Demon Possession/Exorcism
Posted on: May 22, 2010 - 3:50pm
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Demon Possession/Exorcism
Now I don't want any of you for a second to assume I believe in this concept. I am a very dedicated skeptic myself. I simply want to hear the opinions of educated people on the topic of exorcism, and the psychological side of it as well. I even plan on getting a few books on the topic in the near future, and wondered if anyone knew of any that had a mostly scientific and atheistic point of view. And just for your curiosity and entertainment, and for a hair-standing-on-the-back-of-your-neck-experience, I want you to do this.....Wait until the middle of the night when you're alone and have all the lights in the house turned of, then go to youtube.com and look up the audio recordings of the Exorcism of Anneliese Michel.
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whoops.
It is nothing more than a placebo superstition. No different than "lucky socks" or garlic to ward of vampires.
I know you intended this as an honest question, but it would be no different to us if you asked us, "How do you ward off the Dark Side of "The Force" to protect Luke Skywalker"?
The blunt answer without sugar coating it is simple "BULLSHIT"
Our species in it's history is notorious in filling in gaps where answers lack with crap.
It is nothing more than a reflection of the mundane human survival instinct in not wanting to die.
"If I do this, or do that, bad wont happen to me"
The reality is that every human will end up with the ultimate "bad luck" called death.
This is just our species making up shit to make them feel good so they don't have to face reality.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
My story is of my mother and sister. They had to tell me about the demon-possessed dress. Seems someone was wearing the dress and got sick. So they gave the dress to someone else who then also got sick. They all decided the dress was possessed and they tried to burn it. It was real hard to get it lighted and hard to keep the fire going. They had to use a whole can of lighter fluid. See, demons really exist.
And I said, ah give me a break, mom.
1. Almost all clothing now is treated with flame retardants.
2. Polyester is hard to burn, just like any plastic.
3. After the dress was burned, people still get sick.
Ghost stories are fun. I like to read and watch them, too. That freaky feeling you get is fun. It's still all baloney.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Play the marine storyline in the first avp game with the lights off. Much better effect, I promise.
I would also like to cite a horror movie that is truly frightening but I can't, none of them have bothered me since I saw John Carpenters "The Thing" when I was 10. Now it's not scary but at 10, man that dog kennel scene was some nightmare inducing stuff.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
First thing I notice, no impossible vocal chords, these sounds can be made by a woman. This corresponds to another thread I started "bat shit crazy theists." As can be seen there in people who TRULY believe they are possesed by the holy ghost and shake and role on the ground uncontrollably, you would think one who believes he is TRULY pocessed by a demon will also act accordingly as long as they are nuts enough to believe it. Let's look a little into her history:
Anneliese Michel
Anneliese Michel (September 21, 1952 – July 1, 1976) was a German Catholic woman who was said to be possessed by demons and subsequently underwent an exorcism. Two motion pictures, The Exorcism of Emily Rose and Requiem, are loosely based on Michel's story.
A devout girl, she tried to make reparations for the sins of wayward priests and drug addicts by sleeping on a bare floor in the dead of winter.
In 1968, when Anneliese was 16 and still in high school, she began to suffer from convulsions. Court findings had her experiencing her first epileptic attack in 1969.
Soon, Anneliese started experiencing hallucinations while praying.[1] She also began to hear voices, which told her that she was damned. By 1973 Anneliese was suffering from depression and considering suicide. Her behavior became increasingly bizarre; she tore off her clothes, ate coal and spiders off the floor, and licked up her own urine.
Anneliese was convinced that she had been possessed by several demons, including Lucifer, Judas Iscariot, Nero, Cain, Hitler, and Fleischmann, a disgraced Frankish Priest from the 16th century. She also mentioned a few other damned souls who had manifested themselves through her.
So now we know what kind of psiche were dealing with here. Someone like this is far far down the rabbit hole.
It was then that a neurologist at the Psychiatric Clinic Wurzburg diagnosed her with Grand Mal epilepsy.
A total of sixty-seven exorcism sessions were held, one or two each week, some lasting up to four hours
God is very efficient and effective.
At some point she began talking increasingly about dying to atone for the wayward youth of the day and the apostate priests of the modern church, and refused to eat.
On July 1, 1976, Anneliese Michel died in her sleep. The autopsy report stated that her death resulted from the malnutrition and dehydration due to almost a year of semi-starvation during which time the rites of exorcism were also performed
No magical/miracle death or exorcism here. Just a sick woman who abused herself, was surrounded by irrational people that fed her insanity, who became to weak from her self abuse and died.
In the real-life case of Anneliese Michel, which took place in 1978, there were four defendants, not just one. They were Father Arnold Renz, Pastor Ernst Alt, and Anneliese Michel's parents, Josef and Anna. All four were found guilty of negligent homicide and sentenced to six months in prison, suspended with three years' probation.
There must have been some substancial evidence the pastors and family weren't "all there", and made some really bad decisions taking care of this sick girl. Sad story, but nothing more than mental dellusion.
A way of explaining psychological abnormality (including psychosis) in a day and age when 'Psychology' wasn't even a word.
Protip: it is widely believed that many so-called "Werewolves" of yore are nothing more than schizophrenics and overactive imaginations becoming untamed. Regardless of the monster involved, human beings can do MANY strange, inexplicable (but not superhuman) things under the right conditions. Example: berserk vikings(!)
If you have enough seratonin, adrenalin, and noradrenaline present (NOT being reabsorbed) in your central nervous system, you aren't going to feel a slapshot fired into your arm, you you won't even notice the non-lethal noxious chemicals poured into the air to subdue you, you won't even notice your dislocated shoulder blade, but you will STILL be knocked out cold from law enforcement officers sending enough voltage through you.
This is a little inside 'secret' (though not much of a secret) known to most mental health professionals and law enforcement officials.
Anneliese Michel/Emily Blake belonged in a mental health facility, not in the care of some Catholic snake oil salesman.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Well, I am a psychiatric social worker. I deal with several people who are “screamers”. I have people who are tormented by Nazis, The Mafia, Voodoo Priests, Terrorists and so on. Demons are not one that I have run into just yet but if it ever happens, it will be exactly the same as the others.
Some people have serious problems in the brain that result in screaming.
I did watch a couple of those videos and they pretty much failed to tell me what I do not already know.
=
Two words: mental illness.
Well, the Viking berserkers had the combination of grog and Amanita Muscaria var. Muscaria to thank for the god like invincibility they felt.
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!
Posted today on Twitter from Sam Harris:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/22/us/22beliefs.html?ref=todayspaperwww.RichWoodsBlog.com
I quickly noticed a humongous error in your... understanding of history: there WAS NO grog in the era of Scandinavian vikings. End of story. Grog wasn't developed until the mid 19th century.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Well sooooorrryyy. I should have used the term booze, which I use interchangeably even though I know that grog was a specific drink.
Jeez! XD
If you want me to be specific, with the Vikings it was usually mead.
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!
I read that article that Rich Woods posted a link to. It deals with the topic of "demonic possessions." It is f 'd up that children are being labeled as being possessed by that woman. This is a good example of how mass delusion is dangerous.
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. - Carl Sagan
Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion. - School Superintendent on "The Simpsons" episode #1
What do you guys think would have happened to this girl hadn't she ever been exposed to the concept of "god"/magic/miracles/demons etc... I am no psychologists but I would assume someone like this has some sort of "difference" in there brain making them more susceptable to these things, religion didn't help and belief in "magic" eventually led to her death, but was religion the cause of her insanity? Or would she just have had such dellusions about believing she can fly, or being a vampire... if she was never indoctrinated?
If you're really interested, then I have been involved in a couple of exorcisms but it is quite rare in the western world. I have also been involved quite recently in a number of deliverances in homes where their children had got involved in ouija boards and such like.
One home I went to, the husband could see a black figure standing in the room and he had no belief in anything spiritual.
Another home I went to, they saw a young boy running up and down the stairs.
The one thing these people all had in common was that they weren't Christians or church goers or even believers in any after life.
Their houses are now at peace and all the disturbances have stopped.
Carrier of The Word Of God
I don't bloody believe this. This thread actually called up a demon-removal banner ad.
As for exorcism, like the psychiatric nurse said, nothing we haven't seen before and explained already.
Unfortunatly, no, not a joke. Just looking for attention. I suggest not giving him any.
Agreed
I don't believe in exorcism. From what I've read, it may only suppress the condition, which will return again. Even good old Jesus C. said, that a demon cast out will return and bring along seven new f(r)iends. People's mind is too holey for exorcism to work, you kick the demon from door and he'll get back through window. Suppressing symptoms is not gonna cure them.
Well, so what do I consider as cure for insanity or demon possesion? Sometimes head pills are necessary. But in light cases there is one sure curative:
Hard, dirty work. Stuff like planting trees, cleaning up the house, sport, work with clay or wood, and so on. One important remark: there must be no headphones with music. Specially not psychedelic music. All people that seriously dig into the demonic stuff, must get their hands dirty, to keep their sanity.
I'm gonna join a touristic club, didn't I say?
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUO8Id4ziWA&feature=fvhl
"Wood + alphabet = evil"
Yeah! Like... maybe too much dopamine in the brain???!
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Black coat on rack in darkened room?
Young child behaving like a... young child?
Please don't tell me they paid you for these "deliverances".
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I posted examples of people under duress getting hysterical, screaming and getting stupid over something. I think most of your exorcism carp is based on "I'm weird and I want attention" syndrome. Either way it's all bs because demons don't exist. It's all in your head.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
No demons? Man, that's a bummer!
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Well, that is not a question that is going to be easy to answer. However, I will take a stab at this.
First off, I do not have access to the medical files. So knowing what the doctors had going on is not possible. We do know that the court found that she probably had grand mal epilepsy. Given that from the couple of videos I saw, she appeared to be awake but not really very aware of the reality of her surroundings suggests a strong connection to her temporal lobes.
Allow me to digress for a moment (this will become clear shortly):
If she had lacked the specific indoctrination, she would have found a focus for what she was going through. If she had lived long enough to have seen Ghost Busters, she could have just as easily locked on Zool and the Stay-Pufft Marshmallow Man.
Back on track, temporal lobe disturbances have been shown under laboratory conditions to relate to the same sort of perceptual disturbances that I see in those videos. Even Michael Shermer has reported the sensation of non-coporeal presence when his temporal lobes were electrically stimulated.
I also suspect that she may have been affected by adolescent onset schizophrenia. Epilepsy does not tend to result in people eating bugs off the floor. If so, she may have suffered from additional delusions attendant to the epilepsy.
In the early 70's, there were medications that might have lessened the positive symptoms of schizophrenia but finding the right drugs for any given patient is, even today, a hit or miss proposition. Would doctors have been able to treat her properly at the time? Nobody will ever know but they might have hit on some particular medical cocktail that would have made her life very different. Or not.
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Maybe I'm wrong, and singing in unison along with signs of the cross cures it. dur