Can anyone tell me this?
Posted on: November 6, 2009 - 8:06pm
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Can anyone tell me this?
First of all, i;m glad to have found this site! Today i was watching a show on Greek Mythology and they began to tell the tale of Zeus and his origin. That's when it dawned on me..... I have never heard, or heard of, anyone questioning where God came from, and how he came to be. Basic religious nonsense aside, does anyone have any ideas on why this is?
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Well i have never heard a good answer to where god came from, atleast from a theist point of view, just the standard god is eternal he has always existed. Reason: bible (insert any other religious holy book) told me so. I don't think there can be a differant answer atleast for "modern gods", if there are other theories I don't know them.
From an atheist point of view I have heard a few good theories.
don't understand things about the world "god" used to cover gap in knowledge. example: where lightning comes from, what is the cause.
Someone one to pass the blame to, example: crop failure. then again that is simalar to gap in knowledge.
Idolising traits deemed desirable, like good hunting ability. So they seek the "wisdom of a bear" or something. Asking the bear to bring good hunting.
In any case once there was a god concept it contiued to morph into what we have today, changing as more knowledge was gained and shaped by social values of the time.
There are a few topics around explaining these origins of "gods" from an atheist perspective in far greater depth than i can provide. I don't know to much about it so this is the best i can do. I don't know of any from a theist perspective though.
Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.
Hi Sammy, welcome to the forum.
Theists argue that causality is a property of the universe, and God transcends the universe, so he doesn't need a cause.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Which is why it's odd that they state that everything needs a creator.
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It's bad for business, the religious business.
Like the answer to most questions of human behavior, follow the money.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
It follows from one of the biggest argument for 'God', as the First Cause, Creator of the Universe.
This is based on the intuitive but false idea that the 'cause' of anything has to be 'greater' than its 'effect'. To allow that God needed a cause would lead into an enormous infinite regress, with some greater being needed to create the Universe creator, and a bigger one to create that one, etc.
Since ultimate causes for anything need not be greater than what they cause, the infinite regress is not a problem. If, on average, the 'cause' of something is smaller in energy and time duration that its effect, then even an infinite such sequence adds up to a finite energy and time duration, its origin infinitesimal, all but zero. In practice, this suggests that the tiniest possible energy twitch is all that is required.
This is obviously unacceptable to the Theist, since worshipping a quantum twitch as the 'Creator' doesn't have the same appeal, and doesn't quite work in the Biblical story...
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"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
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If only we could convince them that the 'twitch' loves them.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
This is largely contingent upon the cosmological argument in question. WLC's Kalam argument does invoke cause for everything, only things that begin to exist. A god under this paradigm did not begin to exist, therefore does not necessarily have a cause.
“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”
Sometimes i wonder why theists have decided their is only one infinite being and only one univesrse. Hey maybe theirs billions of infinite beings all with their own created universe all laughing and sharing stories of their universes and various life forms they watch over for entertainment. Is this not just as plausible if you bellieve in god.
Ocaam's razor, really...don't multiply entities beyond necessity.
“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”
This is what the Mormons believe(or at least pretend to believe). And that you get to become one of these gods as long as you're a good Mormon(especially giving the tithe).
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Never heard that before, but when it comes to mormons its true anything goes. Dont mormons believe god resides on an actual planet??? (klipdorf, zorgon or something?)
You need to watch the banned Mormon cartoon. Pretty much explains the whole thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
This is insanity, are they really racists?
Mormons are not racist. Their God is racist.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Not officially anymore. Elohim changed his mind apparently. Or more likely they discovered in the 60's that racism was bad for businesses. Blacks are OK now especially if they tithe.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Not officially anymore. Elohim changed his mind apparently. Or more likely they discovered in the 60's that racism was bad for businesses. Blacks are OK now especially if they tithe.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
But the intergallactical god orgies and possible assendance to these orgies still holds?
Well, if you want an historical religious evolution point of view, he was probably head deity (much like Zeus) in a polytheistic religion. Then he told Moses (or more likely people just felt like it) that people should only worship him. This is why god talks to himself in the bible and why he gets jealous if you worship other gods.
I'm sure that the original deity that Yahweh was based on had some sort of myth involving his creation. Most ancient myths from this area have the universe just kind of making itself out of Chaos. Sadly, Yahweh's origin story appears to be missing. Maybe they'll do a prequel.
isnt Yahweh jesus christ ?
His supposed daddy, actually.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Wow, you're right. YOU SOLVED IT! The god of the bible had sex with a woman in the future (keep in mind we're talking about the beginning of the universe) and gave birth to himself. Then he went back into time to create the universe. I smell a continuity error.
If only comic book nerds were around when the bible was being written. Maybe they could have pestered the writers until the story made sense.
Or is this an alternate universe?
SO why would a god who could create universes be minded of sending man to hell and stuff
Pure genius. That's helpful. I much prefer the mythological theories, at least they attempt to create reasoning behind historical events as opposed to simply saying that it's gods will.
Sammy,
If you can tolerate 80 minutes of Jack Black, 'Year One' the movie parodied 3/4 of the book of Genesis.
For reading the jesus myth, I recommend 'Lamb: The gospel of Biff, christ's childhood pal'. Funniest book EVER. Beats out Twain's 'Letters from the Earth'.
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Holy Shit
Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.
Than christianity...
I think that's why I found the movie to be so humerous and many people that I know hated it. They couldn't understand it. I talked to a friend about the movie and had to explain the meaning of the whole thing and why it was so funny. Poor lost children. And if what you say is true about Lamb, I need to get my hands on it as soon as possible.
I've had to deal with far worse that Jack Black. I've been wanting to check out that movie anyway, now i just have a better reason to watch it. I LOVE that you call it the "jesus myth"! I refer to it pretty much the same.
WHOA. WHOA. whoa whoa whoa whoa...
whoa...
where are the orgies happening?
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Where did god come from? Simple human ignorance. Humans have always sought patterns and when there is a gap in that pattern, we have evolved as a species, to default to filling in the gap. That is an evolutionary hiccup. Richard Dawkins describes this flaw in "The God Delusion" as being the same thing as when a moth mistakes a light bulb for the natural moonlight.
I think that comes from an infant's narcissism in wanting the parent's attention and protection. A parent is the first thing a human encounters. So from a human evolutionary scale, it is not a surprise that an ignorant human would look at the parent being affected by the world around them and fill in the gap with a larger more powerful parent. The first gods in human history were earthy and as our language evolved and our species became more social and less nomadic, the gods became more human like.
To overcome this, which we can, is to foster reason and questioning as a default and orient ourselves to taking a step back when a gap hits us and learn not to jump to conclusions. But, being a realist, in a theocratic world, although not impossible, I don't know how likely it is as a goal. It may be that superstition is deeply rooted in our evolution and in overcoming that fear of being wrong is the key to breaking human ignorance.
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