Yes he does, the "life/spirit force" is even more vaque than any gods, since most people who belive this can't really explain what the fuck their talking about.

I have a good friend I was just talking to tonight about this and I would really like it if a bunch of people weighed in, even if to just very briefly describe their views on this issue.  She'll read the thread soon.  I will remain out of it so as not to skew the results.

 I suppose it depends on how he defines spirit/life force.  It's a little more difficult to defy reality with a non-conscious spiritual entity because you're left without capricious consciousness to explain anomalies and inconsistencies in your worldview.

In other words, if someone points out an internal inconsistency in a theist's worldview, they can just say, "Well, it's God.  He can do whatever he wants."

With a spirit/life force, at least most of the ones Ive been told about, the spirit is somehow "tied" to humanity, or to life in general, and the presumption is that it follows some kind of unconscious "laws."

Having said that, I think that yes, there are ways in which atheist spiritualists defy reality checks.  Luminon is a great example.  He believes in whatever thing he believes in, and whatever psychological or physical explanation someone else gives him is insufficient because he can just bend his beliefs around his own vague and unfalsifiable definitions.

Just to complicate things, yes, I think pretty much everyone defies reality checks in some ways -- including materialist atheists.  The difference between the systems, however, is that theism actively encourages it, where materialism staunchly discourages it.  A materialist who is defying a reality check can be properly called out by other materialists, and if he continues to defy reality, his opinions will be disregarded.  Since there is no reality check in theism, it's just about how many people you can convince -- in any way that works best -- to believe you.

 

 

 

 

 

Here you go.

 

 

 

No and no to the first two questions.

 

Yes to people "feeling good" to believe it. Yes, I could see a situation where it would cause harm.

 

If the situation demands intervention, and due to a "karma" like belief they decide not to because "they will get what is coming to them anyway", inaction can lead to unfortunate results.

 

If they say this only for small matters, it may not lead to any harm. But if they believe it too deeply, making the person incredibly passive, it can cause issues to occur that otherwise would not.

 

For example, if you believe that someone's suffering is "deserved" or not.

 

Another example is Spiderman's story. He had an opportunity to stop a crime, and due to inaction caused his uncle's death. Now, that inaction was because of a dislike of the person being robbed, and that dislike led to a passiveness that "they will get what is coming to them". It can easily make people passive aggressive over things they would otherwise openly challenge.

 

Basically, it can cause someone to not do anything when they should. Why report a family to child services when "they will get what is coming to them"? Why do anything that will potentially harm someone in a world of karma, if they are continually harming someone else? Especially if doing so could put you at risk in the process!

 

 

 

I'm starving. If you will excuse me, I'm going to get some food because I'm sure I will become increasingly incoherent the longer I remain without. I hope I managed to make my point. I'll be back to fix this in a more stable state if I read it later and facepalm at my own lack of clarity. 

I do believe what goes around comes around, but certainly not in any mystical spiritual form.  I think it is obvious that in general if you do good things and treat people well, naturally most will do the same for you and you will reap the rewards of the good vibes you sent out.  But this is purely natural.  The same can be said for those who put out negative vibes, treat people badly you  will most likely reap what you sew in that regard as well.  But again this a purely natural phenomena.

 

This can be proven by the fact that bad things happen to good people, and vice versa.  The law of attraction is flawed by it naturalism, ytou can be the most ethical, great person in the world and still die of cancer or be hit by a bus before your 30.  So it is obvious that although the law certainly holds validity like a statistic does, like a statistic their are exceptions, or their would be no need for a statistic at all.  The concept of kharma is obvious to be, it surely does work in general but only by natural occurance and it is likely that even if you were perfectly good you would still endure hardship.

 

As to your secong topic if this is a harmful belief, well i dont really see how thinking doing good  to in the world most likely will bring good things to you is at all harmful.  These things are only harmful when people take them to far, like being avery good person and then thinking your invincible.  This ofcourse is dangerous, to you and those around you if your dilluted enough to think the kharma concept is %100 fact and flawless.    This world is simply to choatic in balance for this to be so.  I mean sure you could flip a coin a hundred times and statistically you should get 50/50 but rarely will you.  So even if you believe the worlds kharma is in a constant state of equalizing itslef, you must also believe it takes time to balance things, and as long as things are continuing to be thrown out of balance this equalization will never happen, so one must therefore even if believing in kharme assume that the law is flawed, and bad things will always happen to good people.

 

But i cant see how this can be too harmful, if someone does, please enlighten me.   

 

 

Apart from the general sense that a positive attitude/approach can help you get thru the day and get some good things done, but any talk of "getting back positive energy" is almost completely meaningless to me. 

No, in any general sense. Actions often have consequences, but there are two many examples of people responsible for a lot of nasty stuff having a far more pleasant life than the people they have wronged.

It was the blatantly obvious truth that this does not happen in 'this world' that lead most religions to insist that evil would eventually be punished in some supernatural way, usually in another life, such as in a Hell, or in another life back in this reality, by being re-incarnated in some miserable form.

It seems to make people feel better, but it is not necessarily harmless.

The case which most comes to mind to me is Cambodia, which I have visited, where it is arguable that the ability of the largely Buddhist population to retreat into contemplation or whatever, and shut out the nasty outside world, made it easier for Pol Pot to have his evil way with the country. 

 

Yes, and the proof of that is in the funniest MadTV skit EVER!

 

brilliant, bizaroland.  I want to go to their!!! 

Everyone has a right to see life in a way that makes sense to them.  We are being told what we should be, how we should be, what is right and wrong, sane and insane, good and bad. 

 

If people don't conform, they are branded...naughty, lazy, stupid, mad, bad, a disruptive influence, a danger to society...

Most submit, through fear, to another's design or are seething with anger and resentment with people who won't live their lives as they think they should. 

Everyone has a right to be or think differently and to respect everyone's right to that same freedom.

Perhaps our minds are evolving right in front of us to entertain the idea that there can be more than thinking and rationalizing which are confined to the physical realm.  Is it not possible to rationalize correctly and still come up with a wrong answer?

 

 

 

 

Ok folks, my friend Crazy-C has arrived, I'm staying out of it, but I'd love for someone to touch on this...

 

Play nice.

One can reason correctly and come to an incorrect conclusion if one or more of one's premises are flawed.

I'm living vicariously through Nigel right now.

 

I have a friend that believes much of what you just wrote here Brian. I will share experiences and what I have said to her:

I do not believe in positive energy as an actual 'manipulator of the atoms' causing a positive ripple of energy. I think that is utter bullshit to be quite blunt.

I will say, from the perspective of an eternal optimist (me), if a person approaches negative situations with a logical thought process and tries to find the solution and perceives a positive outcome, the chance of a good thing coming out of that situation goes up. But, not always~bad things happen no matter how we deal with them.

As far as what goes around, comes around... I was driving and someone came up from behind, speeding and driving erratically.   ~ my friend says "oh that guy is SO giving off some negative energy, he is going to pay for that: what goes around, comes around". To which I respond, 'bad driving habits cause accidents.' I don't believe there is some unseen energy that pulls a person toward reciprocation of a bad deed or this 'bad energy'. Only people making bad decision, after bad decision, after bad decision, which leads to a pattern of 'bad situations'.

I would say that people believing in this sort of thing is no different than believing in a god. The 'god' of whatever religion a person relates too has been replaced with this... 'energy god'. 

 

Karma doesn't work like that.

Pineapple, while "technically possible" strictly from a definition usage it is possible for atheists to not believe in god(s) but believe in other naked assertions. However, to me they might as well believe in a god if they are going to postulate other naked assertions.

I don't like the fact that the word "atheist" is only used for god(s). I would like to see it expand to all naked assertions.

Pineapple. Something that is real is definable and repeatable and falsifiable.

Buddhists are technically atheists, but the religion still uses superstitious rituals that are not rooted in anything but the same false placebos god worshipors fall for.

So to me Buddhists might as well believe in a disembodied being. They DO pray to a dead man as if he outlasted his body and is floating round the statues people pray to.

There are no "life/spirit forces". There are live species from trees to ants to humans. When they die, that is it. Any force beyond death is merely the rotting and the atoms going on to become part of something else.

Consciousness is not an independent process, it is an emergent process.

I thought you had given up on the consciousness motif? Others may be willing to assign atheist to you, but speaking for myself, if you believe in a "Life/spirit force" you might as well treat Star Wars as a documentary and Darth Vader as Satan and Obe Wan as God.

I think you still have some residual "warm fuzzies" that still have a hold on you.

What unconscious "laws"? These laws are simply the law of action and effect, law of resonance, analogy, and so on. People with common sense and good will often understand and practice them automatically, but people without that should realize the existence of these laws consciously.

What is an example of a reality check, according to you?
By the way, all approved "explanations" were not suitable. They were based on misinterpreting or censoring the events as it fits you. I'd have to ignore certain events and their aspects, which were in my opinion literally "reality checks". This is why I ask about your definition.

Usually yes, but not necessarily everywhere. For example, if I put a positive energy to help a country with an ongoing conflict, it will do no good. Such a place should be kept without any positive inflow of energy, so the conflict dies out from a lack of energy. It is necessary to know the causal relationships, or at least know when I don't know them.

Law of action and effect, resonance, analogy, applied on the non-mechanistic universe may do that.
But the cause and effect (KARMA) may exist over greater time than we can see, and it can be on national or even heredital level, not necessarily personal. It's not always simple, without a perfect causal awareness we can't see all the complex truth. Also, a lot of bad things happens not by that person's bad actions in past, but by deliberate action of someone else. Too good people may get hurt precisely because they oppose the forces of evil. They may also be very sick, because they choose to spend their karma more quickly than it naturally happens, because an excessive karma holds back the development of consciousness, and they need to speed it up. In rare cases, some Indian gurus may need to spend the karma of a student, (if he already understood the case of his karma) so guru suffers physically instead of the student. So nobody should underestimate the great complexity of the law of action and effect. There are many factors, circumstances and exceptions in this rule, as everywhere.

Certainly! Believing is  dangerous. People should take the important things as an intellectual possibility or a real experience. Not as a belief. Those who don't practice discernment will be sooner or later deceived, though not as you probably imagine. They will be deceived by a lie carefully mixed with truth, not that whole spirituality is a lie.
For example, what ClockCat thinks that is Karma, (inaction) is nonsense. Karma doesn't mean that we should do nothing, it means what situation we are confronted with, and it's up to us to manage it correctly and actively. This mistake of passivity is often done in eastern countries, it's a misunderstanding. If I'm born poor then my karma may be to be born poor, but not to stay poor! Someone should teach that all over India.

...theistic, irrational, deluded, hallucinating, I know

Sure. As it was said, logic is dependent on the data it uses as an input. If the data are incorrect or incomplete, (which we may not know) so is the outcome, no matter if the logical process was done correctly.

There is indeed a higher principle than rationalizing. It is characteristic by spontaneous correct knowledge of what could not be deduced from the lacking data. But it's non-mechanistic, unpredictable and dependent on human factor, this is why there is no contemporary scientific tool to study this phenomenon. Some people have to use this sixth sense regularly at work (for example good drivers or astrologers ) but it's not completely at their will. Only those that have seen this in practice know that this is possible. I always wonder what huge part of the world is hidden from contemporary scientists, because all things personal, non-mechanistic and seemingly uncausal are a taboo for them. I hope that a scientific revolution is near.

This is too ambiguous.

Let me see. If I randomly hug someone on the street today, will the happiness I bestow upon that individual by hugging them inevitably eventually return to me? No. If might make me feel good to hug someone, but the happiness I give to the other person does not "come back." Happiness does not have some substance that follows a rule that's embarassingly similar to Newton's Third Law. 

Definitely.

It depends on what they believe.

I think, in philosophy, if your assumptions are true, and your logic has no flaws, then you cannot reach a wrong answer.

 

I think Ciarin meant "It doesn't work at all."

Many words are being thrown around in this thread (as well as many other threads) in the hope that readers will catch the meaning of what is being expressed.

We always fumble in trying to convey our thoughts precisely because we are trying to conserve time and energy. As one might be sitting on the beach and sees something interesting up the beach, instead of describing to the other person exactly what you are seeing we point at it with our finger and say, "Look!"

This quasi-instincive action contributed to homo sapiens' survival for millions of years.

Simple answer, yes. But, as has been pointed out, the meaning of "life/spirit force" is not known until the claimant explains exactly what it is. So, how can I answer with a yes if the meaning of "life/spirit force" is not known? Because "life/spirit force" has been expressed many times before to mean something that is undefined and since it doesnt seem to have a clear meaning and an individual calims to believe in it she/he is duplicating theist-like irrationally.

As yet "life/spirit force" does not have a clear meaning and the result is that everyone seems to be talking past one another in this discussion.

The claimant not only has the burden of proof but also the burden of establishing an agreed upon definiens of his/her definiendum in order to begin an argument.

I stipulate that "life/spirit force" is actually a feeling; it is not energy. Which feeling it is is not clear. It could be a mixed emotion.

 

I guess it would have to depend on how one would define "force" or "energy" as someone else mentioned.  I work with energy regularly, and I try to put out positive energy.  Not for the sole reason of getting positive energy in return though.  Doing good deeds in and of itself is its own reward.

So? What your are saying is "My naked assertion doesn't make demands. My naked assertion can make anyone feel happy without being offended."

There is no "larger entity". Please do not conflate separate componants of the universe from the atom to the gama ray being equal to a "force". Luke Skywaker nor Darth Vader are responsible for the warm fuzzies humans like to claim are real than they are when we don't feel so good.

How about "shit happens", both things that benefit us and things that dont?

The planet is a thing, not an "entity". It is important for biological life to have a home to live on yes and the home is far more important than any one given species. I tend to agree that this planet would do better without us.

If scientific biological history is consistent it wont be a matter of "if" for our species but "when" as far as our extinction, just like the other 99% of extinct life that once lived. BUT what is really sad is that our demise may well be by our own hands.

Please don't anthropromorphize objects by calling them "entities". There is nothing live about non-living things.  The planet is no more an entity than a rock or grain of sand or my feces. These are just mere objects in a natural world.

 

 

Okay, since there is some uncertainty about the definition of "Life/Spirit Force", I'll try to get to something more specific:

 

 

Since Sapient already asked about the karma and "positive energy", I'll add some other things:

 

What about Meditation?

 

Mind over Matter? Such as "thinking away pain" for example, or over coming overwhelming odds again and again.

 

 

 

 

Captain and Butterbattle, this is NOT meditation. A true meditation is something that makes us really differ from animals. There are many activities not even known as meditation, and many kinds of it, but to meditate as I understand it, means:
Calm down the physical body, in ideal case a feeling and awareness of it should vanish.
Calm down all emotions and feelings.

And now something really hard - let all thoughts cease. The thought process must become either non-existent, or slow and sparse, at least. It is done by a special shift in consciousness, which focuses the person on the "higher" area of mind in which we normally don't live. If we commonly exist in emotional and cognitive mind, then what is expected is the "intuitive", thoughtless consciousness.
And finally, all that should be helped by focusing the consciousness on the point between eyebrows, approximately in the level of pineal gland. The meditation may be complemented by a special invocation and mantra, but there also should be trained a mental habit of reacting on that mantra positively. This helps in maintaining the focus.
Meditation usually happens with prevalent alpha brain waves, but trained yogis can meditate even if there are prevalent delta waves, characteristic for deep sleep. Anyone else would just doze off when that happens.

So what is the effect of meditation? Greater conscious control over the body, mind, emotions and intuition, better awareness of everything. If someone is (was) very dreamy, absent-minded, weird, unaware of the surroundings, distracted and so, meditation helps with that. It has also a great occult meaning - according to the occult teaching, it is essentially one of few things that make a human being evolve through a certain diffcult stage. (before one gets born as a genius)