This is about LAW not emotionalism. Unless you can prove through legal means that this mosque would be used as a criminal organization, you have no right to keep them from doing what people of other religions do all the time.

Either we are a secular nation with equal protection under the law, or we are not. You are making the location a taboo. You do realize that the same city DENIED American Atheists a permit to conduct their own mourning ceremony. Is that what you want to be part of?

You are acting as if 9/11 was the only act of horror committed by humans on other humans in human history.

I understand the REACTION to the event and I understand the loss of life and we should never forget what happened that day. But in the end the common law is the only thing that all of us live under. We cannot throw that out for any reason, otherwise we are no better than the Muslims who attacked us.

I saw the face of a woman who saw the towers go down, just days after it happened, The look of fear and horror in her while she described it, shook telling me what she saw is burned into my memory. Days later I ran into a Muslim women in a parking lot and tried to comfort her because she was scared of everyone around her and was afraid that I would attack her. THOSE women both had the same look of fear.

Humans suffer and do horrible things to each other all the time. Making that event, as horrible as it was, a taboo is to diminish the history of human suffering in human history. That event shouldn't promote Islam or America or Christianity. It should serve as a reminder to all what not to do to others.

If you cannot allow Muslim citizens to be free in this country when they haven't been accused of something and want to assume guilt before they have done something, the fascist states they come from are famous for assuming guilt.

I am not saying don't keep an eye on Islam. I am not saying don't question Islam. I am saying that we are a secular nation and our laws should apply equally. If you are unwilling to do that, then you are no better than the Christian revisionists who want our government to favor Jesus and seat all others at the back of the bus.

This is STRICTLY about law. If the Muslims promoting this mosque are legal and the land is legal and they are citizens why should they be treated any differently? You do realize that if American Atheists bought that same building and wanted to put up an atheist building, they would have the same reaction and be JUST AS WRONG.

Ok, and how do you propose we ban religion? Like Hitler and Stalin? Naw, that doesn't feed into the believer's stereotypes of atheists.

Atheists are just as capable of credulous utopia thinking. You think it is possible to get 6 billion people all on the same page?

I want to see the end of religion as much as any other atheist. But I will not lose my human empathy in knowing that people will believe what they believe. The only reasonable thing any human can do is to allow the claims to be made and allow the challenge of all claims.

I detect a note of sarcasm in your response, so forgive me if I misunderstood. I simply get a lip twitch when atheists use words like "rid" and "ban" for whatever reason.

Most of the taxi drivers are Muslim. And that makes them less human how?

Lets spark up the ovens because they are willing to take jobs you don't want. Are you sure you're not caught in a multi universe actually speaking about Mexicans in Arizona?

If you want to go after criminals and terrorists GREAT! I am with you all the way. But assuming guilt because of numbers and origin and label is exactly what we accuse theists of all the time.

Not what I am saying Brian.  Rather, NYC has a crap load of muslims.  They are all worshiping somewhere.  Quite a lot of somewhere actually as there are at least a dozen major mosques there.  Including the one in the old Burlington Coat Factory building.  They are already there and worshiping.  Calling the building a landmark does not force them out, it only prevents them from having a shiny new building on that site.

Really, they needed more space for the community, so they found an empty building they could pick up cheaply.  Really cheaply because Burlington left due to the fact that they did not want to pay for repairs after it got a jet engine hurled through the upper stories.

In fact, there are like three other huge mosques within a mile of the place.  The specific group that now owns the building got like 90% of the way through the process to approve construction before anyone noticed.  Now there is a huge problem somehow.  Um, there was not a huge problem a year ago and they are not doing anything different today.

First amendment rights, I am pretty sure I have them despite my atheism.

edit: and it all sounds good about us being secular and fair to everyone, but in practice it will not work.

I don't, where Islam is concerned I am realistic and happy, call it fascism if you like. It's a threat to me, my family and everyone in the country. I considered posting say, Pat's no mosque at ground zero vid, the 3rd jihad video or numerous other vid's but I figure if you are interested you have already seen them and prefer to look down this particular tunnel.

The US is bad enough with christianity, I do not see a real need to add the insanity of islam to the mix if we can help it, but we can't so your desire to see the letter of the law will be upheld, untill you virtually have a gun held to your head demanding praise to allah in the next 20-30 years I would suspect. It only took about 10 years in Britain but the U.S. is a big country. The oil cash which we provide a good majority of will fund mosques and lawyers to zip our mouths shut about their religion soon enough.

"We need to kick them all out"

You do know that we had a president say that atheists shouldn't be considered citizens. And McCarthy went around accusing even fellow Christians of being atheist communists. So your solution is to accuse all Muslims of being terrorists by guilt by association?

Was it right for America to put Japanese citizens in internment camps during WW2, not because they had any evidence on every single one of them, but merely because of their origin?

I cant fear what has not happened yet. I fear more what humans are capable of when paranoid. It is one thing to keep an eye on things and be skeptical, it is inhuman to treat another human as a sub species because of some fear of something you think might happen.

Why stop at kicking Muslims out? Hitler started by denying Jews property rights or business ownership. Don't let the fear that some Muslims want to instill on you send you down the same fascist path their advocates are selling.

The west does not have to bow to Islam nor should it. But we cannot let fear cause us to become the very thing we say we hate.

Tell us the story of islam in europe. Speak of multi-culturalism and political correctness. Because once they really get a foot in the door it's over, their goal is world domination it says so in their holy book. I believe christians have the same goal but christianity is a bit more moderate in terms of violence. If you choose to lean back and "see what happens" thats fine and you can complain about me complaining but it doesn't change the fact that islam is comming and islam is a terrible disease.

No one can "stop" the mosque at ground zero all they can really do is add public awareness. I think the mosque will go up and that will be that but there will be some trouble over it. Try setting up an atheist convention center in the middle east, see what happens.

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/beheadings-r-us/ enjoy the religion of peace.

edit: forgot to address the japanese internment camps, it was sad but necessary. Common sense dictates that any one of them could have been a sympathizer and killed many. Uncommon sense says that they were innocent and should have been left alone, but obviously they were not a problem but would any of them have been a problem otherwise? We will never know, all we do know is that they were locked up in a camp and didn't have the ability to kill anyone. Now we suffer from too much political correctness. You sir seem quite politically correct on this issue. "let them come, they haven't done anything. Just because they have been a problem elsewhere if they claim to be moderate then they are probably ok." This seems to be what you are saying which is a hard left approach aiming a blind eye at what they have already done. I'm relatively certain I am not the only one who would argue this with you on this forum.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/05/faisal-shahzad-caught-on-_n_564705.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/13/afghan-soldier-kills-3-br_n_644214.html

Save me, Jesus. This is so stupid (and rather evil) that I don't know where to begin.

First off: if it was necessary, then why weren't all German-Americans sent to camps for being possible Nazi sympathizers? The second largest Nazi party in the world at the time was the US Nazi party. Yet no German-Americans were sent to camps. That was plain-old racism. Whites related to our enemies? They are just Americans like you or I. Non-whites related to our enemies? Possible sympathizers, better seize their property and send them to concentration camps. I hate it when people scream 'racism!,' but it really was anti-white racism and NOT a pragmatic move.

Second: many of those Japanese-American families had been in the US for generations. They were ethnically Japanese in the same way that I'm ethnically Irish. It would be absurd to accuse me of secretly wanting to advance Irish interests in opposition to the US. It was absurd to accuse those people of secretly wanting to harm the US when their families had been here for generations and they only had the most tenuous, distant connection to Japan.

Unless you are a full-blooded Native American, then you are ethnically in the same boat as those Japanese-Americans back in WWII. It would NOT be common sense to seize your property and send you to a concentration camp if the US and whatever nation you are ethnically related to went to war. In fact: are you claiming that you would gladly surrender your property and freedom to the government if the US hypothetically went to war with whatever country your ancestors are from? Let me guess: the answer is 'no.'

The Japanese internment camps are a black stain on our history. Let's not try and white-wash it by pretending that it was a sensible policy.

Holy fuck i have never come so close to vomiting after watching something than i just did after seeing the eugene armstrong beheading video. i still dont think building a mosque is a big deal but there has to be something done on a global scale to end fundamentalism. fuck this shit 

Yay, he will go to prison to convert more innmates. Fine american citizens.

Brian37 is correct that Islam isn't going away, and some of his viewpoints mirror my own I made at a right-wing political website (where some of the Xtian posters were screaming anti-muslim rage)....

but as usual, he goes off on a tangent about humanity, and "compassion", and "not be a controversy", and of course "emotionalism" -much while spewing some interesting emotionalisms of his own making.

Brian... are you really that misguided in your worldview? Our species arose from conflict and strife, and most likely, Homo Sapiens Sapiens will END in conflict and strife as well. From my pov, what remains to be seen is if anyone around today has the sensibility to give rise to a better, more able species in the wake of their downfall -utilizing science, naturally.

If we're smart, we'll just engineer ourselves to be better, via bionics, genetic engineering etc.

On the mosque issue, they should be allowed to.  If someone from a group does something stupid, it doesn't mean that the rest will.  Fundamentalists are the major problem, not everyone who subscribes to the faith.  Just like there are christians who deny evolution and despise homosexuality, there are christians who simply believe in something larger than themselves, but know not to restrict others' views. 

neither hitler nor stalin banned religion.

I lived and worked in London for almost twenty years and would concur.

In fact, one of my happiest times was looking out the window of a Whitechapel Road pub during a long lunch and marvelling at the amazing variety of people who passed by the window, peacefully going about their business.

The harmony was very noticeable in the work environment too. Plenty of 'races', plenty of religions (but never mentioned) and no problems. Very middle class.

It is partly why I support the eventual inclusion of Turkey in the EU. People seem to go feral if left alone with poverty and ignorance. Socialising them seems to be the best solution.

They are all just people.

To me, the only thing your "those who do not learn from history..." post demonstrates, is that non-middle-classed individuals should be barred from entry into more civilized, developed lands.

Or maybe your illustrative understanding of "history" is merely a bullshit attempt at endorsing the leftist's Global Village mantra.

You are right, let me restate that more accurately. Would you want to live under those rulers. They squashed all dissent, be it business, political or religious. So yea, religion did exist, but if it wasn't part of the ruling party, if it expected to survive, it kept it's mouth shut. That is what fascism is.

You cannot oppress people you disagree with, it only breeds resentment and paranoia and division. Islam in the east certainly is living in the past. But we cannot in the west lump all Muslims in with those who would do and want harm to come to the west. That is guilt by association.

Trying to treat all Muslims the same is absurd. It is one thing to challenge moderates to not enable the far right in their label. But that is no different than doing the same with any other label. What we should not do is become the very thing we say we hate in order to solve a problem.

Fight fire with fire?

Yes, and I'm considering it as something of an expedition (in one that is stable and has freedom of religion).  I like to try living in new and interesting places- though I wouldn't want to raise children in such a place for any length of time.

The thing I do like about highly religious areas is that the atheist groups can be easier to find (and be more active- not necessarily politically, but socially).  Atheist groups are nowhere to be found in some countries, for example China, because it just wouldn't make any sense (being that almost everybody is).

When there isn't any religion to help distinguish between average people, and those supremely practiced in rational thinking, it's hard to meet the really good ones (although average people are less irritating, and it's really nice to be able to make friends with almost anybody off the street and know they aren't advocating scripture that tells them to convert and/or kill me).

That is to say, the milk is too homogeneous, and there's nothing to let the cream rise to the top.  Even though the milk in such religious countries is arguably soured, the little cream that does rise to the top is that much more fantastic for it.

Too many milk metaphors.

Well, the issue becomes whether or not we can create non-biological self replicating materials.  Otherwise, it'll be biological based and we can still call ourselves human.  Hell, even if it isn't biological, we can still call ourselves human, because at that point we will be defining what our species is more so than evolution (though technically that may be what evolution leads to, so still evolutionary). 

Man, the future is gonna be awesome lol

It's not necessarily difficult to find the intellectually talented, as opposed to the mundanely nontheistic. However, compelling rational thinkers to organize and form social circles is difficult in a place already nonreligious.

There was talk of spilling pigs blood on the soil.

Hmm, actually now I'm wondering if a common bag of pork rinds might come in handy, ready packaged muslim poison lol.

And then I found this little gem. http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/publius-forum/2010/06/those-poor-muslims-forced-to-sell-pork-rinds-in-chicago.html

 For every true moderate in the public eye you could probably list a handfull of extremists. If they really want to stand up and denounce their extremist fellows thats fine but so few do and in fact many seem to applaud them.

Ill post this but you have likely seen it.

I'm of the opinion that "Half-naked thrashings until age 17" (and the associated, life-long torment you mentioned in another thread) are revolting to no end to me, because you seem like a great person otherwise.

Parents oppressing their own children with violence and what have you... that's wrong regardless of creed, religion, nationality...