Muslims want to build Mosque near Ground Zero.
Offline It should not be a controversy. If it is private property and current zoning laws allow for ANY religious institution to be built there, and the owner of the property wants to sell it to Muslims, then they should BY LAW be allowed to build it.
There is a FALSE assumption that only Christians died in those towers and many Muslims died to. Now of course I do not support any religion and find all god belief to be absurd. I am strictly talking about society trying to bully private property owners.
I get the emotional reaction and it was Muslim zealots who committed the horrible acts of 9/11. But their reaction to the Mosque being built says they care more about tribalism, than the pluralism the city has in reality and the secular concept of welcoming all that our founders intended.
We can blame religion for 9/11 just like we can blame religion for the Dark Ages. What we cannot do is allow fear mongers divide and destroy humanity.
It isn't about bowing to Islam, it is about the secular law our country falls under. If people wouldn't have a problem with a church or Synagogue there, then a Mosque should be treated no differently.
These same people who are complaining about the Mosque being built also complain about the lack of freedom non-Muslims have in the middle east.
I think these people might have forgotten the name of the tower complex was, "WORLD TRADE CENTER". It wasn't just white American Christians who died, there were people from 80 nations and every religion among the dead.
Islam isn't going away, and it should be debated and exposed for the myth it is just like any other religion. I am strictly talking about the rule of law and that if we are going to maintain our secular attitude then we cant complain when others in this country want to do what we do ourselves.
FYI, there was a Muslim woman at the city council meeting on video saying "I had family members die that day. I am an American too". She is right. What right do citizens have denying the rights of a fellow citizen based on guilt by association?
We don't have to give up the fight against the fascism of those who committed 9/11 , but we also lose our compassion even for those we disagree with. I do not assume that all the members of Islam want me dead because I am not a Muslim.
The bottom line is that if the property is legal and the transactions are legal and the building codes are legal, the owner should be allowed to do with that property what they wish. Anyone reading this who owns a business or even a house understands this. We cant have laws that only apply to us but not others. If freedom of religion is to be defended, then we cant be selective as to which one we defend".
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
- Login to post comments
And it does tend to blur my vision when I talk about these things. I wrap religion and associated threats all up in the one blanket.
But it's an upbringing that's given me a genuine appreciation of spanking, so it's an ill wind that blows no good...
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I don't think your vision is blurry... unless it makes you a coward!
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
FYI China is NOT an atheist majority. Its government is a one party system that does not allow competition to politics. The Chinese population has it's own superstitions and always has had a history of belief in superstitions.
It's historical Imperial Palace left over from the dynasty days has depictions of gods and heaven and hell in the artwork inside and outside the Palace. The population of China is far from godless, they have their own superstitions. Belief in god is ONE superstition, Taoism and Buddhism are also religions with their own superstitions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China
Religion never left China, it simply has gone through changes in the amount the government allows their citizens to publicly practice. It depends upon the point in history we are talking about. Right now they seem to be opening up a little easing restrictions on SOME, while still keeping a tight reign on others deemed to be a threat to the state.
But their citizens can be and are just as superstitious as any other culture in human history.
And the other thing. There is no such thing as a Utopia. I am quite sure as per your post above, you could move to one of those countries, not China, but one of those "religous" countries, and find out that it wasn't the peaces and cream you want to make it out to be.
You gave yourself away in that you really don't believe you'd do it because you wouldn't want to raise your kids there. If it is so great, why not? If it is good enough for you, why not your kids too?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Hi Brian...
Even though you are among my favorite posters here, I must respectfully disagree...
While I will not challenge you on the ignorant false assumption by most Americans that it was predominantly Christians who died in the attacks (I actually had an Anti-Semite once tell me that the jews must be behind the attacks, because he read online that no jews died in the trade center that day).... Nor will I contend the Legality of the Mosque being built...There is another dynamic that must be considered...
Irregardless of the Trade center attacks...This is an awful location for a Mosque... While downtown Manhattan is becoming more of a residential neighborhood, it does not have a significant Muslim population...although it is politically incorrect to say... Many believe (as I do) that this is a taunt, if not a provocation by anti-American Muslim Extremists...The Clerics who are pushing for this Mosque to be built, if there intentions were as they say (to help with the "healing" process)... They would be more sensitive to people's feelings, and chose a location out of the Financial District and put their Mosque in either Tribeca, or Soho... After all, it *was* Muslims who were responsible for the attacks...What they are doing is using rather than using planes, they are employing Liberal inspired political correctness as a weapon
The truth is, by its very existance... there will be many Anti-American Islamics attending services there, and will do so with the intention of thumbing their nose at Americans...
Imagine this scenario... You own a home... You have a family you love very much, who while you are out running errands are Murdered in a home invasion... Now the friends and supporters of the murderers buy the house across the street...and they are claiming that they did so because they want to show you that they really aren't all that bad... which may or may not be the case... however you are left with the reminder of their insensitivity every time you walk out of your front door...
I think it is Naive to think that there will not be Islamics who attend that Mosque, and whose wishes are that the new construction site at Ground Zero ALSO be brought down to the ground... It is written into the very fabric of their doctime... So *CAN* they build there... sure, I am sure legally they can... But *SHOULD* they?... That is the question that is open for discussion...
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
If only the question was as simple as posed.
The cult known to us as islam isn't merely a religion. People are being duped into treating it as if it were catholicism/hinduism/buddhism etc...
They are making a deliberate attempt to metaphorically plant a flag, even by naming it 'Cordoba House'.
It would seem that moslems are far more affective at using our rules against us than we are currently aware. The sooner that islam is declared an anti-West cult (anti-human rights, anti-freedom, feel free to add your own) then the sooner we can banish it back to its failing center in the ME.
How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais
Rich, you've ruined the thread with this post, dammit.
Too much rationalism, I say! Too much...
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Agreed.
It does not matter whether or not people like what will be done in the building. As long as the owners of the building are following the law, then they can do whatever they want with their property.
I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.
You'd have a case if this were the only location where Americans were objecting to the building of a Mosque. Over the years since, in several states the fear mongers don't object on solid evidence of intent of crime, but the fact that someone competing with their religion is using the same legal means to compete. The same arguments against Mosques have been made in locations having nothing to do with the targets of 9/11. It is merely a zeitgeist of presumption of guilt.
If "E-Pluribus Unum" as a motto is to be the beacon of inclusion, then the presumption of guilt is the enemy of inclusion.
Until someone brings me evidence that the people who own that building are out to kill others, they are mere citizens, and as such deserve the same rights to do with their property as you or I would want in controlling our own property.
I understand the emotional reaction. I do. But emotions are not law, law is law. Americans are great at touting law being the rule. If it is good enough for us, then we shouldn't fear each other as citizens to the point of paranoia and scrap the very thing that should keep us civil.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Here Brian... Pat Condell and I seem to have similar thoughts:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pat-condell-on-ground-zero-mosque-is-it-possible-to-be-astonished-but-not-surprised.html
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
I do agree with Pat that religion shouldn't get any special treatment whatsover.
That is preciously why I think the objections to the mosque fall short, it's treating religion differently. I don't think religion should be treated any differently from any other institution.
Did Muslims destroy the towers? Yeah they were Muslim.
Did Socialists start a civil war in Colombia? Yeah, should I object to socialist clubs?
You object and say Islam is a facist ideology etc... etc... but that too falls short, seeing as it's a religion it's open to 100 million different interputations.
Are you all aware that an influx of moderate muslims lead to extreme muslims (terrorists and hate speech), every time? The law is fine but common sense has to come into play or is there no common sense? Forget about 9/11, understand what this religion demands and then watch the law favour them in the end. They have proven in other countries what their goals are and they use the "law" to acheive them.
If a man is going to buy a gun and you think he may be intent on commiting suicide over a bad relationship or some such, will you sell him the gun?
Foreknowledge and common sense > law. On occasion it should be broken.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
So did anyone see the segment Hannity did on this issue tonight? It was a complete shitshow of screaming name-calling and useless rhetoric, but i guess what can you expect from Hannity?
The one thing I did get out of it that was somewhat intriguing is the question 'does advocating sha'ria law, a law code that advocates violence directly contrary to our current law code, present a clear and present danger that would merit censoring someone's speech or preventing them from building this mosque'. The Imam who wants to build this mosque advocates for sha'ria law in the U.S. in a book he wrote. Is that enough to shut him down? Freedom of speech is of course not absolute.
I Am My God
The absence of evidence IS evidence of absence
They can have freedom of speech and they can talk about it all day long. Does anyone know where the funding for this is comming from? Does anyone know who is heading this up? Westborogh can be sent away from the funerals they "protest" we can send these assholes away from the site where their religion killed innocent people as well.
I know very well it was not just the "religion" as mr Ron Paul said it has a lot to do with our foreign policy. But they did claim it in the name of their religion, religion will alllow them to do whatever they want.
The fact that there is so much debate over it should be a small clue and if they really don't want a mosque there as a symbol of victory they would put it elsewhere. To say that they want to put a mosque there to help smooth things over is a complete joke as things are obviously NOT smooth and it's not even there yet. It's a big country, just don't try to fuk with any texas pig farmers.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/01/texas-islamic-group-told-neighboring-farmer-his-pigs-would-have-to-go.html
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Such shameless emotionalism...
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
DPs suck
Who said we should not keep an eye on the Muslims of the middle east? I am saying that the rule of law applies and our constitution is not based upon presumption of guilt. Unless and until probable cause to establish a warrant can be made to a court EVERY citizen is considered such.
You are confusing issues here. One is the rightful scrutiny and skepticism one should have, and I agree. The other issue is long term having nothing to do with labels, and everything to do as to what kind of society we want to live in.
Presumption of guilt under a government based on paranoia is oppressive and fosters fear and can spread beyond one label to affect every citizen.
Unless you can PROVE there is a crime being committed, you cannot take someone's property or rights away merely because you think they might do something. If a government starts doing that long term it will spread and eventually affect every citizen.
You don't protect others rights because you like them. You protect their rights because that is what you would want for yourself.
I would rather fear my fellow citizen than fear my government. When a citizen is the criminal, it is easier to prosecute them. When the government becomes the criminal, it affects everyone. I am not going to give up my rights and in order to keep them, I have to protect even those I might not like.
So again, unless you can prove criminal intent by the Mosque being built there, the owners have the same rights as any other citizen. It is not a matter of liking them, it is a matter of what I would want for myself and my own rights.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
An interesting appeal to emotion...
Brian, is it possible that emotionalism and pragmatism have nothing at all to do with what you personally object to? Because apparently, when you use these words, it refers to things you are ideologically uncomfortable or comfortable with...
I've noticed you're a huge fan of slippery slopes. Are you an ACLU member by chance?
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Brian 37 is huge fan of the Washington NFL team; a very frustrating thingy to be. { notice I never use their nickname} I am a Patriots fan; a very whorthwile endever { notice I use the nickname of the New England team] . I dare any liberal to ask me why?
Brian 37, like any good, red-blooded American does not think beyond his NFL team; there is no reason to.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Another thing to consider... Islam is roughly the same age that Christianity was during the Dark Ages... Only we now live in a world with Nuclear weapons...
http://www.blip.tv/file/3107243
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
For once, I agree with you. I think it should be allowed to be built, as a sharp smack in the face for the zealots who destroyed the towers.
Because you're a hillbilly?
OK, strictly for point of reference, we are not talking about this thing like it is the only one in the area. There are several within walking distance to ground zero. They just want to put one more in at a similar distance to the others. As I have noted before, they are not even doing a new one in the sense of it was not already there, they just want to replace an old run down building that they are already using. Here, look for yourselves:
=
Like you give a fux
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Look into what is happening in france, germany and britain. You assume it wont happen here because... ?
It's perfectly legal to build a mosque and in a sense I relish the thought. I hope they build fukin mosques all over the place and start a war with christianity. I hope they build one on either side of your house.
I'm just pointing out what WILL happen for certain. Perhaps in 20 years you will remember what that idiot emotionalist moron robj101 said on an internet forum.
edit: ok so building one on either side of your house is harsh, but it made me chuckle.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
By the way, what christian driven countries have we been at war with lately? Think on the rammifications of this statement and _____.
Just a thought, I could be completely off but I think it is a consideration.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
DPs
"This human is durable"
Indeed. As I told Bobspence, I'm in a constant state of indifference to what people think should happen, or should become common practice, etc. I'm also about as diehard an antisentimentalist as... I currently know of.
Of course, that doesn't mean my thought processes can't be influenced...
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
If you can be influenced in a way then you either want to be or have doubts as too your own position. I don't have many doubts but on rare occasion I run across one.
For example, I very much doubt you come off irl anywhere near the way you do here. I like to think I am pretty much the way I talk here, but I am a slow thinker and not quick witted enough without the delay of button mashing and editing which we are all granted here.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
False dichotomy. You are starting to sound like b37 -and the whole 'respect the rights of others if you want yours respected' mantra. Because, y'know, the human race has such a wonderful history of keeping the playing field level-, starting with this sentence.
If you mean "while talking to family members and polite company", then yeah, I'm very disingenuous. Around everyone else? Nope, I won't spare anything from their ears...
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Where does it say to respect anything?
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin