Slightly open-minded Christian
Offline If anyone has read my introduction you will know my situation. As it turns out, my sister, who is 20 years old still living at home who has been a Christian all her life may just be slightly open minded. She's the only one in my entire family who I can speak to about my lack of belief without becoming fightin' mad. I showed her a few verses from the old testament last night that were cruel and ruthless. She then went to my parents and they gave her the typical "Law-Grace" bullshit that Christians always defend the old testament with. I doubt she was satisfied with this answer. My life would be 100% better if I had someone on my side. Should I take any further action? I just got "The God Who Wasn't There" from Netflix today. I was very impressed. Should I try to show it to her? No? Perhaps something else? My sister is in Medical School right now, she nows that her life demands critical thinking, I'm thinking she may now be starting to look at her faith with critique instead of blind faith.
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Pillow but I can't see the harm in sharing stuff with your sis. It's a shame she has to rush off to mum and dad for clarification on this - that puts you on a collision course with your oldies. I'm surprised these issues haven't occurred to her before. You don't want to create too much of a family rupture while at the same time you want to own your space. I'd go quietly about it at this stage. What do some other folks think on this one?
Mmmmm. I never understand the Law-Grace thing - it absolves god of responsibility for showing love and forgiveness whenever he decides to channel retribution and call it justice.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
You might try subtlety. I'm reading Homeland by Barbara Hambly. Your sister may enjoy it - it's about two women, one from the North and one from the South, told through their correspondence during the Civil War. There is one charming bit about appropriate bible stories for one's children - the she-bear eating little children for teasing the prophet about his bald head for one. I say subtle because Ms. Hambly is one excellent writer and not just your every day romance hack. She started with sci-fi, then switched to historical mysteries. Her major area of study was Civil War history. So her books ring with authenticity.
Subtle is slow, but you have to remember your sister is way down a pyramid of an attitude and has to make a long journey back. If you push her, she may go the opposite way. So don't push, guide. Changing people's minds and hearts may take a day, or years, and may also never happen.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Well don't press it. I can say that the best thing I have found to convince people, even if they never end up changing their position, you can convince them that you don't have a third eye by being a good person and doing things around the house OUTSIDE the issue of religion to SHOW them that you are good. Your dad is washing his car, offer to help. Trash needs to be taken out, do it without asking. Mow the lawn.....go shopping for your mom.....ect ect ect.
At work I a more respected than my boss's son and he believes. My co workers don't understand my position but they know that I have good work ethic and when the poop hits the fan they know that they can count on me. They'd also say that I am anal and worry too much and that my jokes are super bad, eye rolling bad, cornball bad. But they don't think I am a bad person.
Your family may never accept that you are an atheist, but you CAN long term SHOW them that you are a good person. So even if they never deconvert themselves, long term they can see you as normal.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Hi Pillowpants,
In my life, I enjoy the fact that not everyone in my family or out of it agree with my viewpoints regarding religion. I would find that boring. I'm only offering that so you can see what looks like an empty glass and imagine it at least a bit fuller. Life is far to short and I must live now without any expectation of some eternity after I am gone. Right now I am going through deep mental anguish over my niece who got pregnant by a youth ministry man at a time when she was grieving the loss of her father. If all I had to worry about was getting her to change her views about religion, that would be a cake walk next to what I am sorting out with her and lawyers now. IOW, it could be worse.
I don't know enough about the situation to give any specific advice.
But on general terms I can say this: Never ever lie about who you are and what you feel. Be real.
You may be able to live as only a small part of all that you are, but when you die, you die in full and whole.
All that you ever were and all that you could have ever been. That is what dies with you.
In lieu of this, I suggest that everybody should search for their own, personal truth.
If you find it in faith, fine, good for you. Go for it. All the more power to you.
But if you don't, if you are tormented by that which haunts most people, you should reject 'faith' as a lie.
Not a big cosmic lie, but as something which isn't true for you, in your personal life.
I'd say comfort lies in beauty. The beauty of nature and the beauty of creative arts.
You don't have to "know" or give names to things, you only have to appreciate the wonder.
The mystery of existence and the human predicament of feeling not quite sure about anything.
You can be sure about how you feel. That is real. And I have never met anyone who rejects beauty.
The beauty of Michelangelo's Pieta or the beauty of a wildflower. It's the same thing. It tugs at your heart.
It doesn't matter what you believe. All that matters is what you do... and at this point I will give credits.
A Muslim creationist site claimed that "God created the world so that man could learn how to give thanks".
I sympathise with the sentiment (but I reject the bollocks that followed, of course).
Give thanks? How? Simply by counting your blessinge before you count your curses. That's all.
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)
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If she's in medical school, she must be very intelligent.
I'm not sure if you should show her that movie, specifically, but yes, for someone in your situation, it would be nice to have someone to talk to. Just try not to be too antagonistic.
Moral problems like these?
"Say to the Israelites: "A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be cermonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding."" Leviticus 12:2-5
"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery." Deuteronomy 13:6-10
"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property." Exodus 21:20
""Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the Lord in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the Lord's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31:15-18
"For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
Or an inconsistency?
"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs." 1 Corinthians 13:4-5
"Beloved, let us LOVE one another: for love is of God; and every one who loves is born of God, and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is LOVE." 1 John 4:7-8
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments." Exodus 20:5-6
"For all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy." Zephaniah 3:8
Or, problems with science? The flood? Sun stopping in the sky? Punishing snake by taking away its legs?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
This is similar advice to what is written above...
Treat her gently. I only talk to people about it as much as they are willing to hear. If you push to hard they stop listening.
If you think the video would be interesting to her mention it to her first, just as you would with any movie, and see if she is interested. I also would warn her if you think it may be confronting to her.
I also agree that if people know that you are a good person (through knowing you, your behaviour etc) when they find out that you are an atheist they are more likely to still respect you and realise that it doesn't make you a bad person.
Also, if she doesn't totally ditch god you will still win if you keep good relations with her and can talk about it.
good luck.
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51