Would there still be an occupation if all Palestinians were liberal atheists?
Offline What would happen if Palestinians gave up religion (Islam in particular) and became atheists who seek a secular democracy that upholds science and reason above everything else? In fact, what if they became liberal enough that they would acknowledge a leader regardless of race, gender or religion? What if their culture then allowed for an atheist, Jew, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, etc....to be their president? And what if Israel continued to have a 30% atheist populace but a fervent fundamentalist minority (backed by American evangelicals) who continue to desire divinely motivated settlements in the West Bank? And what if those Jewish fundies continue to desire occupation and domniation of the enlightened Palestinians?
IMO the occupation would end very quickly. Israel which prides itself as being a bastion of democracy in the Middle East will then look at itself as an imperialist theocratic dictator facing international sanctions from every secular nation. Every sane Jew would stand shoulder to shoulder with their secular Palestinian allies. By leaving all other variables the same and replace relgious devotion with enlightened secularism amng the Palestinians, they would be free. Yes indeed they are oppressed by an occupier that subjugates and humiliates them, but the core of their misery is Islam. And as they continue to wallow with zeal in this misery, they do more to oppress and humiliate their own than the Israelis:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/16/world/europe/16blogger.html?_r=2&ref=todayspaper
If the Palestinains had an atheist Gandhi that showed them the path towards real enlightenment.............. But if in the end we're all hardwired to be ethnocentric, racist, xenophobic, tribal assholes who desire the Hutu/Tutsi divide then I concede that my above thesis is all crap. I would hope not.
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I am actually glad that you brought that up, because I was recently reading through a book called "The God Part of the Brain" by Mathew Alper.
The very question that you posed above was touched upon. That almost EVERYTHING was hardwiring and no choices exist. I am not sure that I agree, but I am no expert.
Now, there were a couple of other points in Alper's book that I found myself disagreeing with. When I searched around on the internet, I saw there were a couple of websites and authors that somewhat disagreed with his notions of evolution and found some of his conclusions to be in error. But was curious if any of the more modern scientists and writers differed with his premises. I have yet to really get into alot of the biological theories in other works as of yet, as this is a subject that I have only taken an interest in fairly recently. For a high school graduate, manual laborer, biker type dude that originally found Atheism because of an anti-religious stance, I only recently began to delve into the more serious questions of evolution and other answers that I feel can be found in science.
Anyway, I don't want to hijack your thread to start another one. So, in answer to your post, I would say that I agree with you. I would think that if the Palestinians were to adopt a more secular government and have an increase of Atheism among their population, I also think that this particular struggle would decrease or come to an end.
It may not happen immediately, due to nationalist feelings and such, but I do have a feeling that religion plays a major part in this entire thing.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
I think it would also require the more fundy jews to drop their 'promised land' and 'chosen people' ideas (not likely), or the rest of the population to be less concerned with upsetting them, because those ideas are very much seen by the 'settlers' as justifying their occupation of the contested territories. That is as much part of the problem as any Palestinian attitudes, especially at the level of the general population.
The groups leading the Palestinians are definitely a major part of the problem as well, not so much the beliefs of the population. Ideally a more secular population would reduce support for Hamas and other such groups, but a more secular party would need to form and grow to become a credible alternative before a real change could happen.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
the last thing the hardline israeli leaders want is for anything to change about the palestinian conflict. anything. that includes the palestinians becoming tolerant atheists (or tolerant anything, ftm), and that also includes a total victory over the palestinians. as long as the conflict exists, they are relevant. imperialism needs conflict the same way we need oxygen.
many leaders say they admire churchill, but very few want to go the way of churchill.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
I respectfully disagree, Mr. Dish.... I don't think the Jews give a shit who they've stolen the land from... The fact that it was from Palestinians only made it an easier PR 'sell"...and now that they are in, if the Palestinians held hands, cured malaria, and sang Kumbaya I don't think Israel would include anyone in their promise land...
But then again, pure speculation on my part.
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
Although Bob, Iwb, and Rich all took most of the wind of anything I could possibly say about this, I am curious as to what you mean by "liberal atheist"...
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
A liberal atheist is practically any of the atheists on this site who are committed to science and reason over superstition.
While it is important to remember the past, I don't think we should get into blaming descendants for the transgressions of prior generations. I certainly am not willing to give my property back to Native Americans.
The deed is done. I think it is fucked up that the Jews after World War Two, while rightfully hurting from their horrific, unjustified treatment, seem to forget the Christian revelation story where they (the Jews) are merely the limo driver who drives the Christians to the club, but are asked to stay in the limo. They are given a nation as a consolation prize but wont get into heaven. How nice of those thoughtful Christians.
Christians, "Thanks for the ride, here is your tip, now stay in the limo, our club is very selective about whom they let in".
This is an extremely insidious self fulfilling prophecy. Christians are merely using Jews as a stepping stone.
But, having said that. We cannot deal with this situation by dwelling in the past. The Jews are not going anywhere, and if weren't for the politics of the right wing Jews, I am quite sure they want peace. If I thought that convincing them to leave the crack infested neighborhood would work, I would do so.
I don't think it was very nice of Christians to offer Jews a house surrounded by nutcases out to kill them.
I have absolutly NO sympathy for any moron who thinks that blowing themselves up on a bus is going to solve problems. I can empathize with those in Palestine who want nothing but to go about their lives without fear of death. But the only way they can achieve that is to demand that their leaders are purged of their nuts. I don't see a solution until that happens.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
that's fine, brian, but i think if you delve into history you'll find that the original jewish settlers in palestine, dating back to the late 19th century, were way more into share and share alike than their descendants. one of the original zionists, theodor hertzl, envisioned the jewish state as a secular, humanist social state living side by side with the indigenous inhabitants. even the original israeli leaders immediately after wwii were not nearly as obnoxious as their successors a generation later. the point is, while americans have tried, in their embarrassingly awkward way, to express at least a modicum of regret for what our european ancestors did to the native americans 400 years ago, the israelis for the most part have only grown more overbearing and aggressive as time goes on. i dare say even david ben-gurion would have been offended by ariel sharon.
i do agree that what's done is done, and i completely support israel's right to exist. i'm just firmly against imperialism, israeli or otherwise.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Then it sounds like we are on the same page. However, if ever this gets resolved, it cannot involve either side thinking they can beat the other into submission. This ratcheting up of tit for tat I can remember back in the 70s and seems to have peaked in the 90s. I can only hope all this needless bloodshed is wearing thin on both sides . Unfortunately I think the "chosen people" motif is deeply entrenched and until that is separated from politics, this will continue.
I think you need to philosophically kill both their gods with reason and get them to see each other as the same species.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Yes. I believe we are on the same page.
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
So I gues I'm on half the page then. Setting aside the historical mistakes and barring the right wing in Israel, there is a huge chunk of the populace that strives for a liberal secular pluralistic democracy. Heck, there are gay pride parades in Israel. And because of freedom of speech, neo-Nazi skinheads exist in Israel!!!!! And I would argue the majority have no inner desire to dominate or humiliate their arab brethren. I'm sure they just want to move on with their lives and not be blamed for an unfair generation old land grab by their forebearers. They should not be forced to move away.
Now from the arab standpoint, I cannot agree that it all solely boils down to veangance over 1948. Black South Africans faced far worse under apartheid. When they achieved democracy, they did not pull an Idi Amin and boot out all the whites or force them into becoming second class citizens. Similarly, if the Palestinians became a liberal secular lot, I don't imagine they would act any differently than black South Africans. No doubt there needs to be change in the Israeli leadership. But there is the bigger onus of change among the Palestinians. They need to give up Islam (or at least radical Islam) and have the courage to embrace western values of secularism as a first step to ending their suffering.
The problem with your theory is that religion serves an opiate for living and a catalyst for a high birthrates. The Palestinians live in shit-holes yet the still have large families. Because their religion tells them to suffer all the pain in this world, wait for reward in the next. Rational atheism does not.
The religious strategy works, they are producing more children, hence more soldiers and martyrs for the cause. So as things stand now, remaining Muslim is a better survival strategy than being atheist for their race. Survival is the name of the game, part of that is waging war in a competitive world.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Granted I would concede that a significant portion of the Palestinian population need some survival meme as a barrier to their miserable lives. And maybe they cannot attain salvation via a purely atheist doctrine at this point. They can't become a Swedish society overnight and be happy as clams. But if they need a religion, why not say Buddhism? The Tibetans live in far worse shit-holes than the Palestinians as a result of the brutal Chinese occupation. So where the hell are the Tibetan suicide bombers? If they need a religious outlet for their suffering, why not Buddhism instead of Islam? At least Buddhism may be a step in the right direction towards an atheist society.
The whole thing is more complicated than religion. I seriously doubt it is realistically possible to sort out the sociological behavior of these groups and make blanket statements about anything. And realistically none of it is going to change anyway, especially on the Palestinian side, since they are locked into a cycle driving their society in a downward spiral. Honestly, if a Palestinian Gandhi showed up, he'd just be killed. The whole situation is fucked, I don't see any hope for anything beyond a continuation of the status quo unless Israel has a Gandhi show up...and even then I'm not sure if lasting, drastic, widespread social movement is possible in the Internet age. The average Palestinians best hope is probably...shit, I don't know. I was going to say if Israel was destroyed, but I don't see the Palestinians getting any real love in that case either and in the long run they would be just as displaced, only that type of conflict would likely see hundreds of millions dead.
My advice? Don't be born in Palestine.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.