Couldn't Atheism be considered a religion?
Posted on: October 27, 2010 - 11:07am
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Couldn't Atheism be considered a religion?
I mean, I kept reading theist opinions on atheism being a religion and I have to step on my pride and say that some of their arguments did make sense. I like to call it the belief of not believing, but I don't know how much sense does this make, either. -_-
Am I just a little confused?
"If God created man in his own image, how come I'm not invisible?" - David Powers
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Depends. How do you define religion?
The only way to get atheism to fit under religion is to define religion as, "Positive or negative belief or worship regarding a deity". You would literally have to be that broad. Once you get to that point, everyone is religious...but the word doesn't mean anything anymore...all you've said is, "Religion is being conscious".
Most normal definitions of religion are something like, 'System of belief in or worship of a deity'. Atheists don't believe in, or worship, a deity so we don't fall under any standard definition of religion.
Most people trying to shoe-horn atheism into religion are trying to say that if you are zealous in your belief then you are religious...but all that is saying is anyone with zealous belief is religious. Again, you've diluted the word religious to the point of being useless.
That, or they think that, "The truth of God is written on all of our hearts", which is just another way of saying all atheists are liars.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
.........there is no Santa Claus, or sanity clause. I have heard theists use that argument also that non-believers are simply another religion. But it is not possible. "to believe in NOT believing" has to be the ultimate oxymoron, it simply does not make sense.
First define religion: This from my Canadian Oxford Dictionary. 1] the belief in a superhuman controlling power, esp. in a personal god or gods entitled to obedience and worship. 2] the expression of this in worship. 3] a particular system of faith and worship. 4] life under monastic vows.
My beloved Canadian Oxford covers Atheist in even less words; 1] noun, disbelief in the existence of god or gods. from the Greek 'atheos' without god.
Religious people have this nasty habit of "when in doubt create a new religion" theists have no belief in atheisim so they wave their magic wand of illogic and go 'poof' a new religion and it shall be called atheisim.
My best answer to those of magical thinking is "Go get a Dictionary"!!!!
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Just a little
mellestad already gave a great answer, I will therefor rather ask a question: Which of the theists' arguments did make sense to you regarding atheism being a religion?
Does the fact that you've never slayed a dragon mean you're following the religion of not slaying dragons?
If you're following the "debate" than you've likely heard these popular sayings...
"Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby."
"Atheism is a religion like 'off' is a TV channel."
"Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color."
What was the most compelling theistic argument?
Atheists gather around a common cause? They have similar beliefs? They unite with each other? Those are typically the most compelling. Remind them that here are some other people that do that: Alcoholics, Teachers, Best Buy Employees at an employee meeting, Republicans, Democrats, members of PETA. All religions right? NOT.
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If it's a religion, I put in my resignation now and I will just say I believe in nothing at all. Religion to me is a brainwashing tool so no, I do not see atheism as a religion. I don't even like to to see the two words in the same sentence.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Not only that, but atheists often don't even have a common cause or beliefs. Even on this site, with some measure of focus, you have a distinct lack of cohesiveness. If you took a random sampling of atheists I doubt you would find they have much in common.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Religion requires some kind of belief in the supernatural. If Atheism is a religion then so are political views (since those are based on beliefs) as are views on raising children, beliefs on which authors are better, etc.
atheist religious books lately covering topics like paleontology, geology, biochemistry, neurology and anthropology. There were no exhortations to believe anything unprovable on pain of torment, no accusations of genetically derived evil.
No claims that an abstract noun exists just outside the universe and just wants us to love him. There were only some facts people have found out. If atheism is a religion then so is the study of everything and a shared interest in anything.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Atheism is the lack of belief in a god.
There are religions that do not have theistic beliefs and therefore could be considered atheistic religions, but this is not the same thing as atheism as atheism is ideologically independent of anything other than the lack of belief in a god.
There's a lot of baggage that is often associated with atheism that theists like to use to "religify"atheism, calling it a "worldview", suggesting it requires "faith" to be an atheist, suggesting it has religious tenets from atheistic philosophers, etc. etc. But like I said, there attaching things to atheism (that is the lack of beleif in a god) that have nothing to do with atheism per se. So to even suggest this is to make a category mistake....
“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”
Totally agree there, the only thing atheists have in common is that they dont believe in a god
NO, atheism is not a religion.
Theists want it to be a religion very badly so they can say we are in the same pot.
The very existence of an atheist is the "no" to their idea for bacon flavored ice cream. I hope I didn't delve too deeply with that analogy, if so here is another.
Your very existence is a denial of their reality, a broken cog in their unchanging wheel of nonsense.
Yes they will say it is a religion and to me it is their base way of bringing an atheist down to their own level because they can't deal with reality. The whole concept of "non-belief" is not something a true theist can even contemplate. Atheists on the other hand (I like to think anyway) can all see both sides of the fence, you can "imagine" a god but you have dismissed it as the man made superstitious control tool it is.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Exactly. It's like when Ray Comfort tries to equate trust in a history book to faith in the bible. He wants you to believe that both are faith claims, and if you have faith that George Washington existed than why don't you have faith that God came down to Earth as himself to sacrifice himself to himself so that others could escape the wrath of himself?
The worst they can come up with is to say:
"AHA You are just like me!"
NO.
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In a related point, those who claim "atheism is a religion" are making one of the many mistakes that the proponents of ID made in Kitzmiller v Dover. Attacking your opponent's claims is not the same as supporting your own.
Simply put, even if atheism were a religion, requiring every bit as much faith as Christianity or Islam or what have you, this would not imply that faith has any merit. All the arguments against the use of faith would still stand. Proving atheism to be a religion would mark atheists as hypocrites, but it wouldn't do anything to make faith a reasonable epistemological tool.
Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html
I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.
That is a good point Zaq. Often times, in debates, I have theists try to trap me with useless arguments like "If you are sure that your car is going to start when you get in it, then you must have faith in the car,". I always look at them like that is a totally useless point. I can SEE a car. I can change the oil in a car. I can touch a car. I put gasoline in a car. Is there any faith required before getting into the car ? Small portion, but how does that prove that God exists ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Atheism is a religion, its the religion of science and rational thinking. we like all religions have a set of universal rules that everyone must follow. they are known as the laws of physics. unlike religions though we are neutral, we do not promise hope salvation or threaaten with damnation. what we do offer is a life free of mental slavery and FEAR. fear and the fact that it gets stuffed down your throat since a very young (and naiive) age is the one reason religion flourishes. if people actually read the bible (i mean REALLY read it not just sit there and listen to one man's view on it) they would see all the violence done in the name of god all the hyppocricy and contradiction. never have I seen contradictions or hyppocricy in science rather the more broadly you look the more other facts seem to fit with your theory almost like a puzzle (for instance the cell theory started with just all living things are made of cells now we know that cells come from other cells NOT from god) also never have I seen violence and war committed in the name of science (unless you count animal testing and during past times human testing)
Are you saying that all atheists are thinking scientifically? What about those who aren't? Aren't they "real" atheists? Or is this question superfluous because it is only the irrational ones anyway who claim atheists to be necessarily rational?
NO.
There are plenty of atheists out there that don't understand science or try to. There are even more atheists who are very poor at thinking rationally and don't try.
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A theist believes in at least one god. An atheist believes in no gods.
A religion is the worship of at least one god and an interelated view of the divine origin of the universe replete with a narrative, a symbology, worship and a public set of behaviours. Religions relate morality to their belief in a supernatural origin of life and the existence of a higher power. Religions have preachers and followers, holy places and embrace a divine origin for life, the existence of an immortal soul, and the involvement of a deity in everyday life.
Patently, atheism, the belief in no gods when combined with the belief physicalism/scientific rationalism is the only path to actual knowledge does none of these things. Science is a way of thinking that lays out knowledge in a manner than can be tested. That's all it is. Claiming unbelief in god is a religious belief is a flat out false dichotomy.
Next time you theists are in an aircraft flying at 1000 kilometres an hour, ten kilometres up in the sky, why not look out the window and contemplate the reasons you're only happy for science to be true part of the time.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I don't think religions inherently worship at least one god, as I think there are religions that don't have gods. This does not mean that atheism is a religion, only that some religions are atheistic.
“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”
How do you define "god"?
You start - you're speaking as their advocate.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Well, to be fair he isn't a theist so I doubt he's advocating for anything beyond wanting to argue.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Is he taking the "however you define a god, it must be wrong" position? I figured if he wants to blast atheism he must hold the other position (at least for argument's sake).
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
He is an agnostic, and he does not think it is logical to make a positive statement of disbelief (At least that is the impression I get). I am sure he will elaborate.
I wish he would just make his point in his original posts instead of trying to trap people.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
A true agnostic? I've never met one of those.
It's rather refreshing to find someone who doesn't know anything for certain and is capable of saying so (with certainty).
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
He's not so bad when he tries to be constructive.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
A deity is by definition a being of supernatural attributes that is worshiped by a people - this is the standard understanding of religion. There is no way this can be applied to atheism. Atheism can only be regarded as a religion in a colloquial sense at best, e.g. "his golf is his religion", and this is not the same thing at all.
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"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." – Christopher Hitchens
conforms to the supernatural abrahamic version which defies any sensible definition. I'm happy for this generalised sense of an anthropomorphic supernatural force to apply to any other gods that might happen along.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
to some extent here, that Ubuntu is talking about something like Theravada Buddhism which is a variation of Buddhism in which no deities are worshipped, I started wondering about the definition of religion. I think of it as having a supernatural element and an actual god. A 'way of life' humanistic belief system replete with some homming and meditative staring into space with associated crossed leggedness seems really broad. Self help is probably a religion, along with relaxation techniques. Jedi is definitely a religion.
I'm prepared to refine my definition of religion but if it's just a way of life with contemplative moments then living itself is at risk of suggestive religious overtones. Religion to me is about a god and a god must be supernatural or else he's just an alien, a superhero, a revered historical human figure. Gods to me, the subjective me, are supernatural.
Ed: Welcome to the site, Tassman.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Then how do you define "supernatural"? What is the difference to "simply natural"?
*gg* Well played
But there are a lot of images of gods which are vastly different from the abrahamic version. So what about them? Aren't they "real" gods? If so, is someone who believes in one of them an atheist, too? Or do we have to apply a much broader definition of "god"? What would that definition be then?
Awww, it's soooo cute when irrational people desperately attempt to sort others into inadequate categories. Instead of, like, actually adressing their questions and arguments
Listen Athene, we're all open books here. Most members of the forum have talked about themselves too much. You on the other hand seem to be getting off on playing both sides of the atheist/theist fence. You mention that you are only concerned with the irrational vs rational, maybe you should start being concerned with the arrogant vs humble or the intellectually honest vs intellectually dishonest.
You've managed to make almost everyone here dislike you, and it's not because you're the superior human no matter how much you think it is (while railing against those types of people). You come across as a dishonest hypocrite.
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Yeah, because the irrational members of the atheist cult on this website are obsessed with sorting people into "friends" and "foes" and teaming up with the formers against the latters. Which is exactly the inferior cavemen-like mindset I have correctly identified. You cannot bear the thought of addressing my arguments instead of fighting and flaming? And you cannot bear leaving the arguments uncommented either, even if you have nothing rational to contribute? Then you have proven everything right that I criticized about you guys. Thanks for showing that once again, even though this wasn't necessary since the evidence is clear and readable to everyone anyway.
Dude, you're a troll. Can you leave now?
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I think the vast majority of gods have supernatural powers. If they bring luck, impact on the weather, supply fertility, ward off illness, offer divine love - whatever these deities do that is not possible in the realm of physicalism is supernatural. Even if they are the objects of prayer and reverence and seen as earthly allies they are being perceived as non-living creatures with the ability to impose their wills on the physical world. I think this applies equally to ancestor worship and the worship of saints.
I'm prepared to say that even basic essentialism - the application of anthropomorphic and animate characteristics to inanimate physical objects has a supernatural basis. I think essentialism is the bedrock of religion. That ability of the human mind to break physical rules and imagine alternative realities in which everyday objects are invested with living properties.
Throw a non supernatural deity at me and we can consider. I'm happy to modify my position.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
One of my favorite quotes is 'if atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby'.
I give as good as I get. Bring an argument and it will be addressed.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I think Daylight Saving Time might be a religion. The benefits seem to be mostly imagined and belief in them appears to be faith based.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft