The Angry Americans
I am Norwegian. My knowledge of the US of A is very limited. I have only seen New York, San Francisco and Charlotte, North Carolina (!). For whatever may be the reason, I felt most at home in NC. The people were all over easier to identfy with. I don't know what that says about me, but that's how it is.
I am of the impression that Americans take religion very seriously. They often seem to have strong opinions about things that none can, strictly speaking, know anything about. Norway, however, is very "atheistic" on the practical level. Religion is mostly considered unimportant - or a matter which is of the same private nature as your sexual preferences. There are of course both religious institutions and religious people, but they have little to no political influence on society.
Now... correct me if I am wrong... but is this not how things should be in a "natural" sort of context? Should we really be debating and discussing issues that are of a private and emotional nature as if they were objective phenomenons? In my point of view, the most insidious aspect of religion is the demanding of submission, that you surrender your freedom of thought and accept "faith" instead of critical thinking. This has never been accepted in the daily life of Norway and it never will be.
Whenever theists are asked to explain the point of their peculiar psychodrama, they usually explain it in terms of personal, emotional benefits. They feel meaning. They feel peace. They find harmony, friendship, social interaction and love. They gain something from their faith. That is all well and good. The problems begin when they turn it into a doctrine and seek political power. It becomes a real conflict when they seek to impose their points of view on morality and the ways to live a righteous life on those who never asked for this, much less wanted it.
I think this is something which makes a lot of Americans very angry. Nobody likes to have their neighbour's watchful eyes on them, ready to judge them and make false gossip and slanderous rumours. But that is what they do! Americans, more than any people I have seen on travels anywhere (which is quite a lot of places), seem to be obsessed with their public image in ways that are completely alien to a Norwegian way of thinking. Here, we are more of the mind that you should leave people alone so that you yourself will be left alone. Live and let live.
Relatively speaking, I think this is the reason why there are so many "whatever" atheists in Norway. They don't feel all that passionately about it simply because it's a moot point. The majority of people just don't give a damn either way. There is no "creationism". No wacked pseudo-science people who crave attention (well, actually there are SOME, but they are obscure). It is all very peaceful like that.
Which leads me to my question: I am used to nobody as much as batting an eyelid if you say you are an atheist. "Whatever!" But Americans seem to have to manouver in a much harsher climate. Any ideas on how this produces a specific "activist" type?
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)
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I live in Canada since I was twenty-one but I grew up in The USA. Their attitude on religion seems to come from their mis-understanding of the constitutional right to 'Freedom of religion' has a RIGHT to freedom TO A religion, and anyone who is not religious is AGAINST freedom.
Americans strongly believe in freedom, and they believe strongly that you have a right to any religion you choose, even the wacked out fringe type. But un-religion is equal to un-freedom, ergo communistic and un-American. It is a mind set; ingrained since childhood that is hard to get away from. To be un-religious is to be un-American.
Since there is no longer a Russian Communist boogyman to foster all the worlds evils on they turn to anything unreligious as the new boogyman. Oh lucky us!! The rational people of the world.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
We do have a problem here. We have the religious left which is great on social issues, but thinks Big Brother is the key to peace through political correctness. Then you have the theocratic right who want Jesus to be our President. Stuck in the middle are many, including many believers who don't like either choice.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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I think you answered your own question. Rationality is under siege here due to the fact that so many people expect you to be like them, and if you're not then you must be against them. It's sort of like if you don't like eating broccoli. It's not an issue that other people like it, but if they won't let it go and keep insisting that you eat it too eventually it's going to blow up. The constant push by theists to teach creationism in science class, adorn public buildings with religious symbols, legislating their morality into the private lives of others, etc. puts us on defense.
I guarantee that if they pulled this shit in Norway it wouldn't belong before you saw the same contentious atmosphere there.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
Dude, we just burn down a church or two whenever they get too cocky.
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)
http://www.kinkspace.com
So what's it take to become a Norwegian citizen?
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
A silly speech, hubris and, above all, a big leaning towards masochism.
"Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much fraternizing with the enemy."
Don't forget the red passport that makes just about any foregner of just about any country break out into a smile.
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)
http://www.kinkspace.com
Hi Marquis,
Everything you say about America is absofuckinglutely true!!! I have lived in England, France and Italy, and have traveled all over the world. There is no country that holds religion and politics more closely to it's bosom than the U.S. of A. I love the new liberal and nonreligious politics of the new E.U states (meaning esp. Spain, France and to a lesser extent Italy). I so hope that it will slowly sink into our country...but I dare not hope.
"Religion must die for mankind to live" - Bill Maher
"Those who deny reason cannot be conquered by it" - Ayn Rand
http://www.udi.no/Norwegian-Directorate-of-Immigration/Central-topics/Citizenship-/Requirements-to-obtain-Norwegian-citizenship-by-application/#generalrequirments
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
One of the major differences between Norway and the United States is that in the U.S., just about everything - including a large portion of the social services system - is subject to the "free market". And in any free market, you have winners and losers. Keep in mind also that a free market is not necessarily a fair market - those who wind up as losers do not necessarily get to that point because they are inferior in some way.
As a result of this inherent unfairness, there is a well-documented history of activism in the States when increasingly large groups of people experience a significant degree of unfair treatment.
In Norway, because the government-provided social services system is so robust, the church does not really have much of a role when it comes to taking care of people. In the States, however, churches have historically served as safety nets for poorer and underserved populations. That's how they originally became powerful, and why they continue to be powerful today.
It's interesting to me to look at religion in the United States across the spectrum of social status and wealth. Churchgoing is clearly not only a poor person's activity.
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?