Quote mining, and theists.

Brian37
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Quote mining, and theists.

I am opening this thread to your experiences to theists taking your quotes and or quotes from famous historical figures out of context.

I was inspired to start this thread after Bob played a clip of Dawkins talking about a theist he debated who took his quote out of context. I don't have the link, I am sure Bob can post it since he was the one who played it over Skype for me.

But to paraphrase what Dawkins was arguing goes simply like this.

And I have argued his about Jefferson's god too.

"If I had to have a god it would be more like Jefferson's god, who started everything and then stepped aside." BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT, that always gets cherry picked, because I follow it up with, "Even in this case I would still not find this generic god claim credible either"

What Dawkins was saying isn't that he believed or thought that the generic "god of nature" was credible either. He was saying it had less baggage than the specific superstition of Christianity.

The theist misses the point that Dawkins wasn't chosing either, because both are bad arguments, but one has less problems.

It would be like a car which slammed into a telephone poll and totaled(Christianity), vs a car with a dead battery(god of nature). In both cases the car is useless, and doesn't work. It is just that one useless car has less damage than the other one.

In both the cases of the generic vs the particular both are claiming some sort of cognitive cause. Both Dawkins in arguing his point, and I arguing about Jefferson's god, isn't that we are saying the generic is possible, merely that it has less problems, but the problems are still fatal as far as logic.

No matter how good of shape the car may be in, if it has no battery it wont run. The generic car(god) simply has less rust on it, but it runs just as well as the car slammed into the telephone poll.

When I make this type of argument against a god claim I like to make it clear and put it like this,

"If you put a gun to my head and forced me to chose a god claim, I could not go with a particular label and the closest I would chose would be a generic". Which IS NOT claiming that either work.

Other famous people quote mined are Einstein, Hawkins, Jefferson. Post your famous quote mines here.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


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OK, I will start this off

OK, I will start this off with one of my favorites:

 

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941

The miners always get that one wrong.  He is not making a positive god claim.

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

OK, I will start this off with one of my favorites:

 

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941

 

The miners always get that one wrong.  He is not making a positive god claim.

Agreed when you take into context EVERYTHING in all his writtings. But the idea is to not just put the quote by itself but also show the full context and WHY the theist wrongfully and even willfully use it out of context.

So what does Einstein mean with this quote? Post that as well.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


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How about this oldie but

How about this oldie but goodie?

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." - Charles Darwin

Yep, let's just forget about the paragraphs he wrote afterward where he explained how the eye did evolve according to his theory.

See http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part8.html

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

OK, I will start this off with one of my favorites:

 

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941

 

The miners always get that one wrong.  He is not making a positive god claim.

The quote mine would be, "Science without religion is lame" - Albert Einstein 

http://www.celebatheists.com/wiki/Albert_Einstein

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Brian37
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jcgadfly wrote:How about

jcgadfly wrote:

How about this oldie but goodie?

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." - Charles Darwin

Yep, let's just forget about the paragraphs he wrote afterward where he explained how the eye did evolve according to his theory.

See http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part8.html

You did it too, you silly.

May I request that when you post the quote mining, post first the out of context section of the quote, which you did, then break it up with whatever comment you want, then post the rest of the full context as well.

The links are fine too, but lets also post the full contexts of these quotes here.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


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Context of Darwin quote to

Context of Darwin quote to make Widdle Bri-Bri happy Smiling (don't wag the finger at me any more)

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of Spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei ["the voice of the people = the voice of God "], as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certain the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, should not be considered as subversive of the theory."

Counter-intuitive, yes. A theistic "gotcha"? Not even close.

Why do they use it? They assume that we are as foolish as they are.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Brian37
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jcgadfly wrote:Context of

jcgadfly wrote:

Context of Darwin quote to make Widdle Bri-Bri happy Smiling (don't wag the finger at me any more)

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of Spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei ["the voice of the people = the voice of God "], as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certain the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, should not be considered as subversive of the theory."

Counter-intuitive, yes. A theistic "gotcha"? Not even close.

Why do they use it? They assume that we are as foolish as they are.

Ok J, if you want to use my poems for your auditions let me make one thing clear. THERE IS ONLY ONE PERSON WHO GETS AWAY WITH CALLING ME "BRI" and that is Sapient, mainly because he can ban me, but more so that we have known each other for a long time.

Be warned, if you insist on calling me "Bri Bri", you'll have a world of finger wags coming at you!

Did Brian Sapient put you up to that? Story of my life, everyone picks on me. Even  my mom.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


jcgadfly
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Brian37 wrote:jcgadfly

Brian37 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Context of Darwin quote to make Widdle Bri-Bri happy Smiling (don't wag the finger at me any more)

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of Spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei ["the voice of the people = the voice of God "], as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certain the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, should not be considered as subversive of the theory."

Counter-intuitive, yes. A theistic "gotcha"? Not even close.

Why do they use it? They assume that we are as foolish as they are.

Ok J, if you want to use my poems for your auditions let me make one thing clear. THERE IS ONLY ONE PERSON WHO GETS AWAY WITH CALLING ME "BRI" and that is Sapient, mainly because he can ban me, but more so that we have known each other for a long time.

Be warned, if you insist on calling me "Bri Bri", you'll have a world of finger wags coming at you!

Did Brian Sapient put you up to that? Story of my life, everyone picks on me. Even  my mom.

I didn't know - I thought I came up with it on my own.

That's what I get for thinking I can be original.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Brian37
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jcgadfly wrote:Brian37

jcgadfly wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Context of Darwin quote to make Widdle Bri-Bri happy Smiling (don't wag the finger at me any more)

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of Spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei ["the voice of the people = the voice of God "], as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certain the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, should not be considered as subversive of the theory."

Counter-intuitive, yes. A theistic "gotcha"? Not even close.

Why do they use it? They assume that we are as foolish as they are.

Ok J, if you want to use my poems for your auditions let me make one thing clear. THERE IS ONLY ONE PERSON WHO GETS AWAY WITH CALLING ME "BRI" and that is Sapient, mainly because he can ban me, but more so that we have known each other for a long time.

Be warned, if you insist on calling me "Bri Bri", you'll have a world of finger wags coming at you!

Did Brian Sapient put you up to that? Story of my life, everyone picks on me. Even  my mom.

I didn't know - I thought I came up with it on my own.

That's what I get for thinking I can be original.

Actually, this inspired me to start yet another post. "Out of context" how your friends tease you.

But I still want people to post here with their favorite quote mines.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


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 Brian37 wrote:   Agreed

 

Brian37 wrote:

 

Agreed when you take into context EVERYTHING in all his writtings. But the idea is to not just put the quote by itself but also show the full context and WHY the theist wrongfully and even willfully use it out of context.

 

So what does Einstein mean with this quote? Post that as well.

 

OK, I did not know that you wanted this to be an essay contest. Since I am not the only one who missed that, I shall fail to shed a tear over the matter.

 

So let me get back to that quote:

 

science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

 

The fact is that, as with most quote mine jobs, this is ripped from it's appropriate context. In so doing, it is generally left to the reader to link to whatever context happens to fit the individual preconceptions. Used in this case, it seems to convey some idea that Einstein was “into religion” whatever that means.

 

One point, which is only worth mentioning in passing, is that Einstein was an ethnic Jew and therefore would have been unlikely to have been into some flavor of christianity.

 

Still, one really needs to have some awareness of the actual context in which the remark was made. If one considers his other writings on the subject, he was not even into a specific belief which arose from some ancient books.

 

Rather, when Einstein spoke of religion, he spoke in one of two contexts. On entry point into his thoughts comes from his outright rejection of the common concept of the god of the omni powers. Many times in his writings, he made observations such as 'An omnipotent god could not be a god capable of rendering judgment on the beings of his creations. To do so would be essentially the same as rendering judgment on his own actions'.

 

More to the point for the above quote is that he was speaking in the context of a belief in religion as something which arose from the nature of the universe. Fairly similar to the god outlined by Jefferson or Spinoza.

 

That considered, what Einstein spoke of was the much more general idea that there is a sense in which men may come to know the universe on many levels. However, to engage in such forms of inquiry, on must be imbued with the sense that such inquiry is worthwhile. If one has that sense of the spirit of inquiry, then one may ask all manner of questions.

 

For example, one can ask where Jupiter will be in three years and there are a set of fairly trivial equations that will provide an answer which is good enough. However, one may as easily ask if it is reasonable to attempt to predict the weather, a matter that then as now, there are no trivial equations for determining what will happen three days from now. In his view, what matters is not which god is important but rather that one is imbued with the idea that it is reasonable to ask such questions in the first place.

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