Kids business (invitation to attend a Church)
I feel that I need to share my concerns and recent stories about my daughter before it gets too late. Maybe someone can help me to handle the situation regarding the relationship of my kids with Christian kids at her school.
My daughter's "best friend" has invited her yesterday to come with her to a Church. This friend told my daughter about a lot of fun stuff they do at Church, that everyone who comes for the first time gets an ice cream for free, etc. etc. The point that was apparently missed in the explanation was that any church has some strange relationship to some god.
The first thing I told my daughter was that I will not go to Church myself and since I do not let her to go there alone, so she cannot go. Okay, she decided to go to her best friend and tell her that she can't go, but maybe they can play together in our or there house. Fine, so we went to our neighbors house and I let my daughter to go and talk on her own. The mother of best friend appeared at the door, my daughter was talking to her, and I saw that stone-like mimics on the face of our Christian mom. Then I asked my daughter what happened, and she told me that she told approx. this: "My dad does not let me go to Church, so can your daughter play with me at my house?"
Okay, next was a 10 minute discussion between us on how she should and should not start a dialog. Next. My daughter decided to go to Church and ask them if it is a good Church or not and to look around. Fine, so we went to the Church and I let my daughter to go in alone. In 5 minutes, she was escorted out of the Church. When I asked her what she asked, she told that she started with "You know that gods aren't real? -How do you know? -Gods are like superheroes, they have powers, superheroes are not real, and none of people, not a single person has powers, so there are no gods. ...-So, where is your dad or mom?"
After all this, she went hysterical, because she thought that now she will not be let back into Church, and that she will not be able to play with her best friend. Also, she wanted to tell her best friend that there are no gods and that people who believe in gods are stupid. So, I spend the entire evening yesterday in soul-saving discussions with my daughter and I am still not sure what will happen at school in the next few days and then in the future.
Any piece of advice? I actually have never been at Church (in US church at least) and I am not a reliable source of information for my daughter in this respect.
One idea is to teach her to tell about her religion and beliefs approximately this:
"Russian are historically belong to Russian orthodox church tradition. There is no a single Russian orthodox Church in the radius of at least 200 miles or so. So, we do not attend any other Church." And then if someone who would ask why not we attend his/her the only true god's church, the answer is "would you attend a mosque if you happen to travel to Saudi Arabia for a few years?"
I don't know, I am getting exhausted about all this Church business and other kids talking about it with my daughter.
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When I was dateing my first wife, way back in 1977, we visited a nearby crazy religious aunt of mine. Catholic aunt made it a point to invite me and my then girlfriend with a Hindhu background, to mass with her on Sunday, I just ignored it like I always do but Shanta had a better answer; she said, "OK and you can come with me to the Mandir on Saturday, I have this great shalawar you can wear." Needless to say crazy aunt never went to the mandir and never asked Shanta about going to church again.
Can your daughter handle that situation. When they ask her to go to church. She can suggest going to a Mosque on Friday and a Jewish temple on Saturday, then church. Her friends are going to ask if her perants are muslim or Jewish. Her answer of course is "No but they are not christians eather and you want me to go to church, so let's all go to a mosque & temple & mandir to see what they're like also".
If the other parants complain to you about the suggestion, just say no problem and offer to drive all the kids to the mosque etc. and wait outside for them. This should cut down on the church requests.
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Thank you. This could be a good idea. The only problem is that I have never been in Mosque nor in Temple. Actually, we are Christians ... by tradition and we even have baptized our daughter when she was a few months old. Your approach would readily work for us and my daughter if there were a Russian orthodox Church anywhere near our town. Mosque would actually work too, I know one, and I know quite a few people who go there. It will take a little bit more learning and preparation though. What I mean, my daughter knows who is Zeus and a few other Greek gods, Invisible Pink Unicorn, and now we are learning about Flying Spaghetti Monster, but she has no clue yet about Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Yahweh, etc.
OK, I have done the whole “this is not the right flavor” thing myself. The problem is that it only works unless it doesn't. Then you have to be able to drop some quick insanity as cover fire while you get out of the situation.
I don't know how the whole orthodox thing will play out but I have asserted that I am Anglican only to be told that I was being invited to an Anglican church. At that point, I have to say basically “No, you are Episcopalians. That is not the same thing.” Many people will drop the deal at that point because they don't feel like doing battle. If they do press on, then you have to pull the whole “We only let straight married men serve Mass” or the “you serve canned grape juice instead of wine” type of things and hope for the best.
Potentially worse is when you are dealing with someone who is not even close to the claim that you make. However, they are convinced that they have something so right going on that anything else can't possibly be as right. The fundies tend to be pretty bad in this respect but anyone could have that going on. If that happens, then the best that I have been able to come up with was “Look, you just don't get it. You believe wrong stuff.” At this point, hope that you know enough about that specific group to come up with something to work with.
Since I have used that line, I can't tell you not to do it yourself. However, don't go into battle without being ready to deal with whatever comes up.
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Little girls are the cruelest creatures on earth. Speaking as an ex-little girl. It is all about belonging to the group or clique. The little girls in your area mostly all go to church, so church going is part of being part of the group. I am not much help in that respect as I never did belong to any of the popular girl cliques. I was usually a member of the nerd/wallflower clique. I would make a prediction that even if your daughter went to the popular girl church, being friends would be fraught with the usual fights and fall outs, kiss and be friends again that all little girls do.
And it will always be your fault. Sorry. No matter what you do. Let her go to church, don't discuss your own religious views and she has a fight with her friend and it will be your fault. Don't let her go and she doesn't have the other girl as her friend and it is all your fault. Let her go, but let everyone know you are an atheist so their parents ostracize her and it is all your fault. Let her go, but let everyone know you are an atheist so their parents try to convert you through her and it will be all your fault whether you go or not go to church. But then, even if there was no church issue, you and your daughter will go through times where no matter what you do, as her father, her problems are all your fault.
My recommendation is to do what you personally are comfortable with and realize this will pass. If you are true and honest to yourself, eventually your daughter will grow up and love you in part for your steadfastness and loyalty to your ideals. In the meantime, whatever you decide to do, continue with teaching her about the different irrational beliefs people hold. Including christianity.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
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Uhg, I hate the position this puts atheists in when they get upset at us for not brainwashing our children in the appropriate manner.
Personally, I would not let me daughter go to a church alone, but I would be fine going with her so I could act as a filter. Then the kid gets to play with her friend, you can minimize intellectual damage from brainwashing and you can help minimize how many embarrassing things she says.
Edit: And to reinforce what CJ said, when kids are this age people will try to shovel this stuff into their minds constantly. You've got to be a constant educating voice pushing rational thought...if you can do that without making her hate other people, you'll be golden.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
ROFL, gotta love kids honesty, I'd give a pretty penny to see their faces. I was asked to leave a church once when I was six after arguing with the Sunday school teacher that it would have been impossible for Noah to build an ark big enough for two of every animal. Pretty sad for Christians when they can be stumped by a kid. I am hesitant to give any parenting advice since I don't have any kids or plans to have any, but I went to several different churches with various friends while growing up and if anything it only made me more of an atheist. I never got any free ice cream though...
Sounds like your daughter has a pretty good head on her and getting brainwashed probably wouldn't be much of a danger. Although, her mouth might get her banned from seeing some friends and I don't know how big of a town you live in but if it is a smaller one I could see that becoming a problem.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Yeh, this morning she ran to the bus shouting to her "best friend": "do you believe in gods?!" I have a feeling we'll have to talk this evening again...
And the town is filled up with a good million of True Christians.
That reminds me... Some of my neighbours are Evangelical fundies. When I was a kid I attended a lot their activities, because they're all classmates and childhood friends of my mom, we knew their kids too... They're so happy about their church, communion and so on. During communism it was forbidden to gather religionally in privacy, only at a church with priest who was under control of the police. Having and reading a Bible on 2-year mandatory military service was even worse, that could get a private to jail for some days. So they felt really like Christian martyrs, must have done them good (besides some gastritic ulcers) and now they enjoy already 20 years of freedom.
In the end of summer, they have a little 3 days festival with Christian bands, sketches, and a film. I go mainly for the film, but also for a "tearoom" after that. I drink tea, mind my own business and always someone talks to me. We make a small talk, and every time I'm a fisher of sorts, i prey for the innocent little ichthyses that always get on the hook, always ask me if I believe in God. I usually explain them how fake their Bible is, with council of Nicea and two councils of Constantinopolis, what the Christianity originally was (teaching of mystical Jewish sect) and what is it now after several emperors, popes and kings edited it. (Scientology for poor people) Then I explain some other cultures' religional concepts and how similar they are to Bible, specially the teachings of mystical sects. If there's enough of time I describe how much is for example reincarnation much more logical and just than eternal damnation or eternal heaven. Between that, it's pure bliss, pure fun. I love how their eyes seem almost falling out. I love when they ask questions.
No, they won't throw me away, they always gather around to listen. I don't like too many people around, though. They're young people, I don't waste time with the old, they're not going anywhere from this business. I rather play safe with them. No, there is no throwing anyone out of anywhere, we're all neighbours and locals. If anything, I could always say that they started, they asked first.
It's just... well, maybe I should somehow become less expressive, less shining in the company and less overwhelming. I always try to be polite and user-friendly, but it's not enough, mom says. I guess it will be enough when my dear Christians will stop having these faces when I say something. It might save my life from lynching if I ever go to America.
But this is all somewhat off topic, because here I have not yet seen that people would try to convert other parents with kids. It's just a group of less or more fundy families that like to have their own church and unchanging doctrine for like past 50 years. Their own kids are rather unfortunate in direct proportion to their amount of faith. You know, faith and complete ignorance of the world makes them simple-minded and weak-willed, brought up for total obedience to parental authorities. Parents can do anything with them, and they do bad things, like forbidding them everything. (like travel by bus to school) Or if the children are grown up, we have a case that their dad took a big financial loan with his children as guarantees. He just told them:
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
How I would educate my kids.
1. Gods don’t exist people use them for scams and out of stupidity.
2. There are 2 types of people , people who are stupid and believe this crazy shit they are named idiots and people who use this to get money/power for the idiots we name them liars.
3. It is ok to lie to people out side your family and lie to exploit them and use them since friends will drop you and cheat on you behind your back. (this is how my parents teached me)
4. Since we know that god is nonexistent and we would appreciate the company of this person it is OK to lie to them and tell them that you believe in god to exploit her.
5. Alternatives fuck friends why do you need other people they will cheat you use them and ignore them.
BTW : I would not allow my children to get to a place that gives ice-cream since its only screams of indoctrination and filthy greedy bargaining with gifts and they would be required to point this out.
Is it really south a good idea to give me addictive candy that will rot my teeth and make me fat just so I can sucker into believing a idiotic religion ?
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
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This isn't a helpful comment, but I just can't get past them luring in kids with free ice cream. It sounds like they're borrowing their tactics from sexual predators...or maybe "borrowing" is the wrong word.
I think this hypothetical child would grow up to be a total jackass.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
I concur! Where can we donate to fund carx's sterilization?
I am very nearly Carx's polar opposite- which also goes to show how much atheism is not an ideology.
This is what I would teach my children.
1. Gods don't exist; people usually don't choose to believe in them, but are born into it, and it's very hard to think one's way out of something one didn't think oneself into. It's like a disease, and religious people should have our sympathies and help- unless they're being jack asses, in which case just avoid them like you would any jerk.
2. People all want to do right by themselves, but we're all also very selfish by nature, so it's a difficult to do the right thing while sacrificing self-service. To remedy the contradiction, people make up rationalizations, which is a kind of internal dishonesty, and hide the truth from themselves when they want to be self serving. We're all vulnerable to this tendency, and it's only through learning critical thinking that we can question ourselves and correct our rationalizations. Not all people have learned how to do that, but you can teach them if you're very patient. It's hard to unlearn habits, though, so you do have to be very patient.
3. It's never O.K. to lie unless your life is in danger. Lying for profit is a disturbing kind of emotional prostitution, and you'll never respect your ideals if you do. Most people don't understand this, and have become so accustomed to lying that to everybody, including themselves with their rationalizations, that they don't even understand what's real.
4. There are billions of people in the world, and you can go anywhere, and be anything you want- and meet any kind of person you can imagine and have the best friends you could ever hope for. Don't settle for less, and never sacrifice a part of yourself to do so. And most importantly, don't be afraid to let go when you need to- you will always have new friends.
5. Our relationships with others are the most important things in life. Yes, you will be hurt sometimes- and hurt badly; it may feel like the world is ending- but it will always get better, and you'll have great joy too. Avoiding happiness for fear of pain is only as practical as avoiding life itself- cherish all of your experiences and relationships, because they are your life.
To the OP:
It may be hard to hear, but a child's peers define who that child will grow up to be (and largely how emotionally traumatized) much more than the parents do. A child can forget old friends quickly and make new ones.
Depending on how much you're concerned about your daughter, you should consider moving to a place better suited to her childhood.
If I had a child, I would not rest in seeking friends for said child who would be good influences.
Of course, that's my answer to most things: Move. For me, it's profoundly simple. Some people are not willing to pick up so quickly (often it has to do with too much stuff, which is more of a prison for than a compliment to life)