original sin
Offline quick little practice in logic: adam and eve committed the original sin by going against God's word and eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eating the fruit of the tree i assume gave them knowledge of good and evil. So it is implied that beforehand they did not know what is good and what is evil. so how can they have known that god is good and they going against his word is evil until after they ate the fruit. so really the original sin was carried out in ignorance. doesnt seem very fair to me or is God allowed to punish you for sins you did not know you were committing?
I Am My God
The absence of evidence IS evidence of absence
- Login to post comments
Offline Furthermore, i'm about ready to stop bothering with conversations with you. You contradict yourself too much for ke to patiently deal with. You state one thing and then turn around and state the exact opposite. Go read your bible cover to cover and do some scientific research on evolution, fossils and so on. I even gave you a fish with legs to google. Where do you think these fossils come from Lee? Do you think they are man made or what?
I understqnd this must be hard for you. When I did try to believe in god, i wanted explanations for everything. Which is partly the reason I became an atheist. Seriously though, do some research because you're making yourself look uneducated about the bible and science.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
- Login to post comments
Offline See? You are the one that's wrong. If god gave his son jesus to die so that we could be forgiven for our sins through christianity then christianity in fact did get rid of sin. Your take on christianity isn't even logical. I don't believe in the bible story but at least I know how to make sense of it.
Christianity died on a cross? No, Christ died on a cross! We can be forgiven for our sins through Christ's shedding of blood. If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Romans 10:9-10
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
- Login to post comments
Offline rebecca.williamson wrote:See? You are the one that's wrong. If god gave his son jesus to die so that we could be forgiven for our sins through christianity then christianity in fact did get rid of sin. Your take on christianity isn't even logical. I don't believe in the bible story but at least I know how to make sense of it.Christianity died on a cross? No, Christ died on a cross! We can be forgiven for our sins through Christ's shedding of blood. If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Romans 10:9-10
Ugh! Nevermind Lee. I can't have a conversation with someone that doesn't use their brain nor any logic. Not to be disrespectful, but I have a really hard time lettinv someone tell me I don't use any logic when I clearly have while they don't even bother to think things out and use logical explanetion themselves.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
- Login to post comments
Offline rebecca.williamson wrote:See? You are the one that's wrong. If god gave his son jesus to die so that we could be forgiven for our sins through christianity then christianity in fact did get rid of sin. Your take on christianity isn't even logical. I don't believe in the bible story but at least I know how to make sense of it.Christianity died on a cross? No, Christ died on a cross! We can be forgiven for our sins through Christ's shedding of blood. If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Romans 10:9-10
That is a deeply immoral idea, that we can be absolved from our sins merely for sucking up to a God figure, rather than by actually seriously trying to make amends to the people we have harmed by our actions, or their friends and family. And that we should base such ideas on the primitive, pagan idea that 'shedding of blood' is the key to appeasing the angry God(s) I find also deeply offensive.
Yet another aspect of Christian belief that discredits it of any moral claims, along with the shit about 'original sin' and punishment of someone's descendants for the victimless 'sin' of disobedience to authority, something that would have so justified Hitler's deputies claims they were "just following orders".
Your religion disgusts me.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
- Login to post comments
Offline rebecca.williamson wrote:See? You are the one that's wrong. If god gave his son jesus to die so that we could be forgiven for our sins through christianity then christianity in fact did get rid of sin. Your take on christianity isn't even logical. I don't believe in the bible story but at least I know how to make sense of it.Christianity died on a cross? No, Christ died on a cross! We can be forgiven for our sins through Christ's shedding of blood. If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Romans 10:9-10
And how did Christ come to die on the cross as an atonement for all? Because Paul (in his epistles that he actually wrote) and his converts who wrote the Gospels (who had Paul's work in front of them as they wrote) made the rabbi Jesus into a god that was comparable to the savior-myths that Paul (the pagan) grew up with.
Next time, read the Bible. Don't just accept it or what you're told about it.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
- Login to post comments
Offline Ooohh, you actually responded to me. Okay then, can you explain these verses for me:
- "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works." Matthew 16:27
"For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2:21-25
Again, nice cherry pickin'!! You have to read verses 14-26 to understand the context of what James is saying. James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith, verse 14. He immediately gives an example of what true and false faiths are. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is, verses 15-17. The he gives an example of the type of faith that isn't that much different from the faith of demons, verse 19. Finally, he gives examples of living faith by showing Abraham and Rahab as the type of people who demonstrated their faith by deeds.
James is examining two kinds of faith, one that leads to good works and one that does not. One is true, the other is false. One is dead, the other is alive. Therefore, Faith without works is dead. This is why in the middle of the section on faith and works, verse 19, "You believe that God is one. You do well, the demons also believe, and shudder." James says this because the demons believe in God, that is, they have faith. But the faith they have is useless. It does not result in appropriate works. Their faith is only a mental acknowledgement of God's existence.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
- Login to post comments
Offline Lee2216 wrote:rebecca.williamson wrote:Wrong am I? Mine is logical because I don't believe in fairy tales. Are the Cinderella or Snow White stories true? No they aren't. It's also logical to me since each and every one of you Christians have a different take on the bible. One will say this is what the ot says while another will say the nt is the correction of the ot. Yet you all say you know god and he speaks to you. It's rediculous really. If there was a hell, everyone is going. Look, I know you think our thoughts are irrational but sit back and take a good hard look at your own. I'd have to say we have far more proof than you or any other Christian. FAITH IS NOT PROOF!Where is your evidence that God and Christianity is a fairy tale? I'm waiting! Yes, your thoughts are irrational and illogical! The bible says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." We know the universe had a beginning. We know this because science can tell us. Science and the bible are not mutually exclusive as the atheists like to claim. I have given you logical scientific evidence. Where is your scientific evidence that God doesn't exist?
Except that the Earth wasn't 'created' till well after the stars formed.
Light existed right from the beginning, the Earth didn't. There were no 'waters', no 'deep', till well after the earth cooled.
Dry land existed before the waters.
Life appeared in the seas long before it emerged onto dry land. Genesis has it the other way round.
It has birds being formed before the land animals, also wildly wrong.Genesis has the stars (ie the rest of the Universe) being created after land plants, which is also wildly wrong.
The moon is only in the night sky an average of 50% of the time, not so good for something supposed to provide the light at night.
IOW Genesis is so wildly in conflict with science in so many ways, it is ignorant bull-shit to claim it is harmony with science.
Genesis alone is sufficient to destroy any credibility the Bible might have had.
Science tells us that the universe had a beginning. The bible tells us we had a beginning. And this is conflicting? How come everybody on this site keeps avoiding the origins question? Because you all know the bible is right thats why. Did you learn this nonsense from your atheist college professors? It is ignorant to pay good money to be lied to.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
- Login to post comments
Offline butterbattle wrote:Ooohh, you actually responded to me. Okay then, can you explain these verses for me:
- "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works." Matthew 16:27
The works in this verse refer only to Christians. The Christian who shares the gospel with many people will have more rewards than a Christian who only shares the gospel with just a few. Cherry picker!! If read in context, the verses are referring to Christians, not unbelievers. The judgement seat of Christ involves believers giving an account of their lives to Christ. The judgement seat of Christ does not determine salvation, that was determined by Christ's sacrifice on our behalf. Again, nice cherry pickin'!! You have to read verses 14-26 to understand the context of what James is saying. James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith, verse 14. He immediately gives an example of what true and false faiths are. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is, verses 15-17. The he gives an example of the type of faith that isn't that much different from the faith of demons, verse 19. Finally, he gives examples of living faith by showing Abraham and Rahab as the type of people who demonstrated their faith by deeds.
James is examining two kinds of faith, one that leads to good works and one that does not. One is true, the other is false. One is dead, the other is alive. Therefore, Faith without works is dead. This is why in the middle of the section on faith and works, verse 19, "You believe that God is one. You do well, the demons also believe, and shudder." James says this because the demons believe in God, that is, they have faith. But the faith they have is useless. It does not result in appropriate works. Their faith is only a mental acknowledgement of God's existence.
I don't think you get the point. You were originally claiming that you and other Christians didn't need works to support your faith. Now you say that that sort of faith is false.
Somehow, I think you only decided that faith was false after BB called you out on it.
However, let's assume your mean it this time. Are you saying that the only "works" Jesus cares about is evangelism?. All that "love one another as Christ has loves you" stuff is bull? Oh wait, you're a Paulist. Of course it's bull.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
- Login to post comments
Offline We can't scientifically prove or disprove God because God is immaterial. On the other hand God can be proven by using reason and logic. There is tons of evidence for the existence of God but atheists don't use any logic or reason at all. We can scientifically prove that the universe had a beginning 14 billion years ago. Either God created it or He didn't. A logical and reasonable statement would be "something can't come from nothing." An illogical and unreasonable statement would be "something can come from nothing." Our faith is not blind as atheists claim.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was made not out of what was visible. Hebrews 11:3
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who come to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. Hebrews 11:6
You don't remember writing this? Yet you state you have given a scientific explanation. Contradiction after contradiction. Teh, teh, teh. Before you post your rants go back and read your own post. There is no scientific information for god. Theres quite possibly no scientific information that he doesn't exist. So how do you go about using science for someone nonexistant? And you wanna talk about logic? Ha!
Again, you guys love to cherry pick rather than read in context. I said you can prove God exists using reason and logic. I never said science proves that God exists, I said science can give us good evidence for the existence of God. Your argument is nothing more than a straw man.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
- Login to post comments
I clearly didn't say you couldn't know anything without God. I said knowledge originated with God.
Originate - to bring into being; create. There's a difference! Again, you pick and choose what you want to hear.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
And I asked if God brought your knowledge into being or if you thought for yourself.
You answered me - thank you. I look forward to seeing the next piece of drivel you claim God originates in you. If I were God, I'd be insulted that you are giving him credit for the stuff you've been spewing.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
That is utter crap.
We gain knowledge of things by studying them, looking around us at the world, by our experience, often helped by reading what other people before us have learned themselves.
What has God got to do with it??
Knowledge only exists as memory and other information stored in our brains, it has no existence apart from that. Those memories and knowledge stored in our brains originate from our own efforts. They aren't floating around in some Platonic realm for us to simply grab and insert into our minds.
Even if you believe God created everything around us, that by itself is not knowledge. Our knowledge is our personal understanding of our environment, our society, etc, which we gain by experience and specific learning and investigation.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Any non-Biblical proof to back up any of these assertions ? What about the various aspects of the Christian faith that seem to preach a radically different approach to some of the claims that you are making on here ? I bet our resident Calvinist on board would probably tell you that you are completely and utterly in error for your beliefs. He would also use the Bible to back up his claim. Which version would be the one that is correct ? Which one would have more proof ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Thanks for validating my point. The key point is reading what other people before us have learned. Therefore, logically knowledge could be traced back to a single source.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
A single source, but only for that particular bit of knowledge.
Our knowledge of our personal life and of our friends comes from our own direct experience, we are the source for that part of our knowledge.
Our friends and family have knowledge of us, and their experience of us is the source of that part of their knowledge.
Any piece of knowledge is ultimately derived from investigating, studying, testing, thinking about, analysing observations of, reality itself.
Much of our knowledge, especially today, has to be indirect, because none us of has remotely the time and resources to discover all the available knowledge ourselves. So we have to base most of it on what we read in books, see on TV, hear on Radio and from other people . We each have to have ways to decide what sources are worth having confidence in.
The fact that knowledge has grown enormously over time proves that it CANNOT have all come from one source and simply been passed on from person to person. There has to have been a lot of fresh knowledge being generated all the time from many sources.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I don't like to use the word "proof" because nobody can prove or disprove the existence of God. Don't you think that would be logically impossible? I like the word evidence better! A lot of people disagree on the non-essential doctrines of the Christian faith. The reason we have different denominations is due to different opinions. Christianity has essential doctrines and if any one is denied one cannot be saved. These are the essentials:
1. The Trinity
2. The deity of Christ
3. The virgin birth
4. The Resurrection
5. The Atonement
6. Salvation by grace through faith
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
If you are to be consistent, then you have to admit that none of those 'essentials' can be 'proved' either.
So you just have a giant set of assumptions, ie faith, with no way to objectively justify accepting it over all the great variety of other faiths that exist and have existed.
You are ultimately basing your beliefs on your own very fallible judgement.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I believe the basis for human knowledge can't reside solely in sensory experience. You make some very good points but I don't think we will ever agree but it's interesting to talk about none the less.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
You are right, knowledge does not reside "in sensory experience" as such, but it all has to come "via sensory experience", which is a different assertion. After all, reading your Bible, and listening to your preachers is all knowledge coming to you through your senses of sight and sound.
Similarly, the knowledge we gain via scientific investigation is via reading our instruments, and the output of our computers, etc, so it is not dependent on the accuracy of our senses, as long as they work sufficiently well to allow us to read written words, read the position of a pointer on a scale, and understand speech.
You are just as bound to your senses as I am.
If you are thinking of 'revelation', our fallible minds have no way to know if any given idea that comes into our mind came from somewhere outside our mind. We still have to test it against reality just like any other idea we have, if we want to verify or validate it. IOW, we have to fall back on data gathered through our senses, whether direct observation, or the words of others.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I accept my faith, ie Christianity, over all other religions simply for the fact that Christianity is the ONLY one that offers salvation for my sins. Without any one of these essentials I have no salvation and my faith is dead. The Resurrection is one of the most important essentials. If Christ had not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 1 Corinthians 15:17 ALL other religions require works for salvation. Religion = Do. Christianity = Done. The New Testament is a reliable historical document. I can't prove the resurrection, but there is a lot of evidence for the resurrection.
I know that you disagree and think I'm illogical and unreasonable but that doesn't mean I am. Because something can't be proven doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or isn't true.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
Well, you can't prove that Zeus doesn't exist, would you give someone that prays to Zeus equal validity in the matters of faith ? Do you think that Wiccans could possibly be right/wrong because of their belief in God/Goddess ? You can't disprove these people and you can not logically assert that they are wrong if you are wishing for everyone to take the position that simply because YOUR position can not be proven, it could possibly be true. Their positions can not be disproven either, therefore, their positions would have equal weight of probability in the matter that god might exist to yours. Unless of course, you are still believing that somehow you have the TRUE way which can not be proven. So, the only proof is that there is no proof but that is acceptable as proof ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Lee, I agree it cannot be disproven, and as long as you are honest enough to acknowledge you have accepted Christianity purely because you simply like what it promises more that the alternatives you have looked at, since there is no way to know, ie as proven, logically, that any of its claims are true, then I have no arguments with you.
Non-supernatural claims can be assigned varying degrees of likelihood, but the supernatural claims are inherently un-verifiable, which is of course why 'faith' is emphasised.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Ahhh, but christianity gave you the concept of sin. This is sort of like someone spreading malaria so they can sell quinine to treat the symptoms. You wouldn't have to buy the quinine if the jackass had not spread the parasite to begin with. Dispose of the snake oil salesman christianity, and you lose the disease called sin and the need for quinine all in one fell swoop.
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
I can't seem to quote long post because my iPhone gets it all messed up and puts what I say in with what the other persons says so.....
Lee says: I accept my faith, ie Christianity,over all other religions simply for the fact that Christianity is the ONLY one that offers salvation for my sins.
Here is my issue with Christians pushing their beliefs on atheists and telling us we are wrong and they are right. You chose this religion because you benefit from it. How do you know you picked the right religion since you picked it based on what you need from it?
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
That's begging the question. There's no such thing as sin outside of your religion. If you weren't a Christian, then you wouldn't believe you have any sin to be saved from.
If you weren't a Christian, then you wouldn't believe in Christ or sins.
You wouldn't believe the Bible unless you were already a Christian.
None of these are reasons to choose Christianity over any other religion at all. They're psychologically nice reasons to stay in Christianity once you're already a Christian.
I prefer that, by far, over the morality of Christianity, where you can be cruel and selfish all your life, then go to heaven if you repent before you die.
Btw, many Christians would dispute your belief that works don't matter. I suppose those aren't "true" Christians.
Even if that were true, it is not good evidence for the supernatural claims. That would be a red herring.
If the evidence is insufficient, then it is unjustified, and it is irrational to believe it.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
There's no evidence of divine origins for any of our human rules. You are just making arbitrary assertions to suit your argument. Back them up with proof that's not in the bible.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
God is the source of all knowledge because it says so in the bible. It's enough to make you weep.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Ah the truth comes out. So you are Christian because
1. you believe you have sinned
2. Christianity allows you to put your conscience at ease without putting in any effort to correct your misdeeds
which boils down to
3. you are lazy
Now that is probably the strongest argument I have ever heard of for Christianity. I am pretty lazy myself and outsourcing my guilt to "god" over all the less than nice things I have done to people in my life would certainly be a lot easier. Especially compared to other religions that make you do WORKS to make up for your sins. Too bad that pesky rationality gets in the way. If you really want to soothe your conscience, maybe you should trying making it up to the people you have actually hurt in your life or just admit to yourself that you really don't care about them. It does take effort but at least you will be living honestly.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
In my mind, when someone makes an assertion that faith is their only reason for their position. Then that must mean, that the position can not stand on it's own merits alone. If something can be proven, we don't invoke faith. We use reason, logic and other things to determine it's proof.
For instance, you mention evolution.
Scientists do not get together in a lab, hold hands, look to the sky and say "We believe evolution is true. We HOPE that evolution is true. WE BELIEVE ! WE HAVE FAITH IN EVOLUTION!,".
Science doesn't work that way. Would anyone take the application of science seriously if it did ?
Ask yourself if there is any other criteria in your life that you base on pure faith and pure faith alone. Is there anything in your life, that is not backed by either personal experience or some sort of evidence ? Think about it, your "faith" is something that you are asserting because of what ? You are assigning faith a value to something that can not be proven, simply because there is no other way to assign value to the god belief.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
We can't scientifically prove or disprove God because God is immaterial. On the other hand God can be proven by using reason and logic. There is tons of evidence for the existence of God but atheists don't use any logic or reason at all. We can scientifically prove that the universe had a beginning 14 billion years ago. Either God created it or He didn't. A logical and reasonable statement would be "something can't come from nothing." An illogical and unreasonable statement would be "something can come from nothing." Our faith is not blind as atheists claim.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was made not out of what was visible. Hebrews 11:3
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who come to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. Hebrews 11:6
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
Sin has been around since Adam. If i'm not mistaken Adam was here before the birth of Christianity. Try again!
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
You sell your God too short. He created sin long before Adam. He was just God's first victim. Christianity, as Paul created it, got rid of sin for the believer.
Then again, human beings created all the stuff we're discussing so it is kind of a moot point.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
You are wrong! Give me one reason why your beliefs are logical? I picked Christianity based on logic, reason and truth. I have eternal life by God's grace alone and nothing else. What are some of my other benefits?
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
Works don't matter concerning salvation. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8 We do works because of our faith not to earn our salvation.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
Christianity got rid of sin? Jesus got rid of sin not Christianity!! Try again!
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
Wrong am I? Mine is logical because I don't believe in fairy tales. Are the Cinderella or Snow White stories true? No they aren't. It's also logical to me since each and every one of you Christians have a different take on the bible.
One will say this is what the ot says while another will say the nt is the correction of the ot. Yet you all say you know god and he speaks to you. It's rediculous really. If there was a hell, everyone is going.
Look, I know you think our thoughts are irrational but sit back and take a good hard look at your own. I'd have to say we have far more proof than you or any other Christian. FAITH IS NOT PROOF!
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
See? You are the one that's wrong. If god gave his son jesus to die so that we could be forgiven for our sins through christianity then christianity in fact did get rid of sin. Your take on christianity isn't even logical. I don't believe in the bible story but at least I know how to make sense of it.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Kinda odd, the whole concept of Jesus anyway. God supposedly can not forgive all the people for their "sins". Hmm, nope, not even after drowning the world and promising he would never do it again, he just can't bring himself to forgive. So, he comes up with a brilliant idea, he'll just create a son, send him down to earth, get him to perform a few miracles, let him hang on a cross, leave him dead for a few days, then bring him back, and somehow this is supposed to accomplish everyone getting forgiven ?
Odd that forgiveness hinging on allowing your son to die when you could just wave your hand and forgive everyone.
Even stranger that forgiveness has to have some terms. My son gets nailed to the cross for you, you are forgiven, BUT THERE IS A CATCH, you gotta admit that you believe all of this and ask Jesus to forgive you. Wait a minute, Jesus dies for me, I am supposed to be forgiven, but now, I gotta turn around and ask him for forgiveness ? Otherwise, I am not forgiven.
So, to sum it up, he dies for you, but you have to admit that he died for you, otherwise he didn't die for you. He died so that you could be forgiven, but your not going to be forgiven until you realize that he did die for you to be forgiven ? ? ?
Someone should have came up with a better concept than this, that idea is totally insane.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Harleysportster:
And see thats another one of my issues with christians. They like to ask about our morals and even claim we have none. I dont believe that i have to forgive someone when they do something really wrong to me. So heres my point: i wonder if jesus has forgiven his dear ole dad for all us ungrateful sons of bitches that dont believe in him anyway? How immoral can that be to give your child to die when you know there will be some who won't believe anyway?
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Jesus couldn't have gotten rid of sin until Paul made him a gad and started Christianity.
I'd ask you to try again but I'd likely get the same crap as this last you sent me.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
No, because 'reading what other people before us have learned' is not the only source. if it was, then logically knowledge would never have progressed from the Stone Age.
Growth of knowledge comes from what we and others learn directly ourselves from study of reality and then contribute to the total body of knowledge.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
'Reason and logic' alone can only prove that some proposition is consistent with some other assumptions or evidence, not that is is true in reality. Without actual empirical evidence , you are only speculating.
The idea of "Something coming from nothing" is not logical, true , because "coming from" implies an actual source, ie "something".
But something simply "beginning to exist" is NOT against logic.
There are an infinite number of imaginable things, and even more unimaginable things, that could have 'created' the Totality of all that exists, especially if you allow the 'supernatural'.
You need to present your arguments for why it could only be your particular concept of 'God', with all the specific attributes that define him as, presumably, the Christian version. Such as 'infinite', ALL-powerful, etc.
There is no logical proof that whatever started the Universe had to be intelligent, and absolutely no reason why it would have to be what we think of as 'morally good'.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Ooohh, you actually responded to me. Okay then, can you explain these verses for me:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2:21-25
Heh, he is begging the question again.
He's assuming that God created reality; therefore, all of our knowledge "comes from" other intelligent beings.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Lol.
Again, you wouldn't believe in sin if you weren't a Christian. You wouldn't believe in the Garden of Eden story if you weren't a Christian. There is no "salvation." There is no "grace." These are not reasons to become a Christian at all.
You are old enough to have developed a theory of mind by now. Try to think from someone else's perspective instead of just projecting.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Lee believes based on the unsubstantiated claims of the bible and nothing will shake this cognitive bias. Lee is so blind he/she does not even realise it and we are wasting our time arguing about this.
All the research in the world - millions of books, hundreds of thousands of lives devoted to the study of what can be known, pale in comparison to the assertions of the jewish fathers. Lee's computer is running on prayer, not electron theory.
No doubt Lee believes in Noah's Ark and the message of the rainbow as well. Do you believe in Noah's Ark, Lee?
Tell me, Lee, how is it possible to insist on the veracity of the first 5 books of the OT but deny the inviolate truth of the process of fossilisation? How do you rationalise that process away without turning your back on logical consistency?
Oh - another thing. If Noah's Ark was found petrified in sediments at Knidos, would you believe in that? And if you had a tumour would you go to the hospital for surgery based on inductive research or head down to church to pray?
How far does your rabbit hole go?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Exactly right. Jesus rates works - there's no question whatever about this. You can't have it both ways, Lee. Oh - actually you can. Stand by for Lee to claim works only count after conversion and being washed (shudder) in the blood of the lamb.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Where is your evidence that God and Christianity is a fairy tale? I'm waiting! Yes, your thoughts are irrational and illogical! The bible says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." We know the universe had a beginning. We know this because science can tell us. Science and the bible are not mutually exclusive as the atheists like to claim. I have given you logical scientific evidence. Where is your scientific evidence that God doesn't exist?
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
Except that the Earth wasn't 'created' till well after the stars formed.
Light existed right from the beginning, the Earth didn't. There were no 'waters', no 'deep', till well after the earth cooled.
Dry land existed before the waters.
Life appeared in the seas long before it emerged onto dry land. Genesis has it the other way round.
It has birds being formed before the land animals, also wildly wrong.Genesis has the stars (ie the rest of the Universe) being created after land plants, which is also wildly wrong.
The moon is only in the night sky an average of 50% of the time, not so good for something supposed to provide the light at night.
IOW Genesis is so wildly in conflict with science in so many ways, it is ignorant bull-shit to claim it is harmony with science.
Genesis alone is sufficient to destroy any credibility the Bible might have had.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
How much time do you have? There's going to be a lot of stuff coming your way for you to ignore so I want you to be ready.
We can start with the processes that have a much simpler naturalistic explanation than "God did it". The beginning of the universe comes to mind
We can then move into the lack of outside evidence for any of the main characters in the Bible. This can be followed by the attribution to those characters of magical acts that are common to myths and fairy tales.
Do you want more or do you prefer to ignore things in small chunks?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
We can't scientifically prove or disprove God because God is immaterial. On the other hand God can be proven by using reason and logic. There is tons of evidence for the existence of God but atheists don't use any logic or reason at all. We can scientifically prove that the universe had a beginning 14 billion years ago. Either God created it or He didn't. A logical and reasonable statement would be "something can't come from nothing." An illogical and unreasonable statement would be "something can come from nothing." Our faith is not blind as atheists claim.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was made not out of what was visible. Hebrews 11:3
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who come to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. Hebrews 11:6
You don't remember writing this? Yet you state you have given a scientific explanation. Contradiction after contradiction. Teh, teh, teh. Before you post your rants go back and read your own post. There is no scientific information for god. Theres quite possibly no scientific information that he doesn't exist. So how do you go about using science for someone nonexistant? And you wanna talk about logic? Ha!
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.