God and the Everything. Universe included. +Alaska state taxes +$19.99 shipping and handling
Offline I've been asked a couple of times why I prefer to call the universe God. Here you go: The God of my misunderstanding would have to include Everything and Everything else. So the universe would be still inadequate. So when I talk about God I'm not just referring to the universe, but the Everything.
I do pray and meditate. I would consider myself a very spiritual person. It serves a purpose in my life that I choose not to do without.
As to the Theist/Atheist debate.... I think that when a person believes something, or has faith, it naturally becomes their reality. And their truth. So if you were to tell me that there is no God, I could not possibly argue with you, because that IS your truth. I think that following ones own path and developing opinions and beliefs is very important. It can be a very interesting journey. And a journey is all that we have. I've found that doing the "right" thing or the "good" thing just because I want to has led me to the greatest freedom I've ever experienced. Almost a sense of knowing, which (in my humble opinion) is the ultimate form of faith.
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And the difference between that and just making stuff up is what exactly ? (If that sounds disrespectful, it's not meant to be. Just trying to cut to the chase)
That's generally not how it goes around here. People might ask you for proof that there is a god.
Interesting thoughts.
My problem comes when you claim that everybody has their own particular truth or reality that applies to them whether or not it works with the reality or the truths that are common to all.
1+1=3 doesn't miraculously work because you believe it's true.
Nothing wrong with developing beliefs and opinions as long as you realize that's it's a search for truth and not truth itself.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Faith = Reality
Faith = Truth
Faith = Knowledge
You've lowered the criteria for truth, reality, and knowledge to that of faith. But what is faith and opinion in a world where nothing is true, real, or known? Why have faith?
Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs
Very thought provoking. Mathematics has laws and it is a valuable tool. I'm not a mathematician but I "know" that 1+1=2. But math is just a part of reality, truth and knowledge.
Einstein said something like " as much as the laws of math refer to reality, they are not certain; and in as much as they are certain, they don't refer to reality". or something like that.
And yet no one has their individual mathematics. Your claim leads to maths being as individual as you believe truth and reality are, i.e each person has their own that uniquely applies to them. What you believe leads to "1+1" equaling 0 to infinity depending on what an individual might believe.
Your Einstein quote doesn't imply that everyone has their own maths, truth or reality that works for them individually so I'm not sure why you brought it up.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Hey there. I wouldn't go that far meow. I don't think that faith equals reality and truth and knowledge. I didn't mean for it to come across that way if it did. I saw this post last night and it really had me in deep thought for awhile. I started thinking about what truth and knowledge and reality mean to me. When I got to work this morning I started doing some research and found out that those three things are "rabbit holes".... very deep ones. If I was inclined to I could spend the entirety of my life deep down in them. And quite possibly never come out with a clear answer. So again. What do those three things mean to me?
Truth.... To be true to my "self". My experiences are true. My perception is true. When I act in a way that is true(to myself and others). I can relate truth to an ice cold glass of pure water on a hot day, it feels really good to drink down.
Reality.... Experiencing the world around me through my five senses AND through my emotions and feelings. I think that reality is subjective. It is not possible for anyone to experience reality from the same perspective at the same moment in time.
Knowledge.... Earlier I said that I have a sense of knowing. Knowledge is the accumulation of information and experiences. It's up to me what information I deem useful enough to keep and practice. Experiences are usually useful. The experience is either "good" or "bad", so I can choose to keep behaving or acting a certain way if the effects are useful and beneficial to me. Or, if I experience a bad effect that I don't like I have a choice to keep doing that action and then keep experiencing the bad effect, or I can alter my behavior and actions.
Hopefully this is making some kind of sense
Everyone cannot have their own maths. Math is a tool and a very valuable tool. I certainly did not imply that everyone has their own maths
Math does not equal reality.
Actually, you did.
You said that maths are a part of reality, truth and knowledge. You also claim that everyone can have their own reality, truth and knowledge unique to them. Ergo, you implied that everyone has their own mathematics.
Or are you saying tha mathematics transcend reality but reality can't transcend the individual?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Well here is something that might be interesting to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTF-hHGbQ6s
Well does everyone have their own math?
Is math subjective? I don't know, but I think math is objective.
Is reality subjective? I don't know, but I think that it is.
Is truth subjective? I don't know, but I think it may be.
Is knowledge subjective? yes... but really, I do not know.
Any "claims" that I make are not me asserting that they are truth. In fact, I would say that I claim to know nothing. By admitting to know nothing I ensure that I remain teachable on this journey through life.
Now you're backpedaling on the position you held in the OP. I look forward to you making up your mind.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
View and find Image :
Image submitted by danatemporary on November 24, 2012 for the OP.
#6
{ X wrote:}
Haha
fine fine. Okay. I'm having a little trouble explaining myself, I'll admit.
Here goes:I see my perception as being reality... period. It can never be the same as what another person sees or feels at any given moment.
And all these things I am writing are just thoughts. Things that I've thought about.... Yes. You could say that I made it up and just pulled it out of thin air. No evidence... No proof... Just thoughts.
And you've been shown why those thoughts make no sense. Kind of like your God=Universe=God position.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Your belief sort of sounds like Einstein's "god" which was Spinoza's god or "Nature" which I believe was a spin off from Hindu (endless, ever connected).
Pray and meditation are two different things; and there is a reason why I'm pointing this out. (praying) would be having basically a one-sided conversation with an deity (or higher power). You pray to "the Universe", "the Everything" or "a god" in the hope that they would hear you. (meditation) is more of a self prayer, which focuses on quieting the mind so that some realization can be made.
I find that people often misuse "true", 'truth", "right", "wrong", "good", "bad" and "reality".
1+1=2 is true.
I can tell the truth, "I believe 1+1=2"
It is right to not kill others <--- opinion
It is wrong to not to kill others <---- opinion
Cheerios taste good <---- opinion
Cheerios taste bad <----- opinion
Reality is that 1+1=2 whether you believe in it or not.
I think that I would agree with that assessment, if I am reading the OP correctly.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
What's in the Everything but not in the Universe?
How can your brain have any interaction with this, when your brain works entirely within the universe, and no-where else?
You and your brain live within the universe. Anything that interacts with the universe must exist within the universe, otherwise we couldn't perceive it. Therefore anything that doesn't exist within the universe (but does exist in your Everything) cannot be seen/felt/found by beings living in the Universe.
Therefore you can't know about this extra-universe stuff - so you're just making it up.
Good point. But the reason that I describe god as everything and not just the universe is because that would be putting god in a box. Everyone else does a good job of that so I'll leave that to them. I believe in god, but my "faith" is always evolving and changing and growing. Just as I keep my "self" in a constant state of positive growth, physically and mentally and spiritually. It is a practice of mindfulness or awareness.
When you keep redefining what you worship what's the point?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I think I understand where your coming from. After I left christianity, I had views similiar to this towards the end of my theist days. I know I am playing devil's advocate here
But can't help it. Do you think there might be anything that would convince of the possibility that god may not exist ?
I am what they call an agnostic athiest. I can't say with 100% certainty that there is not a god, I just see zero evidence thus far, to support the claim there is one.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Presuppositionalism - you're assuming God exists initially. But to make it work, you have to have him outside the universe and not subject to its laws.
My previous point stands. If God exists, it must have an effect on the Universe (even if it doesn't fully reside in it) - and therefore must be subject to Universal laws. And is therefore measurable.
As nothing 'god-like' has ever been measured, it's either not interacting with the universe, or doesn't exist. these two options are mutually equivalent for a universe-dwelling being like you, or me.
Haha. My thoughts make sense to me. You really haven't shown me anything besides that 1+1=2
And I assure you, I was already aware of that. As I've said before words or numbers on paper are well and good. As well as science and reason. But to say that numbers and math IS reality.... I don't know. Math describes systems and things in the world around me. But it isn't those things or systems. The equations themselves are not living.
There was a time in my life when I was close to the bottom. I was in a "hell" of my own construction. Locked in a prison that was of my own mental construction. The bars forged with pride and the chains with fear. I thought my life was over and done. I had nothing to live for. But something happened. A vast change in the way I saw the world around me. I felt a new power and strength flow into me. Like I discovered a new limitless resource that is intangible. Something that I could not possibly bottle up and show you. Miracles. I've seen miracles. Experienced miracles. Doubt is something that I do not have any more. But it is as you said, completely not measurable.
No-one here has said maths IS reality. It's just a useful tool (that's repeatable, verifiable and logical) for modelling what we see and experience around us.
Everything we experience in the world can be modelled accordingly.
Things that cannot be experienced, and that subsequently can't be modelled do not fall without our ability to experience, and therefore can be considered extraneous to our model.
Are you making a supernatural claim, or are you talking about something that happened to you that you have no rational explanation for ?
Do share, cause we can help you out with that.
Besides my own experience of rising from the dead(spiritually and mentally). I've experienced the "rebirth" and growth and positive change of others. From dead to living. The greatest miracle on earth.
BTW, I'm not by computers very much. maybe a couple days a week for a few hours. See you beautiful people later
Unfortunately arguments from personal experience don't carry much weight around here.
See the thread Brian Sapient posted about the email he received from the woman with obvious psychological issues.
Here: http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/33367
Do we believe that she's been molested by the devil, or do we question this? Your personal experiences are no different without evidence.
So when you say "death", "rebirth", "miracle", etc, you're just being metaphorical. Okay.
You know, there's really no need for all that dramatical language. Life has ups and downs for everyone.
Agreed. THis is really all just smoke and mirrors for making reality seem more magical.
To do that, all you really need to do is look out of your window at the sky on a cold clear night. 100 Billion stars out there in our galaxy alone, and another 100 Billion galaxies shining at us too. That's spectacular enough for me. I don't need a guy walking on water to be amazed.
Of course they do - you claim to have a malleable reality that can fit whatever you want. Much like th Christiian whose God miraculously agrees with everything they think and say/ As others have said - maths aren't reality. However, maths don't change because someone disbelieves the results.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Your thoughts make sense to you but have you tested them over and over to find it they hold true? For example, I had an experience when my grandmother came to me while I was asleep, half way around the world. She told me she had died and everything was "OK", etc.
At first one would take it at face value and say she had visited me through her spirit and wanted me to know she was OK. Others would say that I had multiple dreams over a long period of time but since we forget most of our dreams that this one happened to come along right when she died; coincidence?
What is reality and what isn't? Reality by definition is the state of things as they actually exist rather than an idealistic view of them. We like to think that there is "life after death" but in reality we either don't have the data to prove this or it doesn't exist at all.
Math and numbers are true when the equation has proof that it is true. Math and numbers are as true and alive as religion because humans give them meaning. If all humans ceased to exist, all religions would cease. Would mathematics of the Universe still is there even if no one can calculate them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest
Wow. I'm going to use that as a quote. You will be famous for this...
"All you really need to do is look out of your window at the sky on a cold clear night. 100 Billion stars out there in our galaxy alone, and another 100 Billion galaxies shining at us too. That's spectacular enough for me. I don't need a guy walking on water to be amazed."
- GodsUseForAMosquito, 11/26/12
You are using your creative writing skills to throw colorful adjectives out making things all fancy and frilly.
You had an awakening and you realized you were holding yourself back. You cut your ego down to size and woke up to the beauty of the Universe and also the crap.
Nothing magical about it; many of us have done the same.
You referred to yourself earlier as a Pantheist and stated that it is just a label, which is fair enough in a way; but in order to understand what you mean, labels and definitions are useful.
There are various definitions of these terms, but putting it simply from my understanding, a Pantheist equates the universe with God and a Panentheist feels that God is bigger than the universe.
So, to me, you sound more like a Panentheist than a Pantheist.
As mentioned earlier by another poster, the rebuttal to Pantheism is: "why not just call the universe Barry?".
Do you think you would identify as a Panentheist?
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panentheism/ offers some meaty substances.
I believe what you found was purpose, meaning, something to live for... Since things like this tend to be very dependent on who you are, explaining them to others will be inherently challenging...
Well, some people do have it more extreme than others...
While I agree the language is quite dramatic, Minty's experience may have felt that way to him (or her).
Absolutely. But Minty mentioned having experienced "miracles". I've found that, for clarity's sake, it helps to ask if they mean anything supernatural by that.
He/she doesn't. Which is good.
Love that! That reminds me of a book I've read called One Hundred Billion Suns. Or something of that nature, very good book although a bit outdated. Dude, reality is magical, I agree. It is beautiful and epic and grand and good, BUT, it is only that way if I choose to perceive it that way. Which I do... choose to do.
YES! That fits. Panentheism more thoroughly describes my belief system... wow.. thank you for that revelation. So I'm officially claiming panentheism. Word. That makes me happy...
You are quite right. To your question I would say that I believe it is possible that god may not exist. Who could REALLY know for sure? Like I said before my beliefs are very open. I do however believe and pray to god of my own misunderstanding. "Live and let live".
I think I haven't been very clear with my thoughts. Having a malleable reality.... that would be like alchemy... I think. I don't mean to claim such things. Christianity may be bogus, BUT it does exist. People believe it and give it "power" and "life". So for all practical purposes it is real... to them. Not for me though. I'll admit that there is an objective reality. But what is more important is how I or we perceive this reality. As my perception changes, reality seems to change.
Then I'd think you have to make at least one more check.
Does the discovery that I perceived already exist in objective reality? If so, you learned something new. You didn't change reality. If not, more testing may be needed.
Christians, for all intents and purposes, believe they have a separate reality and that it is indeed malleable. They believe that their unchanging God has a plan for everything but that plan can be changed if they petition him.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
It's funny that, how christians pray for things to go this way or that. It makes me giggle inside. But, they do have the right to do so if they please. If only they understood the concept of cause and effect.
Keyword here=seems. So I'm not and never was claiming to have a malleable reality.
Question: Does objective reality really matter if none of us are here to perceive it?
Who's we?
Objective reality matters - otherwise we wouldn't be here typing into a forum on the internet. It doesn't matter who you are, where you live, what religion you are, whether or not you believe in ghosts - you have a computer, internet access - and it all works as advertised.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
That wasn't the question lol. You answered half of the question... kind of. Just sayin'.
That was a very pertinent question. Bacteria, insects, plants, fungi, etc, etc, all are dependent on objective reality. I am an advocate for some self-awareness in creatures not human, but I don't believe bacteria are on that spectrum. And their reality matters to them, even if they are not self aware nor are they capable of formulating concepts such as objective, subjective, and reality. Without humans, bacteria, insects, plants, fungi, etc, etc, will continue to exist - so who constitutes your "us" who are not here to perceive? Humans only? Then, yes, it would all be here without humans.
Objective reality is repeatably and verifiably measurable. That is, more than one person can measure and get results similar to another person who measures the same object with a similar measuring device.
Truth is verifiable, repeatable patterns.
Which leaves out god/s/dess as an objective reality or truth, since as near as I (and many others) can tell, s/he/it isn't measurable, and s/he/it repeats no pattern.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Minty, I've only read your first post and haven't read any replies. I just wanted to point out that there are things that are true, and things that aren't. There are objective verifiable truths. I choose to believe those truths. I don't chose to believe my truth, or your truth, or a persuasive truth... I chose to believe the truth that we can verify.
It's nice to have that spiritual feeling, and I can feel that in the wonder and beauty of things that are true. Like the Hubble Deep Field for example.
Why choose a truth that is only true to you? Why not live in reality with me?
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My point is this: Too often peoples mis-/perception of reality overrides objective reality.
Examples:
Extremism in any sense. Extremism is completely irrational
Suicide
Addiction
Religion
Just to name a few. These peoples experiences and actions are as real as it gets.
So for all practical purposes perception is reality. That is all I'm trying to say lol.
Extremism is not completely irrational. Oftentimes in history it was extremism which wiped out extremism.
Suicide is not completely irrational. If your projected future life is full of unchanging pain and debilitation with no hope to accomplish anything you would value, then it is rational to desire your suffering to end.
Addiction is not completely irrational. People with addictions have accomplished great things, because of their addictions.
Religion is not completely irrational. It forms communities and social bonds.
I'd say your perception of reality is flawed.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Do you know how to read? You are irrational. Potsmoking Canadians do not have anything real to say and that is all. Maybe you should try to go outside one day and see the sunshine. It is quite fun.
Much better than you.
Lols. Theist projection.
And you call me irrational? Lol. You're not just irrational, you're blatantly stupid.
No, it isn't. Maybe you should go back to grade school and get yourself an education before the tiny smudge of a brain you have completely atrophies.
Oops... too late.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.