Actually, I found quite a bit of meaning after ditching theism.

When I was a theist, I thought god was constantly looking over my shoulder, my life was to please him. I was worried that something I did displeased him. But then I realized he was imaginary, so now I can live life for myself and other humans. To make my and their one life worth having.

If you could only spend one night at an amusement park, and never go back or go to any other amusement park, wouldn't you want to make the most out of it?

The question is not whether you have morals, but to what end? If you want to make the most out of life, why stop with limits you set for yourself? If you exist just for the enjoyment of existing, why limit yourself in anyway at all? what is the reward for those limits? It will all be forgotten and meaningless in a few thousand years. Who cares about a community that will last less than a blink of an eye in the cosmic timeline and have zero impact on anything in the long-term? My question is not why do you personally have morals, it is what is the point in any morals at all without justice or reward in the afterlife? Without an afterlife, you are free to pursue any vice without fear of consequence. Even the justice mankind deals out is so temporary it is certainly nothing to fear for a creature without a soul or spirit.

btw, as a christian I try hard to hold myself to a high standard of morals, but if I do mess up I know from the bible that God is quick to forgive and slow to anger. So I never worry about disappointing him. The bible says nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. (i am paraphrasing). That includes denying him or even hating him, like Paul did for years. I have morals because I have a loving God that has given me an abundance of joy and peace in my life, and although I do not feel any need to earn his love, I certainly intend to live my life as an example of his love. If you ever tried to earn his love with your morals, that was your failing right there, you were trying to purchase something he hands out freely.

My life doesn't have a point other than whatever I decide it is at that moment in time. Right now my point is to have a beer and answer your questions because I am sick of sweating outside.

Because no one has seriously suggested passing a law requiring people to study at Hogwarts, however, Christians tend to push a wide range of laws based on their fictitious beliefs. 

I don't. I always find myself torn by skilled con-artists, I can't help but have respect for the skill they have to pull off a great con but I do have to wonder how they sleep at night.  I do have a rather low opinion of them because I prefer to deal with people who are honest over those who are not, but I also have a low opinion of the dupes who send them money. 

I don't care until it causes problems in my life or the life of someone I care about. Is there a reason why I should care?

On the contrary, the present and our memories are all we have and hence, quite valuable. The fact that they will one day cease to exist for us makes it all the more important to enjoy them now. I always thought that if you clung to the hope of a paradise in the future, you are more likely to miss out on the greatness of life right now.

Because the woman cares, and I as a person who cares about women cares. The man very well might feel good about it, maybe even rationalize it as moral in his head, maybe by say finding a bible verse that supports it. So what? That doesn't change that if he continues to do so he faces the real risk of getting a new hole in his head or facing punishment by a society that has decided that getting along together without rape is better than a society that tolerates it. 

I'm the guy who puts a bullet in his head (probably not actually me anymore, but some brave soldier sent out to kill the SOB) It is simply a question of how to organize society. Fortunately, most people agree that a society that does not allow mass murders to run about is more agreeable to live in than one that does. 

I don't really care if you say it is wrong. When you pass a law against it I have a problem. If you can demonstrate that somehow, some person out there being gay causes you real harm I might reconsider my position, but if all you have is "I think it is immoral" that isn't enough for me to support a law. But you are free to believe whatever you want is immoral, I really don't care. 

Are you saying you would murder someone if you didn't believe in god? I have murdered, raped, pillaged, stolen and abused everyone I want to. I have zero desire to do these things. I do enjoy to drink, gamble and have sex with women I am not married to, which I am told by many such as you is immoral. So I guess I am not driven to do "right", I do what I think is best for me.

Because the people have a tendency to shoot back. A society that allows people to murder one another inevitably leads to widespread violence which is undesirable for most people as it has negative economic, psychological and physical effects. At several times in history one group of people has been abused by another, I think we can say with a significant amount of certainty that when such abuse ends and the groups work together instead of fight that everyone involved lives a higher quality of life. I enjoy living a high quality of life and don't particularly care to live under constant threat, so having a court system to resolve disputes is much preferable to killing each other and having a basic agreement of 'I won't kill you if you won't kill me" is the foundation of any good social contract.

There are several people I would have no moral qualms with having killed, for example, the crazy who shot all those people in the movie theater, I wouldn't have condemned one of the police officers for shooting him execution style in the parking lot. I certainly wouldn't call the cop immoral. But, in the interest of protecting the innocent it is best to have a legal system where even the scummiest get certain rights- it is a question of having effective law that doesn't overreach, not a question of morality.  

The rock will break your hand. 

I don't call violence and anger wrong. You can sit around being an angry bitter person punching rocks all day long. The only time I am concerned is when you perform an action that directly harms others. In general, I don't sit around calling people moral/immoral I don't see a lot of relevance in the terms. My sole concern is how you interact with others and how that might effect my interests.

Humans have as much meaning as you decide and that is completely your preference. Perhaps you find life more enjoyable by finding a lot of meaning in human relationships and being very social, joining clubs, volunteering, having lots of friends, whatever. Maybe you don't particularly like humans and choose to live far out in the country in a cabin with your rocks to talk to or perhaps cats or dogs. Some people put a lot of meaning in their pets, others in humans, many a combination of the two. So what? The purpose of your life is whatever you choose it to be, whatever makes you happy so that at the end of your life you can look back and say "Hey, I lived a great life wish I could do it again". How sad is it to ignore whatever pleasures you might want simply because some ancient book said you should?  

What is the point of doing so if you think that eternity comes after this life? 

I checked, I could only find one story in the Bible that mentions rape, the rapist was convinced to circumcise himself and he and his entire family were killed. You say you have a low opinion of a scam artist and yet you are perfectly ok with planting little falsities in your comments? Your either a hypocrite or you did not even bother to check before accusing the bible of supporting rape, which makes you entirely unreliable.

More importantly, you all are aware that I mentioned rape and scamming old ladies as analogies right? I was using them as examples because they are things that I have reason to hate, you just choose to hate them because of a weak stomach. How stupid would you have to be to think I was supporting these thing? These things make you uncomfortable so you call them evil, or bad, or immoral. If this life is all there is, then there can be no such thing as right or wrong. Its all just actions performed by insignificant beings. Pain and suffering only describe two of many possible feelings you can get from the actions, they are simple cause and effect and nothing more. No one has the authority to tell a rapist he is wrong.

You say you would put a bullet in the head of that kind of man if you could, why? He just did what made his short time here more enjoyable, who are you to tell him he is wrong? Where did you get the authority to dictate his actions? You didn't, you just made it up because you did not feel comfortable while that action was being performed, but in your reality, the man was well within his rights, because there is no authority higher than a human, like him.

Who is the woman to tell him he is wrong? She is just an animal that can talk, she has no spirit or soul. There is nothing about her that transcends the physical world. If you all are right, then humans are no different than animals in any way. You think having emotions sets you apart from them? Ants never sleep, they are the only animal that never sleeps, plenty of animals feel some semblance of emotion, but only ants stay awake their entire lives. That means that in the physical world, ants are far more unique than a human. Yet few people would think twice about crushing an ant to death, why is that? What makes a human more important? We are not the only flying mammals like bats, we are not even the only creative animals, I saw a horse painting a picture on T.V. just the other day. Sorry but if you are right and there is nothing after this life, then we are just another animal, and we have convinced are selves that some interaction with other animals are right, and some are wrong.

If I hit a random person in the head, then all I did was move my arm in a certain direction and made contact with another piece of matter, why should I care what his nerves tell his brain about my actions? Well I do care because I am made in the image of my creator, and he cares. He decided what is moral and immoral and gives us the choice to follow his morality or not. But to him a sin is a sin, The reason actions are immoral is because they are disobedience to the ultimate authority. Murder and stealing are equally sinful, because its not the physical action that is sinful, its the disobedience. Lucky for us he is quick to forgive, if you don't believe that, you should study the Bible more closely, it is all about forgiveness. In fact it ends with God finding a way to offer forgiveness out freely to everyone no matter what their sin. He actually gave his only son to die so that we could spend eternity with him. What is the downside of this view? I have no idea, you can live your life freely, with peace and joy, then be rewarded with eternity. It explains morality, existence, and gives us something to look forward to after we finish our lives here. You all can't even seem to understand the question, let alone give me an answer that explains the purpose of your "morality" or whatever you want to call it.

NO! I do not support rape or scam artists or any other evil act. I actually serve in the U.S. army to fight against just that kind of thing, so please don't accuse me of promoting those things just because I used them for examples.

It is a christian fantasy to think an atheist feels a need to run out and "sin". Maybe they are just jealous of such freedom. Mystery revealed...Look we aren't that way at all. Frankly it just is too taxing. A christian gets all bent out of shape because he has a lustful thought and must resist the flesh asking for forgiveness and beg Jesus to remove such thoughts. I look at a hot woman and think wow what a great ass and smile. I enjoy the pleasure as is and don't muck it up by thinking I am bad. Evolution built me this way. And also it gave me women relatives, mom, sisters, daughters and I have respect and empathy for them. I don't want to violate their space or make them uncomfortable. By my brain is free to think what it wants. Christ was about mind control-even if you think a thought you have already committed. Bull-Hockey. He was marketing and needed to convince you were bad so he could sell you his goods.

How do I know this? Born and raised christian. Former minister. I get what it is like. I deeply feared becoming a non-christian believing the lies that I would become truly evil w/o Jesus. You know the lies you have been taught. Didn't happen. I am a better person today, open and honest. I really don't care what happens after I die, but I see no reason to tear down or rip up. It is simply too exhausting and I want the world to go on and be a good place for others. Sharing is a trait that is worthy and I believe humans in the past who did that were the ones who lived long enough to have kids and passed that gene on to me.

In the bible

So a biblical law is if a guy rapes a woman who is also a virgin he must pay the woman's father about $325 US dollars and he must marry her and live with her forever. Explain how this doesn't support rape, even if in a back handed way.

The bible is not as moral as you might think.

## edit - Beyond Saving did not say there was a bible text. He said say if someone found one. You didn't interpret what he said correctly. 

Your response was what I was reacting to, not to support something Beyond Saving wasn't even saying.

Christian morals - don't kill unless it is in self-defense or national defense then kill all you want.  Mind you, I don't personally object to killing in those circumstances, but the bible doesn't mention them.  And know plenty of christians who are will to say that isn't killing.  Plenty of other examples of lousy christian morals, and I'll list some more if you insist.

My sister went through a painful period.  Her husband of 29 years slept with another woman in my sister's own house.  Then he divorced her and married the other woman.  They are Jehovah Witness and her husband was an "elder" in the church.  Well, he was tossed out until he came back, said he was sorry, repentant, asked god/s/dess for forgiveness, and they took him back as an "elder."  Which is what would have driven me from the church (my sister still goes as she is slow on the uptake).  I mean, here is this jerk who only whined to his imaginary friend and he was back in where he started.  My sister was left out in the cold - no compensation, no recompense, no apology to her.  A simple apology to my sister for her pain and sorrow was not required, after all, she was only a woman and her feelings don't count.  Maybe your church and/or religion is not that stupid, but I wouldn't bet on it.

If you screw someone's life up, you should be required to fix what you messed up.  But in christianity, all you have to do is ask the big guy for forgiveness and off you go.  Rob a store and shot the clerk dead?  Ask for forgiveness and you can go to heaven, no need to help the family you devastated. 

As for my morals, I'm closely aligned with Epicurus.  Live in moderation to avoid the most pain.  Because both ascetism and excess are painful.  Killing other people, stealing from other people, hurting other people and so on will eventually cause you pain.  Gluttony, alcoholism, addictions and so on will also eventually cause pain.  So stop already, and live a gentle life, full of good things but not too full.

There are several things that are weak about your response...

1.  Biblical law was derived from society that had constructed understandings/rules/laws before the bible was written.

2. Though shalt not kill is in other holy books as well.  Does that mean those are true?

3. Read Leviticus 15:29.  That's another law in the bible, and we don't follow it.  There are hundreds of laws in the bible that our society laughs at.  As I said, out laws are NOT based on biblical law.  

Biblical laws are based on our laws.

It's rather ironic that that you should mention humanity.  Our values are humanistic, we dedicate ourselves to our fellow humans because subjectively, there is no higher moral frame of reference.  

So put very simply, what is the point in trying to maintain any resemblance of humanity if your have the morals of an ant drone?  What is humanistic about blindly following rules without thinking for yourself?  Not to mention that you're following said rules based on false and contradicting information...

There are many text that indicated you can fall from grace.

http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/20020922.htm

2 Peter 2 20:21

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Hey look, I can quote scripture too. Also, it flies directly into the face of what your quoted scripture says. Look at that! It says quite clearly that they had "known the way", aaaaand it's gone. 

Now after that more light-hearted part of my response, don't go telling me, or any other former Christian here that they weren't real Christians! For the majority of my life, I was as devout as can be. It was all real. I felt the divinity. I truly felt that Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice. I feared hell, and living in a world, meeting all sorts of incredible people who didn't believe what I did, I spent many a long night sometimes lamenting, and sometimes literally crying over the eventual eternal torture that would befall people who meant the world to me. 

I will respectfully hold back the (much more colourful) words that initially popped into my head when I thought of how to express myself here. 

argument is a fallacious appeal to consequence - that without god life has no meaning and that we might as well just get down to slaughtering one another. And you base this demonstrably childish fallacy on bald assertion, failing to comprehend the fundamental truth that meaning is a subjective experience unique to each of us but that humans evolved to live in groups.

You also try to establish a false dichotomy in which either one is a christian or one is prone to the 'violence and anger that comes naturally to a lot of people' this despite the fact in my country the murder rate is one in 100,000 and falling while the rate of telling white lies is probably 100,000 in 100,000. The christian claim that we're all about to go nuts and start killing and raping is gormless in the extreme. 

Then there's the foolish contention that we are all 'just pieces of meat' unless there's a god and as pieces of meat we should think nothing of raping and murdering and robbing each others' grandmothers or whatever other dreadful act takes our fancy.

But, you see, there are these things called mirror neurons and there's this thing called empathy and we all have consciences, which in the case of atheists cannot be short circuited by a quick begging session to the 'almighty' fabrication that exists only in the theist head. 

Harley made a great point earlier in this thread when he asked if there was no god whether you would stop caring. When I stopped believing I found not only had I not changed but I had realised the responsibility for my actions was entirely my own. I have never cared more. 

It's curious that you can talk to a group of humans at least your equal in sense and education and ignore their honest explanations of the ways in which their lives have more meaning without a god. This inability to listen, followed by relentless assertions about things you cannot prove, suggests a deep confirmation bias. 

If you bother to reply to me, why not start with a definition of this necessary god in one paragraph using terms that can be comprehended. Try not to weave a fabric of Aquinas-like assertions. Tell me one thing about god that can repeatedly be demonstrated to be true. Prove to me that like us, you are not simply self governed. 

I still as an atheist feel it is just as important to live my life that way and have taught my children so in word and deed even in the simplest of things. My wife even makes fun of me because of my stringent honesty.

We all have it and that's why even atheists are generally nice.

Some religious people try to undermine it with their beliefs.

http://www.theage.com.au/technology/sci-tech/the-hormone-that-makes-us-good-or-evil-20120905-25eyx.html

Hmmmm, lets see, for me the point of my life is to pro create and to make the life of my child a better life than what I had, as well to make my community better for the future for the society I live in, that is 1 reason, I also enjoy my life and all the experience that I have had and I am trying to have, this is the only life I have so i wish to experience and do as much as possible. As for your reasoning to do anything we want and there is no reason  to behave, well I must explain to you that if the only reason you behave is a fear of god or hell, then you're a psychopath. I don't harm others because of empathy and because there is no benefit for me or my family in doing such action, on the contrary it is detrimental as such actions would 1: I would gain nothing from such actions, 2: have me taken away from my family, 3: not give a good example to my children. We as a society have made laws against harming others (such as murder, assault, sexual assault) because it is detrimental to society, those morals that we as a society have chosen to follow has proven to be beneficial, no god required as many other societies have shown to have the same moral decisions against, murder, assault and rape that are not christian nations.

If the only reason you don't do any of the above is because you want to be in god's good grace instead of being a good person, then so be it, however it does not change the fact the most humans have empathy, we can reason and for the most part see the benefit of living in peace with each other and helping each other out vs beating the crap out of each other, I know this is a hard thing for you to comprehend, seeing your post so far it just seems  you are not a good person to be a good person but because you want a reward of heaven or god, which is pretty much a selfish reason.

We as human act as human, and we as human can reason as to why good actions are better than bad actions, or following to good moral attitudes benefits us as a whole than using bad moral attitudes. Even if nothing comes from after this life, I would like to make sure that my child has a future better than the present that we live in all the better, if I can teach her to be a good person, she benefits from it in the long run, if you cannot see this, then I cannot help you, you are blinded by ignorance or religion, either way it is my reason, you don't have to agree with it, I personally don't care until that is your religion tries to enforce their views on society, you can believe all you want, without any proof that god exists, you have nothing but blind ignorant faith.

So in all your years as a Christian and a minister, you never once saw a person's live improve for the positive under Christ?  If you did, how can you claim that an atheist way of living is better?   I've seen harden ex-cons give up their drugs to God, and become loving caring human beings.  You call it mind control, but God always transforms a person for the better.  

One of my favorite examples is the salvation of Brian Head Welch, ex-Korn guitarist.  Korn is one of the biggest rock bands in the world.  Brian was able to enjoy life's most sinful pleasures in great excesss.  Fame, money, awards,  tons of women and sex.   Yet, it didn't satisfy.  It didn't give him life.  Instead, he became suicidal and addicted to meth.   He found Christ, and quit his drug habit immediately.  Now he is making music for Jesus, touring the country and giving hope to many who can only relate to someone like him.  Are you going to tell me he would be better off as an atheist?

Being a Christian means freedom from sin and more abundant life.  Freedom from the desire to engage in harmful sinful activities.  Sure you are free to look at hot women, lust for them, and have sex with multiple partners.  But God didn't design it that way because it damages a person.  Let's just say, if you followed God's laws on sex, you wouldn't have to be sweating out waiting for your HIV test results! 

The Middle East is a great example of what happens when you allow religions to control a country.

The Bible does not condone rape.  That is simply your misinterpretation.  Funny how atheists refuse to accept any other interpretation except the ones that make God look bad.  Any tales of incest only demonstrate the honesty of the Bible.  It  doesn't sweep anything under the rug.  Man did some pretty rotten things back then.  The Bible reports the truth as it happen.  Doesn't mean God approved of man's action.

Welcome to the fantasy world of atheists where atheists are always 100% correct on ANY topic and they ALWAYS win the argument!  So I go back and answer one of the old posts in that thread, I get zero recognition for NOT running away, and now you pull out this classic dodge again.  I'll answer whatever I want to.  I owe you nothing.

What do you want ? Some kind of medal ? However, if you wish to stay on board and continue acting like a little bitch. Go right ahead and keep making a fool of yourself.

Because I don't want to be scammed, I don't scam other people, and I look down on people who scam others to make it harder for them to succeed.

I care. I think you'll find most people care, because it directly affects them. Most people don't want to live in a world where murder is perfectly legal, so murder is illegal in most, if not all, places.

You don't know that. What if that cheque would have helped pay for her grandkids schooling, and with that schooling that kid grows up to be an influential ambassador or president or doctor or scientist or something else, instead of someone living mostly on welfare or in the street?

It gets significantly more major as you step up the initial conditions. Invent something and revolutionise the world. Save someones life and you may give the opportunity of life to thousands of generations of people. Start a revolution and change the country, or the world.

Who knows what will happen to the Voyager probes which are leaving the solar system? They may fly through space for thousands of years and be discovered by another species, even if we're extinct by then.

Even if not, what's the point in having such a depressing outlook on life that you just sit at home and wait to die? It then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, where you impact noone because you're all by yourself, wilfully irrelevant to everyone.

I could, obviously, easily keep going with the rest of the OP, but I'm already at 4 posts, so I'll call it for now.

 Respond by answering the questions in that thread please. You get no kudos for merely hanging around and bitching.

Seriously? That "offends" you? Ads like this couldn't possibly be more American, a hot chick holding a cross- I see no hate whatsoever and I'm anti-PETA. I'll stare at the picture a bit more and see where the "hate" is. This kind of ad would get you stoned in the Middle East for displaying too much skin. 

I have seen far more in your face offensive atheist ads. I also see a billboard almost everyday on the freeway telling me that I am going to burn in hell for eternity, I would describe that as hateful. I have had theists say very nasty things to me and many people randomly say things like "you're an atheist? But you are such a nice guy." Yeah, guess what, sometimes people are not always nice to each other and people often hold stereotypes that are inaccurate. Get over it. The great thing about our country is that we are allowed to offend each other, its called free fucking speech and that is what I went into the military to protect. I hope your fellow soldiers don't share your views, because if they do our country is in bigger trouble than I thought.