Just Ask Grandpa - A Christian answers tough questions and debunks common myths
Offline Way too many "delusional myths", and unanswered questions on this site. One cannot rationally disbelieve something unless they have a clear picture of what it is that they do not believe. Since I do not see these myths and false perceptions answered properly in terms of simple reasoning I shall attempt to do it myself.
Myth #1. God will burn "sinners" in "HELL" throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. This is not supported in the bible. It is merely a false doctrine that entered the church during the dark ages. It has it's roots in paganism. Unfortunately most Christians still believe this myth. Ultimately those who choose to accept Gods gift of eternal life will go on to live forever in a world without all the suffering and horrors of this world. Those who do not accept His gift will cease to exist and have nothing to do with God as they have chosen and wished for. Sounds pretty fair to me!
If God were indeed to burn anybody throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity (including the devil) He would be the most terrible monster one could imagine. I myself would join the movement in defying and blasting God. Fortunately we have a loving creator God that will not and would not do that.
Rather than writing a 20 page study on the topic of death and hell, I will just give a website that those interested can visit that will clearly and definitively clear this myth up. It is hell truth.com.
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So when I die, I will stop existing?
How is this a problem?
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The 1st commandment says, "Have no other god before me." Who are these other gods in compitition with your god?
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Yea this is pretty much what I imagine for everyone, if they believe in a fairy tale or not. You can have faith that the moon will throw tootsie pops at the earth, doesn't mean it's going to happen.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
That does infer that there are other gods potentially equal too said god. Honestly I think it could read "thou shalt have no man made religions before this one." and it would be the same exact animal.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
When you die you do not go on to burn 4-ever. Cease to exist is just a choice. I agree - not a problem. Just fair.
That brings us to myth #2. That faith is believing something without, or regardless of evidence. Faith is just the opposite. It is a loving, trust relationship built on evidence and experience. Faith that is not based on solid evidence is no faith at all.
Now explain said "evidence".
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Is this really a serious question or are you just farting around. God does not want us to worship a chunk of wood or stone like some kind of idiot. This one really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out.
I already know what kind of evidence you have, but I would call it far from "solid" and I would argue that I have as much or perhaps more evidence that the abrahamic god you worship does not exist. I could base my own observations on the same ones you make, it would be in the interpretation and realization of man's personal cravings and the willingness to fully comprehend said desires.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Explain evidence is huge in scope, and could take hundreds and maybe thousands of pages to do in depth so I will be as brief as possible.
God says "come let us reason together"
God claims to be able to see the future and predict it.
A good study into bible prophecy will confirm that God can indeed predict the future with amazing accuracy. If God can see the future than this is evidence that He does exist, and is indeed supernatural. A good study on prophecy is too involved to do here. If you really are interested in discovering for yourself google Kenneth Cox Ministries and order a prophecy dvd set and evaluate the evidence yourself.
There is also plenty of scientific evidence. The only viable explanation for our origins is intelligent design. Evolution certainly does not hold water. It defies both good science and common sense.
Before the time of Christ the bible predicted the fall of the roman empire, that it would be broken up into the 10 nations that now make up Western Europe, that is would not be united again, that rulers would intermarry in attempts to unite Europe... That's just a wee little particle of the evidence.
The bible also predicted several cities that would be destroyed and never rebuilt including ancient Babylon. If you want to disprove God all you have to do is get a group of atheist together and build a settlement on the site of ancient Babylon in Iraq. That would disprove the existence of God.
Would you mind discussing prophecies that did not come true? Would you also mind discussing how Jesus was a prophecy MADE to come true, even noted years after his death? Considering Jesus is the main focus of the new testament, this would seem to have serious import.
Nostradamus made some predictions that came true as well, is he a prophet?
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
You are right to say that we have a strong tendency to believe what we want to. That is biblical. It is folly to believe you know what evidences I have for believing. I can say also that I know what reasons you have for not believing. I have read much of the "psycho-babel" posted on this site. Much of it is people moaning about God not solving our problems here. Much of it is the asking of really dumb questions like "why doesn't God do...or does He do..." Why strain at the proverbial gnat and swallow the camel? You really don't get the big picture. Don't get me wrong. I have also read some pretty good logical arguments against the existence of God. I appreciate and respect these comments.
I am not aware of prophesies that did not come true. As for Jesus prophecies MADE to come true that is also a false notion?? It is an unsubstantiated claim. I have not studied Nostradamus, so I can not comment on that. I can only ask if his prophecies were specific or vague, and what percentage of them actually came true and hope for an honest response. If his prophecies were specific, and came true 100% of the time it would appear that he was indeed some kind of a prophet. It would certainly be basis to take him very seriously.
Daniel 12:2 (King James Version)
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 5:22 (King James Version)
22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mark 9:44 (King James Version)
44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Luke 16:19-26 (King James Version)
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Revelation 20:10 (King James Version)
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Many hundreds of millions of christians disagree with this one. Why should we believe you over them? Even better, why should we believe any of you?
And you have an impartial viewpoint?
Perhaps the words of Matthew quoting Jesus as judge in Matt 25:31-45 contribute somewhat to this view.
In contrast:
Matthew 13:42 only states that those that offend or work iniquity shall be cast into a furnace of fire and there will be wailing & gnashing of teeth. It's not clear if this is ongoing or is the fear imposed prior to them being barbecued.
Revelation 19 also is unclear as to what is really meant. The wicked are cast into the Lake of Fire but so too is hell and death.
Clearly these verses are open to interpretation. You have looked at it in one way and others have taken a different perspective.
John Paul II in commentary made it clear that hell was being out of the grace of God. Again an interpretation.
Yahweh in the OT made it quite clear he was a vicious monster. Killing all in the world but Noah; killing many Egyptians especially 1st born babies; killing whole populations including babies in Canaan; killing many of the tribe of Benjamin; testing Job and killing his servants & family; etc.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Again, this topic, like most is far too involved to be answered in a short blog. That's why I listed the website that goes into is in detail. In brief, the word(s) translated forever are much like we use the word today. Have you ever stood in line forever to use the bathroom? Are you still there? ie - a very long time. What about the common txt term bff. Best friends forever. Do people really believe that they will be friends throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. No, they simply mean for the rest of their life. Or until they cease to exist. This should not be hard to understand. Go to the website. You will see for yourself what the true teaching of the bible is on this one.
Once again, you fail to see the bigger picture. Oh what a small perspective we so often have. There were many things that God had to do out of necessity in order to accomplish His ultimate will, and the ultimate good for the entire universe. This sometimes included acts that we see as barbaric and terrible. Put into the eternal perspective, accomplishing the ultimate end of pain and suffering, these acts can be understood as acts of ultimate love for mankind. I know that you are probably not capable of comprehending this right now. That is also biblical. There is a book that does a really good job of putting things into perspective, and helping people understand the bigger picture and purposes of God. It is called the great controversy. If you really want to understand why God did this or that get the book. Otherwise you can remain in the dark, and in ignorance continue to shake your fist at God for doing things that you fail to understand.
Some prophecies that did not come true:
Ezekiel predicted Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre. Didn't happen.
He then predicted he would conquer Egypt. Didn't happen.
Isaiah predicted Hezekiah would live 15 more years but it was only 3 years.
He also predicted the imminent death of Sennacherib 2 Kings 19:7, it happens 20 years later.
2 Samuel 7:12-17 claims that the kingdom established by God through David will last forever. Exactly who has been king since Nebuchadnezzar gutted Judah? Who is the King of Judah today?
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
You are wrong. If by the Bible, you mean the OT, then you're right. In the OT the punishment for not brown nosing up to the invisible sky daddy enough is just death. If by the Bible you mean NT then you're wrong.
Ok, where's your evidence... We've been waiting for thousands of years for you faith heads to produce some evidence... we're still waiting...
Actually it's a real question, since it hints at there being many gods, thus throwing this monotheistic idea into the waste bin. And why is it any more ridiculous to worship a piece of wood then an invisible sky daddy which has no evidence for it's existence. At least the piece of wood really exists.
Then do it. You say there is all this evidence... then please tell. We're waiting...
It doesn't take magic to know that all empires fall eventually. Just saying that is evidence to you shows how low you set the bar for "evidence".
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Wow. "Evolution certainly does not hold water" you say. That's funny, since all reliable evidence points to it being the only scientific explanation for the variety of life on earth. Just shows how much you know about evidence or science. "Evolution defies good science"? WTF? So what subjects are your scientific degrees in for you to know what "good science" is?
Nope, not biblical, it's BIOLOGICAL!
Why would that be? Many of us have read the Holy Babble as well as many other "holy" books, so I have a good idea of what kinds of things you would describe as "evidence" for your irrational beliefs.
In short, you talk about having evidence on your side, yet you never state what evidence you have that supports your claims. I wonder why that is. Vague prophesies about empires eventually falling apart and cities eventually being deserted are not prophesy. That's just obvious. If I wrote a book saying that kind of stuff, would you worship me? It would be as stupid as worshiping the words of misogynistic, bronze age, goat herders.
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!
Are you implying that we tend to believe what we want to because the bible says so? I'm relatively certain people who have never heard of the bible would tend to believe what they wanted too.
As for prophecies that did not come true, you should do more research. We tend also to ignore facts that do not fit in the scheme of our own wishful thinking.
Look into why the Jews do not accept Jesus as their "king" or messiah. If he had met all of the prophetic requirements how would this make sense? very simple, a new religion was established because the old testament was dated and mean. It is pretty easy to make things fit prophetically when you have read the previous version and have a hand in writing the new. We have yet to even establish that the actual persona of jesus even existed himself, though I have stated before there likely was a man who claimed to be the son of a god, there always is, only nowdays they go to state funded hospitals.
Once again, the fall of the roman empire, who didn't see that comming? I have not studied babylon much, but I have a bit of knowledge on the romans.
How many other cities fell that were not mentioned in the bible?
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
So in the attack on Jericho, god commanding the Israelites to kill every man,woman, and child except the virgin girls who were to be raped and used as sexual slaves was a good thing? If you think so then you are a sick human being. There's no amount of rationalization that can turn those evil genocidal actions into a good thing. If you think that was a good thing, you would have loved Germany 1933-44.
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!
Big Picture?
The god Yahweh was a schizophrenic who had playthings he made to who he gave inadequate instruction so he could torture them.
Isaiah 45:7 makes it clear that he takes liability for all.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Obviously it takes a lot of complex argument to find a way to obscure the plain meaning of the text , to try and justify the 'meaning' you feel more comfortable with - we know this.
The response that "If God were indeed to burn anybody throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity (including the devil) He would be the most terrible monster one could imagine. I myself would join the movement in defying and blasting God" merely emphasises our point.
You will need to provide evidence for the assertion that "Fortunately we have a loving creator God that will not and would not do that." The evidence of the world beyond the Bible is entirely consistent with a non-loving God, if one does exist, because of all the natural disasters and diseases and parasites and frailties we are subject to, even those who are children, or who have lead a blameless life.
#1 is the ordinary use of the term to apply to faith in another person, #2 is the religious usage - note the phrase I underlined.
Serious argument does not consist of dodges ( "it would require many pages to explain this" ), naked assertions ( "God is loving" ), or redefining the meanings of words...
As for 'prophecy":
Didn't happen.
Of course that's the OT, which doesn't count ....
How about all the references to the "end times":
What's is more likely, that they really believed it was going to happen within a generation, as per: "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation", or that those words actually can be accurately translated as "more than 2000 years" ?
Now can you point to a clear example of an unambiguously fulfilled prophecy?
Intelligent Design - if an intelligence is required to create intelligent and complex beings, how did God come about??
What is more plausible, that complex intelligent beings can evolve from simpler things, or that a super intelligent being can have just always existed??
We see every day things spontaneously becoming more organized and complex, from a tiny seed growing into a giant tree, to an intricate crystal structure forming from formless liquid solution, clouds of gas and dust in space forming stars and planetary systems, so non-intelligent 'design' violates no observation or principle.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Hebrews 11:1 describes faith as; "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." It doesn't say anything about solid evidence or a loving relationship, its just being certain what we hope for and what we do not see.
And the big picture here about god having to kill all the people for the "big plan and love for mankind", is just a more pleasing way to say the end justifies the means. Don't you think a all powerful god could come up with a better way to show his love for his people and his big plan?
Anarchism is the only philosophy which brings to man the consciousness of himself; which maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination. Anarchism is therefore the teacher of the unity of life; not merely in nature, but in man.
Emma Goldman
Let me get this straight. You're trying to convince us that torture is not monstrous so long as its duration is less than an eternity? Doesn't seem like a very good argument. Torture is monstrous no matter how long it lasts. Especially when the crime can be boiled down to not being born in the right place to be raised believing in the right god. So I have to ask, is that what you believe? Or is the torture restricted to just those who have committed heinous crimes during their lifetime?
Why would a god said to be all knowing, all powerful and one who detests evil so completely have to use evil to achieve his ends? Or do you not ascribe these traits to your god? Why doesn't he just end all pain and suffering now? Why wait and commit evil in the mean time? Better yet, why create pain and suffering at all? Are you saying your god had no choice but to create pain and suffering and evil to fulfill his ends? Or did he not create them and is simply a victim of a system he finds himself in with no power against it, only able to operate within it? And do the ends always justify the means? Do you apply this philosophy to humans or just your god? I do look at the bigger picture. And that's where it breaks down.
It's all well and good to direct us to a book (and I may well read it), but you called your thread "Just Ask Grandpa." So that's what I'm doing. I'm not asking the author of the Great Controversy what he believes and how he defends his beliefs (I didn't see where you mentioned an author name). I want to know what Grampster believes and how he defends it. I love to learn how people think. How people reason things out for themselves.
Rill
I'll take your word that it says something like this somewhere. Now, why should we believe that it is anything else than wishful thinking in written form? Motivational literature by oppressed Jews for oppressed Jews? They would be aware that old empires fell, it's not really prophesy wishing the same thing would happen to the current oppressors, is it?
It is not prophesy that empires will eventually fall. To count as prophecy, some more specific account of the manner and/or time of the fall would be required.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Are you doing the usual religious thing of purposefully ambiguating definitions of certain words to suit your particular prejudice? What exactly do you mean by "evidence"?
If, for example, your faith includes a belief in dead messiahs coming back to life after 72 hours, then what evidence supports this assumption? The evaluation of evidence for something is a subjective procedure and fuels speculation but does not in itself lead to certainty. The evaluation of evidence of something is rather more objective and can be subjected to testing by others.
That you call this evidence "solid" suggests the latter, so I for one would dearly love to see it.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
The book of Exodus by itself is sufficient to show that the God of the Bible is an immature, narcissistic sociopath. If you add to that, Genesis, Leviticus, Numbers, Job, Revelation, etc. , this is clearly one of the most abominable characters in all fiction. So, whether or not you believe in hell doesn't really change the fact that you believe in a rather evil and stupid God. For that, you would have to throw away much if not most of the OT and some of the NT.
It is true that for most of the OT, there does not seem to be a hell. Instead, God kills all the sinners in creative ways, and they simply disappear forever. However, there do seem to be verses supporting the existence of hell in the NT; I've never seen a Christian adequately explain this.
So, if hell is a "myth," it is only a myth for the believers, not for us. We don't believe in hell. I believe that the Bible is inconsistent when it comes to hell. I sometimes assume that hell exists for the sake of argument, to assert that it is unjust. That's all. By calling hell a myth on this site, from our perspective, all you're doing is stating that you're among the minority of Christians that don't believe in hell. And, you are certainly not the first Christian on this website to assert that hell is a myth nor are you even the most informed of the bunch. Many have come before you.
I see mostly appeals to emotion, some implied moral arguments, and a few verses about dying. Where, on this website, does it actually address the verses that mention hell?
Again, if it is a myth, it is not our myth. You are not understanding our perspective; we have a much better grasp of the issue than you think we do.
"Faith" is a word. It has multiple meanings. It can mean whatever we choose it to mean. In the context of Christianity, many if not most Christians explicitly define faith as "believing something without, or regardless of evidence." If you don't want to call it faith, you can call it something else, but they admittedly believe things independent of evidence.
That said, since you have "solid evidence" for the truth of Christianity, would you care to present an example of this evidence?
Awwww, you're a Creationist. That's disappointing; I figured you were a relatively clear-thinking Christian up to this point. Are you Young Earth too? Let me guess, micro but not macro? Can you explain observed instances of speciation? Ring species?
I do not think you understand evolution, and I do not think you know what good science is or have any scientific training whatsoever. I have met very few Creationists who do.
Common sense? Many fields of science, including special relativity, quantum mechanics, and evolution, to an extent, defy common sense, which is a major reason why the masses have such a hard time accepting these things. Common sense is useless when you're told that time is relative to your frame of reference, the act 'observation' collapses physical states, and that we share a common ancestor with pineapples. You have to use reason and evidence.
Those aren't very hard predictions. In fact, they're essentially inevitable. All empires and cities get destroyed eventually. And rulers have occasionally intermarried at periods throughout history, although not as much in recent times. Btw, there are more than 10 countries in Western Europe.
Lol. A simple wikipedia search shows that there have already been efforts to restore or build on ancient Babylon, so according to you, the existence of God has just been disproven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon
"In 1983, Saddam Hussein started rebuilding the city on top of the old ruins (because of this, artifacts and other finds may well be under the city by now), investing in both restoration and new construction."
Panoramic view over the reconstructed city of Babylon
"US forces under the command of General James T. Conway of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force were criticized for building the military base "Camp Alpha", comprising among other facilities a helipad, on ancient Babylonian ruins following the 2003 invasion of Iraq."
Of course, I'm not going to hold my breath. It's pretty obvious that you'll either avoid this post or find some silly excuse to weasel out of this. After all, you don't have to convince me. You just have to convince yourself.
But, that's just the tip of the iceberg. There's an extensive list of potentially failed prophecies here.http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html
And, would you be kind enough to post or cite the Bible verses that you're referring to so that we can point out your dubious interpretations?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
You are not capable of comprehending it either, of course. No one is, because it doesn't make any sense. Every Christian admits that the world seems to be one that doesn't jive with a loving, omnipotent God, but they are able to dismiss by stating that they don't comprehend it. "Hey, there must some good reason that God allows all this evil to exist in the world. I just don't know the reason. I'll just have faith and trust him." It's an intellectual cop-out.
Ah, the old, read the Bible argument. Many of us are ex-Christians. Some of us know the Bible a lot better than you do.
I've read the Bible too. I'm looking at my Bible right now.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
As a non-Christian, I really do not care if the Bible supports this or not. What I do care about is the fact that hundreds of millions of Christians believe that this is true. I will continue to approach them as if they hold this belief. This myth should be directed at Christians who hold this belief, not atheists.
You don't have to convince us that Yahweh won't burn people in hell because we are not the ones making that claim.
First of all, I don't like being blatantly lied to. Second of all, I find it very insulting that you assume I am not capable of using a dictionary.
I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.
I am well aware that you can use the dictionary. Can you reason? Unfortunately the "goat herders" that wrote the bible did not happen to have a copy of one of our dictionaries. It doesn't take a doctorate in theology or greek to figure this one out. I was reading in Romans chapter 11 about how faith was credited as righteousness. It talks about Cain, Enoch, Abraham, and others. In each situation none of those who acted on "faith" were without a past experience and evidence of the existance or character of God. Faith was trust based on evidence and experience. The apostile Paul repeatedly reasoned with people to prove that Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus called out for people to accept him not for his claims to be the messiah, but for the "evidence" of the miracles he was performing.
A young child may jump off of a high wall into his fathers arms. He may never have done this before. He probably has never witnessed his father catching someone else. Yet, he still has "faith" that his father will catch him. What is this faith based on? It is based on the evidences he has seen that his father loves him, is trustworthy and capable of protecting him. This is faith.
Again, to believe something without reason is foolishness.
Faith without evidence and reason is no faith at all. "Blatantly lied to"?? No. Just good old common sense!
I believe you said that there have been "efforts" to rebuild Babylon. The prophecy did not say there would not be efforts. And as for a temporary military base, the prophecy does state that there will be temporary dwellings i.e. tents etc. This is a long way from a rebuilt, and functioning city.
When we read the accounts in the old testament about God destroying people, men, women, children, babies etc, we usually make the mistake of making assumptions that are not necessarily true. We assume a normal, happy, healthy culture with somewhat reasonable behaviors. Maybe those cultures that God commanded to be destroyed were so totally degenerated by incest and disease that their very existence was a danger to those around them? What if they were so depraved that to allow them to continue would be more horrible than to wipe them out? There could be good reasons that we don't know about. We cannot assume that since we do not understand that there is no good explanation.
As for the subject of "torture", punishment is not monstrous so long as it is just. If you can't swallow that you would get along just fine in San Quentin. They also believe that they should not be punished justly for crimes committed. To burn one in "Hell" for ceaseless ages of eternity could never be just. That would indeed beyond question be truly monstrous. I think that we can both agree on that.
Countless millions of people have been victimized and brutally treated and it looks like those who have victimized them will not ever have to give account for or pay for what they have done. God simply tells us that "all" will give account one day for their horrific deeds. Victims can have the assurance that justice will prevail in the end. Not everlasting torture, but true and fair justice.
As for evil, I do not believe that God is it's author. That in itself is a whole other subject. I will try to address this one later when I have a little more time.
Why would they need a dictionary, they had the guidance of "god" in their writings right?
But has the child good reason to place so much faith in his father's ability to catch him? What you have described is a belief based on very little information subjectively analysed and with a lot of wishful thinking on the analyser's part, one that not every child would share incidentally and which others may share but later have painful reason to regret. If you propose it as an analogy for faith in a deity then you have actually provided one which is uncannily accurate, though maybe not in the sense you had hoped. This is indeed faith, but it is by no means either intelligent or justified on the basis of whatever perceived evidence may have prompted it.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Funny that.
The only proof of their experiences and evidences of God are in a book that was compiled long after these people supposedly existed.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Since you did not cite anything specific, I can wonder if your so called prophecy was actually Isaiah 13:20. That actually say that there will be no tents and nobody will ever go there again. Since there was an army base there for a while, I tend to think that that so-called prophecy breaks down.
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So what about:
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
And this is a christian speaking? Have you even a notion of how offensive to even the most basic of humanitarian principles this glib justification for mass murder is? What "good reason" could possibly exist that we don't know about for wiping out whole communities even down to their babies?
Are you sane?
Shit like that gives me the creeps, and explains a lot about why religion must be regarded ultimately as a danger to humanity. For all the stuff about love and salvation spouted by the self-proclaimed "righteous", one doesn't have to scratch very far to find the true degenerate evil which lies behind their irrational reasoning.
You're doing a great job in advertising this dangerous stupidity. Keep it up.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Only on a few special occasions did the god Yahweh bloody his own hands and those accounts are hearsay. In all others his pawns the Hebrews or Israelites are the one running swords through babies and women. Of course if the women were virgins they were saved to be raped and held as slaves or wives.
Yahweh is alleged to have flooded the entire world though the accounts by the Sumerians dating at least 2,000 years earlier credit the gods An and Enlil.
The unsupportable Exodus has several instances where the god Yahweh supposedly kills.
1-1st born -no other support other than the mythical story in Exodus
2-The Red Sea- No proof it actually occurred and no 1st hand accounts.
Sodom & Gomorrah - No proof it happened at all and if it did, possible natural explanations abound - Thera, a comet, a large meteor.....
Maybe these cultures had riches and goods the invading horde of Hebrew savages wanted.
The Catholic Church still has the office of the Inquisitor, it has a new name however. You seem to have a perfect fit to be an extremely successful Inquisitor too bad you weren't born doing the Middle Ages as you could have put your ability to far better pursuit back then compared to today.
And a large portion of these victims have the Church to thank for sending them to the hereafter.
Apparently you must consider Isaiah a false prophet. See Isaiah 45:7
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
The most specific prophecy to Babylon's destruction is Isaiah 13. Isaiah claims the Medes would utterly destroy Babylon. He predicted extreme violence and death, v18. In v19, "And Babylon the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency shall be as when God overthrew Sodom & Gomorrah." - KJV
The problem with this prophecy is it did not happen that way.
Babylon welcomes Cyrus with green twigs and leaves as a liberator, not a conqueror. The king of Babylon, Nabondius who isn't even mentioned in the Bible flees and eventually surrenders.
Babylon is used by the Persians as a capitol city and later on by Alexander the Great who dies there in 329 BCE.
This all invalidates Isaiah's false prophecy, one of many he screwed up.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Get ready for a game of "What that verse really means " as explained by the Christian theist.
The irony here is that the atheist ( Bob ) is actually the one who functions as a biblical literalist while the Christian will ( most likely ) attempt to reject the obvious meaning and twist it around to suit his doctrinal whims....
Of course the original authors didn't have a copy of one of our dictionaries. Our language didn't even exist when they were alive. However, the current modern dictionaries were heavily influenced by the English translations of the Bible. If the writers of the English versions of the Bible meant faith to mean "belief based on past experience and evidence," that is what our dictionaries would say. Or, at the very least there would be a reference to that definition as an archaic meaning of the word. However, no common dictionaries possess any such reference.
Romans 11 does not talk about Cain or Enoch and only briefly mentions Abraham.
I find it very strange that you mention the apostle Paul. In hebrews 11:1 he defines faith as a way of knowing things when there is a lack of evidence.
Also, in this chapter, unlike Romans 11, he does talk about the faith of Cain Enoch and Abraham. However, he does not describe any evidence or experience that lead them to their faith. All he does is describe ways in which the Bible says they had have benefited from faith after they already became faithful.
I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.
First of all, I asked you to cite or post the Bible verse that makes this prophecy. Until you show me where the Bible states that Babylon will never be rebuilt, other than "temporary dwellings," you might as well be pulling this out of your ***.
And that comes to my second point; since I don't know what the Bible verse is, I can only go off what you're pulling out of your ***. Then, you can ad hoc out of my responses just like you're doing now to save your prophecies from falsification. What you originally wrote was, "if you want to disprove God all you have to do is get a group of atheist together and build a settlement on the site of ancient Babylon in Iraq. That would disprove the existence of God." This implies that someone would essentially disprove the prophecy by simply gathering a few friends and going on a camping trip. You intentionally described the prophecy this way to make it sound really easy to falsify. However, when I presented the facts on the issue, you stated that it was not a permanent city and that the prophecy actually predicted such a thing would happen! This means that your original offer is false unless the settlement becomes a permanent city. That is extremely misleading.
When does efforts to rebuild Babylon become rebuilt Babylon? You know this an actual picture of the restored structures, right? What's going to count as rebuilding Babylon to you, a city the size of New York with a population of over 1 million people living in mud-brick buildings, with a Middle Eastern culture?
Perhaps you should make your prophecy more precise so that you can't just ad hoc at will? No city lasts forver. What counts as permanent? What counts as s city? What counts as rebuilding Babylon?
You do realize this is a double-edged sword, don't you? If you make your prophecy much harder to falsify, then it is also a much suckier prophecy. As it is, your prophecy has already gone from not sucky to fairly sucky, and you have the potential to make this prophecy so sucky that it's not even worth mentioning.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Ah, thanks for find it.
"She will never be inhabited or lived in through all generations; no Arab will pitch his tent there, no shepherd will rest his flocks there." Isaiah 13:20 - NIV
Well, now that I have the actual Bible verse instead of just gramp's unsupported blabberings, it's pretty clear that this prophecy is long falsified. I wonder if he can come up with a weird response to this.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
When compared against the confident tone of the OP, gramster's responses seem to be pretty lame. I was hoping for something a bit more thought through.
Instead he's an anti-evolutionist/ID-er...
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
another ironic point is that a typical jewish exegete, who actually has a thorough grounding in hebrew, would have no problem with the literal meaning of this verse. both the talmud and the kabbalistic writings expound in great detail on precisely how god creates evil and furthermore created man with both a good and evil impulse (yetzer ha-tov and yetzer ha-ra, respectively), which can both--surprise, surprise--be used in god's service. as the centuries have gone by and they've lived through shit like pogroms, deportations, and the holocaust, the jews have lost interest in trying to argue for how "good" their god is (actually, they were never particularly interested in it). instead, they can be surprisingly forthright about the picture the hebrew bible paints: god is someone you shouldn't piss off, and then maybe you'll be all right...
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Gramster, evolution is common sense. What is so hard to understand about the fact that the copying of DNA when cells reproduce is not quite perfect? That's all that's required for evolution to work.
Unless you are really thinking of the origin of life itself. Even that is not so implausible, now that its been shown that RNA, the most basic self-replicating molecule, could have formed spontaneously on the early earth.
Once you have replication, evolution can start to work. It is really pretty straightforward - bad changes will die off, good ones will tend to survive.
We also know from computer work that evolutionary type processes, ie random changes from which we pick the ones which work best, can actually solve design problems too hard for conscious design.
its all very simple and obvious - evolution is a far more rational explanation for the varieties of life, even explains the occasional silly design 'decision', like our back-to-front retina, and the laryngeal nerve connecting our brain to our larynx that goes all the way down to our chest and back because it started out on the wrong side of the aorta. Even in the giraffe! For that matter, why has the giraffe got the same number of bones in its neck as a mouse (seven), whereas a tiny bird can have 14?
We understand how the step-by-step, blind process of evolution could produce those anomalies, but they would not make sense if an 'intelligent' designer was involved.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology