As an atheist do you feel you can do whatever you want?
Posted on: February 11, 2010 - 8:58pm
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As an atheist do you feel you can do whatever you want?
Over on Zoinberg's persistent thread Jesus Died For My Sins Without My Permission the deeply irritating theist Reverend Doctor Lyle says (and I paraphrase), that atheists are not subject to justice, can do whatever they like and have no expectation of punishment for doing wrong. What I want to know from atheists is if you actually think you can just go out and do whatever the hell you like. And if not, what do you feel it is that governs you?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
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Some of it is down to Earthly consequences, e.g. not being able to get away with it here.
Some of it is down to internalisation of expected behaviours - our upbringing often makes certain actions feel unnatural and we don't feel right doing them.
Some of it is down to senses of compassion and justice, that we don't like seeing pain and wrong - doing.
I think we still need to keep working as a society, taking measures to keep both ourselves and each other in check, because while we value "goodness" in general, sometimes we can get caught up in a desire in the moment...
You know, I wish I'd been taught some useful human psychology back in school; about how we feel, what drives us, how us and others behave and why, and what can be done about it. I think that most of the BS around nowdays could be cured by the general public having a better understanding of how our mind works. The Catholic upbringing I had might've been reasonably liberal and benevolent, but it was still inaccurate, and for that reason damaging.
I felt I could do more as a christian, honestly. I could shrug off regret with "forgiveness", and write off terrible ideas as okay.
There was a point in my life where after being taught gays should be killed, I asked why we didn't do that then. They blamed it on Satan and his use of liberals, which then I thought for at least a year or two it would be perfectly normal and good to try and purge the country of homosexuality.
Either by deportation or death. Both seemed reasonable, since gays weren't "real" people, they were Satan's creatures. God did it, and God is perfect and good. So it is good to get rid of them in any way possible.
I wasn't alone in this thought process. That is what utterly terrifies me still to this day, that this was accepted, and still is. Not just by children, but by adults. They led us to this, and then encouraged it.
It is far too common a thing for my comfort.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
I agree with you on the teaching of human psychology in school. In place of truth we've implanted myth in one of the most subtle and important gaps in our self comprehension and it is damaging. Sometimes when I'm thinking about the vagaries of morality I feel like I'm trying to open a wine bottle with a can opener.
Now, something theists never admit in discussion about right and wrong is the presence of good habits that are automatic. A state in which positive social behaviours become ingrained in a personality by dint of nature and nuture, bedding down over a long period, polished by the sacrifice of raising kids, caring for dying parents and living life in the world. Our feelings are deepened by our own hurts. Doing right is not some sort of daily choice we wrestle with in a hollywood-style struggle with satanic forces. We do these good things because that is who we are.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I feel sorry for gays in places like Uganda and in Iran. And I am sorry for our backwards nation that it took Mathew Sheppard to wake the country up. You'd think with women and blacks went through in this nation would have learned by now.
We still have a long way to go.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I do get sick of religion claiming it has a monopoly on morality as if it invented it. It is so foreign to believers to conceive that someone who doesn't believe can do the same good.
Hitchens puts it quite aptly "Name me one good thing or deed done or said by a believer that a non-believer couldn't do. "
There isn't. Atheists give to charity. Atheists take care of their kids. Atheists take care of their parents. Atheists have good work ethics. I should say for any human, it is not that it is automatic, I merely state that in the context that EVERY human is capable of this, even if they dont always do it.
It is simply false that someone who doesn't believe is incapable of doing the same good a believer could. We simply don't assign our deeds, good or bad, to superman vs kriptonite.
We are living proof that a superman vs a super villain is not required to live life.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I think we have consequences for our actions.
I would assert that what we're really talking about is cause and effect.
"Lisa, if the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girls sports, such as hot oil wrestling and foxy boxing and such."
Homer Simpson
I think we have consequences for our actions.
I would assert that what we're really talking about is cause and effect.
"Lisa, if the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girls sports, such as hot oil wrestling and foxy boxing and such."
Homer Simpson
that Christians could somehow come up with a monopoly on ethics, when the history of Christian actions goes to the contrary.
All of these actions stem from a group of people who have no sense of compassion and a lack of ethical fortitude. Whenever I bring this up, I get the "That was in the past" rhetoric that screams of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
Another part of the Christian ethic that is disturbing to me is that there is focus on no doing bad things rather than doing good things. Look at the 10 commandments. All but one (Honor your parents) are "Thall shalt not" creeds. I would argue that it is much easier not to do something bad than it would be to do something good. Doing something good has a moral risk. To help someone out who is drowning or help a person stranded on the side of the road requires risk on the party that is assisting. There is no risk to simply not doing something bad. Therefore, being ethical by doing good things, no matter what your belief system, is far superior to the Christian ethic of "Don't do bad things".
NOTE: The commandment to not work on the Sabbath could be construed as a positve: "Take the day off".
I would also argue that if Christians are going to pick and choose what they are/are not going to follow in the Bible (such as Deuteronomy and Leviticus), then they are doing the same thing that we as atheists do; in a sense, we are shaping the ethics of our society based on current conditions. The difference is I am not using a book of myths as my starting point in order to find the parts that I like.
When it comes down to it, ethics are fluid and circumstantial. It is easier to stand on a higher moral ground when your primary needs are being met. However, if I am destitute, homeless, and hungry, the likelyhood of me stealing food from a store is increased. Does this make me a "bad" person because I am trying to survive and meet my primary needs? Food for thought, so to speak.
Dolt:"Evolution is just a theory."
Me:"Yes, so is light and gravity. Pardon me while I flash this strobe while dropping a bowling ball on your head. This shouldn't bother you; after all, these are just theories."
You are allowing yourself to be hijacked by a manipulator whose only interest is to play head games.
As is indeed the case with a lot of those "discussions" in said forums. These are sick people. They need psychiatric help.
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)
http://www.kinkspace.com
I feel I can do whatever I want without metaphysical repercussions.
However, I feel that there are many things I should not do, because they would violate the social contract that governs our society. I also have an innate and socially encouraged sense of morality and empathy towards other members of my species.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Theists will never be able to understand how one can determine right from wrong without the ominous spectre of eternal damnation looming over us.... The truth is, the most benevolent, empathic, moral people I have ever met have been Atheists.
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
Atheists do not get up each day and say "what can i do wrong today", they are governed by an innate sense of ethics and morality.. which has been fostered
by their parents and community. It comes naturally to us !!
On the other side, and up until a short time ago it was okay for theists to regard black people as evil..
where were the laws of Abraham then..
To think that Theists have the monopoly on what is right and wrong just because they are not burdened by the fear of going to hell..
(Hell only mentioned in the New Testament ) and that Atheist lack this , is just plain irrational.
"What I want to know from atheists is if you actually think you can just go out and do whatever the hell you like."
Any can go out and just do whatever the hell they want. It is just that a lot of things that you could possible do are amoral and you would have to deal with the consequences. How a particular person judges what kinds of actions they will take depends on what kind of moral system they follow. People who follow a divine command moral system have a tendancy to announce that no one else has a moral system or a moral foundation. Those people are liars.
If someone ever tells you that atheists can not have a moral basis: ask them if they are talking about a basis for a deontological moral system or a consequentialist moral system (assuming that only modern popular moral systems are being discussed). If they can't answer that question, you know they are full of shit.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
Mos' def!
I think you're being a bit harsh on theists in here.
Firstly, not all theists are Christians and not all Christians subscribed to a strict literalistic biblical view of human nature.
And many of those who do when in "preacher mode" tend to be a lot more "common sense" when naturally dealing with problems without their religion at the front of their mind. I think that the irrationalities in modern religion are largely where people fill in gaps. Modern religion accepts the scientific view of how the world is and how it is created. The Vatican officially holds to the theory of evolution and declares Genesis to be metaphorical/mythological rather than historical fact. Most theists hold to secular fact and model their religion accordingly to fit it. The religion plays a part where people have gaps. At the moment, a proper understanding of the self doesn't get a secular teaching in school so people fill the void with whatever they can find. Moderate religion, post modernism and new-age superstitions aren't the problem - they are just symptoms of gaps in people's knowledge. Fundamentalism with it's anti intellectualism is another issue altogether - that actively acts to prevent people from coming to the truth, but I think even then that adherents of fundamentalism wouldn't be so anti-knowledge if they had a proper taste of what they were missing.
That said, I think there's still a major struggle.
Our human nature is very varied, so naturally some parts of our nature are good for our morality while others are bad.
I think that once we've develloped some good habits it can come very easily, but develloping those good habits or doing right in spite of bad habits... a struggle indeed!!
Hi Straf - I get your point but it's just that at the age of 42, I get up go to work, work, go home, watch TV and go to bed. Sure, there are some pleasant variables. Sometimes I get drunk on tuesday night. But the thing is that it's not like I go through the day desperately trying to restrain myself from lying, stealing, murdering or commiting any violence whatever. I have reached an age where I no longer covert what I cannot afford. Wanking, well that's a given, but it's a piss-poor crime if you ask me. Love my brother? I love both my brothers and both my sisters, too.
My biggest weekly moral challenge is motivating myself to make a proper effort at work and visiting my mother for a dose of period drama every wednesday night. I live in the city and she in the suburbs and the traffic can be a pain. I suppose I can get momentarily grumpy but being honest with myself my sins are pathetic, mostly self correcting and as my testerone levels fall will become almost non existent. I'm naturally honest and generally polite, except to theists, and even then I barely mean it.
I've not read a thread on this topic here but I wonder whether sin is a fabrication, an amplification of our natural and healthy feelings of guilt that encourage us to do what our upbringing tells us is right.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Duh!
Rather than thinking in terms of 'mind-control', I suggest having a look at the concept of 'crotch-control'. The agenda of a religious body is of course to recruit you as a work drone to do the biddings of the ideology, and to promote you to the ranks of hierarchic leadership should you show such talent and ambition. But the ideology needs something really really strong to hold you with. Ideas aren't enough. Feelings of comradeship and allegiance aren't enough. They need fear, shame and guilt; because those are the building blocks of the peculiar kind of 'Stockholm-syndrome' that makes people dedicate themselves to these by and large evil projects.
Who needs your heart and mind when they have your testicles in a vice? Only a very subtle degree of tightening will make you jump to your feet and want to do just about anything for the person(s) who control that vice. Sexuality is a basic urge of human nature. Everybody has one - and everybody has some kind of messed up psychological complex surrounding their sexual identity. It pretty much makes us into sitting ducks for anyone who knows how to manipulate the human-emotional mind-and-body complex. Which is why I always say that there can be no political freedom unless we first have sexual freedom. The fiercest enemy of sexual freedom is of course religion. Nobody would give a toss about religion if they had sexual freedom. We would of course continue the debate on metaphysical issues and speculative ideas about the nature of existence, but we wouldn't feel that desperation, the urge to 'confess' and beg 'forgiveness' before a sinister image of 'God'.
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)
http://www.kinkspace.com
I don't consider the drinking and wanking to even be wrongs unless they impinge on the rest of your life.
Sounds like you've reached a place in your life where your habits give you a reasonably comfortable life.
I'm in a different position myself.
At 24 my habits aren't so ideal - there's things I want to achieve in life, things I want to do, but spend too much time being a bit lazy...
Need to get out and myself sorted out.
(e.g. instead of being here I should be working on my CV and job hunting!!
)
Here's to the day when I reach your level!
Theists can invent a god for themselves so they can do whatever they feel is right. If you want to be a terrorist, just pick a god that condones this. You want to kidnap Haitian children, there's a god for that too. Same with slavery, racism, sexism, etc...
We're all governed by whatever we feel is right. I don't derive any pleasure in causing pain to others unless it's revenge. I just don't need to invent an imaginary friend to approve of what I do and don't do.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Great choice of topic, Atheistextremist. It is good for me to consider the before and after in my life.
In my fundamentalist days I figured God would intervene where necessary and I would not fret about my ignorance. He was in charge. He won't let anything get out of hand and give me nothing more that I can bear. I would exhibit more dangerous behaviors back then and take more risky chances in terms of my physical safety since I was being watch over. God would prevent a deer from running out in front of my motorcycle. I just needed to ask.
I was on the other hand more worried about offending people. I think underneath I thought I needed people around me to speak to God on my behalf. Nothing necessarily Biblical about that but just an undercurrent. I was more defensive about my actions needing to prove I was worthy or misunderstood.
Today I see the consequences of my behavior as more final. I screw up. I pay. I don't worry as much about offending people but I don't see myself as particularly cruel, just more frank and honest. That is a much higher priority for me. I don't have an agenda to defend. I am just another human in 7 billion, before I was special and spoke for God. Coming off just right was far more important. People's ETERNAL souls were at stake.
I used to believe angels, dead people and God would watch and judge me. I was never alone. It certainly was hard to be natural. My choices were not my own but those of others or those I thought others would want me to do including Jesus.
Now I own my choices entirely. They are mine and that is quite powerful. I take time these days to consider what I want to do. I found this has cleaned up a lot of passive-aggressive behavior in my life to the note of loved ones around me. I find I am kinder to others. I genuinely am interested in what they have to say. Am far better a listener. I don't fear what they have to say because they are not speaking for God but only themselves. My intuition is far better than I ever thought it would be.
I don't wish to harm others because I know I am harming myself at the same time and feel it internally. Trying to save souls was a painful burden because that was yet another point I felt was being grading on. Well, I was a minister so yeah I was being judged continuously by the flock.
By far, by far I am a more content person and more patient. No impending doom that I must get ready for.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
Perfectly stated !!!
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
It's really just empathy more than anything else. The thought of making someone else fundamentally unhappy is abhorrent to me, and I think that's a natural reaction to other beings. Some may threaten my survival or need to be consumed for my own survival (I'm a carnivore) and that needs to be dealt with on some level. But I don't defer to "consequences" or the rule of law. In essence, fucking with others for its own sake makes me feel nauseous and horrible. If it didn't, I'd wonder if I were a sociopath. From what I've seen, most conscious beings have a sense of "compassion" which helps them to navigate their environment in the most harmonious way possible. Evolution seems to favor it.
And I think in the context of my own life the more bad things get done to me the more I resist doing those things to other people. Causing other people pain hurts more than being a recipient. I have regrets that are decades old. Regrets for momentary acts or words, thoughtless in most cases, that are still stabbing me now. Things I did in a second that have pained me for a sum of days even weeks over the intervening years. There are some mistakes I think of most every day. For instance, I once broke up with a girl feebly and without respect and even now 15 years later, with the friendship restored for ten years and the lady married to a better man and happy, I cannot think of that time and the things I did then without the most grievous remorse. And this is one error.
It's too brief a treatment, but maybe christianity is a get out of gaol free card to save us from the deserved ache of wrongs our imaginations allow us to too closely share. I don't know about you lot but I couldn't get away with accidental but careless murder. My inner judge would set me hanging from a tree, nothing surer. Makes me wonder if the angry, vengeful god of the bible is a projection of the punishments we feel we deserve, a raging anthropomorphic projection born of empathy itself...
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
It's been said many times here I'm sure, but "good people doing bad things requires religion." If left to our own devices, without some kind of eternal judge watching over us, I believe the majority of us will choose to do what's right simply because it is right.
I think that I am smart enough to get away with quite a lot if I planned it (of course there are lots of people in jail who thought the same thing, he he).
As others say the thing that stops me is my ethics and morals.
I also have regrets for things that I have done that hurt others emotionally. Even if it was not my fault or intention, if I hurt others it causes me pain. This in turn helps me try to be more careful in future.
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51
Hmm, this is quite insightful. I think that pretty much describes me to a T. It's an interesting strategy, kind of like a reverse Golden Rule. Don't do unto others what you didn't like done unto you. It makes sense, too, because if you *know* it hurts, because you've experienced it, then your empathy will automatically kick in, preventing you from doing it in the first place. There are other useful maxims, but this one has the advantage that it learns from *actual* experience -- rather than wishful thinking like the Golden Rule -- and becomes better/smarter over time.
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Haha!! I've got enough of those at 24.
I take it it only gets worse from here!
I think that there's a lot to be said like that.
A lot of the fundamentalist Christians I met at university talked about how being forgiven allows you to forgive yourself.
Historically, the more angry, vengeful sides of God came first. The "forgiveness" and "redemption" seemed to come in with the New Testament.
This was when humanity had become more civilized. Tribal warfare was much reduced within the empire and people were more accountable for their actions as individuals within a society rather than members of a pack/tribe. When they became less soldiers and more civillians, life became less about survival and more about place in civillized society. Perhaps that's when people started getting "needs" for forgiveness and redemption, a need that Christianity could fulfill.
No, I don't feel I can do anything that I want. I actually have quire a few things I'm not willing to do. I am governed by my feelings, and reason. I feel bad when I cause other people pain therefore I reason that I should avoid doing so.
Three cheers. Sin is a fabrication. It is designed to control people. Sin as Fonzie (or even RevLyle) has noted is something not natural but a searing of the conscience or some other Biblical phrase. You could have had a pleasant visit with your Mom, found the traffic not annoying, kissed the wife, kissed the kids, petted the dog, sat quietly and reflectively in your easy chair and *BAM* you still are a worthless sinner. You still need the blood of Christ. There is no getting away from such guilt. You could do all the good works outshining even Paul of Tarsus and still you are a f*cking piece of sh*t. It is perpetual guilt unless you surrender to Jesus. But the bad news is once that undercurrent is established it is always there. You need to beg and plead so you do not slip. And then all the rules come in. If you love Jesus you would be out saving souls or donating or this or that. Perpetual judgement. You have to strive continuously. The preacher is there to remind you. Time is short, PEOPLE!!! Get Busy. You can rest in heaven.
In my new non-biblical book, which is simply my conscience, I can be grumpy. There is no sin in that. I am just human. I can be angry. Nothing wrong with that. The only difference is it belongs to me and doesn't have to be ripped out by Jesus. It belongs to me and I don't have to make belong to someone else or give it to someone else or feel even bad because it is *STILL* there. Christianity has made us feel bad about having anger, fear, pain, lust. Those are what make me human and they are quite informative about who I am. Sometimes my mother is just annoying and sometimes I am just annoying too. No big deal. My behavior is the control point. These emotions belong to me and I should not make them belong to anyone else. I might lust after a beautiful woman, but that does not give me the right to push myself on her in inappropriate way. Once I accept lust is fine I can savor the feeling without even the woman knowing or even talking derogatory about her to the boys. I do get angry in traffic and give the bird to the guy who just cut me off but under the dashboard. I don't want to escalate the situation. It expresses the anger and then most times I get a good laugh at myself and chill and realized I don't want to mess up my day. All these emotions are time for reflection not reaction. In Christianity I reacted and begged for them to be removed and thought how vile I was. This only made the situation worse. I would try to repress them. It was like pushing a basketball down harder it just only came back harder. When I processed the emotion as noted beforehand they came and they went. I became a calmer person. If salvation ever felt like I feel today I would have stayed.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
The Golden Rule of Jesus was a plagarism of Rabbi Hillel's (c.110BCE-10CE) golden rule:
That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.
I think this Rabbi quote is more meaningful.
For Jesus' version do unto others as you would have them do unto you, I have always viewed as not an action but a statement. People automatically treat others as they treat themselves.
People can treat themselves hatefully (over wrought guilt for example) and recognize how they hate it. Rabbi Hillel says don't treat them like you are treating yourself. By the way don't treat yourself that way either.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
That's the stuff that life is made from. Fucking up is a human constant.
All mentally sane people find it much easier to forgive the transgressions of other people than those of their own. But the pain of not being able to live up to our own (often unrealistic) standards can get a little out of hand at times. When none of those things that happened in that place at that time matters to anyone but ourselves anymore, we really should have the moral courage to say fuck it and forgive ourselves, rather than go on being ghosts in our own haunted house of memories.
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)
http://www.kinkspace.com
Yeah. The moment we start being perfectionist and dwelling on our transgressions, that's the moment we create our own mental tyranny.
Ironically, to be the best person we can, we have to let go and just "flow with it".