Is it worth pushing my parents to disbelieve?
Offline Hi all,
I'm an atheist, increasingly anti-theist, who thinks that religion is a very harmful thing, in general.
My parents are methodist christians, liberal, left-wing, charity giving, well educated. They dont dispute evolution or physics or any basic scientific positions.
They accepted mine and my sisters rejection of christianity as teenagers with reasonably good grace, allowing us to stop attending church - allthough I had hated attendance for many years, possibly always, and was very glad to escape.
Ever since, there has been a gulf between us that has never healed, and that is painful to me. As my parents age, and their death approaches, I feel more than ever a desire to bridge this gulf and reconnect with them.
Part of the problem is that I find it hard to respect people with religious beliefs. I find it so ridiculous, so illogical, so unrealistic and implausible, that I cannot understand how intelligent people can still believe it. If I could see through the lies and delusion as a child, why can't other adults? In the case of my parents, where I know them to be intelligent, well-educated, well-travelled, critical thinkers, I find it even harder.
Its understandable if a redneck from a small american town, raised in an evironment saturated in religious propaganda and never or rarely exposed to athiesm still believes the lies, but my parents should have the mental and intellectual capacity to challenge their own beliefs and find them wanting.
As it is, they have been slowly doing that, bit by bit rejecting various parts of the bible, the virgin birth, genesis, a lot of the old testament, etc. Like most reasonable christians, they apply their own morality as a filter to the "holy text" and extract only the parables and teachings that they agree with, rejecting the rest as distortions, mistranslations, or additions made by humans. What frustrates me about this is that it seems they have stripped down their beliefs to a core that seems to consist of a vague benevolent god-creator, and jesus's messages of love , tolerance and compassion for the poor.
Some people might think great- if only all christians would strip down to that core, and the world would be a better place. A bible without all the hate and bigotry might actually be worth reading. But its not enough for me. I can't understand how they can reject so much of their holy book and still cling to its "spiritual truth" when every other page is in tatters. I feel like they are only a few steps away from admitting it is all just lies and delusions, and that even the good moral advice found occaisionally in it, is stuff they could find elsewhere.
Both my mum and my dad have said a few things in the last year that suggest they may be wavering, and their final bits of faith are fading, to be replaced by doubt.
So my decision is a choice between doing nothing, and hoping the relentless assault of reality will undermine their last few believes, and lead to rejecting christianity, god, heaven etc, or actively trying to accelerate the process, by engaging them in argument and discussion.
I feel confident that I could demolish what little believe they have left, after all, I have argued with many believers on the internet, and with the resources available at a click of a button every argument they use to defend can be easily pulled apart, and shown as a fallacy.
But I hesitate to do so. On the possible benefit side, if they reject these stupid beliefs, I might finally be able to respect them on that front, and we can finally discuss the harm it did to me as a child, and perhaps form closer bonds in the final years of their life. On the possible negative side, they have devoted their entire lives to the church, attending every sunday, praying all the time, choir practice, being lay preachers, organising various church events etc.. If they are forced to face reality and reject believe in god, then they will have to admit they have wasted much of their lives. It must be a very hard thing to do, and can only lead to feelings of stupidity, anger, self-hate, despair etc.. I can't imagine how painful it must be to admit to yourself how wrong you are, after such a long period of time. Its possible the harm to their personalities, their self-worth etc, would outwieght any strengthening of the bond between us.
So this is my problem. I love them, I want them to be happy, but I want them to recognise the truth, and I want them to reject their lifelong belief system.
Any advice?
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Put aside your own pregidous reconnect with them.. Let them believe if its what they want. there is no need to make this about you. Your post is all about what you want.... what about what they want? You guess a little at what they might feel but it seems as if this is all about you. Really you think if they become atheists you would magically be able to respect them and reconnect? If you have some issue with your parents them changing isn't going to fix it, its you that has to be more accepting of the differances between you. Really you want to change them so they would fit your worldview better.... look at yourself first, you are the one that cannot accept them (at least from what you have said). There is no reason you shouldn't be able to respect religous people. its a silly idea. There has got to be more to this than religion.
Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.
well, thanks for replying.
Yes this is about me, and about what I want, but as I made clear in my final paragraph, I am concerned that pushing them to reject god might be harmful to them, which is why, to date, I havn't. And I am mainly motivated to try and change their views by a desire to bond with them. So if that is selfish then so be it, I don't think my motives are that bad. Your proposed solution, of me just accepting them, hasn't worked in 15 years, and is unlikely to change.
Unfortunately i cant just put aside my prejudices, I cant just make myself respect them. You say I must have "some issue" with them, that there "has to be more to it than religion". Well, obviously my relationship with them is complicated, and there is more than one single issue that affects it, but the primary, main issue, at least that im aware of, is this one, religion. I don't see why you assume there must be another one. Perhaps you are an atheist who respects religious beliefs, and therefore can't understand the difficulty I have. I'll try to clarify.
If my parents still fervently believed in santa claus, prayed to him every day, donated money to him, and centred their life around his teachings, it would be embarrasing, pitiful and sad. If despite all the evidence against his existence, they still put out mince pies and brandy by the chimney every year, then tried to rationalise away the fact they were left untouched and no presents were delivered, year after year, then most people would consider them deluded, mentally unhinged, in need of care or psychoanalysis, and possibly unfit to be parents. I find belief in an invisible sky-friend, a homophobic, hate-filled, irrational, petty, vengeful, deceitful god, to be just as ridiculous, just as embarrassing, just as implausible. How am I supposed to respect them for that?
To be raised told that you are being constantly watched, wherever you are, whether you are having a shit, sleeping, having a wank, etc, by a judgemental invisible creature that will punish you with torture for eternity is a seriously harmful and retarded thing to tell a child. To be told the meaning of life is to "glorify god" or to follow some unknown mysterious "plan" that he has for you, is also harmful. I could easily go on, listing a million stupid things I was taught as a child, the various immoral, unethical things the bible and sunday school tried to instill in me.
So I find it impossible to respect those views or beliefs, and by extension the people who hold them. In my world respect is earnt, not automatically assigned to people simply because they are related genetically. ~Please note I do respect my parents in other areas- I respect their gifts to charity, their hard work ethic, the love they have shown me, etc.
I can respect someone who is ignorant, or holds incorrect views on reality, IF and only if, they are prepared to debate those views, accept new evidence against those views, and critically examine them. If they still hold those views, yet cannot explain or defend why, then it would appear they are desperately clinging to self-delusion, prefer to continue "believing" a lie they now know deep down to be false, rather than admit the truth and face the consequences. That is moral cowardice, and impossible to respect.
So you are intolerant of people who have opinions that differ from your own?
Well im not going to pretend to know how you feel. you want to know how you can respect them? they fed and clothed you for a large period in your life... if that doesn't earn your respect I don't know what will. Seeing as religion is the primary thing you are concerned about that must mean they are pretty good parents, i mean you not complaining about child abuse or anything. Can you not respect them for that? Its not like they forced it on you when you stoped believing... can you not respect them for that? you recognise these things i assume based on what you said. Why is this religion so important? But if this religion issue is so important to you just don't talk about religion to them and pretend. best i can come up with.
people hold some stupid beliefs.... no need to judge the person on that one belief.
Look don't you think you are being a little irrational with this whole religion and your parents thing. why should it be such an important point? Surely you have friends who are religous? or at the very least have people you get on with who are religious?
Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.
I don't know your parents or how they might respond to losing the faith. People feel differently. I didn't waste my entire life on religion, so when I lost it, it was no big deal. I said, that's it, I can't accept this, I'm out of here. And it was over and done for me, no anger, no regrets, no loss of self-worth. But that is me.
Try this book: http://www.amazon.com/Losing-Faith-Preacher-Atheist/dp/187773313X/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268507375&sr=1-21
Well, sorry to disappoint, but most people will not change their minds through debate. In fact, debate solidifies belief on both sides of the debate.
This book on the subject is great: http://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Were-Made-But-Not/dp/0156033909/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268507535&sr=1-1
The analogy from this book that I like is: belief is like a pyramid. We start on the top of the pyramid. One small step will take us in any direction. So we take that step, and another, until we are at the base of the pyramid. Then, to change our position, it is a very long journey to the opposite side. (see the previous book)
Each of us has to make that journey - or not - in our own time and fashion.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Ok, perhaps I need to clarify what I mean by respect.
Its not that I have "total disrespect" for people or the opposite. There is clearly a line between both extremes and I might respect someone for one aspect of their personality, and disapprove of some other aspect. I don't actively dis-respect anyone.
My default norm is to show respect to people as humans, as living creatures. I am polite to strangers, willing to hear people out. When I first encounter a new viewpoint or belief system, and new mind with a new way of seeing things, I try to understand them. I let them speak, I let explain their way of thinking, and I ask questions to clarify what they mean. When I think I understand them, I repeat back what they have said using a different metaphor or angle to see if the agree or correct me. Only once I think I understand their viewpoint fully, will I begin to critique it. If that person shows no willingness to explain contradictions or inconsistencies, or moral flaws in their belief system, *then* I start to loose respect for them. If I come to believe that someone has a seriously flawed way of seeing the world, and is unwilling to critically examine it or listen to others critiques of it, then I fail to see why I should respect that.
So, I don't think I do judge people on one belief, rather I judge them on their willingness to critique their own thinking or accept criticism from others.
If someone adheres to a delusion belief system like christianity, I might still assume that are charity-givers, that they pay their taxes and don't beat their children, and that therefore they are probably fundamentally nice people, BUT if I discover they are either attempting to spread their delusion belief system- say by indoctrinating children, or being all evangelical, AND they refuse to engage in meaningful discussion about the flaws in their beliefs, then I'm not going to respect them. If anything, I feel morally compelled to challenge them.
Regarding my parents specifically, I respect them for hundreds of things- as I mentioned some in my original post, hoping not to have to list them all, but obviously I respect and love them for the love they showed me, the support and care they gave me, for actually creating me in the first place, etc etc. But, I still have this problem regarding their religious views, this massive elephant in the room. Their acceptance of me being an atheist seems odd to me. Surely they think I'm going to hell, or at least have an increased risk of it? If they admit to not believing in god themselves, then it would be equivilent to admiting "sorry child, about all those silly stories and strange rules we told you about as a kid, sorry about being wrong about the meaning of life, and threatening you with eternal torture and all that."
Do I not have a right to challenge them about all those falsehoods? All that mind fucking? All those wasted sundays? Every 7th morning of my entire childhood? I know they didn't do any of that deliberately. I know they thought it was the truth - at least, I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they were devout christians, rather than secretly being a bit unsure, but still raising their child in it anyway..
I appreciate you taking the time to reply, but in essence you seem to have two points:
1- Wanting to clarify whether I respect them for all the other stuff they did for me. (I think I've addressed that.?)
2- I should just keep quite and try to push it to the back of my mind.
Well, I'v being doing that for many many years now, and this gulf has never been filled. I am not connecting to them and it is painful. I don't know if I can connect other ways, and I am trying to find ways to do that. But time is running out. The entire subject of religion and god- the most important thing in their life, is taboo. I can't say what I believe, and neither can they, so how can we possibly be close if such fundamental things as the existence of a god, separate us?
Does anyone else have any experience in my situation? has anyone ever de-converted their own parents?
cj - thanks for the book recommendations, Ill check em out when I can afford them. (might be a while)
I have read a little about the psychology of belief, and irrational thinking (we all do it, most of the time) but I hadnt seen that book yet, so thanks.
And yeah, you are right that they might not have a negative reaction to rejecting belief- it might make them very happy. But my experience was of rejecting it early in life, and Ive yet to hear much form older people who rejected it and had to deal with their relationship with their kids.
hmm maybe im operating on a little bad infomation. how old are your parents? you said approaching death so iv been assuming they are quite old and well approaching death quite rapidly. If thats the case really leave it alone and enjoy whatever time is left. But if thats not the case then yeah it changes things. But i do believe people do have the right to believe what they want and others do not have the right to hound after them to much because of it. Sure talk to them about it but if they not interested leave it alone. well whatever u do good luck. I dont even know what my parents believes, just not something i care about to much.
Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.
At least, that is where I found them. We have a great library system in Portland. If you live in a smaller town, try interlibrary loan. Often for $5 or free, you can borrow books from libraries around the world. Including universities and other places you might have had to pay a fee for the book if you just walked in the door. Then buy them later if you like and you have the spare change.
edit: A library card at your local county is often free or very low cost. You are probably paying taxes to the library already, so use the resource. I love libraries.
edit 2: did you know most libraries now have CDs, DVDs, and sometimes games? No extra charge to check them out, either.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Hello, lithic. Welcome to the forum.
In most of these types of cases, I would suggest that the person simply stayed quiet and, if they still lived with their parents, endured their religious environment until they could live on their own. Then, I would tell them to try to establish a decent relationship and just never mention atheism ever again. However, based on what you've written here, I think I can make an exception and say, yes, go for it!
In many cases, the religious can be so closed-minded that their relationships with their family members would be destroyed before they would even consider questioning their beliefs. Well...I'm not saying it's ever completely hopeless, but in a lot cases, it's just not a good idea, especially with kids that are still dependent. But, in your case, it sounds like your parents are pretty intelligent and willing to reflect on their beliefs.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Wow. I can relate to a lot here.
My parents are also very liberal Christians who take the "cream" of Christianity and idealise it.
I'm not quite as anti-theistic as you, but I do find myself cringing at some of the religious sentiments I hear.
Just like mine, your parents are scientifically capable and if they treated their religious beliefs scientifically then they would soon reject them.
However, in this complex world, we have complex ways of building up beliefs.
I suspect that they were Christian from an early age and have it strongly woven into their identity.
What's more, if they've devoted a lot of their time and resources into it, humans have a reluctance to drop beliefs they've "invested" in.
Lastly, we live a life in a world that can treat people harshly sometimes.
Faith can be many people's way of dealing with the shit that comes their way.
I still think that there are better alternatives to a religious belief, alternatives without the falsity, but religious belief still serves a purpose in people's lives.
My advice would be that the best kind of belief change comes through curiosity.
Let them start the conversations rather than being the "pusher" or "aggressor".
If it comes through their natural curiosity, it's more likely to foster the more positive consequences, and they'll find the transition as a natural step forward. They'd perhaps see their faith and church works as part of the path that brought them to their current enlightenment.
If the truth is forced on them hard and fast, I could see there being a bit of a crisis of identity and of what they've spent their life working for. You'd probably see more of the negative consequences that you mentioned.
I'm 37 and I have a 10 year old sister. I have had to watch her get "programmed". Actually watching it in action is appalling, she is taught that god and jesus are real and in some control of her life. My dad knows where I stand and if he got wind that I said anything to her, he would disown me. He is weird in that he claims to believe in evolution, that "god" planned it and we may have come from monkeys.
Actually he told me that he puts up with my atheism because he thinks I wont be a Dawkins or someone that will really make a difference in the atheist movement. In other words, someone who will have an effect on his religion in any way.
My dad has a problem with the fact that if he decides religion is bs, his parents would have lived a complete lie (gramps was a mason). It still irritates me when he brings up "god" or miracles or whatever, but he is not going to change so, either accept it or don't and move on.
We don't need to discuss my mom much, I don't maintain contact with her. She says a ufo abducted her and she has seen the loch ness monster..at possum kingdom lake and let me tell ya, this is a very short list.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin