I Hate Fundamentalist Christians
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It's pointless to deny it - I hate fundamentalist christians bitterly. After long reflection I think they aren't actually human in the way I and many of you folks are. They are like reproductions of each other - industrially-moulded intellects devoid of any further possibility. Before anyone reacts to this admission of hatred, read the post below from a theist to an atheist - in this case the theist Fonzie to our JcGadfly. It's the usual christmas pudding of threatening insanity, mealy-mouthed platitudes and downright stupidity. When I read posts like this I realise that we will never open the minds of dedicated theists. These people are not like us. They are at least half - and probably completely - mad.
The thing I loathe most about Fonzie is his instinctive reaching for subtle threats in virtually every post. In this one consider use of little gems like: "The drop-off point", "No deposit return for the JcGadfly bottle", "spiritual POW". And yes, we're all making satan smile, people. The gigantic christian adhom of our inherited evil. That's such a cogent argument Fonzie, and so obviously true. There is a satan because jesus believed in him. It says so in the bible.
Perhaps others won't agree with me but I think we are too polite to fundamentalist christians. Maybe there should be a sub forum on this site with flames licking up and the sound of screaming - a place these creatures can be sent away to periodically just to acquaint them with a proper sense of empathy. When I open my mind completely to Fonzie's argument my core reaction is disgust.
"JcGadfly,
I can't restrain the wind, I can't "herd" you into the sheepfold. I can't make you understand what the great weapon Faith and the Sword of the Spirit are - especially when you have surrendered and are a spiritual POW. If you were fighting you would understand the value of faith moment by moment and parlay by parlay. But know that you could escape POW with the help of the Christ you deny.
I am being honest with you JcGadfly that what you are scoffing at is joy and peace and security beyond belief. You are the loser here not me.
I know God is just and that bridges things not revealed, like Cain's sacrifice instructions. I know God is just and right and true and I apply that to things not revealed - just like Job did to his trials. You don't trust God or trust in God so you use things not revealed as a means of accusing God of wrong. Considering the way you view God you treat me like a prince.
The law was added to give men a clear view of their sin and an eternal appreciation of their deliverance from it in God's Gift of Righteousness through Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself for us.
You do make Satan smile I'm sure of it for saying he doesn't exist. That's the way he wants to keep it with you as you head for the drop off point. It's no deposit no return for the JcGadfly bottle. When Satan's work is done with you he won't look so good or non-existent.
As far as keeping God's law goes, I have been born into Christ. I am in Him - He is the Head. When He died, I died. When He kept the law perfectly, that Righteousness has also been given to me. When He rose from the dead I rose from the dead in Him. The life I now live I live not in the flesh but in Him, in the righteousness that comes through faith.
I walk by faith and to bring in trust in some work that I have done or do or some law or ceremony other than Christ is a rock in my shoe walking by faith, water on the flame of faith. But you don't understand the value of the weapon of faith or the sword of the Spirit so that all doesn't concern you - neither can you talk about it and make sense. You have contempt for things you don't value or understand."
Theist - Fonzie
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
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I just laugh at them.
You need to keep humor available when dealing with their vague holier-than-thou threats of condemnation.
It really is funny.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
But why would Fonzie even argue that the meaning of Cain's human sacrifice instructions simply haven't been revealed to us? That's just pig-headed. I'm sorry abrahamic theists. But I'm afraid your god is directly related to baal and any number of flesh-eating monsters of his day.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
If you look carefully, the guy is on autopilot. He is just mouthing the words - in no particular order - that he hears when he listens to the church sermons. That is because they are programmed to stop thinking for themselves. And it is programming. My mom was disgusted when my sister joined the JW. She said, "I can't imagine having some man telling me what to do." But by the time she died 30 years later, she had been programmed into letting those men tell her what to read - my mom who read 5 books a day and introduced me to LOTR and other fantasy classics. I almost smashed my sister in the face after I realized just how programmed my mom had become. This guy has the same symptoms.
The programming is to discourage original / critical thinking. The minute you use your brain, they are on you, hounding and picking and repeating until you either leave or give in. It is to keep the others off of your back that you start to memorize and repeat all the pat phrases of that church group. (The exact wording will vary from church to church, from one pastor to another preacher.) It takes a strong personality to stand up to them, and a strong intellect. It also helps to be basically logical/analytical in your every day thinking patterns. Otherwise, it is all too easy to start repeating the guff.
So, a great book is Mistakes were made, but Not by Me. Written by two psychologists, it is about self justification. How we all do it. And how it manifests in personal relationships, science, the law, and religion. It helped me understand a lot about how and why people can't bring themselves to change their mind/attitudes. Stand on the top of a pyramid - you can take one small step in any direction and change your whole outlook. Take that step. And another small step. And one day you find yourself at the bottom of the pyramid and changing your attitude involves a very long journey. It takes a lot of courage and perseverance to make that journey.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
I'm not sure why you guys keep expecting "Fonzie" to act like a normal human being on this forum. I mentioned this several times in his thread : He's an ex-troll who simple registered again under another name, three months after he earned the troll badge and his second thread got locked. His first one got over a thousand posts, and now he's just recycling the whole thing again.
On top of that, he's selfmedicating his bipolar disorder with lithium, and refuses to do regular bloodtests. So there's no way to tell if his meds are active, useless, or toxic.
In short, when you enter his thread, you're basically performing the function of psychiatric nurse. He just needs somebody to preach at, someone to confirm his sanctity. He doesn't listen, he just scans each reply for a sentence, a word that he can use as a hook to hang yet another freestyle sermon on. We're his therapy.
I admire JCG's patience (he's been trying to talk sense to this guy for three years !) and his tolerance for "Fonzie"'s ludicrous dishonesty, but frankly, I'm not sure if any of us have the necessary medical qualifications to deal with someone like that.
I don't hate people for believing things I find to be absurd. I do hate the defense of naked assertions with the unreasonable expectation that they deserve taboo status. I do hate the fact that humans of all labels will defend these naked assertions to the point of political and religious power.
So when you use the word christian and hate in the same sentence it conflates their self importance. It is true that there are people WHO go through life like gang members willing to throw themselves on a grenade to defend a naked assertion. BUT what is going on here is mundane human psychology that has plagued humanity's evolution.
My point is, I warn you against singling out "Christianity" when what we are really angry about is not that they claim a fictional super hero. Humans have always made these beings up and still do today, and in the future another deity with a new name will replace these current claims.
Dont treat Christianity as if it is special or deserves special treatment. Certainly we run into it as atheists in the west because of it's majority of popularity. I think it is ALSO just as important to remind them that WE also hate claims of magical harems in the sky, and forcing women to cover from head to toe, and that lighting a candle and praying to a statue of a fat guy, is all superstition.
DO NOT give them what they want. They are not special and neither is their fictional super hero. It is ok to hate naked assertions and to challenge a naked assertion. IT IS NOT ok to forget that our human evolution is full of flaws in our collective history as a species and absurd beliefs are PART of humans NORMAL and mundane psychology.
I think a Christian might put it like this, "Love the sinner not the sin".
Our species is all that we have and this is our only planet, so it is worth it to make things work, as imperfect as they are and not be delusional as to turn others into a sub species, that is what political and religious gangs do. We do not need to contribute to that.
I am capable of loving INDIVIDUALS who do believe. I love my mom and my co-workers and friends. I DO hate that they believe in an immaterial invisible magical super brain that floats everywhere and nowhere at the same time. But that doesn't mean I hate them.
I'd put it like this, "Loving someone doesn't have to mean you love everything they say".
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Very well said, Brian. In theory...and for the most part in practice...I hold to the "love the sinner not the sin" mentality. And I think, for the most part it is possible. But that pertains to the vast majority of "moderate" believers. However...the line dividing the sinner from the sin can become VERY fine at times...so fine as to be imperceptible...when everything a person says pertains to said "sin". When their religion is ALL that they're about...all they speak of, all they think...when it is what shapes their every action and they have nothing else of significance in their life...at that point I do believe it becomes virtually impossible to separate the two. And to say you love the person, but hate what they believe, becomes pointless.
I remember, as a good Christian, trying like crazy to apply this premise to Hitler, and failing miserably. How could I love someone who did so many horrendous things? Whose very existence revolved around oppression and hatred? It just didn't make sense to me.
So, in some cases, I would have to agree that it is not necessarily a bad thing to say you hate someone for their beliefs. In some cases, that's just the way it is.
Don't get me wrong, lines do get rightfully drawn when we react to human behavior, such as Hitler and 9/11. I am not suggestion humans don't react to horrible behavior. I am simply saying that part of human empathy is accepting that we are all the same species and we all are capable of doing good and doing bad.
I warn people not to take an US VS THEM attitude to the point where "they" are no longer seen as the same species. Fight the good intellectual fight, let the words fly in debate, shake things up. But don't buy into the idea that because someone else believes something absurd, that they are not the same species.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Frankly, I'm not sure what it would mean to consider someone "not the same species." To me you can't take that literally, as it's obviously not true. WE all have belly buttons, right? (although on some people you gotta wonder if it's an implant. lol) It's merely a manifestation of absolute repulsion.
Perhaps the more accurate question is...does everyone deserve our respect...simply as human beings? And I'm really not sure they all do.
Agreed on that account. After I read that type of material, I often have to drop into youtube to decompress from the experience. Sadly, Edward Current seems to have removed his embed links but try this one:
http://www.youtube.com/user/EdwardCurrent#p/c/8DF8CC5D7E2A5011/1/bkhQLt1vbWU
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You are still missing my point. I agree people don't deserve taboo status.
I hate the word "respect" in the context that politically correct people of all labels us. It comes with the childish baggage that simply uttering something means what one utters must not be examined.
What we should not do as a species is think that we are incapable of the same human behavior. Until ANYONE is put into a given context of a given situation, all we can do as individuals is speculate. We are all capable of the same range of human emotions and actions. Labels do not preclude any human from being a human.
What I "respect" is that which can be demonstrated beyond personal bias.
I had this argument over the word "respect" with a co-worker.
What I could not get her to accept is that I DO from a human empathy standpoint "respect" the rights of others when they do not agree with me. But she could not separate that from the separate issue of the words that come out of someone's mouth, on any issue, NOT just that of god claims.
People are going to believe what they believe. There right to believe something IS NOT the issue. But without the quality control of the ability to question ANYTHING on any issue, you set up the road to fascism, which can take the form of nationalism OR theocracy or both. Stalin's fascism was no different than Iran's theocratic fascism. BOTH operate from the submission of others, appeal to authority without question.
Just as a human should have the right to make absurd claims, they do not deserve the right to make them and irrationally expect others not to kick the tires.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I'm afraid you're right. I consider myself a fairly intelligent person, but I'm feeling a bit stupid here. After reading your post over several times...I still can't say I really understand your point. Part of me wonders if we're even arguing the same point.
It almost sounds like you're saying it's Fascist to hate Fascists. Is that right?
When the only hope you have is a magic and things happen to be going well, it's not hard for them to attribute happy coincidences to the magic.
Notice how God seems to leave them to their own devices in the bad times...
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
NO........ Hate is a normal emotion. What I am saying is that WE are all capable of the same range of human emotions and actions, including hate.
It becomes fascist when the ability to "kick the tires", meaning questioning something ANYTHING, is stripped. Fascism is neither religious or atheist. It is the irrational fear of losing one's alpha male status and maintaining it through enforcement of bowing to authority without question.
Of course it is OK to hate fascists and it is OK to hate Christians or atheists or Muslims. NOT in the context that humans have valid reasons for that hate, but merely a human recognition that ALL humans are capable of feeling that emotion. When I us "Ok" i mean that it is natural, NOT MAGICAL, in the strict sense that we can and do observe this expression of emotion.
It is natural that Hitler's rise to power happened. The following he gained is naturally explained through mundane human behavior. Germany got it's ass kicked in WW1. AFTER that war Germany was left to rot and the west did nothing to help Germany. Top that off with bad economic times and you have nothing, a nutcase promises to feed you and give you pride again, you might follow them of the cliff.
Hating Hitler IS normal, but so is hating the Pope and hating Obama and hating Dawkins and hating Bush. But that is again, merely a recogintion that the emotion of "hate" happens. That does not mean that the person expressing that emotion has rational reasons for that "hate". I think Jews had a rational reason to "hate" Hitler, but that doesn't mean that his rise to power was the result of a magical man with a pitchfork. Hitler rose to power because he gave Germany the hope it was looking for, all be it for the wrong reasons and irrational reasons.
Feeling any emotion IS OK and natural, WHAT makes someone control themselves is not projecting oneself on others, what makes someone control themselves is accepting that just because you hear something you don't like that offends you, doesn't mean it is wise to act out physically on that emotion.
If Hitler hadn't been the demented fuck he was, a rational leader would have asked for help instead of killing for resources. BUT it is understandable WHY he came to power, not that he was right.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
im starting to hate them too
as people. I just hate the implications of what they say. The hell thing, and worshipping, loving the master of the hell-thing, shows some sort of mental imbalance that makes the christian's personal safety the most important thing in their life. The rest of us can go hang. And it's not that we're even committing a crime of action - it's a thought crime. Because we have trouble believing in invisible magic things, satan must be controlling us and so we will be burned. When you start to apply this thinking to your kids, teenagers - to everyone - then you have to ask yourself whether these are normal human beings or whether they are somehow incomplete. I personally, could never, would never, worship the maniacal christian god represented in the bible. But they can...
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
That's why famous atheists usually don't debate creationists anymore. They can't get a chuckle out of it anymore, there reaction is simply that of disgust. I used to watch Kent Hovind videos for comedy. But now he just disgusts me.