That's exactly the kind of thing I'm most curious about. Obviously it seemed real at the time.

How did you reconcile it then? Or did you?

How do you reconcile it now?

Have you really tried to figure out what happened, or what must have happened, in order for you to sense something like that?

I simply can't relate.

I mean, the closet thing I can think of, is feeling a chill run down me, or getting goosebumps, or maybe hearing something go bump in the night, when I was a child, and thinking I felt a presence.

Background I suppose.

Well, at the time I was young, maybe...14?  I was at a stage where I wasn't thinking all that much about religion, it just wasn't a big part of my thought process.  Family was very religious though, and my whole upbringing was very religious.  At the time...honestly, I can't remember what I thought about it at the time.  Awkward, I think?  Uncomfortable?  Confused?  Relieved?  Guilty because evidence for a miraculous event should have made me more pious, but it didn't?  Now in hindsight I'm really having a hard time figuring out what my thought process was after the fact.  I assume I thought about it because it seems like something I would want to consider, right?  My memory isn't clear though.  The event is clear but after it just blends into the haze of my life.

How I reconcile it now is interesting, and I have spent a good amount of time thinking about it.

I was young.  My family had been through a serious of tragedies that left probably half my same-age relatives dead over the course of a couple years.  I had been to therapy because my parents were worried that I wasn't doing well in school (Not that such a thing was new mind you).  Some of the family stuff had involved suicides and murders and I think they were, as parents, worried in general since I was the same age as the other kids.  Makes sense, now as a parent if I was in the same place I'd be worried about my kid too.

So anyway, one day my dad has me get in the truck and we head into town.  We arrive at a church and we go stand at the front of an empty church, and maybe five other guys show up, one of whom I knew.  I think they were all pastor types.  So, they surround me, hands on my shoulders,  and start to pray to God to help protect me (I'm vague about the language used due to time).  I feel hands heat up, tears start rolling down my cheeks, they finish, we leave.  I don't remember discussing it with him, but that seems odd as well.

So, the crying bit is easy.  I'm a rather introverted bloke, I don't show much (Besides when I got married.  There's a video I don't need showing up on youtube).  I didn't have a single breakdown through this years long serious of tragedies, and bring confronted with it in such a way has fairly straightforward psychological impacts.  I get choked up at chick flicks, having some tears fall seems normal.

The hot hands, well, I doubt their hands actually got hot since there isn't a mechanism in the body for that.  Since I don't think these guys had any reason to try and trick me, I'm assuming their warm hands warmed up my shoulders and due to my emotional state my brain went a little loopy with the stimulus.  People think they've experienced far stranger things and I don't believe those claims because there isn't any corroborating evidence, so I don't have much reason to believe this event was actually hands overheating or the intercession of a non-material being either exciting my nerve endings or directly tampering with my brain.

Essentially, I understand that my sensory experience isn't reality, it is my brain interpreting reality.  Sometimes strange stuff happens and when it does you need to be prepared for it.  When I get deja-vu I don't think I'm in the Matrix.

I do wonder though how much of what I remember is accurate.  Having studied memory a bit I know I could be a long ways off from what really happened...I probably only really remember a few 'frames' of this experience and the rest of it gets made up on the fly every time I try to remember.

That isn't to say I've never had an issue with it.  This isn't the first time I've discussed it on this forum, even.  It brings up interesting points about why I didn't take an event like that as proof of deity and never really worry about it again.  Maybe I never really believed?  Maybe I just didn't want to believe?  Maybe I just ignored 'evidence' because I was lazy about theism and the moral rules?  Maybe this whole atheism thing is just a grand session of cognitive dissonance and Jesus had his hand on my shoulder that day.

My current reasoning seems more likely though, in that it has more explanatory power and internal consistency regarding the rest of reality as I perceive it.

Thanks.

I don't really want to comment or dissect it.

I just want to hear from others, if they have experiences that are similar. Because, other than the 'natural' experiences that I mentioned, I've never had anything like a 'supernatural' experience.

Heh, well if you feel the need feel free to make any comments.  I'm not particularly attached to the 14 year old boy I happen to share some atoms with.

I studied psych in college, and I can give 'textbook' explanations on these kinds of things, but, I'm simply curious as an individual, because it's so far removed from my personal experience, to believe so vividly that a supernatural experience is happening in real time, or the supernatural experience of feeling an invisible 'love' or whatever, of a god.

It's completely alien to me. Like how some kids have invisible 'friends'. I could never relate, or even imagine how that could be.

But, what I'd like to know is, how some people came to 'switch' from being 'believers', to atheists. I guess I'm wondering if there are any who very gradually lost their belief, or if anyone lost their belief on a more steep decline. And how they view themselves 'back then'.

One colleague of mine, in Texas, was born in a semi- religious home, but, converted to a hard core born again Christian when he was 16. He teaches bible study, and everytime he travels, the first thing he does, is look for a local church, when he arrives at his destination.

I've done business with him for years, and he knows that I'm an atheist, and knows all about my 'sex, drugs & rock n' roll' days during my teens and 20's. He never preaches to me. Nor does he ever lecture me. But, he used to chuckle with dating a lot of different women when I was single, and comments about how pre marital sex, is a big no-no with Christianity.

Once, I did corner him, and ask him straight, if he really, really believed in his heart, that I was going to be hell (or be punished) for the life I've led. He declined to answer me, because he didn't want it to affect our friendship, and he didn't want to offend me, but I finally got it out of him.

He said 'yes'. He really believed unless I asked for salvation, that I would get punished. I guess the reason he never tried to 'save me' was that he knew that I wasn't all that 'bad', so, I had plenty of time to eventually see the 'error of my ways' and 'look to the Lord'.

That was years ago, we've never talked about it since, although he will gently remind me that it's really uncomfortable for him when he hears me say 'Jesus eff'n Christ' when we're talking.

He's very vocal about gays and blacks though. He thinks very, very badly of them. Very badly. He openly antagonizes gays, in public. He'll go out of his way to confront a gay man with the 'It's Adam and Eve, not Adam an Steve' rhetoric.

And told me many stories of how many times he's done it, particularly when he was younger.

The Catholic Church that I was unfortunate enough to be brought up in really did not get into this type of emotional displays.

I think theirs works so well (probably because I grew up in it) due to all of the shrouded mysticism.

The architecture, the chanting sounds, the smoke and incense, all of that did provide me with an intense feeling of mystery and wonder at the time.

Of course, I was constantly told by my parents and other people, that the feelings of wonder and mysticism came from the fact that I was "closer" to god when I was in the church. In fact, a priest told me once, "This is as close as you will ever come to the presence of god upon this earth when you stand upon this altar and take communion".

I don't remember having anything really all of that mystical occur. I felt happiness to be there as a really young kid. I felt awed by the huge structures and the ceremony.

I don't think if I had not had all of the heavy indoctrination and all of the constant teachings to go with it, I would have really felt any sort of power to it.

I lay all intense religious emotions to simple group psychology and a need for belonging that people feel,when gathered together for a common reason.

The reason I know this is because I have experienced a similiar feeling,  at motorcycle rallies, with a bunch of like minded, wild, chaotic bikers. Intense tribalism type feelings. "I am hanging out with my people" kind of thing.

Same thing with concerts and such. For instance, I was at a Slayer concert one time, a group of kids walked by, waving at me intensely and yelling " Hell yeah man, Slayer fans, we don't have to say anything to each other, cause we KNOW, when we are amongst each other, we look at each other and we KNOW".

I have mentioned this book on quite a few other threads. Why God Won't Go Away by Newberg. It does a real good break down of how the brain works when it is in a group setting. It explains how ritualistic settings (especially with music, drumming, repeated chanting, etc) can really have a powerful effect on the mind. The limbic system in the brain blocks the parts that are involved in several thought processes and leaves the person with an intense feeling of connectedness and oneness. Not much different than the above mentioned motorcycle rallies. (Being on a motorcycle run, neck deep with other riders, all flying down the highway probably produce a similiar effect, made even more powerful by the intense concentration that is required when riding).

It points out the same parts of the brain are stimulated when Buddhist monks are meditating, when Islamic Sufi dancers are whirling around, when priests are performing the mass, when people are bowing down and praying, etc. etc.

A good breakdown of the brain it does provide..

But that is the only thing about the book that was worth picking up.

The authors then veer off into left field, theist propaganda.

They apologetically state that while all evidence suggests that the concept of god can not exist outside of the neural circuits, that does not mean that it does not exist. They THEN make this huge leap that people who meditate and pray live happier and fuller lives and cite a few studies, (studies that a few internet searches can dispute) and conclude that although there is no real evidence of a god outside of the human mind, it should be nurtured (I strongly oppose that statement).

But it did provide a whole lot of answers to me, about why uneducated people, who are unaware of the activites of brain chemistry, could wrongly misinterpret these intense feelings as being something spiritual. They probably attach these feelings with more importance since they believe that they are dealing with some sort of spiritual realm.

I have the direct opposite conclusion from that book. Delusions and ignorance are not things that I believe humans should nurture.

I guess my sincere hope for the future, would be that we will finally evolve past the notion for a god. It doesn't mean that humanity would be free of problems of course, but I think that it would be a giant step into the right direction.

Well, that's the trillion dollar question, isn't it?  I know my process was very gradual...it took years of doubt before I was able to confront and eliminate the last vestiges of my theism.

It's something I think about quite a bit though, the methodology and how it can be duplicated or 'weaponized'.  I don't see any particular pattern though.  Anecdotally atheists seem less likely to be conformists, but that is somewhat obvious, at least in America.

It was really a gradual process for me. Part of mine was solely motivated by what I interpreted to be a whole series of tragedies, one right after the other, that happened to me fairly young and religion did not provide any comfort nor solace for. In fact, the more religious people spoke to me almost angrily for voicing any doubts during this time, both family and friends. I was told everything from "God is testing me" to "Oh ye of little faith beware" to all sorts of other crap.

I did alot of drifting when I abandoned the religion of my youth. Fooled around with new age people that believed god was some sort of benevolent force that was filled with love for everyone all of the time, wasted time with people that were always hunting for supernatural stuff, flirted around with eastern religions for a while.

But underneath all of them, all that I personally ever found was more people like myself. People that had moved away from more organized religious backgrounds but still seemed to desperately need for there to be some sort of "ultimate intelligence" or some spirit in  order for people to live fuller lives.

I finally realized that I didn't believe in any of it any longer.

To be honest, when I first decided that god did not exist, I viewed life pretty pessimistically.

I had always loved to read, and happened to stumble across fiction writer Harlan Ellison. Who quite frequently refers to being an Atheist in many of his introductions.

This actually grabbed my attention. I had never really thought about what an Atheist would really think about, other than the strawmen arguments that theists had always given me (i.e. Atheists believe all happened by chance, Atheists believe in absolutely nothing, etc.).

I started looking at Atheist websites. Man, I was just blown away. Here were people that had all of the thoughts about god that I was having and also had extremely intelligent answers for everything.

Like I said, I have always loved to read, so I started picking up books by Dawkins,Stenger and others. It made so much sense.

I began to realize that all of the questions about life were not to be found in bibles, or in new age guru nonsense about spiritual beings having human experiences, but in the science books.

I could not get my hands upon enough scientific stuff. Here were hard core, realistic answers and not some sort of philosophical speculation.

I guess that is one of the reasons that I finally chose to become an out in the open, full blown Atheist everywhere I go. I remember what it was like to be on the fence, not wanting to let go of the god belief and not knowing where to turn. I mainly do it in the hope that anyone else can have some sort of exposure to the freedom of skepticism, not buying into naked assertions, and learning to think critically.

Like Mellestad's signature says : Everything makes more sense now that I have stopped believing.

The most liberating experience of my life was the freedom to put god on the shelf with all the other imaginary creatures of fantasy.

How to find personal purpose without objective purpose?  How to create a moral system without objective morality?  How to explain emotion and experience?  I'm sure there are others, but those three questions are *huge*.

Those are questions theism glosses over.  When you question your theism these issues hit you head on and you don't have the benefit of standing on the shoulders of secular philosophy and science because you are ignorant.  Worse, any exposure to those ideas was likely negative, and happened in your malleable childhood when you tend to internalize ideas without question.

Again, I have a lot of sympathy for theists.  I brought this up in another thread for a new user, but the religious meme is very, very advanced when it comes to inoculating against atheism, especially when applied to children.

Edit:  How to deal with death is another big one.  As a theist, you don't ever have to face that, not really.  So imagine, you're thinking all this God stuff might be bullshit, and suddenly you're hit with all these potentially terrifying issues.  A giant black wall falling towards you.  Lots of people are just going to cave to that pressure.