Simple Proof to show why believing in the Christian God is irrational
Offline Assume: 1. God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and benevolent
2. God gave us free will
Result: 1. God knows how everyone will act
2. God knows which ones will be saved and which ones wont
--> Assume: Those who wont be saved are lost cases that under no circumstances would be saved. As dubious as this claim is, let's grant it to the Theists and say that God would not let someone willing to be saved go astray, or else salvation would be as much based on the person as the circumstances of their lives
3. The removal of people who wont be saved wont interfere in any way with the free will or salvation of those who will, or vice-versa
4. God could have created a world without people who wont be saved
Additional Steps 5. God, knowing the result of Earth's test, could have avoided creating this world and put everyone in Heaven
6. This world is unnecessary, redundant, and, given how many people wont be saved, perplexing with the proposition of an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent and benevolent God.
"The Chaplain had mastered, in a moment of divine intuition, the handy technique of protective rationalization and he was exhilarated by his discovery. It was miraculous. It was almost no trick at all, he saw, to turn vice into virtue and slander into truth, impotence into abstinence, arrogance into humility, plunder into philanthropy, thievery into honor, blasphemy into wisdom, brutality into patriotism, and sadism into justice. Anybody could do it; it required no brains at all. Just no Character."
"He...had gone down in flames...on the seventh day, while God was resting"
"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You should be taken outside and shot!"
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Offline here's a crash course in theology.........nowhere does the Bible suggest that evil is necessary for anything. Also, the Bible makes it clear that people are born by the will of Man, NOT by the will of God, so although God knows who will choose him, he doesn't choose who will be born.
The Bible doesn't come out and say it, no. But it is replete with examples of God needing evil to make his plans work.Examples:
1. The serpent in the Garden of Eden.
2. Job.
3. Judas Iscariot
4. Any opportunities for Jesus and or his disciples to cast out demons.
'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.
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Offline Quote:here's a crash course in theology.........nowhere does the Bible suggest that evil is necessary for anything. Also, the Bible makes it clear that people are born by the will of Man, NOT by the will of God, so although God knows who will choose him, he doesn't choose who will be born.
Quote:ok, these examples only tell us that God deals with the situation confronting him ie he uses the evil of others and turns it to ultimate good and that is true of his "macro-plan".The Bible doesn't come out and say it, no. But it is replete with examples of God needing evil to make his plans work.Examples:
1. The serpent in the Garden of Eden.
2. Job.
3. Judas Iscariot
4. Any opportunities for Jesus and or his disciples to cast out demons.
Except that the "situations confronting him" were of his own making.
Would Adam and Eve eaten of the fruit if God hadn't planted the serpent there to help them along?
Would Satan have bothered Job if God hadn't been such a braggart and made the bey?
Would Jesus have died by crucifixion without a betrayer?
Would the demon need casting out if it wasn't there (sent by God or at God's command)?
God needed evil so much he created his own Adversary.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
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Offline yes, of course it isn't a stupid point but whatever conclusion one came to, I don't see how it impinges on the existence or otherwise, of God.
I never said it impinges on the existence of a God, it impinges upon the existence of a God along the lines of which Christians believe. That's why at the beginning I specified which assumptions we were making. I made very sure that we were clear what type of God we were discussing, and then went on to prove that the assumptions most Christians make and what we have in this world are incompatible. Sure, it doesn't disprove all conceptions of God, but it does question the validity of a God with certain characteristics.
I understand where you're coming from because, as a materialist, but you have no choice but to opt for determinism. I don't quite see how you can even contemplate free will from your position. It has to be an illusion.
Without digressing too much, things like Compatibilism do exist, and I have not stated any metaphysical point of view that I hold. The reason is that whatever views I personally hold, for the purpose of this proof, we are assuming that God exists and that he gave everyone free will. That's the reason I put those two assumptions in the beginning, to avoid all of this confusion.
You are also conflating those who don't opt for salvation with "evil people"! This is an whole other debate. Until you prove otherwise I will give you the benefit of the doubt! Regarding what I regard as "free will", I'm happy to go with your implied definition.
I'm basing the idea that those who aren't saved are evil because that is what the Bible says, and the thread title is very explicit about what religion I'm addressing. The Bible holds that it is Jesus that purifies us from our sins (evil) and that those who have no salvation cannot be with God because they are impure (evil). I doubt many Christians, if any, hold the view that those who are sent to hell are good people.
I didn't say it was problematic to free-will. It doesn't affect any rationale for God's existence however.
Yes, in and out of itself, Step #3 doesn't affect many conceptions of God (unless the Theists posits that God has no power to interfere with human affairs, but that is hardly the Christian POV), but taken as a whole, all of the steps I propose prove that if a benevolent God were to exist, he would be quite capable of creating only those who will be saved, without interfering with free will, the existence of evil, etc. The problem attacks a specific kind of God.
good......... that doesn't render the point redundant.
You're going to have to be much clearer. I see no redundancy in my proof. I think you're greatly misunderstanding the problem. I suggest re-reading it from an objective point of view.
-sigh- everyone would freely "choose God" but have no choice but to choose God - how would anyone prove that free-will existed?
That's not quite true. The reason this works is the same reason why God can have omniscience and be compatible with free will (or, if they are inherently incompatible, then the Christian conception of God is compromised from the get-go) is because God knows how each person will act but not interfere with their choices. Given this, even though God already knows how we will act, he never interferes with Free Will. It's not that you don't have any other choice, it's just that God knows where your thought-processes will take you. Finally, it's not that nobody would have no choice but to to choose God, it is that everyone would find God and, out of their own free will, accept him. This doesn't violate free will, or, if it does, then it is what already happens in this world and it means that in our world, Free will does not exist.
here's a crash course in theology.........nowhere does the Bible suggest that evil is necessary for anything.
Actually, you're a bit wrong in your terminology. It wouldn't be a crash course in Theology, but Biblical studies. Theologians absolutely depend on the idea that evil is necessary for the greater good to answer the Problem of Evil. There's a reason why Alvin Plantinga went through great lengths to reconcile evil with an omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent God. Furthermore, if the Bible doesn't suggest that evil is necessary for anything, why would God allow it? Either the Bible is wrong when it says that God is good, or some explanation and use must be made of evil. That's why this argument exists in the first place.
Also, the Bible makes it clear that people are born by the will of Man, NOT by the will of God, so although God knows who will choose him, he doesn't choose who will be born. Is God going to determine everything in this "free-will" world of yours?!
If we assume that God is the creator of man, he already determined what attributes he would have, and what limitations man's knowledge would have, has he not? I don't think you've given the idea of Free Will, Evil and a benevolent Creator much thought, much less be familiar with the current state of Theology, as most of your objections are far behind the times.
"The Chaplain had mastered, in a moment of divine intuition, the handy technique of protective rationalization and he was exhilarated by his discovery. It was miraculous. It was almost no trick at all, he saw, to turn vice into virtue and slander into truth, impotence into abstinence, arrogance into humility, plunder into philanthropy, thievery into honor, blasphemy into wisdom, brutality into patriotism, and sadism into justice. Anybody could do it; it required no brains at all. Just no Character."
"He...had gone down in flames...on the seventh day, while God was resting"
"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You should be taken outside and shot!"
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Offline
you're into carps in a big way!
In this part of the country a carp is a trash fish, you throw them back.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
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Offline freeminer wrote:
you're into carps in a big way!
In this part of the country a carp is a trash fish, you throw them back.
Or you kill them to keep them from attacking the good fish.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
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Offline
Except that the "situations confronting him" were of his own making.Would Adam and Eve eaten of the fruit if God hadn't planted the serpent there to help them along?
1] God didn't "plant" him
2] Did they or did they not have a choice? Do you think a man should be deprived of ALL choice or just the moral ones?
Would Satan have bothered Job if God hadn't been such a braggart and made the bey?
One of Satan's primary tactics is concealment; generally, if you aren't a factor in spiritual conflict, he won't bother you. Job was. If you read Job 1 carefully you will see that while God praised Job before Satan, it was Satan who challenged God. Satan's problem was that normally he couldn't touch Job because Job habitually stood on righteous ground and gave him no opening. God's "problem" was that Job was tested by temptation but never by adverse circumstance. So the straight answer to your question is, no, if God had not given Satan an entre, perhaps he would never have had one. The reasons why he did so are a whole other discussion.
Would Jesus have died by crucifixion without a betrayer?
you don't seem to have come to terms with the reality of 'freewill'.......so perhaps you haven't come to terms with your own. You perceive the spiritual warfare of which scripture speaks as a "put-up job". Judas succumbed to real temptation and had a real choice.
Would the demon need casting out if it wasn't there (sent by God or at God's command)?
this is another misunderstanding. The realm of Earth was handed over to Satan by Man at the Fall. Satan is in rebellion. God does not order the location of every demon and he certainly doesn't order them to possess people. People have to provide an opening to possession.
God needed evil so much he created his own Adversary.
ok, I'm genuinely interested in why you think God "needed" evil. Also, Satan wasn't an adversary when God created him. It tells us that angels have freewill too. God knew that Satan would rebel of course so shouldn't the question be, "why was he created?"
'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.
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...........within my lifetime we've come within hours of nuclear holocaust and seen a century torn apart by wars....... you have little grasp of reality.
did it not occur to you that every Christian considering Calvinism/Arminianism considers this argument? The problem is step 3. God did not create a virtual world. Free will is not theoretical. The fact that God knows who will be saved does not impinge in the least on the free-will of those who will not. Why create a world in which the notion of free-will is merely academic? A case of "justice must be seen to be done". Presumably, were you extant in this scenario, you wouldn't be complaining that God only created people who were "for" him!
btw, how is this supposed to render Christianity "irrational"?
'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.
Irrelevant to the problem itself. Also, if Calvinists and Arminianists consider this argument, then it means that it is an objection worthy of consideration and study.
The existence of Free Will is hardly an open-and-shut case, but we are assuming that Free Will exists and God granted it to people. #3 is not problematic to Free Will at all. My free will should not depend on whether or not evil people exist, only on whether or not I have a choice over my OWN actions. Do you even understand what free will is?
And I never said it did.
...What on earth are you talking about?
How is any of this pertinent to my problem?
-sigh- It's showing how God could have created a world with Free Will, evil, and where everyone is saved. If God wants everyone to be saved, and we assume Evil and Free Will are necessary to achieve the greatest good (which I challenge with my Morality Dilemma), this world should not exist.
"The Chaplain had mastered, in a moment of divine intuition, the handy technique of protective rationalization and he was exhilarated by his discovery. It was miraculous. It was almost no trick at all, he saw, to turn vice into virtue and slander into truth, impotence into abstinence, arrogance into humility, plunder into philanthropy, thievery into honor, blasphemy into wisdom, brutality into patriotism, and sadism into justice. Anybody could do it; it required no brains at all. Just no Character."
"He...had gone down in flames...on the seventh day, while God was resting"
"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You should be taken outside and shot!"
My favorite argument along these lines would be to show a christian how they themselves make excuses.
For example, did everyone before christianity go to a hell? A typical christian response might be that they are in some kind of limbo, or went to heaven by default.
Did everyone who had never heard of Jesus after the fact go to a hell? Typical responses might be again they are in some kind of limbo or they went to heaven by default or Jesus actually did visit them and spread the word we just haven't heard about it and the bible forgot to mention it though this seems carpy.
In both of these scenarios hell is not really an option, if they did not know Jesus then how could they have known to stay away from a path leading to hell? That would not be fair. Jesus is so loving and wonderful that he would not have sent these people to hell right?
Does it say any of this in the bible or did someone just make it up? ..not that the bible is not made up lol.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
yes, of course it isn't a stupid point but whatever conclusion one came to, I don't see how it impinges on the existence or otherwise, of God.
You are also conflating those who don't opt for salvation with "evil people"! This is an whole other debate. Until you prove otherwise I will give you the benefit of the doubt! Regarding what I regard as "free will", I'm happy to go with your implied definition.
I didn't say it was problematic to free-will. It doesn't affect any rationale for God's existence however.
good......... that doesn't render the point redundant.
...What on earth are you talking about?
-sigh- everyone would freely "choose God" but have no choice but to choose God - how would anyone prove that free-will existed?
see above.
here's a crash course in theology.........nowhere does the Bible suggest that evil is necessary for anything. Also, the Bible makes it clear that people are born by the will of Man, NOT by the will of God, so although God knows who will choose him, he doesn't choose who will be born. Is God going to determine everything in this "free-will" world of yours?!
'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.
The Bible doesn't come out and say it, no. But it is replete with examples of God needing evil to make his plans work.
Examples:
1. The serpent in the Garden of Eden.
2. Job.
3. Judas Iscariot
4. Any opportunities for Jesus and or his disciples to cast out demons.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
you've been listening to too many Catholics!
you're into carps in a big way!
In both of these scenarios hell is not really an option, if they did not know Jesus then how could they have known to stay away from a path leading to hell?
Romans 4:3
What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Romans 4:2-4 (in Context)
'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.