More Excellent Reasons To Turn Away Islamic Migration to Western Nations
Offline Islamist leader Burhan Hanif tells Aussie Muslims to 'shun democracy'
- From: The Australian
- July 05, 2010
Briton Salim Atchia from global Islamic group Hizb ut-Tahrir addresses the conference yesterday. Picture: Amos Aikman Source: The Australian
The Australian Protectionist Party said Islamic group Hizb ut-Tahrir have no place in society. Picture: Brad Hunter Source: The Australian
APP member Nick Folkes, left, faces off with one a Muslim man during yesterday's protest. Picture: Brad Hunter Source: The Australian
Police step in to clam things down during the protest. Picture: Brad Hunter Source: The Australian
- Australia a 'Godforsaken country' - group
- Secular democracy is 'un-Islamic'
- Islamic group's presence sparks protest
LEADERS of the global Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir have called on Australian Muslims to spurn secular democracy and Western notions of moderate Islam and join the struggle for a transnational Islamic state.
British Hizb ut-Tahrir leader Burhan Hanif told participants at a conference in western Sydney yesterday that democracy is "haram" (forbidden) for Muslims, whose political engagement should be be based purely on Islamic law.
"We must adhere to Islam and Islam alone," Mr Hanif told about 500 participants attending the convention in Lidcombe.
"We should not be conned or succumb to the disingenuous and flawed narrative that the only way to engage politically is through the secular democratic process. It is prohibited and haram."
He said democracy was incompatible with Islam because the Koran insisted Allah was the sole lawmaker, and Muslim political involvement could not be based on "secular and erroneous concepts such as democracy and freedom".
His view was echoed by an Australian HT official, Wassim Dourehi, who told the conference Muslims should not support "any kafir (non-believer) political party", because humans have no right to make laws.
Mr Dourehi also urged Muslims to spurn the concept of moderate Islam promoted by governments in the West, including in "this godforsaken country" of Australia.
"We need to reject this new secular version of Islam," he said. "It is a perverted concoction of Western governments.
"It is a perversion that seeks to wipe away the political aspects of Islam and localise our concerns. We must reject it and challenge the proponents of this aberration of Islam."
The conference, which followed the theme The struggle for Islam in the West' was the first major event held by the Australian branch of HT since a seminar in 2007 which coincided with calls for the group to be banned.
HT is outlawed in much of the Middle East but operates legally in more than 40 countries, campaigning for the establishment of a caliphate or Islamic state.
HT's platform rejects the use of violence in its quest for an Islamic state, but supports the military destruction of Israel.
But the group's presence sparked angry protests outside as members of the Australian Protectionist Party (APP) yelled anti-Islam chants.
The APP met in a small park to express their need to "protect" the Australian way of life.
Conflict between the APP and HT amounted to an exchange of words, anti-Islam chants and the occasional drive-by of young Muslim men yelling obscenities from their car at the APP protesters.
One passer-by, a young Muslim man, yelled at the APP group: "You people have absolutely no idea", sparking a fiery exchange of accusations and finger-pointing.
Nick Folkes, the Sydney organiser for the APP, believes that the HT should be banned in Australia and thinks that practising sharia law should be illegal in Australia.
"Sharia law is an archaic legal system that treats woman as second-class citizens," he said.
"We're not asking them to change their skin colour or religion. But if they come here, they must reject sharia law."
Additional reporting by Sallie Don.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
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I agree my position is morally indefensible and makes no allowances for atheists from muslim nations. In my fantasy world the non believers and even the christians would be allowed to immigrate from muslim countries. But no islamic nutbags.
I don't understand how people can migrate to a country and cry with relief on arrival only to call our girls cat's meat and whores for their western style of dress once they settle in. Stay at home idiots, with the bombings and zero opportunities and where the hardest working half of the population isn't allowed out of the house.
And you can't complain. This is their country now. Gives me the shits.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
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Offline Personally, and somewhat stupidly, I would love to live in an atheist country that did not pledge allegience to any gods of any kind. And i know that means I'm being as judgmental as the religious are.
No, and no -to both underlined parts.
I just don't care any more.
Well jmo, but maybe instead of not caring, you simply don't like being neighbors with zealots and fanatics - I know I don't!
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
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Offline It's going to be impractical to ban a specific religion IMHO. Banning the lot sounds much better, but is even trickier.
Possibly the best that can be done is to make the law as secular as possible. Any religious practices that disobey the law would be illegal.
The current immigration laws already limit who can come in and adding religious nutters to that list suits me, though it would be difficult to administer.
A problem I do have with the Islam bashing is that one has to get into bed with some fellow travellers who have the odour of nazis and Fred Nile. It makes me feel rather icky, but sometimes one has to grit one's teeth.
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Offline The housing estate next to the street where I live seems to have a large number of Islamic residents, probably refugees.
The dress code for the women varies from a light head scarf to the full burqa.
The burqa should be allowed but in the UK, only red ones......then if people mistake them for letter boxes.......tough cookie. Ridicule is the best policy. Religion may turn you into an idiot but to advertise the fact............
'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.
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Offline A problem I do have with the Islam bashing is that one has to get into bed with some fellow travellers who have the odour of nazis and Fred Nile.
Islam bashing? Or "unrestricted immigration" bashing?
I think many of the present day commonwealth territories might eventually have to accept that the whole 'being charitable unto strangers with open palms' simply isn't working for them anymore, and it's time to lock down their national borders to outsiders - Britain is already locked in a losing battle with foreign fascists in a way that would have left Hitler grinning from ear to ear.
There's another thing -you specifically named Islam when you brought up bashing another person's religion. That means it's equally distasteful to bash Xtianity, right? I mean... good for the goose, good for the gander as well...
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
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Offline Islam bashing? Or "unrestricted immigration" bashing?
I think many of the present day commonwealth territories might eventually have to accept that the whole 'being charitable unto strangers with open palms' simply isn't working for them anymore, and it's time to lock down their national borders to outsiders - Britain is already locked in a losing battle with foreign fascists in a way that would have left Hitler grinning from ear to ear.
There's another thing -you specifically named Islam when you brought up bashing another person's religion. That means it's equally distasteful to bash Xtianity, right? I mean... good for the goose, good for the gander as well...
What I was trying to get at was that for many it is ‘Islam bashing’ rather than ‘unrestricted immigration bashing’.
Fred Nile is a fundamentalist Christian politician and a common theme in Australia when discussing this issue is that ‘Australia is a nation based on Christian values’. For these people it seems to be close to ‘Christianity versus Islam’. I’m uneasy that I’m on the same side as people who are thinking in terms of religious war, as that’s probably not going to end well.
My take is: banning all religion sounds much better, but is not going to happen; so refusing entry to nutters of all stripes and making the law completely secular is best.
So, the reason I think it is distasteful to just bash Islam is that it lets other dangerous beliefs off the hook and aligns one with Christians and racists. All dangerous madness needs to be bashed and violence minimised.
However, there still remains the interesting question of comparative religion. Islam, at least as interpreted by many of its current adherents, does seem to clearly take the religious wooden spoon at the moment.
I’m still pondering whether it is worse than say Inquisition era Christianity, and if so, by how much? That issue has probably already been discussed in a different thread.
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Offline I’m still pondering whether it is worse than say Inquisition era Christianity, and if so, by how much? That issue has probably already been discussed in a different thread.
I have been (probably) over-influenced by reading Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali recently. She was raised Muslim in Somalia, Saudi Arabia and Kenya. The family moved a lot. I know very little about Islam myself, so I take her word for it. The Qu'ran does say that only Allah can create the law and that people should only follow his law, Sharia. It does say that all unbelievers should be killed. It does say that a woman is worth half of a man. It does say that women and children should be unquestioningly obedient to the adult men - even to death. Ayaan speaks and reads Arabic. She says translating the Qu'ran is blasphemy since it was written by Allah in Arabic and therefore is invalid in any other language. Questioning the Qu'ran is blasphemy. Blasphemy is punishable by death.
I don't know - I have to go with someone who knows more than I do. So this is why I say, I think it should be very clear - if you want to live in a country, you will follow that country's laws - or go to a country where you can follow your religion's laws. You will be deported otherwise. This seems a reasonable addition to all immigration requests - without specifying any particular religion, it should be secular enough and catch most of the nut jobs.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
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Offline I have been (probably) over-influenced by reading Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali recently.
I have not read Infidel, though I have read some of her articles. She's got guts.
The Qu'ran does say that only Allah can create the law and that people should only follow his law, Sharia. It does say that all unbelievers should be killed. It does say that a woman is worth half of a man. It does say that women and children should be unquestioningly obedient to the adult men - even to death. Ayaan speaks and reads Arabic. She says translating the Qu'ran is blasphemy since it was written by Allah in Arabic and therefore is invalid in any other language. Questioning the Qu'ran is blasphemy. Blasphemy is punishable by death.
Initially trying to limit the comparison to what is written in the theist books rather than their interpretation makes sense, though interpretation will always be with us.
A thorough comparison would be Sisyphian, even for a cat-herd of atheists, but there are a few people on this site who seem to know the bible quite well. It's a pity there are no ex-Muslims here, but it is no surprise.
I'll try to have a quick look at the adherents' duty to the perceived law of their deity. I could be some time.
A list of possible topics then could start with:
Sharia v inquisition / commandments
Status of unbelievers
Women
Contraception / right to choice
Children
Free speech
One's fate is already written v original sin / 'free will'
Haj v pilgrimage and general subservience to the deity, including duty to pray five times a day v keeping the sabbath
Jihad v crusade
Sex
Proselytising
Afterlife
Science / critical thinking
Self hatred and martyrdom
Tithes and submission to the deities' spruikers
Food and drugs
Body count
This atheism caper can be hard work.
I think it should be very clear - if you want to live in a country, you will follow that country's laws - or go to a country where you can follow your religion's laws. You will be deported otherwise. This seems a reasonable addition to all immigration requests - without specifying any particular religion, it should be secular enough and catch most of the nut jobs.
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Offline I’m uneasy that I’m on the same side as people who are thinking in terms of religious war, as that’s probably not going to end well.
How are you on the same side? How does your bias against Islam align you with kooks and/or fundies?
Mind you, my innate political desires overlap a great deal with nutters across the globe as well as at home in the US.
I saw the war in Afghanistan as essential considering that many of the orchestrators and harborers of said orchestrators were in charge over there - does that mean I'm "on Bush's side"?
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
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Offline How are you on the same side? How does your bias against Islam align you with kooks and/or fundies?
Mind you, my innate political desires overlap a great deal with nutters across the globe as well as at home in the US.
I saw the war in Afghanistan as essential considering that many of the orchestrators and harborers of said orchestrators were in charge over there - does that mean I'm "on Bush's side"?
I am on the same side as them: on aspects of this issue and on some other issues.
However, if they come knocking on my door with their pitchforks and their petrol, and ask: "Are you with us or agin' us?", I'll have to reply: "Mine's a Guinness."
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Offline Kapkao wrote:How are you on the same side? How does your bias against Islam align you with kooks and/or fundies?
Mind you, my innate political desires overlap a great deal with nutters across the globe as well as at home in the US.
I saw the war in Afghanistan as essential considering that many of the orchestrators and harborers of said orchestrators were in charge over there - does that mean I'm "on Bush's side"?
I am on the same side as them: on aspects of this issue and on some other issues.
However, if they come knocking on my door with their pitchforks and their petrol, and ask: "Are you with us or agin' us?", I'll have to reply: "Mine's a Guinness."
Sounds like a Mad Max 2 reference...
I didn't see the whole flick, so I can't be sure.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
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Offline x wrote:Kapkao wrote:How are you on the same side? How does your bias against Islam align you with kooks and/or fundies?
Mind you, my innate political desires overlap a great deal with nutters across the globe as well as at home in the US.
I saw the war in Afghanistan as essential considering that many of the orchestrators and harborers of said orchestrators were in charge over there - does that mean I'm "on Bush's side"?
I am on the same side as them: on aspects of this issue and on some other issues.
However, if they come knocking on my door with their pitchforks and their petrol, and ask: "Are you with us or agin' us?", I'll have to reply: "Mine's a Guinness."
Sounds like a Mad Max 2 reference...
I didn't see the whole flick, so I can't be sure.
The original Mad Max has the best vehicle stunts. They were done at speed. And when the shot is of the speedometer on a bike and it says 80, it really is. And only one accident in the entire movie, which was left in. A motorcyclist is flipped off and bumped by another bike.
Road Warrior (#2) is all pretty obvious camera tricks - not near as much fun. Though the characters are great. I particularly liked the crazy helicopter dude with the snake - in a broad Aussie accent - "It's my snake, I trained it, I gets to eat it."
Beyond Thunderdome (#3) is sort of fun, the stunts are better than 2, and Tina Turner has always been one of my favs.
Rent them, watch the dvd extras for #1. Scary. A much better apocalypse series than Terminator in MNSHO.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
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Offline I was thinking the other day about the whole islam vs christianity thing. I have developed a theory based on my random thinking on the subject.
This could actually be good for the secular community, if the population of islam becomes large enough I think many will turn away from religion totally.
Right now a christian hears about islam and all, but to actually face it and realize there is another religion like their own but at the same time so different it will make people think and I believe some will realize the truth. I think it's quite possible this could speed up reality, though islam is still going to be a problem we could see a growth in the secular community.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
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Offline I've already seen 1 & 3 
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Offline Sounds like a Mad Max 2 reference...
I haven't seen it actually and was thinking more along the lines of peasants and pogroms, but MM2 may have been too.
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Offline This could actually be good for the secular community, if the population of islam becomes large enough I think many will turn away from religion totally.
Islam does discredit religion in general. They almost seem like atheist agent provocateurs, though that can be said of fundies in general.
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Offline I was thinking the other day about the whole islam vs christianity thing. I have developed a theory based on my random thinking on the subject.
This could actually be good for the secular community, if the population of islam becomes large enough I think many will turn away from religion totally.
Right now a christian hears about islam and all, but to actually face it and realize there is another religion like their own but at the same time so different it will make people think and I believe some will realize the truth. I think it's quite possible this could speed up reality, though islam is still going to be a problem we could see a growth in the secular community.
Yes, I definitely agree.
Mixing in other kinds of nuttery give people a little perspective on their own. Particularly in public schools, when people grow up as friends with those of other religions, it's a little harder for them to take their own as absolute certainty. It's like a force for more secular deism.
Islam, however, is a little more dangerous than it needs to be. I like Scientology for this role- everybody thinks they're nutty, there are loads of parallels with other religions, and they don't usually kill people [anymore].
I find it impossible to protest Scientology with the elephant of Christianity in the room- it's just an easy target, and that's no good.
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Offline Kapkao wrote:Sounds like a Mad Max 2 reference...
I haven't seen it actually and was thinking more along the lines of peasants and pogroms, but MM2 may have been too.
MM2, aka Road Warrior (US title -as cj pointed out), is a post-apoc world where Peak Oil Crisis has made a landing, industrialism has come to a grinding halt, nasty wars have been fought with likely nuclear exchanges, all traces of modern society about to disappear completely, etc.
"Petrol"; as you commonwealth natives call it; has assumed an economic importance comparable to "Spice" in Frank Herbert's Dune series -cars and refineries still work, after all, and it still beats traveling on foot.
The movie almost continues where the first one left off: bandits, savages, and outlaws still run wild, attacking anyone foolish enough to travel the main roads without any sort of defenses. In particular, the focal group of miscreants want the fuel of nearby refinery, and skirmish with it's terrified inhabitants nonstop. The title character is their last hope of fighting off the savages... and he isn't too thrilled about it.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
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Offline robj101 wrote:I was thinking the other day about the whole islam vs christianity thing. I have developed a theory based on my random thinking on the subject.
This could actually be good for the secular community, if the population of islam becomes large enough I think many will turn away from religion totally.
Right now a christian hears about islam and all, but to actually face it and realize there is another religion like their own but at the same time so different it will make people think and I believe some will realize the truth. I think it's quite possible this could speed up reality, though islam is still going to be a problem we could see a growth in the secular community.
Yes, I definitely agree.
Mixing in other kinds of nuttery give people a little perspective on their own. Particularly in public schools, when people grow up as friends with those of other religions, it's a little harder for them to take their own as absolute certainty. It's like a force for more secular deism.
Islam, however, is a little more dangerous than it needs to be. I like Scientology for this role- everybody thinks they're nutty, there are loads of parallels with other religions, and they don't usually kill people [anymore].
I find it impossible to protest Scientology with the elephant of Christianity in the room- it's just an easy target, and that's no good.
Biggest problem here is the well-demonstrated difficulty people have in perceiving flaws in their own beliefs despite how clearly they may recognize very similar kinds and degrees of flaws in others. This goes beyond mere stubbornness, it appears to a basic cognition effect. After hearing about this I can only redouble my efforts to examine honestly my own assumptions.
I feel that I have 'trained' myself to recognize that instinctive feeling of aversion to looking honestly at my own ideas, and fight it, but of course how can I be sure I am really addressing this adequately?
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline here is the well-demonstrated difficulty people have in perceiving flaws in their own beliefs despite how clearly they may recognize very similar kinds and degrees of flaws in others. This goes beyond mere stubbornness, it appears to a basic cognition effect. After hearing about this I can only redouble my efforts to examine honestly my own assumptions.
I feel that I have 'trained' myself to recognize that instinctive feeling of aversion to looking honestly at my own ideas, and fight it, but of course how can I be sure I am really addressing this adequately?
Yea I didn't imply everyone would suddenly become an atheist but I imagine a large percent of fence sitters and a much smaller percent of more intelligent "christians" may rethink things with such militant hate as islam clamping their nostrils shut along with the gag of political correctness we already maintain blocking their airway. It may get a bit stifling in here.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
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Offline x wrote:Kapkao wrote:Sounds like a Mad Max 2 reference...
I haven't seen it actually and was thinking more along the lines of peasants and pogroms, but MM2 may have been too.
MM2, aka Road Warrior (US title -as cj pointed out), is a post-apoc world where Peak Oil Crisis has made a landing, industrialism has come to a grinding halt, nasty wars have been fought with likely nuclear exchanges, all traces of modern society about to disappear completely, etc.
"Petrol"; as you commonwealth natives call it; has assumed an economic importance comparable to "Spice" in Frank Herbert's Dune series -cars and refineries still work, after all, and it still beats traveling on foot.
The movie almost continues where the first one left off: bandits, savages, and outlaws still run wild, attacking anyone foolish enough to travel the main roads without any sort of defenses. In particular, the focal group of miscreants want the fuel of nearby refinery, and skirmish with it's terrified inhabitants nonstop. The title character is their last hope of fighting off the savages... and he isn't too thrilled about it.
Mad Max/Road Warrior is this. Gas is running out but these bastards never get out of their cars. Instead they roar about like maniacs, revving their gigantic engines. Give me a break. Those weird freaks would all have been riding Honda Cubs or driving 3 cylinder Hyundai Charades, not screaming about in XB Falcons with supercharged 351 Windsors with nitrous. And the bad guys have no wives or children to temper their tribalism and encourage them to settle down. Not very likely, even for South Australians.
The good guys also pick the dustiest, driest most fucked up place in Australia, Desert Planet, to build Camp Dumb, a site which has it's own oil well but no water or topsoil to grow food. Oh, it's heady stuff. Their eagerness to get to Queensland where there's proper rainfall (metres and metres of it a year) along with fertile soil, is the only sensible thing in the entire film. And the blonde warrior woman. Not sure what it is about a warrior woman but there's something going on there.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
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I read in the paper this morning that Australia takes in 28,000 muslim migrants a year - still. Why is our government so fucking stupid? It really is beyond me. There are plenty of other people we should encourage to share our home than these nutsacks who believe that upon our deaths we will be burned alive while our own personal demon pours jugs of boiling water over our heads till our skins fall off. Politicians. Stupid fucking fucks.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
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Toss them out. Ban the religion. Hey, I am usually all for freedom of religion, but Islamic law should be banned. And if they won't give it up then they should go.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Do we need another reason beyond that they mean to either convert, or Kill us (the infidels)?
Q: How can you identify a Moderate Muslim?
A: He is out of amunition.
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
Does this mean we get to throw out left wingers and socialists too?
But in all seriousness, protecting freedom of speech doesn't mean we have to bow down to what the person is saying. After all the freedom extends two ways and we have equal right to tell them to fuck off.
This seems to go beyond mere speech - they are expressing their intention of taking some form of action against fundamental aspects of civilized society.
It is a tricky line to draw, somewhere between 'shouting fire in a crowded theater' and the most uptight version of 'political correctness', but we have examples of what 'mere' words can lead to - Godwin's 'Law' suggests I should avoid spelling out one of the most notorious....
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
The religion is a wolf in sheeps clothing, they come in meek and innocent, twist your own laws to suit their agenda then drop the wool. They profess and demonstrate their intentions in other parts of the world and our wacky far left somehow manages to ignore or play like it's ok.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Another tricky line to draw is who let in and who not such as not letting in any Muslims or banning the religion. Would we let in refugees trying to flee Iran or Saudi Arabia?
That said, if they go to Australia or any other nation, they should be expected to follow that nation's laws and said laws should be enforced.
I think, if the nation accepting them as immigrants made it absolutely clear that Sharia law would not be tolerated and they HAD to follow the national law in all cases, then they could make a better choice about whether to immigrate to that country.
And that would mean a lot of them would not immigrate of their own free will. I am really of two minds about this. 1) Good riddance. 2) Perhaps immigrating is the only way to break down Sharia law once and for all.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
The subject of a very active political debate here right at this moment, with a new Prime Minister and an election looming.
I agree.
I am not sure whether some aspects of the female dress code should be banned, as France seems to be inclined to, but burqas at my local supermarket still bugs me.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I have come up with a position on wearing the burqa.
Isn't this dress insulting the men? It says to me that adult Islamic men must act like little boys. They go in the candy store like a 2 year old and grab everything they want without proper payment. Maybe when they grow up, you can start wearing comfortable clothes.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
The housing estate next to the street where I live seems to have a large number of Islamic residents, probably refugees.
The dress code for the women varies from a light head scarf to the full burqa.
Our climate in summer is often very humid, so that dress must be a bit of hassle, even if it is designed to be as well ventilated as possible.
I often wonder what they and their menfolk think when the go to the Supermarket in summer, with 90F+ temperature, and mix with Aussie women typically lightly dressed for the heat...
The contrast is bizarre.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I agree that this should be done; I just don't believe that it's currently practical.
I do, however, think we should be developing the technology and practices to make it practical.
But we can stop allowing migration from nations whose citizens have core beliefs that will arguably never mesh with ours. This is considered a poor argument by many but it's no different from the practises of middle eastern nations. I don't want to live in a country that has a lot of muslims in it and there are hundreds of millions of needy people from other countries who do not have core beliefs that clash with mine. Allow these people to immigrate. If there was a referendum on this issue I think the people of all western nations would call for an end to immigration from muslim nations.
Personally, and somewhat stupidly, I would love to live in an atheist country that did not pledge allegience to any gods of any kind. And i know that means I'm being as judgmental as the religious are. I just don't care any more.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
See, I have a problem with that because one of my best atheist friends is an immigrant from an Islamic country (not to Australia, but the matter still applies).
Now, just forbidding Muslims from immigrating? That would be fine- but when the extremists and terrorists will happily lie about being Muslim, how does that help us unless we have a reliable means to determine if somebody is Muslim or not?
You are welcome to immigrate to China. We need more rational expats here, what with all of the fundamentalists coming to proselytize here. For at least the time being (and hopefully it remains so), China is atheistic.