Prostitution - the scourge
Offline I've had an eye-awakening experience this past week that has caused me to 180 degree turn on my previous opinions on prostitution.
Now of course any decent individual would be against any woman being a prostitute through force or because of a drug habit. Rightfully so.
But in all my dealings with my fellow atheists, we're pretty liberal on many views.
Gay marriage? Yes
Abortion? Yes, the option should 100 percent be available, at either really low cost if not free, and discreet. Birth control is, of course, a much more favorable option, but shit happens. Women should have all options and 100% free control of their reproduction. What's your face, that canadian guy that is on here, can't remember your name at the moment. The guy whose forum name starts with something that sounds like vagina, feel free to illogically disagree. Whatever.
Gays in the military? Fuck yeah. I was in the military for 6 years. And yeah, my ship kicked a couple people out during my time there because it was discovered that they were gay. Other guys on the ship, who we all knew they were gay but they happened to never be proven gay by some random incident, so they stayed. But they were so gay. It was blatant. Obvious beyond obvious. Did anyone, in any private comment or otherwise express having a problem with it? Fuck no. Not in 6 years did I encounter a single person that was upset that there was some obviously gay guy on the ship.
Fucking Evolution should be taught as the fact that it is and any movement to either prevent the teaching of our children that evolution is reality OR trying to teach them some retarded, religously motivated alternative to evolution should be taken even half assed seriously, should be squashed. Immediately and without a single tender emotion.
Drugs should be legalized and taxed. You can't legislate morality. The "war on drugs" has failed harder than prohibition in the US way back in the 1920's or whenever.
Now of course, because we are all liberal, non-religion believing individuals, then of course, we all believe that if a full grown woman who is not forced to or a drug addict and reduced to deciding to be a prostitute or an escort or whatever you want to call it, well that's fine. Why deal with those old abrahamic religions that are so stodgy about sexuality? Outdated morality, right?
That's a big fucking no.
This is something that we all need to grasp right now. Regardless of our previous thoughts. There IS NO SUCH THING as a woman that decides to sell sex for a living that is not in dire straits. Whether from childhood or adolescent abuse or some kind of coercion or pure desperation from drug use or starvation.
Not a single one.
Ok, maybe one chick. But she died in 1488 or 1543 or some shit (I'm just throwing out random years, no one specific in mind). Bitch is dead.
Prostitution should be strictly illegalized, the "johns" prosecuted without mercy and the "hookers" rushed into social services to address their needs.
Visit http://secretdiaryofadublincallgirl.wordpress.com/ Start at the bottom. Let the previous posts load when you scroll to the bottom occasionally. Start at the bottom of the post that began in this past january and work your way up. Check out some of her fellow "exited" ladies of the night or whatever you want to call it.
This shit is utter bullshit.
No more should we, if we have any shred of hope of considering our species progressive, or growing, or maturing, or being more humane in any manner, can we tolerate this. In any form.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
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I don't know, man. What about women who act in porn flicks ? Do you consider that the same thing ?
This is a preposterous load of shit, there are plenty of women who prefer sex work over whatever other shitty job they'd have to settle with. Like PDW mentioned, porn stars are a good example - the most popular ones get paid a very nice salary so they quite obviously aren't in dire straits, yet they choose to continue doing it.
EDIT: oh yeah, I'm definitely not reading multiple pages of some blog without even knowing what I'm supposed to find exactly. If there's a convincing argument about something in there you should be able to present a condensed version here.
Even granting your absurd unsubstantiated claims why would you imagine that a prohibition on prostitution could possibly be any more effective than the war on drugs?
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
If prostitution is the last resort of women in dire straits then won't you be hurting them more by arresting all the men who are trying to give them money?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Yeah, I'll summarize for your lazy ass. Because that's how important your learning of anything in life is to you. I mean hell, if it takes effort it's definetely not worth your fucking effort. Let me slip you a 30 word sypnosis while you're busy sucking down a McDonald's happy meal and texting on your phone on your way to work.
Cause your pussy ass is so intellectually lazy that you've learn big fucking jack shit unless you could learn it and understand it in 5 minutes.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
The ones I knew would rather get paid for doing easier work, but chose prostitution over the other options of work.
It was a shitty job at times, but better for them than the alternatives.
As mentioned, prohibition doesn't work.
Yeah, actually I agree. We're kind of beating our heads against the wall. We can't stamp it out. Ever.
Nor can we stamp out old dudes fucking little, tiny kids.
Like, they're everywhere.
But us liberal atheists don't agree on saying, "Hey, we should not illegalize child rape."
But we do say, "Shit, prostitution should be legal if it's on the up and up." Meaning the woman made a free, uncoerced, decision.
There's no such thing as a free uncoerced decision in being a whore.
Alright, there was a study back in 1978 about college kids. They took attractive people of both genders and had them walk up to students of opposite gender on campus and say, 1) Will you go on a date with me? 2) Will you come to my apartment tonight? OR 3) Will you have sex with me tonight.
On the date question: 56% of the females said yes. 50% of the guys said yes.
Going to the apartment: 16% of the females said yes. 65% of the guys said yes.
Sex: 0% of the females said yes. 75% of the guys said yes.
This experiment was repeated in '82, later in '88, wasn't published until '93.
Every time 100% of the women, when they were in a public, safe place, asked by an attractive male, said NO. A big fucking no.
So why the fuck, how the fuck, can any woman come to the conclusion of "Yeah, I'll fuck any disgusting or extremely female hating violent man on the planet, for any amout of money for an hour? Every fucking day. That's my job. Several guys a day."
Would you do that?
Any of you guys, would you say, hey bitches, any disgusting, grotesque chick out there, I'll bone you for $50 an hour. Cause that's just how I roll.
Now flip it.
Males are more aggressive. Guys are larger.
A 5'3" 125 lb girl in the presence of a 6' 200 lb male.
Cooperate or it's going to really ugly. You don't have the option of saying, "Wow, you're psycho, or holy fuck that really hurts, or nothing." If you fight, there's really, really good chance you're just going to make it worse.
Read the blog, come to your own conclusions, and then come back and discuss it with me. Please do. I want to discuss this with someone. But anything that causes you to experience PTSD is obviously not healthy.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Woah woah woah.
What about the brothels in Arizona or whatever the state is? They are very high payed, it is completely voluntary, they are pretty safe from STDs because of the thorough regulation.
From what I have seen women actually from those places say, it is basically something they like to do, in general. They are getting money for having sex, which one said is their favorite thing to do. Her words were something to the effect of "I have a job doing what I love".
Again, the issue of a porn star is similar. It (being a porn star, the average hooker is probably more likely to be driven to it by far) is generally consensual, and not always, or even often, just some last straw.
The average women is not going to go agree to 'go have sex' with a random stranger in public. No shit. What STDs might they have? What if they are a psycho? What if I don't want to have random sex?
Obviously the average street hooker is not as well off as those working at an Arizona(whatever) brothel, but, that is more of an argument for legalized and regulated prostitution than against it.
You really need to back up the assertion that NO women would voluntarily become some kind of prostitute (even a regulated brothel prostitute). That it is ALWAYS a last, desperate attempt to survive.
The dangers a prostitute faces now is precisely because it is illegal. There is little way for a women to be safe or protected in any way in the situation she is getting into.
Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker
Which is why in safe-controlled environments like Las Vegas, a lot of these scenarios that you are painting are not going to take place.
Plus, I resent the fact that you open up this post with what Atheist should be for and against.
There are Atheists Republicans, Democrats, Communists, Pro-Life, Pro-Choice, Pro-Gun and Anti gun laws.
Since when do you get to decide what Atheists are going to support and not support ?
Since when do you get to decide what's good for everyone else ?
I don't know any prostitutes, but I know plenty of strippers that are paying their way through college and enjoy it.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
EXACTLY.
If anything it only makes the problem worse.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Actually Hamby[who else?] posted a study that showed that most whores, I mean prostitutes choose to be whores, or escort consultants.
I'll try to find it.
There is absolutely no comparison between child rape and prostitution. One of the largest problems with prostitution is that the women are not protected by the law and they are raped, they are abused and they can't go to the police for protection or retribution and men who are apt to do that type of thing know it. You probably are not close to a legal brothel, but go into a strip club and start getting touchy even when the dancers tell you to stop, want to know what will happen? Two or three really big, itching for a fight dudes are going to pound on you for a bit and toss your ass into the street. The same thing will happen if you try anything unwelcome at the brothels in Nevada. There is absolutely no comparison between how a legal prostitute in a brothel designed to protect the transaction and an illegal street prostitute who has nowhere to turn and no one to help her if she gets in trouble.
Well obviously they will say no if you ask for it for free. Ask the same question offering $500 and you will get more takers, is that coercion?
Because there is really good money in it, sometimes people do things they don't necessarily like to make money and prostitution can bring in a lot more money than most people are capable of. Why would anyone in their right mind want to pump other peoples shit for a living? Why would anyone gut fish all day everyday? Who the fuck would be willing to work on a hog farm where even walking by will make you smell like pig shit even after you shower?
I wouldn't, but there are a great many things I wouldn't do. Given the choice between being a gay prostitute and getting my ass fucked every day or working on a hog farm, I would probably go with the prostitution.
Nah, $50 an hour isn't nearly enough.
Which is precisely why it should be legalized to protect the prostitutes. Yeah, you have a blog of a street hooker in a country where organized prostitution is illegal. That is the situation that exists when it is illegal and I agree it sucks. I fail to see how supporting keeping it illegal does anything to help people like her, on the contrary, it keeps them on the fringes of society where they cannot get help should they need/want it. In an ideal world a prostitute should be in a safe environment with cameras and a couple of big burly guys who will pound the shit out of anyone who gets out of hand. Instead, you have girls meeting guys who don't even go through STD checks anonymously in hotels/motels where no one will do shit if she screams and if she goes to the police afterwards she will be thrown in jail for a few days.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
"This is a preposterous load of shit"
Much like everything Watcher, the irrational bigot, says.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
http://livinglifewithoutanet.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/prostitution-isnt-just-about-desperation-anymore/
Just an example to this:
I used to date a German girl, who revealed to me that her sister was a prostitute. She worked in a German licensed brothel. These are legal places where the girls are safe, and they get to choose whether to accept the guy who wants to pay them. The sister of my girlfriend was an intelligent, educated girl from a balanced family who had worked office jobs in the past, but had made the conscious decision to become a prostitute. She loved her job. She actually started a relationship with one of her clients - they got married and had a kid together. She stopped being a hooker in lieu of family life.
However, after a while, she got bored of being a live-in mother, and wanted to get out and work again. She took some part time jobs, but was uninterested by them. After a while she went back to the Brothel because she enjoyed it more.
Now you can say this is a pretty weird, alternative family (Which it definitely is), but you can't say this girl was coerced into prostitution.. She liked it so much she went back to it after settling down and having a family. Licensed, safe brothels provide a legitimate job for women who want to use their body to derive a good income. They also provide a refuge for lonely guys to feel a bit of a connection to another human. You may be surprised how many men go to brothels just to talk and feel like someone is listening to them. They let people live out their fantasies, and they allow men to have sex, when they want, no strings attached, which some do.
Of course there needs to be a separation between street-walking crack-whores living in danger, and safe, legalised brothels. There also need to be a separation between the average guy who wants to pay for sex, and a guy who gets his rocks off beating up women. These are two entirely separate things. But to tar with one brush both in the same sentence is naive.
I know a couple of bouncers that have said several men, thinking because they are in a strip club, automatically grants them the license to be obnoxious and crude to the dancers. Quite the opposite. Act like an asshole in a strip club and you will get tossed into the street ( probably club patrons will help doing the tossing because crude assholes are messing everything up for everyone else).
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
That's because of the sexist society that we live in.
A guy claims that he has slept with 100 girls ( and he is probably lying) he'll be called a "player" a "stud" and a "ladies man"
A woman claims to have slept with 100 men and self-righteous men and women will brand her a "slut" and a "whore".
Make no mistake, women love sex as much as us guys do. They just have to protect their reputations in a double standard society.
I applaud the strippers and the prostitutes for not letting stupid cultural memes and theist garbage from holding them back from demonstrating their sexuality.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Even at my hormonal peak I was never turned on by topless dancers. I only went to topless clubs because I was hanging out with my friends. I was just bored. I got more turned on by the nude female models in my drawing classes.
Actually I have no problem calling men whores or horndogs
I wonder if Watcher is coming back to this thread ?
Which you should be able to do so. I was merely pointing out some of the double standards that I have seen in everyday behavior. I wasn't condoning it.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
To be honest, I am pretty baffled by this out of nowhere rant.
All of sudden, out of nowhere we get " My fellow Atheists. We are all for gay marriage, ending the war on drugs, and pro-choice. But we MUST STOP supporting prostitution !"
What is up with all of that ?
Besides, since where is it written what Atheists are for/against or should be for/against ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Double Post
Exactly. All atheism is at minimum is lack of belief in god(s). That is all it is. There are subdivisions of atheism like weak/strong atheism and etc.
Atheism is only talking about god claims, and there is no guarantee atheists will agree on ANYTHING else, as this site often shows.
It seemed to me that Watcher just freaked out while getting a few bad stories and decided the whole thing was horrific and didn't really, uh, research it. Street prostitution is dangerous and probably pretty messed up alot of the time, but that is not the only kind of prostitution there is. Banning it only does MORE damage just as banning abortion does more damage.
Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker
Any evidence? I think it's more that it's easy money. They could all clean hotel rooms or some such labor to get by. But why work hard for 2 days for what you could make it on your back for 30 minutes? Some want to earn money for college while they can, since they can't do it as they get older. Some just want nice things, some want drugs, some want to rebel against parents and religion. Some do like sex and work at what they enjoy.
What about the argument that all sex where the man is expected to provide a form of prostitution? Why isn't marriage just prostitution with an exclusive client? Do women ever have sex with a homeless guy with nothing going for him? So isn't all sex the exchange of something the man wants for something the women wants?
Aren't all jobs the exchange of one's body and mind for a paycheck to avoid dire straits? Why is it necessarily worse if it involves the genitals?
If you want to avoid the pain caused by poverty, why not support measures to eliminate poverty like mandatory birth control and education reform?
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Just like with prohibition, a lot of the problems are caused by the activity being illegal. During alcohol prohibition, making and distributing liquor was pretty dangerous. It became like any other business once it was legal. We don't see many reports of problems from Nevada brothels because they have rules of road and badass sheriffs to enforce them.
The real reason that prostitution is illegal are jealous wives that don't want it to be too easy for their husband to cheat and spend money on other women. Eliminate the competition and have a monopoly.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
...........I had the same strong emotion has Watcher. WHY??? Because like Watcher I have daughter(s) [Me 2; Watcher at least 1] and has I was minding my own buisness, whilest walking down a street a reasonably attractive young female walked up and asked me if I'd like a blow job for $50.....I wanted to belt her { I don't know why THEN vs Other times I was propt'ed}. Maybe it suddenly struck me that she had a father and what would Daddy think. Fatherhood does strange things to ones mind, [any fathers out there who can elaborate?] I'm older and wiser now and I do not use prostitutes, ever, being happily married for 24 years helps { I know I'm happily married because my wife told me I was}. It's called the worlds "oldest profession" for a reason (actually farming is): sorry Watcher I don"t have any easy solution to what you and I consider 'abhorent!' ; I wish I did. My oldest daughter is a High School teacher and my baby is middle management in the Ontario Ministry of health. I'm sure Watcher's daughter(s) will find respectable carears as well; but if any of you use a prostitute remember she has a father; somewhere; and what would you think if you were the father? Or mother?
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Good point Jefferick
'What did you do at work today sweetheart?"
"I had 5 guys ejaculate on my face how about you?"
You have a point to that, but children often do things that are seen as abhorrent in the eyes of their parents. My mother has completely disowned me and refuses anything to do with me because I am an Atheist, as does much of my family.
Whether you like prostitution or not, making it illegal is simply not going to make it go away.
I am not arguing against the point your making, but I am arguing that emotional appeals are not a logical reason to mandate into law how people are supposed to live their lives. Even if there are no laws passed, there is no reason into trying to shame people out of doing what they will.
I can't tell you how many guilt trips people put upon me for failing to be a good Catholic member of the family.
I recently had an elderly member send me a letter that stated : " Just think of what kind of human being that you are, allowing one of your elderly family members to die knowing that you have chosen to turn your back on god." Now, how do you think that they made me feel ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
DP
Lots of people look at prostitutes disapprovingly but none of them have given any reason why the rest of us who don't should, so who really cares about what someone's parents might think?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
If I had a daughter who was a prostitute I'd propably congratulate her for choosing a profession where she makes people happy. Then again I'm batshit crazy by most people's standards.
It's the first thing that was offered in trade. The start of the economy.
Where is the evidence that a woman is necessarily harmed? In the modern world unwanted pregnancies and vererial diseases are easliy avoided. Why not view it as the prostitutes are using the johns?
Why isn't daddy taking care of her? Why did they bring a child into the world if they couldn't take care of her and she might end up giving BJs for $50?
What if Bill Gates offered you daughters $1,000,000,000 for a BJ, so they would be set for life. Would you feel any differently? I suspect most women would be whores and most parents would approve. If it's only $50 they don't.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
I'd do it for the right price myself and I don't care what my mother or father thinks, so if it's ok for me to do it, it's ok for any adult.
I don't have children, but if I did, I'd strongly object to them getting paid to work in some filthy job, such as a religious apologist for $50 an hour.
I'd still allow them to though. It's their life.
Amen to that.
The worst whores are women that use sex to make men 'believe' in their religion. Their pastors are their pimps.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
I have often wondered about places like Christian mingles.com. Shouldn't they just pray for a date and get one ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
God is all powerful, all knowing, all loving, but he needs money. He just can't seem to manage money. GC
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
Speaking of which, doesn't everyone prostitute themselves for money to some degree ?
I mean, my boss sometimes has me do some of the dumbest shit that takes two hours to get done what could be done in ten minutes. What do I do ? I do it his way so I can continue to draw my paycheck.
When the alarm clock goes off in the morning, I don't hit the floor and say " Man, there's nothing I'd rather do than work in a building without air conditioning and be outside in the hot sun on the truck lots, getting all covered with filth and dust !" I do it for money.
If another warehouse/factory or construction job comes along and offers me more money, I am not going to say " No thanks, I have loyalty to these assholes." I am going to go to where the cash is.
So in essence, I pretty much whore myself out everyday. I just don't do it through sex.
When I was hammering tiles onto roofs for a few years every day, with some of the craziest people that you can imagine, I wasn't hauling bundles of shingles up a ladder that weighed more than I do, only to feel my skin cook on a roof, surrounded by asshole foreman for fun. I was doing it for money.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VnwL4-Ghn0
I don't really agree with all the song, but the title is right.
By the way, ex-Min is forgiven for once being a fallen man.
Apparently God needs to pimp out his ladies as a means of support, he just can't handle money. Pastors and pimps, the two groups of men that use fear and false promises to control women's sexuality for their own gain.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
True enough. On a serious note, I wonder how many idealistic, naive, young people ( girl and altar boy alike) have been taken advantage of by priests and pastors ?
At least with legalized prostitution, the woman is grown, knows what she is doing and getting paid handsomely for it. With no illusions.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno