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Islamic center
Posted on: August 20, 2010 - 6:23pm
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Islamic center
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With all of this debate concerning the Islamic Center,I was wondering what is your take on this issue ? 
"According to popular interpretations of Islam, Muslims are not free to change religion or become an atheist: denying Islam and thus becoming an apostate is traditionally punished by death in men and by life imprisonment in women, though in only three Islamic countries is apostasy currently subject to capital punishment. Since an apostate can be considered a Muslim whose beliefs cast doubt on the Divine, and/or Koran, claims of atheism and apostasy have been made against Muslim scholars and political opponents throughout history.
In Iran, atheists do not have any recognized legal status, and must declare that they are Muslim, Christian, Jewish or Zoroastrian, in order to claim some legal rights, including applying for entrance to university. Similarly, Jordan requires atheists to associate themselves with a recognized religion for official identification purposes, and atheists in Indonesia experience official discrimination in the context of registration of births and marriages, and the issuance of identity cards.
In Egypt, intellectuals suspected of holding atheistic beliefs have been prosecuted by judicial and religious authorities. Novelist Alaa Hamad was convicted of publishing a book that contained atheistic ideas and apostasy that were considered to threaten national unity and social peace. Compulsory religious instruction in Turkish schools is also considered discriminatory towards atheists."
(This is a wiki lift).
Point is, if we were living in a majority muslim nation this site would be banned, it's founders murdered, our friends here like Thomathy, smartypants and others would be imprisoned or in hiding and we'd be accused of apostasy the punishment for which is death.
So - do I want to live in a muslim nation? No. I don't. I don't want anything to do with muslims. If I could vote to ensure the end of muslim immigration to my country, I'd definitely do so. As Rich says, some one talk us out of this position if they can. But not
captain pineapple unless she can prove she is in the presence of her brother or husband when she posts to us. Her uncovered opinions are making me uncomfortable.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
No, you are not conservative, but you are racially biased, and according to what you say you are ready to support violence against other racial or cultural group to protect your race/group.
I am not saying that this is necessarily bad .... however, you clearly associate danger that you feel with Quran and with people from east. There is a problem with this approach. For example, I am an atheist from a predominantly Christian country living in a foreign Islamic country. If Christianity is considered bad and dangerous, I would rather agree with people. However, if it is said that I, as a person from a predominantly Christian nation, present a danger no matter what are my religious and other beliefs, then this is a clear discrimination by association.
Are you aware that 1) not all people from middle eastern countries are Muslims and 2) not all Muslims beat their wifes?
I don't necessarily disagree with that reasoning though. Maybe they shouldn't build a mosque there because it's insensitive. Imagine if the nation that you identify with bombed a place and then built infrastructure there. I mean you don't have to imagine it because it happens on a pretty continual basis but I imagine that people who live in those places are pretty raw about it.
But you don't seem to agree with that reasoning so I'm just wondering why you really think a mosque shouldn't be built there.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Rich is not racist. As we all know - like all major religions - islam is pervasive in most all countries on the planet. Can we all stop mistaking dislike of islam for disliking a race/some races/any races now please?
Anyone who does not understand a pronounced dislike of islam by atheists should please jump onto SAB and read the Koran before posting further.
Personally, I dislike all religions, but the more hysterical the religion the more I dislike it. To my mind, Islam is not normal.
Are we being told that being tolerant of a doctrine that hates us and our atheism is morally correct now? For crying out loud. We're not bloody christians.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Faulty reasoning, a lot of communist nations oppress the people and yet we don't turn down socialists immigration, nor do we discriminate against socialists or socialist groups.
In Islam maybe, but people usually live in countries and not in Islam. There are several good examples of Muslim countries with secular governing systems. So, what are you talking about?
reasonable, Cap. I don't like islam. It's like meeting christianity circa 1500, administered in pyres by Sir Thomas More. As for progressive islam, scientific islam, an evolutionist imam. Forget about it.
Socialism is a different beast altogether. It does not have at its core a doctrine that espouses the immorality and justified eternal destruction of non believers. You can be a socialist and an atheist. You can't be muslim and an atheist.
I think the societies you are alluding to are just plain old totalitarian - true socialist states would never oppress their masses.
It still stands that if we lived in a muslim nation this discussion would not be possible and we would all be in mortal peril for saying things like, allah sucks dead dog's cocks, for instance.
In honesty, Cap, I know yours is the moral high ground. It's just ultimately perilous ground. Maybe after 500 more years of contact with rational secularism islam might be allowed to go and play with the other children.
But not yet.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Are you now implying that I do not agree with the "insensetive" aspect of this plan? ... /insert hairpulling cartoon icon here
Let me put it out there again. It is insensetive for muslims to wish to place a mosque near a place where radical muslims killed innocent people, it is also assenine of them to use a politically correct excuse to do so. Legally they have the right to place a mosque there but is this really the best place to put one? I am of a mind to let them know that placing a mosque there will incite people, I am also of a mind however to smile as they do place it knowing it will cause more religious strife. I have not mentioned this but either way I win.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Again, I don't think you can "call me out" unless I am advocating for the denial of such a mosque, I am merely stating my opinion on the proposed location of such a symbol.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."
And I agree with you. My reason in that response to Rich was that I, as a person who spend a few years in Berlin which has probably one of the largest populations of Turkish people after Istanbul, know that it is not the religion with all its horrible things (if fanatics follow them of course) but the alien culture that scares domestic people. I think this is what really scares Rich, because you need to be Glen Beck to seriously be afraid of the establishment of Sharia law in the US; establish Christianity first for God's sake.
I'm not suggesting that you don't believe it's insensitive. I'm suggesting that you don't believe people should refrain from such activity just because it is insensitive. If you believe that then you accept the validity of the concept of political correctness and you don't believe that it is asinine.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Has anyone actually come out and said all people from the mid east or brown skinned people are bad? Not all of them love islam, there are some atheists there in fact.
Here is a website one pointed out to me the other day: http://www.el7ad.com/smf/index.php?board=33.0
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
You should throw my religious intolerance in the mix as well.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
I'm talking about countries that have no real outside influence, Iran for example or Saudi Arabia.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
It's really the only conclusion I can draw at this point. It may be insensitive to build a mosque there. It is in my opinion. But why shouldn't people do things that are insensitive? You don't seem to have an answer for that.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
This could go on for an eon.
This is not "a little" insensetive, this seems to be an outright rubbing in of the nose. The only thing I can think of offhand they could do worse would be to collectively gather and piss on the ground there or to actually build the mosque right on top of it with a little victory pennant waving on top.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
You may be ambivalent about the subject and I see no reason to belabor it. The question remains of what exactly these people are supposed to be sensitive to. The people building the mosque and the parishioners aren't actually responsible for the plane crashes. They haven't done anything wrong at all but they are expected to be sensitive to the fact that they are unfairly associated with criminals in a rather overtly prejudiced way. So yeah, they are being insensitive but look at what they are being insensitive to. I doubt that you'd be sensitive to being blamed for something you have nothing to do with.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
well
it's not a bad muslims or moderate muslims problem
the problem it's in islam , in quran you have the right to kill everybody who are not muslims
i am ex-Muslims and if muslims here around me know about that the will kill me
Well, in the Bible, people are explicitly directed to kill non-Christians. So?
Implicitly, yes.
"Folks, I am hardly a conservative... For this board, maybe I am... But I would like to Kick Rush limbaugh in the Klump as much as any of you... I have a problem with Violence against women...violence aganst Gays, Censorship, and a host of other things condoned...make that MANDATED by Sharia law... All across Europe there are protests to impose Sharia Law, and until Imam Rauf condemns radicalism, and acknowledges that Muslims in America must abide by our Laws...then sorry... I see them as a clear and present danger... This messageboard went bannanas when threats of violence censored South park.... Does anyone think that is going to get better?.... The proof many of you seek is happening right now in Spain, England, Italy and france....
Also, for the record... This position brings me no joy whatsoever... I recognize the middle east's contrinutions to the world in Science, mathematics, Art, Music and Litterature... Not to mention that Smokin' Hot New Miss America... I want nothing more than to change my opinion about this... But as John Adams said: ..."
Glenn Beck #2.
here? What country are you talking about?
They just wont believe that moderate muslims are a problem and that what they follow is "bad" in general advocating killing and pedophilia among other things.
The same thing could be said about the book of the christian faith but christians all pretty much ignore most of the "bad stuff" in the bible these days unlike their islamic kin.
One need only look to europe to see what "moderate" muslims bring.
Nadim is a fb friend btw and seems to know quite a bit about islam.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
I would have said generalizing, we all know the mid east is the home of islam, doesn't mean I hate all mid eastern people just the religion that sprang forth from the place. I doubt very much that Rich is a racist, in fact after reading his views on most things I begin to wonder if he might be some kin or something lol.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
In this thread, I see for several times the reference to some Muslims-related troubles in Europe. Is this the issue of religion, slow original population growth, or just some flaws in immigration laws?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9LrvkXRQXQ
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
No big difference between Christians and Muslims indeed. This video reminds me pro-life activists and recent killing in Wichita.
Thanks for dropping by and giving us your thoughts. And take care of yourself.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
take the bible literally - certainly not in the way most muslims do with the koran. When drawing a cartoon of mahommed is a problem you have to wonder how open people are to the views of others.
How far do we take tolerance. Until we are no longer tolerated?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Okay. Here for you and Rich there seem to be two possible options:
1) Survival of fittest. Maybe we non-Muslims do not deserve to live on this planet?
2) Just say no to tolerance, say yes to racism. After all, I believe it is in the US only (?) N-word is a big problem, in most other countries it is a correct reference to race.
I just don't see it. Could you please give me a quote from the thread were Rich said something racist. Also please explain your reasoning to me in regards to the quote in case I still can't see it for myself.
to you in the usual way. Try watching this video. Then ask yourself if it makes you happy. This is a religion I don't like. Do you like it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FHHZ-BOMuI&feature=related
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
He is apparently saying religon is a race. The term he is looking for is "islamaphobe"
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
citation is in post #70. The reasoning is that by saying that all Muslims are bad and that we also recognize something good has come from the middle east, Rich implicitly expressed his unfavorable view of the entire group of people of middle east.
Yes, about this, plus the fact that the majority of people of that religion ARE the people of specific ethnic groups.
If it makes you happier, I would prefer no churches were ever built anywhere in the world ever again. That no children were taken into private places and indoctrinated with foul doctrines - ever again. As for the mosque/centre - it will be built and will make no difference whatever. Nevertheless I don't like islam. American islam, australian islam, british islam pakistani islam. Any fucking islam. I don't like it. You must think all religions are the same - all are equally benign. Where do you get that idea?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
So this means if I say catholics are fucking kiddy-fiddlers I am in fact racially vilifying the italians, irish, spanish and South Americans? Give me a break.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Okay, have you watched "Jesus Camp". The place where 9-10-year olds are talking the greatness of becoming martyrs in the name of Jesus, and that they are not afraid of physical death.
It is essentially the same in both religions. Both religions are bad. (I don't really know anything about other religions).
I know plenty of Muslim people, none of them literally believes in this b.s., none of them is going to go and kill a non-Muslim. Those people are from Iran, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Palestine, and Jordan.
Do you literally mean what you say? If this is so, and if we imagine for a moment that the propagation of catholicism in Italy is to the same degree as in Saudi Arabia, then I wish you a good luck to be welcomed in an Italian home.
Interestingly, if a professor say what you said, he may very well run into a big trouble involving discrimination accusations (which in some cases involve racism), but it is all fine to do this to Atheists on CNN.
And I agree both lots are crazy but the jesus campers weren't talking about suicide bombings were they? I don't know any muslims well. The ones I don't know well seem mostly normal.
Being in Australia we have heaps of people from the middle east who are christians or atheists and they're all great people, same as all other good people.
I would like to meet an articulate, moderate islamic person. Do such people exist? Anyway. They'll build the islamic centre in NYC. What the hell. I have a mosque 2 blocks away.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
It's Late, and I have had a few beers... so I'll make this brief...
Mr. 100%... If I am a racist, then so are Christopher Hitchens, Salman Rushdie, Sam Harris, and Pat Condell... who all make the same claims, and who can waddle and quack like nobodies business...... if you bothered to read my article (you obviously didnt) you would see that I maintain it is imperitive America Protect Muslims who recognize Western Culture... It is not people I take issue with, but the Doctrine... But it's easier to label somone as an islmophobe...
And Cap... Love the Ben franklin quote... I use it often... but I dont see how it applies... in WWII should we have allowed the Nazi's to build in Manhattan?...we *are* at war... all I ask is that we establish the intentions of Imam Rauf ....Asking that people who inhabit this country act in accordance with American law is hardly restricting anyone's Liberty...
and like i said before folks... If the Christian Right were for this, Most of you would be against it... and many of you are letting your (justified) hatred of the Christian Backed republican party cloud your judgment...
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
Illustrating a point. I'm sure the problem is limited to certain catholic priests who should have been allowed to marry in the normal human way. I don't want my off-hand illustration to suggest there's yet more people I never met I don't like.
I just don't like religion. Any religion. I'm not being rational about it in the least. Religion is a nightmare and violent religion is the worst.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
100 per cent - the doctrine of christianity accuses me of being so vile I deserve eternal torment. Islam says atheists are lower than dhimmis, a group who are considered beneath animals. In islam, atheists must convert on the spot or be murdered.
I feel justified in returning the intensity of this dislike. Religion is a hideous sort of cognitive apartheid. I wish there was a nearby planet I could go to where god did not exist. Sadly, I don't think I could outrun my own bitterness.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Rich, I did not read your article (since you said it's long and boring). I am not accusing you of anything. It's only what you said on this thread (not elsewhere) is so typical for an american who is always right. To me it sounded racial, and I am saying again this is not necessarily bad (a paradox for an american
). Never mind, keep writing your articles ....
Sounds to me like you're racist against Americans!!!... (Kidding)... But I *Did* also say that I am open to having my opinion changed on this, asked for people to refute my claims, and that I just bought "No god but God" in order to help me understand better... I wouldn't say those are the actions of an Islamophobe...
and like i also said... This can be an interesting medium to communicate in... sometimes we read what suits our predisposed assumptions... I am as guilty as anyone...
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
Well, yes. Though this does not readily apply to Australia, Rich said about the great danger of spreading Islam and protecting american freedom, lifestyle etc. He also recognized that Islam is most successfully spread in impoverished regions. The conflict is that the american way of protecting independence and freedom is often a way to impoverish other nations, so according to Rich, to spread Islam. So, what am I talking about... ah, "returning the intensity of this dislike" approach can lead to historic events of planetary proportions.
I fucking hate christianity and that shit came from the middle east!
Christ - just confessing that sin is such a relief. I feel - uplifted.
P.S. At some point Brian37 is going to find this thread...
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Nah ... I am a racist against human race, talking of Russia I criticize Russia, talking of America I criticize America, don't even ask me what I think of Israel or Palestine.
Of course, you are not a racist ... because basically everyone employed in the US has to go now through a "discrimination and abuse training".
If you say that Quran isn't a great book, and Islam isn't a religion of peace, then by your next sentence I think you will be addressing a non-Muslim population exclusively. It would be much easier to deal with Islam, if there was no Christianity, the US would be of 80+% non-believers, and there would be no paranoid idea to spread "american values"(tm?) around the globe. The big problem is that if you try to tell this in the US publicly, you risk to talk to your hand.
But I'm always going to take issue with a faith that does not recognise my right to be alive.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Which could be why islam is so bad, it has sat in it's own juices for so long.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
So in other words you are taking emotion over reason? If I won't let a Christian or Muslim get away with that, why would I let you?
And no, my stance isn't perilous ground, it's up to you to prove that it is perilous and I'm not convinced, you didn't apply the same logic to other things such as anarchists or socialists, or enviromentalists so why does those get exception to your reasoning on Islam?