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Islamic center
Posted on: August 20, 2010 - 6:23pm
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Islamic center
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With all of this debate concerning the Islamic Center,I was wondering what is your take on this issue ? 
I can't believe all the right wingers saying it should be banned. These idiots spend Tuesday waxing poetic about the founding fathers and the Constitution Of These Great United States and then on Wednesday they turn around and try to pull this shit?
Jesus H. Christ.
And the Dems aren't much better. The whole thing is an absurdity. I agree with Obama, it might not be the smartest thing the group could do, but to oppose them goes against a central pillar of our enshrined freedom. Unless they do something illegal, leave them the fuck alone.
Edit: I can't say it enough, I am honestly flabbergasted that politicians even have the gall to discuss this. The fact that their electorate can't see the reeking hypocrisy of the entire situation makes me depressed about the blind and willful ignorance of humanity.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Since my job requires me to be in the car a lot I find myself listening to talk radio way too much. All week I have been yelling and cussing at the radio as people who supposedly are all for freedom and are the first ones to scream about property rights and religious freedom have been railing against the stupid mosque. Stupid %^$#6 hypocrites.
If you want to protect freedom, you have to protect everyone's freedom even when their actions offend you. By railing against it the republicans have simply shown their true colors. Most don't really care about freedom as an ideal, they just use it as a talking point to get control for themselves. Bastards. That is what is wrong with America today and I don't know how to fix it. Do the country a favor and don't vote for either republicans or democrats throw them all out on the streets and add them to the unemployment stats.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
I agree with the other posters. Let's yell about constitutional freedoms and private property rights, then let's yell when that private property is utilized in a way we don't like. And freedom is for me but maybe not for everyone else.
I agree with Beyond - freedoms are for everyone, especially when other people expressing their freedom makes you uncomfortable.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Make it a zone of freedom from religion, and build an "Imagine No Religion" monument. This would be one of a very few things for which I will donate some money.
My take is I don't honestly give a shit what they do with the abandoned Coat Factory building, but unlike Beyond, I can't say I'm surprised with either party's reaction. I find it sardonically amusing but not particularly stunning.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
We can put the sign near ground zero and the spot where John Lennon was gunned down. "Imagine" .
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
If some muslims flew a jet aircraft full of people into the Sydney Opera House then other muslims tried to open a mosque under the Toaster would I like it? Nuh. It would really shit me off. I appreciate the principles of a free society and the fact allowing a
mosque says more about America's bigness of spirit than anything else but it would still bug the utter fuck out of me. Especially in light of an almost completely absent moderate islamic commentary.
I was fascinated to read a US imman recent comment that the U.S. 'probably didn't deserve 9/11'.
Rightly or wrongly the way I comprehend that attack is by transposing it onto my own city and my reaction is not a good one.
Of course, if I could stretch out my hand and grind every house of worship on the planet into fine powder and scatter it over the ocean I'd probably do it.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Well, I care about this so much that I really feel the need to correct Jeffrick on a point of detail.
John Lennon was gunned down outside the Dakota apartments, which are about 8km from ground zero. The place that you are probably thinking about is the Dakota Roadhouse which is the bar next door to the mosque. It happens to be a relatively cheap place to swill up (which should make the moslems happy about the area). The bar has a motto: When Too Much is Never Enough.
That and the fact that, as I have already said in about three other threads on the matter, there are already two mosques within two blocks of ground zero. One of them being the building that they want to tear down and replace with a shiny new one.
As far as people being bigoted and hating moslems, well I did not need this news story to stand aware of that matter. So um, yah, there are a bunch of people who are willing to throw logic out the window on this. All that they need to do is find some logic to dispense with first. Again, I did not need this news item to be aware that they are ignorant pricks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I do see another danger here that I have not seen covered elsewhere.
What actually happened that day is that they took down two huge buildings. Big fat fucking deal. They were two huge buildings where most of what went on in them was about money. That shows how well they know what America is really about. Pretty much they have no fucking clue. Two big fucking buildings...so fucking what.
If you have clear skies tonight, go outside and look due south about halfway above the horizon (that direction obviously does not apply to the form members from OZ). The moon happens to be lovely tonight. Not only is it lovely but it is a place. Americans have been there (with lots of help from the Canadians – thanks guys). We went there to frost the Soviets, who were a real enemy with the power to change our way of life.
Most of the middle east still does not have indoor plumbing.
What we are doing by declaring the area off limits to moslems is that we are turning it into some kind of shrine. It was never a shrine before because it was never a symbol of what America is about, except to people with no toilets.
If we want a shrine to what America is about, then let's call the moon that shrine.
However, by making ground zero into a shrine, we debase ourselves as a people. We lower ourselves to people who are all about those two big fucking buildings. All because of a bunch of people who are basically ignorant about America. People who were led by some dude who happened to be worth $100,000,000 USD.
Motherfucker.
=
No one would probably care if it was a church or synagogue, wat, or shrine or sort.
What most people don't know is there were 60+ Muslims killed in 9/11.
Largely, I think it Islamaphobia...
“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”
If a group murders thousands in the name of some invented god you are going to get a reaction against that group in the place the atrocity took place. I think that's fairly normal human behaviour. It's a sensitive issue, no question about that and talking about it openly from all sides seems the best way forward.
Personally, I think of all the world's religions, saudi islam is the worst. Surely, I'm not the only one who thinks so. Its openly anti-western, anti-U.S. position is hardly going to win a mosque support in NYC. Obviously American islam is a different animal but it's clearly not a very sensitive beast. As you say, muslim extremists definitely kill their own people for the most part and do so with every sign of keen enjoyment.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
3 Reasons the “Ground Zero Mosque” Debate Makes No Sense
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I don’t usually write about politics. It’s important, but something I want no part of – kind of like a raw sewage treatment facility. But frankly, I haven’t been this upset in a long time. And it’s due to the logic-hating, herd-mentality rhetoric that some have been flinging in opposition to the so-called “Ground Zero Mosque.” For the uninitiated,
there are plans to construct an Islamic Community center in lower Manhattan. And, of course, lower Manhattan is where the World Trade Center stood before terrorists destroyed it, thereby murdering 3,000 Americans. I was working in New York City at the time. As was my father. As was my pregnant wife. I remember the day well. And the days that followed. I think most of all, I remember standing on the Staten Island Ferry, coming home with 200 other silent, reverent New Yorkers of every age, race, and religion, as we watched our city still smoldering a full week later. And it is with this backdrop that I can say to every politician spouting off and opposing the construction of this Islamic community center: “Shut up. Go away. You hate America.”
How did this happen? Well, basically a complacent or a complicit media helped perpetuate three ideas that are either outright lies or intellectually dishonest arguments designed to bring out the very worst in all of us. And as you continue to hear them–and you will–take out this column which you will have already printed and laminated, and recite thusly:
1. It’s Not at Ground ZeroThe proposed structure is not on the hallowed ground of the former World Trade Center. It’s at an abandoned and private building blocks away that used to be the Burlington Coat Factory. That means that if every one of the “g’s” that Sarah Palin drops when she’s talkin’ folksy were 10 by10 feet large, you could still stack over 120 of them from Ground Zero to this community center. Easy.
That sort of makes all the difference, doesn’t it? I know, when I first heard they were building a mosque at Ground Zero, I literally said, “What the fuck.” Like out loud and everything. I didn’t even pull a “WTF” despite years of writing for the Internet. That’s because for the last nine years, we New Yorkers have listened to countless proposals and plans and ideas of how to best rebuild the area while honoring the memories of those who died. And suddenly it seemed we were being told, “Yep, it’s all decided. Mosque. We want a mosque here. Just feels right.”
And to those who say that any location in lower Manhattan is too close for a Muslim structure, let me remind you that right now, in the shadow of what would be the former World Trade Center, there’s a Halal Meat Hot Truck with a multi-denominational line that wraps around my building every day at lunch time. And I’m positive that’s owned by a Muslim. And I’ve even suffered at his hands. (Spoiler alert: avoid the goat rhoti). Should he move a few more blocks away too? Of course, not. That would just be silly, right? Is it different? Why? Because mosques are religious and the 911 terrorists perverted Islam into something violent and hateful? Guess what? Those knights did the same thing to Christianity for the 300 years of the Crusades, and no one’s saying that churches shouldn’t be built anywhere in … Europe.
2. It’s Not Strictly A MosqueA mosque by definition is a purely religious structure. This is a large proposed community center, open to the public and set to house, among other things, a basketball court. Yes there will be a prayer space inside it as well, but you don’t call St. Mary’s Hospital a church because it happens to have a chapel inside it, do you? Well, maybe you do. You read about politics on the Internet from a guy who claims not to write about politics, so maybe you’re functionally illiterate. But the point is, you shouldn’t.
But “Islamic Community Center open to the public” doesn’t have the same ability to scare people the way “mosque” does. I mean, you hear “mosque” you think mosquito, you think STING! You hear “mosque” you think “mask,” you think DECEPTION! You hear “community center” you think “OK. One more place I’ll never go.” So, yeah, clearly the decision was made by those who hate you to call this the “Ground Zero Mosque” even though it’s not at Ground Zero and not technically a mosque. Why are we still discussing this? Why haven’t you already asked Sarah Palin if she’s the devil on her Twitter account? Oh, that’s right. Because the devil is supposed to be good at lying.
3. You Can’t Simultaneously Acknowledge A Right And Insist That Your Government Suppress ItBut the real reason I’m writing is not just because of people like Sarah Palin, but because of shameful, spineless panderers like Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. Here’s a statement from each of them designed to give the appearance of being tolerant while adhering to good old-fashioned common sense values:
From Sarah Palin’s Twitter Feed:
“We all know that they have the right to do it, but should they?”
And from Harry Reid’s spokesperson:
While respecting that Muslims have a First Amendment right to religious freedom, Reid “thinks this mosque should be built some place else,” his spokesman Jim Manley said Monday.
Let me make something clear. In order to make these statements you must hate two things: logic and America. There is NO way to say that an individual has a protected right to do something and simultaneously criticize your government for not suppressing the execution of that right. There is no way for President Obama or any other president to put a stumbling block in the way of the free exercise of religion without violating the sanctity of that freedom. Should I say it more simply? OK.
You can’t legally stop people from obeying the law.
The Burlington Coat factory is private property. Those who want to build on it are private citizens. They are violating no law in wanting to build a community center. Under what authority do you propose we stop them? There is no “unless you’re a Muslim within X yards of a national tragedy exception” to the free exercise of religion. Do the Gingrichs and Palins and Reids want to start a precedent where you can compel people not to exercise the freedoms guaranteed under our Constitution provided enough people don’t like you?
In the days following 911 it was very popular to say that we couldn’t do anything differently in America or “the terrorists would win.” We can’t stop driving gas guzzling cars. We can’t stop supporting dictators in other parts of the world for financial or political gain. We can’t vote for a Democrat. Most of that was rhetoric. Some of it was probably true. But one thing is definitely true: if we ask our leaders to start dishonoring the freedoms that make this country great, the terrorists surely will have won. And I don’t want to see that. Because unlike those with power and influence who would lie to you, I love America.
Read more:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/#ixzz0xDwzQuLY
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I am a New Yorker, and was there when the towers fell... What bothers me most about this is that neither Liberals nor Conservatives are asking (what I consider to be) the right question... Like evrything else, they are lining up on either side of this issue without any regard for common sense...Everyone recognizes the right to Freedom of religion... The question I would ask is... "Is Islam really a religion?... or is it a political agenda mandated by the totalitarian doctrine of the Koran?"... Ok, thats 2 questions...
Here is a long boring article I wrote on this topic... http://ezinearticles.com/?Islams-Bigger-Picture&id=4862274
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
Good question(s)...
I've wondered about that myself concerning Islam and other religions.
There's never been a good, clear line between what is religion and what is politics...If someone has a clue, clue me in.
“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”
You understand that I believe they can put a mosque there legally and by law.
Now that that is cleared up, consider legalities and morals. What does law have to do with morals? Is the letter of the law our basis for morals and values? Do we need to run around trying to do everything that is legal? The best moral example I can think of is the fact that rats have no rights as animals. They can be tortured legally and fed to other "pets". Does this mean I should string my pet rats up in my front yard and disembowl them for the public to see? Would this be considered proper and moral even if I were attempting to express how these rats have no rights by demonstrating it in such a fashion?
They can put up a million mosques, but their choice of location is poor and their continued determination amidst such controvery is even poorer in fact it makes one think they may really have an agenda other than to promote "peace, love and harmony" considering it is creating dissent and hard feelings before it has even gone up.
Sidewalk easements are city property. If the city decides to put something you strongly disagree with in front of your house will you stay quiet because it is "legal"?
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
It isn't on city property, it is on private property and unlike the Greek Orthodox church they are not asking for any public money to build the structure. Of course, it will be exempt from property taxes which is BS but it would be exempt from property taxes wherever it was built. So if the city puts something I disagree with on public property sure I'm going to raise a stink, they would be using my tax money to put up something I disagree with. If a private individual or an organization wants to build something I don't like on property they purchase it isn't my place to throw a fit. If so many people are against it being there why don't they raise the money and purchase the property? (Ah the good old capitalist way to solve the problem.) Why are they trying to get the government to steal the property?
A good comparison is the Touchdown Jesus statue here in Ohio. It was a ridiculously ugly statue and now that it was destroyed they are going to rebuild it and probably make it even more ridiculous. I don't agree with it at all and I certainly don't like having to look at the thing every time I drive by it but at the end of the day it is none of my business.
The ironic thing is that if all the right wingers didn't make such a big hairy deal out of the Mosque most of the world wouldn't even know it existed. Do you know how much money they would have to spend to get the kind of publicity it has gotten the past couple weeks? If the project does go forward it will probably become the best known and most frequently visited Mosque in the US.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Freedom of speech says I can bitch all fukin day long, are you trying to undermine MY freedom?
Lets get all politically correct and use it like a muslim.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
The first amendment states "Congress shall make no law....". It doesn't say a word about other people telling you that you are off base just a tad.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
But you're criticizing Muslims for not being politically correct. You're saying they should change their behavior to minimize social offense.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Regarding the construction of the Park 51 Islamic center... I am simply seeking an answer to this Question: What happens when The Constitutional Right to Freedom of Religion Conflicts with The Constitutional Obligation to ensure the Domestic Tranquility, and to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic? Or are we supposed to ignore that 2nd part because it's politically incorrect?
Has anyone noticed the political Islamification presently going on in Europe?... and that the tactic of "playing nice" doesn't work?.....I will maintain that the constitutional right to Freedom of religion doesn't apply because Islam is a Totalitarian political ideology, and the Koran is not metaphorically interperatable as anything else... It can call itself a religion, but in what way does it differ from Nazi-ism other than the fact that Hitler wasn't smart enough to claim Mein Kampf has the God inspired Holy Writ? The main difference, as I can see between islam, and the Nazis is that the Reich treated women better... Otherwise they are both Totalitarian ideologies hell bent on conquest ...
...and because I am such a plug whore, once again I'll post my article for those of you who either missed it, or were smart enough to ignore it, and me: http://ezinearticles.com/?Islams-Bigger-Picture&id=4862274
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
Hey you want to call all muslims slimy scumbags and stand outside the mosque eating bacon all day with nice offensive signs I have no problem with that. I also have no problem with construction workers saying they will refuse to help build it. The only point I have a problem is when government power is used to prevent them from building their center on private property.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
And which section of the Constitution did you find that in? Right next to the "good & plenty" clause?
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Ensuring Domestic tranquility is in the Preamble...and defending the constitution against all enemies, foreign & Domestic is part of the Oath of office... You're pretty funny though... "Good & plenty"... Hilarious... You should have been a comedian, instead of an asshole.
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
In order to do that you would have to prove that this mosque is supporting terrorism or harboring terrorists kind of like the consitutional protection against false accusations.
Do you know how many mosques are in America that have nothing to do with terrorism?
How about not allowing people of color in the same public areas with white people exclusively out of the purpose of public tranquility? I do not see a big difference between this and what you write.
However, in many countries some "religions" are outlawed as cults. It would be fantastically great if Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are banned altogether as dangerous cults. Until then, it is a race to afterlife.
Wow. This... thread has gotten funny over the past 7-8 posts!
That's because "racism" has steadily become one of the biggest weapons in the leftist's arsenal since the Civil Rights days of the early 60s (thanks in large part to Jesse Jackson, Sharpton, and Spike Lee.)
I like drawing asymmetrical comparisons myself: in B199ER's pot legalization thread, my first response was to compare the "black market" argument with child pornography.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Did I ever insinuate that the government should step in and stop it? No and if they do there is a problem. But if enough people are telling you to turn your music down maybe it would be prudent to do so, unless you enjoy pissed off neighbors.
So it sounds like we agree but you try to make it sound like we do not which is where the drama comes in. You simply do not care if they place a mosque near an area where thousands were killed by muslim extremists and I do. The only way to make an arguement on your end from this point on is to say that my complaining is wrong and I do not think that is something you can really prove.
It is nice that all atheists do not house the same programming.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
That is debatable and in the eye of the beholder. Placing a mosque for the reasons they "claim" could be construed as playing it in a politically correct fashion.
Politically correct is often based on perspective.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
I'm actually with Harris on this.
Say, you hate cookies but like candies. Would you support an anti-sweets party? Perhaps, you will if you throw up when you see cookies and can live without candies, but you will not if you can tolerate cookies and get crazy without candies.
My point is that it when we talk about cookies' intolerance, bringing up to the discussion the anti-sweet party is an unnecessary complication.
BTW, I am not left or right, I am a right-wing socialist.
It isnt like it's a no-brainer for theists to lie about being atheist, or anything.
I wasn't declaring you left or right, anyways.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
"Congress shall make no law...." If they wish to build a community center that happens to have a portion of the building set aside for prayer to their god, where they peaceably assemble to play basketball, and Congress has made no law prohibiting same, then the first amendment is satisfied.
It also says to "establish Justice" and what justice is there if you can't build a fucking basketball court on your own private property? And what about "Blessings of Liberty"? Whose liberty? Yours and no one else?
I agree being nice doesn't work with those poorly educated peoples from 3rd world countries. And I agree that being a woman under Sharia law sucks big time. No one is advocating same.
And I agree that the Koran is hard for us to understand why anyone would think it was applicable to today's world. But then we all agree with that and we all lump the bible in that category as well.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
I am like Rob in that my problem isn't about the Mosque... It's about the failure to recognize Islam as Politics.... Politicians and people in the media are calling Islam a "Religion of Peace" without having ever read the Koran... The say it because of political correctness...
I just can't help but have the feeling that if the Fundamentalist Christian Right,,,,and the Glenn Becks & Sarah Palin's of the world were in favor of this Mosque, and very much Pro Islam... That the Liberal Agenda would automatically be against it... and many of you who are quick to label others as racists would find suitable rationalizations.... I understand that the Christian Right are utter Jizzbags, and have been at odds with Rational thought for so long that it's easy to accept Islam as a common enemy...
Folks, I am hardly a conservative... For this board, maybe I am... But I would like to Kick Rush limbaugh in the Klump as much as any of you... I have a problem with Violence against women...violence aganst Gays, Censorship, and a host of other things condoned...make that MANDATED by Sharia law... All across Europe there are protests to impose Sharia Law, and until Imam Rauf condemns radicalism, and acknowledges that Muslims in America must abide by our Laws...then sorry... I see them as a clear and present danger... This messageboard went bannanas when threats of violence censored South park.... Does anyone think that is going to get better?.... The proof many of you seek is happening right now in Spain, England, Italy and france....
Also, for the record... This position brings me no joy whatsoever... I recognize the middle east's contrinutions to the world in Science, mathematics, Art, Music and Litterature... Not to mention that Smokin' Hot New Miss America... I want nothing more than to change my opinion about this... But as John Adams said:
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
Fair Point Cap... But like I said... My problem is Not about this Mosque, or better put "Islamic center"... I totally recognize their RIGHT to build there... Especially if they follow through on their promise to make it open to everyone... (However I doubt that a couple of gay men holding hands would be welcome, but that is conjecture on my part)... My problem is that as Sam Harris put it : "People's Fear about Islam at this point in History is warranted, and we have to have a rational discussion about it"
I submit into evidence
Exhibit A- The Koran... which is replete with directives to "Kill or Convert" the infidel.... not to mention many laws that are in direct violation to our constitution... If someone can show me how these directives can be interpereted metaphorically... I will acknowledge that... But like I said... i have a copy right here next to me, and I am presently highlighting every call to violnce (in pink) and Every mention of peace (in Blue)... lets just say that Blue has a lot of catching up to do...
Exhibit B- Present day Europe... Things ain't pretty over there...are They all Bigots too?
Exhibit C- Character Witnesses Rushdie, Harris and Condell (I'll leave Hitch alone right now for obvious reasons)
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
The preamble simply states that the purpose of writing the Constitution was to insure domestic tranquility. That is far from being a "Constitutional Obligation" as you claimed. The Constitution explicitly protects freedom of religion while prohibiting establishment of religion. Furthermore, the Supreme Court has made it quite clear that the preamble does not add anything that cannot be found elsewhere in the Constitution. Rather, it is meant as what it is, a preamble. It is an introduction and explanation of the purpose of the Constitution.
If you have any real interest in Constitutional Law see Jacobson v. Mass [197 U.S. 11 (1904)] where the Court states "the Preamble indicates the general purpose for which the people ordained and established the Constitution" and "[the Preamble] has never been regarded as the source of any substantive power conferred on the Government"
The oath of office in the Constitution says
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States"
If you randomly make up things that are not in the Constitution and pretend there is some kind of Constitutional conflict don't be surprised when you are called out on it some of us who actually read the thing.
robj101- I interpreted your original post as accusing me of attacking your freedom of speech and just wanted to clarify I don't care if you complain about the center. Complain to your hearts content. I don't care about your complaining anymore than I care about them building the mosque. Heck, I won't even say your complaining is wrong. If people complaining convinces them to abandon the project and one less religious building is built the world will be a slightly better place.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
I don't think it is debatable. You didn't say that the mosque shouldn't be built because we should reject politically correct reasons for allowing it, such as acceptance of outsiders despite possibly having legitimate reasons to fear or dislike them. You said that the people who would build the mosque should refrain from exercising their right and possibly legitimate need to do that out of sensitivity to those who may be offended. How can the "beholder" interpret that as anything other than an argument for political correctness? No matter what reasons have been given for building it in the first place that doesn't really affect what you've said.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
All I can say rich is that it has become far more of an emotional issue than one of legality. The reality is they are not building at ground zero, nor is it a mosque, it is an islamic community centre which plans to house a culinary school, an auditorium, a swimming pool, a basketball court, and yes, space for prayer, but that isn't exactly a mosque. However if a they are going to stop building an islamic community centre that they believe, as you put it and correct me if I am wrong, that those that follow islam are enemies of the state? If so what exactly constitute as an enemy of the state? Is it religious belief? Or actions against a nation? Membership to a particular group? of philosophical or ideological beliefs? Last time I checked it was a specific group that attack the US, yes they follow the islamic religion, but does that make all islamic believers followers al-qaeda? or enemies of the state?
I mean all different groups have caused problems in the US. To banned islamics from building a perfectly legal building just because a group (Al-qaeda) decided to launch an offensive attack to the US and more or less declare war, means any one that follows that faith is now an enemy of the state? Well then that is very broad statement really. I can understand banning members of al-qaeda, but in all seriousness making the statement you made Rich, well it seems more of an emotional reaction than one of a rational mind. If this is the case we might as well stop christians from building anything near hospitals since it was christians groups that bombs and killed abortion doctors, might as well banned any members of the christian religion and call them enemies of the state since it was these terrorist groups that did this.
In the end, it's a broad statement with really no backing to consider an entire faith an enemy of state. It's more of an emotional reaction.
I can understand the emotion reason why they do not want this built, at the same time I can see why islamics want to build something there to try to heal some of the wounds in New York and in the states in general as well. But however whatever happens, we gotta really step back and look at the bigger picture, because banning this, we might as well start banning anyone of any belief, atheist could be considered enemies of the state, as could any other minority group.
And if you continue misquoting me, don't be suprised if I call *YOU* out on it.... I never said that was in the oath of office for the presidency or in the constitution...You wanted to make an argument based on your ignominious predilections, and assumed that...This is the oath of office I am reffering to:
U.S. Federal and Military Oath of Office
" I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.''
.... and if i worded this ambiguously, sorry... But you're a snippy little shit... I hope your daughter marries a Muslim, and gets beaten daily as per sharia law...
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
All Fair points Canuck, sir... But I'll say agin... I have much less of a problem with Park 51 being built than I do about the nature of the discussion, and how opponents are being labeled as racists... If you read my article, I never once say that it should not be built...Just as we can't identify every Muslim as terrorists we also can't ignoreIslams global political impact, and how they are changing the political dynamics across Europe... Like I also Said... If Imam Rauf would acknowledge that American Muslims must adjust to American laws, and denounce violence... Hell, I'll lay the first fucking brick...
I also say in the article that the united States has a responsibility to Protect Muslims both here and abroad who recognize the value of Western Civilization... I just believe that in order to do that, we can't stick our heads in the sand regardiong the Koran, and the content of its doctine...
BTW... Thanks for the civil disagreement... I really appreciate it...
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
The thing is Rich, many muslims are not violent at all, I mean violence is in all holy books really, but we can't say to someone your an enemy of the state because your religion advocates violence against anyone that doesn't follow the same religion, they have to do such a thing first. So many muslims live the US that never once act in a violent manner. I say let them build it, however they also know the consequences of it, the backlash due to the emotional nature of A) where they are building and b) because of their religious beliefs. In the end, the constitution only guarantees that the government won't do anything, it doesn't mean the society at large has to like it, and can't oppose the building of the cent re, although with that said, we should stop various other groups from building their own cent res because of members of a fringe group or those extremist believers have cause problems in the US in the past. Do it to one, to it to all, be fair and square in the end. However I agree that you cannot be a racist for opposing the building of such a building, islam is not a race.
That's cool Man...I thought I had just said that... But maybe I didn't... This can be an interesting medium to communicate in....
But regarding Islam as less of a "religion" than a political ideology, and the danger it poses to the West... All I am doing is agreeing with many prominant Atheists... I don't see any threads bashing Rushdie or Harris for saying the same things I do... Maybe i need to be more famous, hahahaha
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
well I am not bashing them because well I am speaking to you directly, otherwise the reality is I do agree with your statement, those that live in the western civilization must learn to live in co-existence with those ideological beliefs of the west, if they do not like it, hey their is always muslim friendly nations. However I also know that we live both live in nations that up hold our constitutional laws and beliefs that all are welcome no matter what their religious or lack of religious beliefs are. It is what I believe makes Canada and the US the best places to live in the world (Canada edging the US out for our views on guns and of course our healthcare....right now which I do not take for granted). I personally rather that religion would be done away with in our society, not by force but due to education and rationality, that it would be viewed as no longer required. It would make it far easier than having to deal with so many religious groups, alas that is not what our nations are founded on.
You said,
Seemed pretty clear to me you were talking about the Constitution and the oath in the Constitution. I don't see what the federal/military oath has to do with the issue. I thought it was pretty clear you were making an argument that there was a Constitutional conflict concerning the issue. If that wasn't your argument sorry didn't mean to misquote you.
lol, your funny.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Those that will sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither~ Benjamin Franklin
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
You are correct I didn't really say that but my reasoning stands, if they want to claim political correctness I can do the same in my own view, again it is perspective. They can claim to want to build this on some politically correct reasoning and by that same reasoning I can claim they are simply abusing political correctness and to me I am being politically correct in saying such. It's like ping pong.
Politically correct or not it's a garbage idea. I don't give a rats ass about political correctness really but if they can abuse it so can I.
In Islam there is no seperation of church and state Church IS state.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Again you people add 1+1 to make 3. I am not sacrificing any liberty, if I were to stay silent I would be sacrificing it.
I can dislike it all day long and at the same time approve of it in the legal sense. How can you keep ignoring this? I may not agree with what you are saying but I will defend your right to do so. In this case it seems like "I do not agree with your disagreement because it is the law that they can put up a mosque so stfu."
It seems most people who have an opinion lack the ability to see what could be used for greater productivity despite their own petty concerns.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Lucky this wasn't taken literally during the War of Independence and WW2. I'm sure those old boys would have much preferred the liberty of surfing to having their bodies torn to pieces by lead slugs and high explosive.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
That was more to Rich than to you. Of course you can piss and moan about it, and I can also call you out on your protest.