If your head will spin, or something like that, then congratulations, you've just been given a proof of the supernatural. If everything goes well, there will be one more first-hand experience, one more unsupported testimony.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Again, if something is true and reproducible you can 'prove' it without personal experience, full stop. I've never seen an oxygen molecule, but I believe in them. According to you, we are surrounded by woo, or astral stuff, or whatever. So come up with a reasonable hypothesis that explains reality and offers predictions that can be tested. Easy, if even one percent of what you talk about is real.
Michaels point on this is right on. Your 'Laws' are made up and have no foundation. Again, you are consistent only because you designed a system of belief that accepts any input as correct, simply with a hut reaction.
*Really*? The best you can do is say, in the next year, some sort of upheaval will happen to a planet full of 6 billion people? Pardon me if I am not startled. But I already know how this will work...if the stock market crashes again (which some economists predict without woo), you'll say you are right. If it does not crash, you will point to 'X' random, horrific event as justification for your prediction, like a new war, an assassination, natural disaster, etc . For you saying something like that is a win-win, because it will come true no matter what because your parameters are so vague. I would gain far superior results by relying on economists and political scientists.
You said you had moved a pencil with your mind, no take backs.
If you say the government can keep woo covered up for ages, or the pharma companies can sit on a cancer cure, why couldn't a woo master fool gullible people for a long time? Double standards, that's how.
Then go to your local university and start some recorded tests! You seem to ignore the possibility that you might be delusional. That is far more likely than government conspiracy or hide-and-seek woo powers.
I'm not upset with you at all.
A verified woo master (even a slight one) could change the entire world with one valid double blind study. It is a cop-out to claim you have better things to do.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
If you want the theory, sure, here it is. It's an introductory book of the theory that underlies all human experience, this is why the whole theory is pretty big. Alternatively, there is a book of a similar name by Annie Besant, which is structured as a normal book, not as an interview. Perhaps it's better for a regular study and when I had read it in the printed form in my language it was very interesting. So I recommend this online version, hoping that it meets it's qualities. If you want some more detailed and technical description, read books like Treatise on Cosmic fire, by Alice A. Bailey, but they're really diffcult to read without introductory books.
I have to notice you about something. This theory has much broader scope than the contemporary science, because it is intended to unify all human experience, including religions or so-called paranormal phenomena. This is why it necessarily will use many terms which do not yet have their scientific counterparts, or already have various cultural connotations. Please take them all as technical terms.
Furthermore, you should notice that the esoteric teachings do not lure followers by offering a vague, emotionally stimulating texts. The books really written by masters of the subject are structured as a textbook and not even a sentence is used without meaning. The amount of information per page is therefore large and requires a constant attention and good intuition. And perhaps the most impressive thing about them is the foreword, which systematically refuses any attempts for belief, worship or adoration of the subject and the author, and encourages the reader to use his or her free will, intellect and intuition, even if it would mean to refuse everything. Such a foreword can be for example found in the Letters of Occult meditation by AAB.
I did once see a case of telekinesis, but that was rather a spontaneous materialization of a spoken wish, nothing intended. It was also many years ago when I was a child and it never repeated. Besides this one case, I have only moved the psi-wheel ocassionally and not really quickly. Those who moved items like the pencil are the people from http://psipog.net , who documented it in their videos. They're the real artists.
Of course, I'll need at least one assistant, with whom I will search for a testable method... And I'll need to find out a way how to stay anonymous regardless of the result. I want to work in a public administration and my future voters don't need to know about my hobby. (unless of course it will become a public knowledge by that time)
As for me being delusional, that's theoretically possible, but irrelevant. The events I base my reality on were in some cases objectively observed, seen by more people at once, not just me. Also, there is no detectable cause of delusion, I am naturaly sensitive to the lowest (etheric) aspects of the subtle realm since the earliest age I remember. This kind of perception is not uncommon among practitioners of alternative medicine, meditating groups, martial arts practitioners, and so on. There is no evidence that this is a pathologic phenomenon, qute opposite. It's useful for some activities, like meditation.
And yes, technically I've got better things to do. I doubt that any greater changes will occur before the beginning of global transformation, starting with the crash of stock markets, which still expects us. Therefore, politics, ecology and economy are the priorities. The subtle realms can wait for a while.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
1) You don't have to come up with the god particle/equation to have a valid theory. I'm not interested in reading three books full of nonsensical stuff just so I can understand a nonsensical bookt. Look at Newtons laws...they do not provide a unifying theory of the universe, but they are simple, easily understood by a lay-person, they are testable, make predictions, etc. They aren't prefect but I did not ask for that. In the history of human kind, woo has not produced anything that has a similar utility, or any utility at all that I can see. If astrology (for example) had any utility then they would be teaching astrological economics at Harvard, even if only a select few could grasp it. Or heck, even 1+1=2...something that simple might even give me what I am asking for if the terms were rational (not "Astral waves produce Gorkfan vibrations".
2) Complexity and passion have nothing to do with truth. I can write a textbook about unicorns that sounds totally academic but contains nothing but hot air.
3) Again, your prediction is incredibally nebulous. The markets have been in total turmoil for a while now, predicting more of the same is not esoteric knowledge. If you are predicting *total* collapse of all listed systems in the United states then fine, that is a semi-valid prediction. My only problem with that is you can walk down the street in any city in America and see people prophesizing doom...that is a constant. I imagine there was some person in NY on 9/11 holding a sign that said everyone is going to die. He may have felt justified after the attacks. But what about the other 364 days that year he held the same sign with no horrific events?
4) You are right, my mistake. You claimed telekineses in the Heron's Beard discussion, but did not specifically mention a pencil...the pencil was some psi group that had videos online. Now you seem to say the telekineses refers to psi-wheels.
5) If you can't see the illogic in the way you rationalize your conspiracies, there isn't anything I can say.
6) Call your local institutions. I am sure some college grad somewhere is willing to do a study for a small paper. You should know though, they will need to be convinced by something more valid that new age lingo.
7) This would be a perfectly valid test. Find two people who claim they can detect woo, put a curtain between them and have them hit a button every time they send woo or receive woo. Do the study five times without ever letting them see each other...sometimes with the real woo people on both sides, sometimes with a control subject who clicks the button randomly, and perhaps an empty chair. I am sure the results will be fascinating (hint, people have done these studies before).
And this global transformation will happen...you are probably not sure. Soon! But maybe not soon. But soon!
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Eh.... So I have finished that, finally. This is getting a bit overwhelming, but still, I enjoy the challenge. I had to gather a lot of data and also learn something for school exams expecting me, this is why it took so long. Mellestad will have to wait for the next time.
Surprisingly, natural vitamine C in fruit or vegetables does not have this effect. Either it's in too low concentration, or bound in some organic molecules.
By the way, there are people who sell diagnoses by Oberon and some of those who use MMS go there to check their results. I have to say, Oberon detects so many things in advance, so going there may be a little scary.
http://cancertutor.com/Cancer02/Chlorine_Dioxide.html
Rife built his theory on observation, which pahtogenic organism visibly exploded under which frequency, or at least lost it's ability to hide from the immunity system. There are literally hundreds of trillions of different frequencies, and according to Rife, each molecule has one with which it resonates. See for yourself: http://www.rifehealth.com/id2.html
My information is, that the zapper as people here have it (not the plasma resonator) is a weaker, "opposite" version of MMS. People say, that MMS doesn't get into cells, while zapper does, but zapper can't get to intestines, which MMS can. So it is recommended to use it together...
There is a forum of sick people, who share their experiences and try to heal themselves. Surprisingly, I saw on the forum as someone complained that the good, effective drugs are being removed from the market and replaced by the worse ones. Another rumor told by the sick people is, that it is lucrative to make drugs that just suppress symptoms for a time, or fix one thing but ruin something else. I recommend you to read this article, because it contains curious account of the cancer treatment. I don't have any further info on the herbicides as chemotherapy, but there is something about mustard gas, which was used as a weapon in WW1, WW2, and war with cancer patients.
I'd be surprised if that article contains anything unknown to you, so why do you still defend the bodysnatchers?
Anyway, the cause is not the tumour, not even bacteries or parasites. The cause is the physiologic environment. If the body is polluted, the immunity system becomes weak and the body becomes a suitable place for growth of various parasites, from the small ones, to big ones, which pollute the body even more. (and sometimes take a bite of it) This creates health problems, but our society demands productivity. People have to take pills, suppress the distress signals and go to work. As you know, the immunity system destroys what might become a cancer several times per day. So what happens if it's chronically weakened? A tumour. And you know what people do, they go to chemotherapy or radiotherapy, which finishes off what remained of the immunity system. I really wonder how anyone can survive this. And those who seek our the alternative medicine, are already pretty much all poisoned, irradiated, and almost dead, no wonder that the AM statistics are relatively low. So firstly of all, people should detoxify and become happy. Happy, non-poisoned people have a naturally strong immunity system and they live in naturally symbiosis with all sorts of bacteries. But we don't know how to be happy, we have all sorts of problems. The psychiatric methods obviously doesn't work, if people must attend there for years, talk on the confession couch, get their antidepressants and pay a hefty price. In this case I'd really recommend the modern humanistic astrology, mainly the one called Aquarian. Here, people only need to come once and their personal problems are solved, depending on their active participation.
Furthermore, think about all the painkillers so advertised in commercials, all pills on headache and so on. Aspirin, Panadol, et cetera. It's all just about suppressing symptoms, so people can go to work.
Secondly, this kind of economy is inevitably destructive and here is a study about it.
I managed to dig up something, finally.
http://www.upramene.cz/forum/files/test1_205.jpg
http://www.upramene.cz/forum/files/test2_896.jpg
http://www.upramene.cz/forum/files/test3_158.jpg
This is what is that man trying to cure with MMS. I hope I can find the test after MMS. Here is some complementary test:
http://www.upramene.cz/forum/files/chl1_893.jpg
http://www.upramene.cz/forum/files/chl2_184.jpg
The same person, intensely bleeding scratch, before and after bathing in MMS: (I hope the betterment is visible)
http://www.upramene.cz/forum/files/thumbs/t_montaz_728.jpg Then he describes a variety of his problems (like uncontrollable drooling in lying position, permanent runny nose, heartburn, and so on) 11 of them in total. One is caused by an accident, one viral problem still lasts, but other problems got significantly better and one disappeared totally. And finally, here are the test results after MMS:
http://www.upramene.cz/forum/files/testchl2_967.jpg
http://www.upramene.cz/forum/files/testmono2_174.jpg
If I read it correctly, there is a radical decrease of mononucleosis, and a slight decrease in chlamydia... However, the author himself has some doubts about this test, because the previous test was done in different measures and more values than the second one. And the second chlamydia test was not subscribed by the doctor. So either the missing subscription is an accident, or someone played with the results, because they were too unbelievable. (?)
- Exposition of live red blood cells to a small dose of oxidizer causes a change of oxyhemoglobine activity (Hb-O2) so they release more oxygen (O2) into body tissues.
- Hyperbaric oxidization ... effectively helps during a cure of majority of bacterial infections.
- It was discovered, that many oxidizers during ocassional inner usage in small doses act as a powerful immunity stimulators. (a similar effect has exposing the blood to ultraviolet light) These healing methods use a natural physiological mechanism, which forces the peripherial white cells to fast release of cytokines. These cytokines serve as a warning signal to multiply a cellular attack against pathogens, and at the same time, they suppress allergic reactions. (btw, this is why MMS shouldn't be given to people threatened by cytokine storm)
- Activated cells of immunity system naturally produce a powerful oxidizers. Namely, hydrogen peroxide, peroxynitrate (-OONO), joined product of superoxide (*OO-), radicals of dioxide nitrogen (*NO) and hypochlorous acid (HOCl), derived from sodium hypochlorite (NaClO).
- and one my own note... I never heard that someone would get a skin cancer from being treated by any commonly used oxidizing antiseptic, like potassium nitrate, peroxide, and so on.
I will also point you to the article about MMS2 which is basically the hypochlorous acid:
http://jimhumble.biz/biz-mms2intro.htm
The detoxication is very real, and so the betterment should also be real.
But the accounts of people who took it are definite, it does something. NaClO2 (25% solution) and citric acid are not so rare substances that you couldn't get them and see for yourself. In that case, don't go far away from a toilet.
If you want an evidence, then search for it
For a start, you need only one new concept. It is so-called "vibration rate" of everything, which acts as a fourth dimension of the universe. This is not only a temperature, it affects the orbitals of electrons and more, so it determines if the matter can collide, or if it just passes freely through everything of a different vibration rate. The so-called dark matter and energy are hot candidates on this concept of the universe, existing along the 4th dimension.
If you can understand this one concept, and apply it on everything you already know (the life, for example) then you can understand esotericism and what is it about. And then you can try to discover new states of matter, find technical solutions based on them, communicate with life forms composed of that matter, and heal the body by healing it's subtle counterparts. All that because you're a scientist. Don't be satisfied with complaining that it's vague, if it seems vague to you, then try to specify it, at least by asking constructive questions.
And I'm asked, "Where's the evidence?"
I reply, "It's gone, it's not like that I can suspend a moment of the evidence. I've tested it positively for all the years, isn't that enough?"
"Well, but for all that time I was somewhere else, I wasn't looking. As far as I'm concerned, it's a hypothesis, the evidence is nowhere, and I'm not interested until it becomes a theory right in front of me or some scientist I can trust."
"Holy shit..."
You see, this is why it's important to do the first step of good will and learn something of the esotericism. If you'll see anything that can be tested then test it, (and consult me if something doesn't fit) but until then keep reading. Too bad that so many Americans have cars, they don't have reading time when they wait or ride by bus.
The scientific insight may be very useful here. Esotericism is today in the process of expressing itself in a modern way, using modern language and theories. In it's old form it's suitable for personal development, but the scientific understanding requires experts in both fields. For example, I'm just about to read a book by Jan Frank - Modern Astrology and Hermetism, vol. 1. This trilogy of books is meant not only to show the unity between various fields of alternative medicine, but also between the esotericism as such and science. Here, astrologic influences are expressed as 'vibrational energy fields'. It is also shown, how these energy fields determine human psychology and health state, and how they affect each other in various angles. Yes, angles between the energetic fields do have a great influence on their effects. There are many such an interesting technical details and I believe that only prejudice and complacency holds the two disciplines of studying each other with great interest and fascination.
By the way, esoterics does not always produce testable predictions for a simple reason. For example, esoterics says, "If you will keep this vice in character or behavior pattern, you will get a cancer, and probably of these and these organs." And logically, people change themselves, so the cancer will not show up. There is no testable result, but fortunately, also no cancer. Isn't that great?
But an opposite case is also frequent. I have observed that women who are oppressed in their relationships are likely to develop a vaginal cancer, and women who oppress others, a breast cancer. But I'd like to compare that with some statistics.
In almost all cases MMS caused a significant response after ingestion for the first time. You can't drink a harsh chemical like that, thinking that nothing will happen. So there is a lot to study, of course not among those who already underwent the therapy, they're already purified.
It's like an underground science community, unfinanced but free and enthusiastic.
Furthermore, there are scandals that show again and again, that government and medicine can not be trusted, when it comes to money. For example, my government bought 1 million doses of vaccine against the swine flu, which may be compulsory for all state employees. But the vaccine possibly contains a dangerous nanoparticles and there are already some deaths and side effects. (Sweden) This is an obvious example of the influence of pharmaceutic lobby on governments. It's a trade with fear.
Even if the vaccine does not contain nanoparticles, it still contains mercury and squalene (which may cause autoimmunity reaction), and there never was enough time to test it. The test is happening now, and people gladly pay to become laboratory mice for GlaxoSmithKline. I'd rather get the swine flu and then cure myself with MMS, than pay for corporate poisons.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Excuse me, but people read books full of nonsensical stuff all the time, so why this should be any different? Just imagine that it's some sort of science fiction, fantasy, or something, and read for fun. Even fiction must be read in correct order of the story volumes.
The esoteric theory promises a lot, for example full understanding of why everything happens (the universe, sense of life, and so on) and at the very least, you will understand why and how all the woo-woo practitioners do what they do. Really, the common philosophy compared to that is BORING and trivial. Some local philosophic debates (no offense, UbuntuAnyone) are just beating a dead horse and in a very tedious way. When you already have a valid theory, which the esotericism is, you can skip this phase of defining entity A, state of existence B, state of non-existence C, and so on. It's already defined.
But as for making predictions, you'd have to ask some specific question, it's diffcult to pick something from that vast amount of data in my head. You know, the memory is accessed by keywords, not in any linear order. I don't have prepared a lot of comments to begin with. Give me a starting point.
I think that questioning the nature of our own society is something similar as becoming atheist in a religious community.
Anyway, I have to laugh every time psychic abilities are tested statistically. Rare phenomena like that aren't spread among the population, they're less or more concentrated in relatively few individuals. I can personally hope that my abilities will increase during my lifetime. If I'm so able when I'm young, then in my 40's I can be really good. For example, my mother originally wasn't occultly sensitive, but through years of meditation, vegetarianism and working conferences she developed clairvoyant senses that are in some respects superior to mine. (I said working conferences, because they're so boring, that she had a plenty of time to train aura vision on her colleagues sitting around the table
Really, we're such a people who need to work and live just like everyone else, we can't sit in a cave and train telepathy, telekinesis, or whatever. Our modest psychic ability makes the life more interesting, but it's only one of many other, currently more important abilities, that a human being must learn. People who live today should rather work for the correction of global disorder, than for researching abilities that could make the science able to create more devastating weapons.
There are certain signs of change, but I'm not omniscient and I don't know what and when. But my information is, that several years in the future would be too late. Great things should begin much before the feared date of 2012. We should expect it much sooner than that.
What exactly do I expect? I expect a charismatic, but previously unknown man who will appear in some small American TV and will speak about the need to create a world with more justice and freedom. This opinion will become gradually more and more popular among people and bigger media will invite this man to increase their viewer rates. This is how the information will get to me and to the rest of the world. That's all, for the beginning.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Simple solution to that, Luminon.
If you wanted people to take your theory seriously, why didn't you write down:
1. What the test was
2. What the results were
3. Any controls used
You know, scientific information that could be used by others to evaluate your theory.
What you did was, "Hey I tried it. It works for me and I think it worked for some others. It must work for everyone."
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
For starters, your stomach is a reducing environment (it's acidic). So why doesn't your stomach negate the effect of ClO2?
You also keep mentioning the Herxheimer reaction. It's not something I know a lot about but my understanding is thus - the Herxheimer reaction is the noted worsening in condition of a diseased patient when treated with antibiotics. The body can't process the toxins generated by the treatment quickly enough and so there is an adverse reaction. Is this correct? Furthermore it is also my understanding that the Herxheimer reaction is most commonly found with several diseases. I'm not entirely sure it's correct to use the phrase when talking about detox in general or when ingesting something makes you feel ill. Did you just feel sick after trying this? Or was it a worsening of existing conditions?
This doesn't scan for me. Fruits contain quite high levels of vitamins C (70% of your daily dose in one orange if I remember correctly). The second "bound in some organic molecules" is extremely hand wavy.
I'd never ask you to do that. My point was that if the MMS had the success rate you claim in treating AIDS then we would have heard about it. There is no denying this. AIDS is one of the biggest epidemics in the world. The numbers you've quoted suggest this is an out-and-out cure. If that were true we'd hear about it. We haven't heard about it. My "wondering" was to imply that maybe the numbers you're relying on aren't as accurate as you think.
Secondy, just to be picky, AIDS is not something you'd inject. HIV is the viral infection that can lead to AIDS.
Not only that, but in this study the patients are not asked to give up their conventional treatments either so there's not way of knowing what helped the positive stories. When 87% of your patients report no positive effect and two of them have died (the same number that said it made them better) you can't really conclude anything. (I would say it's a poor treatment but the low response rate and lack of controls means I have to be fairer than that).
Relatively few health risks? Really? So ClO2 has never been linked with lung disease, genotoxicity concerns, , or clear toxic effects?
In fact, there are worries that the reactions of ClO2 with bacteria etc. can be carcinogenic. Sure. No health risk.
And actually people can build up a resistance to toxins. It's kind of how your immune system works.
But again there's no evidence for Rife's claim. None of the devices made today are related to his original works and his results have never been reproduce. At the risk of repeating myself, reproducibility is the hallmark of something that is true.
Wait, so can MMS get into the cells or not? All through this conversation you've been telling me about it's effect on blood-borne pathogens and sick cells and now you're telling me it just gets into the intestines? Which is it?
But you've still not answered my question. How can you guarantee that a medicine is not side effect free until it has been used? How can you know it won't cause problems 20 years down the line until it's been used for 20 years? Side-effects of any treatment are unavoidable.
And again you haven't answered the question. How can you guarantee that these psychotherapies or detoxifications won't do any harm? Your current favourite off MMS - ClO2 might produce carcinogens after all...
You really have no idea do you? When a pharmaceutical trial is conducted all the patients and associated docters are asked about the experiences. Anything that happens to individuals during the trial that can't be attributed to anything else has to be listed as a possible side-effect. Even if that side-effect might only affect 0.01% of the people.
To say side effects are expected is not to shrug the shoulders and say "Hey, at least we're trying!". It's a statement of recognition that not everyone reacts in the same way. There is no way to completely get rid of side effects. The best you can do with any treatment is to make sure it helps the majority of people and that the side effects are statistically low.
And that's just standard medicine. You get side effects in alternative medicine too. Your MMS makes you feel nauseous and sick, perhaps causing a Herxheimer reaction. Isn't that a side-effect?
All any of these stories and rumours suggest (not prove) on these health forums is that the individuals involved got better. It may have happened when they changed a routine but that is no guarantee that it was their chosen remedy that helped them. As I've already stated, people get better all the time without taking any medicines - alternative or otherwise. Should I take their word for it and stop using medicine altogether?
I think about 15% of cancers can be related to bacterial or viral infection. So that doesn't account for the remaining 85%. I'll check those numbers.
So the cause isn't bacteria or parasites. It's pollutants? These pollutants weaken the body and allow parasites in....which pollute the body more? So parasites are pollutants? But you said they're not the cause.... So are parasites the cause of disease or not?
Are these toxins the same as the pollutants? What are these toxins and how do you remove them? Detox and detoxification have become these very vague words that don't need explanation and I don't like that. You've got something wrong? You need to detox... Really? How do you know this?
And psychiatric methods don't work? But you asked us to use psychotherapy to help earlier on...
I got as far as him talking about the invention of a wonder drug called insulin and turned off. The man obviously has no clue.
That's pain, not disease.
Firstly, capitalism was invented by a Scot not the Americans. Secondly, I never said that the system couldn't be corrupted or put through immoral channels. My point was that these channels and corruptions can be avoided. You have this mentality of "Some capitalists are corrupt, therefore capitalism is corrupt, therefore anyone that makes a profit is evil" which is very, very poor logic.
My Czech friend isn't around at the moment so I can't really make hear or tail of the language on those documents. I'll ask him to have a look when he gets back. But if the author has doubts about the test, then I think I'll be prepared to doubt it as well.
You do realize that pleomorphism is an idea that has long since been abandoned don't you? Bacteria don't change structure during their life cycle.
All those points (and other articles I was able to find by Mr Hesselink) show is that oxidants are present and can be used by the immune system. I already admitted that when discussing oxidative stress and RSOs. That doesn't explain how ClO2 helps when it's not part of the body's normal communication channel, nor does it provide evidence for the ClO2 helping. Just because ozone and peroxide are produced inside cells to combat intruders it doesn't mean that a random oxidizing agent brought in externally will do the same thing.
Er... no.
I have no doubt in my mind that it might lead to several days on the toilet, and I might feel better for that, but that doesn't mean the solutions is making you better. It just means it upset your stomach.
I am searching for evidence. It's why I continue in this conversation with you. I'm only using sources and information you've provided and all have been found wanting. Not because of information and not because of any feeling of woo. It's because all the information you've provided has contradicted known Facts and been largely inconsistent.
I've been over this vibration thing with you a million times before. It's pure comic book. Matter cannot vibrate through matter. You can't phase by moving at a different vibrational level.
Also, please explain to me you're understanding of why matter collides. I'm interested, seeing as you mentioned electron orbitals.
Oh, and we have a 4th dimension. It's called time.
JCGadfly covered this one nicely
You've just described the environment of scientific publication. Why is it trustworthy with your private groups but not in general?
Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss
Your starting point is *anything*. I am begging for *anything* that makes sense and meets the very simple/necessary requirements I listed. If you ask me for an example of a scientific theory I don't have any trouble pulling them out of my head...gravity, conservation of energy, math formula, electrical resistance, anything about engineering, the periodic table, anything from chemistry....yadda-yadda.
Come on, don't start flaking out and avoiding simple questions.
Are you just pulling my leg now? Because it sounds like you have purposefully made the most vague, unfalsifiable and useless prediction in the history of woo. "Starting soon, there will be an incredibly long period in which lots of stuff will happen, but humanity will slowly improve."
I really can't think of anything to say that does not sound incredibly insulting.
!!!!
This would be a decent statement, if it was not immediately followed by, "And to make society better we have to integrate Globbluar deumons with the blue nikkopins and use the resulting cosmic eurocine to channel good vibes." This comes down to usefulness, again. You think happy thoughts and I'll go work in a soup kitchen, or work to reform economic law, and we will see who actually makes a difference in the real world. The Swedes seem to have a good handle on poverty, maybe they are more magical?
An excuse followed by a conspiracy theory. Par for the course I guess.
http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/jocn.2008.20009 and yes, just Google.
I never said this study had to be done with a random population sample, it just needs to be randomized so that a)it includes a random population sample for control b)it is randomized so the 'psychics' never know what is going on beyond the curtain.
This stuff is *so easy* to test for it takes an idiot like me thirty seconds to design a reasonable methodology.
So in one paragraph you talk about the weakness of woo-peoples abilities and in the next you talk about the earth shattering power of weaponizing it.
You know, another thing that this brings up is you always talk about "us" like there is some kind of woo-group code that makes everyone operate on the same page. This has come up with you before...just because you are not personally willing to help us gain a real understanding of your claims, if this stuff were reproducible *someone* would step forward. Unless you have a conspiracy theory about that too? Again, humans have been fascinated by this stuff for all of recorded history, and nothing has ever come of it.
And you predict this will happen sometime within the next 2000 years, and you make no claims to when, where, what kind of changes will be involved, nor the scope of the original event.....
Sigh
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
"Well, one special property of Rife's microscope was, that it showed that each kind of organism under monochromatic light radiates a unique light spectrum. So if each pathogen radiates on a different frequency, then it could resonate and be destroyed on a different frequency. It was observed under monochromatic light. Such a polarized light has some curious properties and rumors going around it, but I won't bother you with that now."
Sorry to butt in, but wouldn't that be easy to test? Just rig up a gizmo that cycles through frequencies and put a person in front of it?
Of course, if this really worked you would probably find out when the machine hit the frequency for skin cells. Messy.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Yeah... This was something I didn't include in my response (along with many others) because I was too lost for words at the time. I wanted to address what I thought were salient points and avoid things that were purely ignorance. However, in a bid to stave off a bizarre response I will give Luminon a small science lesson.
Dear Luminon.
So Rife discovered that irradiating things with monochromatic light caused them to emit a unique light spectrum. An outstanding discovery I'm sure. Except it was discovered (or at least coined) by George Stokes. Not Rife. It's called fluorescence. Stokes also highlighted the phenomenon of polarization which you mention... but more on that later.
[NB: For a lot of this particular rant I'll be swapping frequency and wavelength. They aren't the same thing but are mathematically related and people confuse them enough anyway)
Fluorescence works thusly: A species absorbs a high energy photon of light. Then, through the magic of science, it emits a lower energy photon. This emission is of visible light. [sarcasm]I suppose you could call it... wait... a SPECTRUM[/sarcasm]. Fluorescence is a common and easily understood thing and happens to occur with some bacteria.
What of the monochromatic light? Monochromatic light is light of one wavelength. Realistically it's a small cluster of wavelengths but we'll stick with one for now. Why use it for fluorescence? Two reasons:
1. A large percentage of the absorption that causes fluorescence is from Stokes would call "invisible radiation" i.e. UV light. If you allow UV light of wavelengths below 270nm to hit a living organism for any significant lenght of time it will - and I'm quoting Einstein here - Fuck Its Shit Up. So you want to limit the wavelengths you expose things to.
2. Every species capable of absorbing a photon of light has an absoprtion spectrum. That spectrum has a wavelength of maximum absorbance. It is absorption at that wavelength that causes the greatest amount of fluorescence. Explaining why will wast time so just trust me on this. This is the best wavelength so you stick your light source through a monochromator set to this wavelength and point it and your sample. Everything is glowing and groovy (using other wavelengths can also distort the emission spectrum, but that's a lesson for another day...)
And there you have it. From all the information you've given me it is easy to conclude that Rife's trick was very simple. He didn't have a magical, super-zooming microscope. He had a high quality microscope. He shone monochromatic light at a bacterium and it fluoresced. He used a complicated optical set-up to magnify this image (apparently using parabolic lenses) and thus could look at the bacterium. His optical magnification wasn't real but a clever technical side-step. Bravo to him.
So what of the unique spectrum of the bacteria? A visible light emission. Nothing to do with overall bond vibration or resonance frequencies and all to do with the movement of electrons and photons. What happens if you shine these frequencies of light onto these species? Nothing. Not a god damn thing. You make them look pretty by shining coloured light on them is about it. Even if they emit in the IR the same principle still applies. They emit at these frequencies. They don't absorb. Oh, and we do. So if these frequencies somehow had the ability to destroy biological species they'd kill us first.
Monochromatic light isn't polarized. Polarized light is polarized. Jesus dude, use google. It'd take you about 2 minutes.
Also Luminon - I met a woman that admitted that all the drugs being made by pharmaceutical companies in her particular field were there simply to alleviate symptoms, not cure the disease.
I bet that last statement made you giddy with joy. A corrupt, capitalist, corporate shill admitted the evil scheme.
Except...
She also admitted this was because no-one had been able to find a cure for the condition she's studying. The pharmaceutical companies see it as a better thing to try and alleviate the suffering than to not do anything if they don't have a cure. This woman thinks she has the cure for this conditon and is easily going to make her capitalist fortune... wait for it... curing people. And so will the big pharmaceutical company she sells it to.
Like them apples now?
Oh, and to stop this story being completely anecdotal. I can give you names, dates, contact details and (my favourite thing) evidence of everything I have just said. The only reason I haven't right now is for her own anonymity. She hasn't yet agreed to my discussing these things so I won't infringe on her privacy.
Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss
That is what I never understood, we already have devices that emit light that would harm a virus....lasers.
What we don't have is some device that magically shoots through the identical biological matter in between the gizmo and the virus and attacks only the virus. They are doing cool stuff with nanotech though, like dumping something in the bloodstream that attaches to a tumor, then shooting a person with a laser that interacts more violently with the coated material than the uncoated material. Score one for science I guess.
The reason you don't see many valid scientific studies about woo-shit versus standard medicine on fatal things like cancer is that no-one wants to fucking die.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Here's a list of special medicine you should try:
Aripiprazole (Abilify)
Clozapine (Clozaril)
Ziprasidone (Geodon)
Resperidone ( Risperdal)
Quetiapine (Seroquel)
Olanzapine (Zyprexa)
But you'll need a prescription
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
"There are no studies on cancer in humans exposed to
chlorine dioxide or chlorite. Based on inadequate information
in humans and in animals, the International Agency for
Research on Cancer (IARC) and the EPA have determined
that chlorine dioxide and sodium chlorite are not classifiable
as to human carcinogenicity."
( http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts160.pdf ) Furthermore, the dosage people take medicinally was commented by someone described as "almost homeopathic". Consider it, it's 1-30 drops of activated 25% NaClO2 per day. Of course, the effect depends on personal weight. But negative effects of ClO2 overdose were described as irritation of stomach, esophagus, and also problems with breathing (damage of red blood cells). Since nobody I know ever reported these effects, I conclude that there is no problem with toxicity of ClO2, only a possible overwhelming with the dead pathogens.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
This is meaningless. You need to predict something with it and test it. Use it to explain behavior in a repeatable experiment. Something that is not subjective like, "I can feel energy"...something observable to an impartial. Even if it is logically consistent internally (which it might be, because you have not really said anything) that is not enough. I listed out what I was asking for earlier.
A little better.
I imagine woo comes in at some point doesn't it? I have no objection to the non-woo parts, and if you are collectively doing something useful then great...but I think it would be better if you focused on that exclusively.
Fine, either find someone who *can* see auras, or list out what your abilities are and I can design an appropriate experiment around then, asuming your abilities manifest in a testable way.
So machines can interact with the 4th dimension? And if Atlantis existed, anything could have happened to it. Unless you felt a great disturbence in the force I don't see how you could have any actual information about that civilization.
You are missing my point. Unless you are claiming that every woo person is a member of your group my point stands. And people *do* come out of the closet, and they always seem to turn out to be frauds. Again, I would *love* it if someone could prove woo. I really, truely would. I am not hostile to the idea, but I am skeptical of claims made by people who never have the ability to show them in a controlled setting.
So what parts of those were effective because of woo? Chinese medicine is the result of trial and error, and much of it was/is pure placebo effect. Eating rhino horn doesn't make your penis larger, or make you more virile.
Awesome. What happens if this does not happen by, say, 2013? I bet I know what will happen. Nothing will change and your dates will be readjusted, or you will adjust the scale of your prediction. You have made some solid, verifiable predictions here. Excellent!
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
You know what... this thread is becoming rather clunky. I'm going to sit on my responses for the moment and allow Luminon and mellestad to have it out, if only to save my eyes. Once that conversation looks like it's going nowhere I'll jump back in.
Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss
The important thing also is, that Masters have made a prediction that did come true, and which proves a lot of what they say. They predicted through Benjamin Creme the appearance and still ongoing parade of the 'Star' objects on our skies. They promised the 'Star' and we got it. This is something that you can verify right now... (look for Share International media release december 2008) They earned the confidence of mine and of many people worldwide, I have no reason to doubt their another promise. According to my information, everything is going according to the plan and preparations are being made. The first interviews with my expected man will be modest, in regional media, but by time he will get such an audience, that the message will also get abroad and thereby to me. I hope Creme will notice everyone when the first interview was done, so I can start searching in media. I will certainly ask local Americans if they had seen someone suspicious in their local TV.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
We've officially hit comic book land.
This was actually very enlightening. The fact that you are willing to trust specific individuals so such a high degree explains your steadfast faith in woo. The fact that you also have a revelation like second coming event in your belief system also explains a lot.
I don't see any difference between what you are saying and what a typical fundamentalist Christian says, and your beliefs seem to be based on the same concepts. You'll say it is very different, but after a few thousand words of discussion with you your only two sources of enlightenment are personal experience and non-empirical sources like woo-books and woo-people who do not stand up to neutral observation.
Obviously theistic fundamentalism is a good platform to base a belief system on because it has a good historical track record. Unfortunately it has the same problems...it is not reproducible and it is so fluid that believers can accept anything as truth. Unfortunately, because of the way your belief system is built I cannot falsify it. You don't claim anything that can be disproved, you avoid situations that could falsify your belief and your predictions will simply change when they fail to materialize. When your Day of Declaration fails to happen, I really hope you don't drink Kool-aid. I'm not even joking, this kind of thing ends with people dead in a remote compound and I don't want to see that happen to you.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Why do I expect Maitreya to go away when Creme does?
If enough people buy into it the concept of Maitreya it/he might never go away. Christians have been waiting to Christ to return, "Any day now" for over two thousand years.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
You forget, Christianity has a fantastic PR machine. I hadn't heard of Maitreya or Creme till I met Luminon here.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
All they need is a Paul.
(Edit: I am not saying it will take off, but who would have guessed Scientology would have staying power?)
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
But getting the point across is very diffcult. At some point, your conviction takes over and instead of reading, you interpret the text according to your conviction, not according to what is written. Maybe every 10th word truly gets to your brain, if I'm optimistic. I have tried to write vaguely, so as long as you don't know exactly what is going on, you read without prejudice. But this is not effective. When I try to be effective and give you all the information, your brain gets closed completely, because your experience convinced you, that it's completely and totally pointless to spend a minute talking about them. For that case, you've got emergency programs of 'FUNDAMENTALIST ALERT' and 'BELIEF CONTAMINATION'. Everything that doesn't fit you must be based on blind faith, right? And where was your attention, when I have repeatedly stated that I act solely according to what I have seen and touched? You can only understand me through understanding of that statement. I don't mean accepting it, I mean understanding it hypothetically.
1) It seems so fluid, because you don't know anything about it. You don't know anything, because you refuse to learn. You refuse to learn, because you demand evidence. You demand evidence, but in fact, you demand it backupped by authority of official scientific institutions. This would be OK if I'd intend to convince you completely, but I don't. I only want you to consider a hypothetical possibility, without commitment. And to inspire you, perhaps.
2) Accepting anything as truth is not possible without evidence. We both know that. And we both know, that the way to reproducible evidence is long and diffcult, even in laboratory. Obviously, we're not here yet, so I expect a constructive approach, so maybe one day we will get to some universal evidence.
3) I offer a theory, that can explain the history and world without excessive denouncing of everything that doesn't fit into standard theories, as tales, legends, metaphors, mythology, and so on. I don't mean accepting them, I mean suggesting an alternative origin of such a records. By that history, I also mean contemporary and recent events.
4) I expect the Day of declaration because of real events that promise it. No matter when or if the DoD happens, these events will remain real. So what a scientist should do when a hypothesis fails? Try to find out why, revise it, and apply it again. Don't call it just changing of prediction.
5) I don't avoid situations that could disprove my belief, because I don't have a belief, and I don't avoid anything. I frequently attend available sessions that provide evidence to the attendants (like meditation sessions or meetings with clairvoyant people). You do no such a thing, so I could claim that you avoid situations that could disprove YOUR belief. But it's fair to say that we both have lack of opportunities to prove opposite.
6) Of course, as everywhere, I can't be 100% right, but you seem to ignore the case when predictions did materialize.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Dude, step back and listen to yourself. Your first argument is, "I'm right because I'm special, and I don't have to conform to standard proof tests". Why would your personal experience be more valid than anyone else's? That is the whole reason I need proof...if I listened to everyone who thought they had an inside track on reality I would have no ability to discern truth from fiction. People claim to have seen and touched things that are false *every day*. I cannot accept that bald assertion as evidence. The world simply cannot function that way. If I replaced all your crazy stuff with angels and Jesus it would fit in perfectly.
1. It is fluid, full stop. If it were not fluid you would be cape able of giving me some sort of woo-law or rules that can be the basis of a system of understanding. You have failed to do so every time I have asked. Your belief system is built on sand, there is no bedrock...and if there is you have not given it to me in a timeframe of months of conversation. I don't care about 'official' evidence, I demand neutral, repeatable testing of your extraordinary claims. I refuse to 'learn' because when I ask for your worldview you start listing off totally unverifiable stories. The scientific method is not difficult, especially when you are investigating phenomena that you claim every day humans can often manifest. You don't need a particle accelerator and a team of scientists to test woo...you just need a willingness to be honest.
2. 'You people' have had since the beginning of human history to give proof. What you claim is not new. If I give you the benefit of the doubt for another ten thousand years what can that possibly accomplish?
3. Atlantis, Aliens and guys from the Matrix??
4. Read what you just wrote. I am serious, go read it, I'll wait. Ok, ready? You just said, "I don't care if it never happens or if it does not turn out to be what I thought it was, I have total faith and so I will believe regardless of evidence."
5. You could prove it to me by showing empirical data. I can't disprove your theory because it is all based on internal feelings or word of mouth from sources you trust blindly.
6. You mean the camera phone images on that website?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
I'd like to give proof to everyone, but it's not that simple. First of all, it requires to meet personally. I can't send the woo all across the world, but hand in hand it might work and give you some strange feelings, like vertigo. I've done it once for a skeptical person and it worked. Not very convincing for bystanders, but we've got to start somehow. If you'll try a bit of Ctrl+F, you will find that I have asked something about brain scanning techniques. Hopefully I won't have to give a proof before being allowed to search for the proof.
I already gave you a concept of 4th dimension. It's a qualitative value, not spatial. It determines behavior of elementary particles. Every particle, including photon, has a specific configuration of electric and magnetic fields, that allows it to become mutually "material" to a particle of similar configuration. If this configuration is so different, that the ability of particle to collide with other particles is significantly diminished, then we could say, that this particle is higher on the 4th dimension scale. I can point you towards some heavily scientific literature, which allows me to claim the things about configuration of matter, because it has some advanced models of the particles.
But I would prefer if your questions would be much simplier, I'm not an expert on physics. And yes, we're still in a hypothesis building phase. The purpose is to discover a testable hypothesis. This is why I need your rational mind, you're obviously better in it. If you want some idea on what can you ask me about, you can flip a little through this book, for example.
As for aliens, if there is a 4th dimension, then there also must be life forms based on physical characteristics of the 4th dimension. They should be able to live in places, that are hostile to life in our phase of 4th dimension, but not in theirs. For example, planets with toxic or lacking atmosphere.
And guys from Matrix? Well, where do you think the idea of Matrix came from, in the first place?
As for some empirical data, I've been saving this for later, but is it enough? It was in local news.
http://www.ianlawton.com/cpl3.htm
But some videos are made by pretty good cameras, the one from Pasadena, for example. Even some of reporters from media noticed this phenomenon and published questions about it.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
*sigh*
I think I am willing to scrap this is non-productive now. If I had been here longer I probably wouldn't have gone down the rabbit hole with you, but I am not going to waste time explaining why the Matrix is a standard narrative, or make you explain how you know what happen to Atlantis, or how you even know it existed. And no, a story someone wrote about their toddlers past lives is not convincing, but again, I don't really want to go there. Feel free to make a new thread about it though, I might respond to that.
Start another thread when you have evidence of something. And no excuses about not understanding scientific method well enough to draft a neutral experiment or create a testable, reasonable hypothesis. If you have the time and money to dump on woo you can spare half an hour of Google to research test methodologies for whatever abilities you or one of your woo-friends can manifest.
Otherwise I guess I hope I keep in contact with you long enough to see what you do when the world still trundles along like it always has and the DoD does not manifest. Don't drink the Kool-Aid when nothing happens. And when Creme wants money to help the messiah arrive, don't give it to him.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
OK.
Btw, Creme never wanted money from people and don't worry, I wasn't born yesterday.
Thanks to uncle Google I finally understood what all these people meant by not drinking Kool-Aid. (you know, that suicidal cult) Again, don't worry, I learned a lot from my experience and from many other people's lifetime experiences. This is my field of expertise, my weaknesses are elsewhere.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
to see a long and complex argument between Luminon and a raging god botherer.
It would simply be a delight to watch Luminon unfold on an unfortunate traditional theist.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck