The "atheism does nothing good" fallacy & why it's a big deal!!!
Offline I know this is long, but I think you'll see why this is one of the most important issues we have in fighting religion. Worth the long read IMHO.
Where are the atheist hospitals, the soup kitchens, charities, social programs? What does atheism do to help anyone?
I'm so fucking sick of hearing that. My own dad (who is the most religiously confused man I've ever met with his I'm part Christian, part Buddhist, part deist, part BS weirdness) even busted that one out on me in a debate once.
IMO the fallacy here is obvious to anyone willing to see it. "Atheism" isn't nor ever has been an organized thing. Even now, at a time when more non-believers have banded together than ever before, we still represent a tiny percentage of non-believers. Of that small percentage that have started to get together to either discuss or take actions, we are still highly splintered and disorganized. So why, when someone doesn't believe in something would they name their hospital, or charity etc something to do with their non belief? The point is (at least up until now) when an Atheist opens up a hospital, it's given a business name. The chain of hospitals around here are called Sentara... nothing to do with religion OR lack thereof. Does an Atheist own it? IDK, and neither does anyone else. So how the hell do religious people know that Atheists aren't doing anything to help anyone? Yet it's a very widely held misconception. The real issue is we aren't claiming our deeds for our cause. The answer to the original question in this post is they're everywhere, but they may as well be invisible.
Several atheists give blood at a local drive. Then a church van shows up, and the church members give blood. Everyone thinks "oh look Christians came and donated blood, how good of them." So since the atheists didn't come together, and toot their own horn apparently that means we don't do anything.
I've come to realize, that in order to show society that secular people have been, and will continue to do good in every aspect of society, that we need to show it. I didn't used to think that that idea was attractive or necessary, but I've changed my mind. People believe what they can see. They can't see evolution, so it's hard for many of them to buy into. They can't see that non religious folks are more moral than religious folks only we don't go around saying "Look at me.... I'm doing something good because it will make me look good to my church and my god."
Why is this important? Religious people think that they are morally superior because they have a written set of morals (never mind, they are ridiculously easy to pervert into thinking any damn thing you want is moral.) They also see that religious charities and hospitals are out there doing good (and making money hand over fist while there at it, but people don't bother to see that part.) If they are going to believe that society will continue to function without religion I think they are going to have to be SHOWN!
Another great example of this is that the top 3 philanthropists of our time (Bill & Melinda Gates, Warren Buffet and George Soros) are atheist/agnostic. These are the top 3 biggest philanthropists in the US. And yet they don't trumpet their unbelief when they give out their Billions and Billions, so the public doesn't know.
The Christians in America are VERY good at getting ideas into the public consciousness, effectively hijacking words, and giving them underlying connotations. That's how they hold so much sway over the minds of the people. In the 50's Senator McCarthy vilified Communists, and manufactured the Red Scare. The fact that churches had already made the word atheist a dirty word didn't help when he characterized the Soviets as soulless atheists. If anyone wonders why we're such a hated group in America, it stems from that. The thinking back then was skewed by McCarthyism. He turned it into an extreme us versus them atmosphere. Us (good god fearing Christian folk, in our Christian nation) against them (scummy Commies with no morals that don't believe in anything.) Another great example of an innocent word they've taken and given connotations that make my skin crawl is "family" In many contexts it now carries with it an anti-abortion message as well as hatred of gays etc. You want an example on a smaller, more recent scale? 10 to 15 years ago, if you walk into a store and someone started proselytizing to you, it was highly unusual, and creepy even. I don't remember when it first happened to me but at some point I had a cashier at a grocery store say "have a blessed day" to me. I didn't appreciate it, no one had ever done that, and I thought she was a freak. Fast forward to now, and it's almost hard to go out without hearing that shit. Bottom line churches encourage people to say it more and more. Now for some it's the norm, it's acceptable to proselytize in that small way. I think it's BS, and I even give the occasional dirty look when someone says it. But unfortunately I think it's here to stay for a good while.
IF WE ARE TO SHED RELIGION IN THIS COUNTRY AND AROUND THE WORLD, WE HAVE TO UNDO THEIR HIJACKING OF POPULAR CULTURE. That means showing the world that Atheists aren't mindless unbelieving automotons easily capable of mass genocide and war while being incapable of helping those in need. Showing that non-religious people do more good than the divisive, profiting religions do, and that we are fully capable of having a moral society without religion.
So.... what do you guys think? Should we begin taking credit for what we do? I know good people are not used to asking for recognition for good deeds, that's not why they do them in the first place. So I think for some, all of the sudden to turn around and say, "look what I did as a non-religious person" can be a hard thing to do. I think it's become necessary, and high time we acted.
"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."
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This is a perfect example of "perception is reality" People do not perceive (or more likely they do not want to perceive) that we do anything good and that becomes their reality. They also perceive that any good deed is brought about by the love and compassion of their deity since a mere man is not capable of doing good without the aid of said deity therefore that too is their reality.
A big part of the issue is the way religious people choose to perceive the world. If anyone is helping anyone else then they are doing a christian or muslim or whatever thing. They do not see someone doing good for the sake of doing good. No matter if you tell them you are atheist or not you are doing a christin, muslim, etc. thing. So I really don't know if it is so much standing out there with a banner that bluntly states I am an atheist and I help people I think it is more a matter of altering their skewed perception of the world which is a far harder and more complicated thing.
I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.
You see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
There are atheist charities. Kind of hard to make a charity in the name of a reviled concept though, and until recently atheism was reviled by an uncombatable super majority.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
You can't set up a charity in the name of atheism. You can't derive good acts from atheism, you can't derive evil acts from atheism.
You can't do anything in the atheism because you can't derive anything from atheism.
Just because it doesn't make logical sense does not mean it is impossible and/or hasn't been done.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
That's a nonsensical statement. If what they mean is 'Atheists do no good' then they have to prove it. It's their burden.
They're there, but they're more interested in helping people in need than proselytizing non belief.
It separates church and state. Duhhh...
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
I know. I think at first it would have to be in the form of clinics, charities, drives, etc. named for famous atheists, or use non threatening secular terms like freethought, or humanist. I personally don't agree with everything humanism, but I think they have a kinder gentler perception than atheists. I could see the RDF champion the cause for a certain genetic disease. I could see an organization like Oklahoma Freethought do blood drives (I'm sure that kind of stuff is already happening,) or starting up a community center that deals with AA, NA and other support groups etc.
I think we need to look at what community services etc. that the church is typically the providing that people think secular agencies don't. Then start thinking of how secular groups can. Hell, it's an excuse for people to get off their ass and give back by providing humanitarian assistance to those in need. Not a bad thing to have a good excuse for. Like I said, if the religious think all that necessary good is going to disappear if religion were to go away.... they will never be ok of the idea of life, and society without religion. People are so closed minded, if they aren't shown something different most won't change. You can't just pay it lip service and expect everyone to see it.
It may be little progress at first, but in my eyes it has to become common if we are to gain ground. It sounds like a lot to do for a bunch of people on an internet forum, but it's a movement that could easily gain momentum if RDF, FFRF, scientists, etc. got involved, and some good people with deep pockets got involved.
"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."
"Atheism" doesn't have to do anything. Secular groups can and should. Richard Dawkins' foundation is already set up to fight for science and reason.... how would it be hard for them to champion stem cell research or publicly champion research for one of the more commonly known genetic diseases? Imagine if Dawkins used his foundation and his clout in the scientific community and pulled together the best scientists to attack, and eventually CURE BREAST CANCER under the banner of the RDF. Atheism can't start a blood drive or a food bank, but it's very possible for the RRS to do so (and yes I know why that's a bad example, but it's true.) Why can't the largest humanist organization start providing community services in their name?
What do the majority of non religious people believe? That the world would be better off without this religious brainwashing, wars, and all the other harm they do. But IF (as I contend) you can't get people to leave their dogma behind because the majority of them think the world will go to shit, how can we hope for religion and it's harms to go away?
"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."
I agree fully with the perception is reality part.
I disagree with your whole premise on the last part. Science has been chipping away at religious perception for centuries, and it's snowballing like never before thanks to mass media and the internet. 100 years ago it might have been fairly easy for the vast majority of people to believe in Noahs Arc, now there is WAY to much reality in people's face for that to be the case. Even Christians who claim to believe the Noah story quickly backpedal when you point out that the arc would have had to be the size of a football stadium etc. Plus if hypothetically the Humanists became a big provider of humanitarian aid through charity, getting publicity, and helping out in high profile disasters, people are going to have to notice. That thought pattern of some good deed being a christian thing will get disturbed, and eventually wiped away. For some people the only way to get so see reality is to put a heavy dose of it constantly in their face that they can't even ignore through their bible glasses.
"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."
As an aside and a movie I highly recomend, all be it old, is Citizen X.
It is based on a REAL Russian detective who was tracking a serial killer who was murdering young boys and girls. Now, while I can say the tactics were archaic and 100 years behind the precedence of our Constitution. He still wanted to catch child killers.
If he were evil then why would he do what humans have always done, why would he try to rectify a harm to society, especially kids?
But even in this case, their system DID provide for a time limit if you did not prove guilt. IN RUSSIA. During the Soviet Union.
In the end he caught the guy and was executed days later.
The point is, that if Jesus or Allah or Vishnu were required for morality, then why did the Soviet Union have police, or much less care if a child was raped and murdered?
Mind you, I never have or never will agree with what Stalin set up or what the USSR advocated politically. Just to say that labels seem to be used to create an ideology to override common morality as an excuse to maintain the power for the few.
This Soviet cop did what any decent human being would do even if we don't agree with politics or tactics. He went after a child killer.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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