Theists come and go around here. We usually have about two or three at any given time that are active. Where theism is wrong depends on your particular flavor of theism. You are wrong everywhere that your beliefs are not consistent with reality. 

If theists in general, it's churches, congregations or spiritual leaders didn't try to thrust their beliefs on the general public via threats of enternal damnation, wrath of it's deity, if people do not follow it's laws, rituals or religious dogma. If it didn't inflict it's ignorance on the people then I wouldn't have any issues. Yet we have misery heaped upon the general public, in many cases against those that believe differently or don't believe in it at all. WWI was more or less an infighting of believers, which inflicted misery upon all of europe all for the glory of god. It is when believer want to change laws to suit their beliefs, not because it is better or more rational, but because their god says so. From the ignorance that the roman church heaped on africa in regards to condoms, to the islamic blasphemy laws and jihads against anyone that does not believe like they do. Even worse because it expects us to suspend reason and logic to believe in a deity that has no evidence to show that it exists and needs us to defy all logic and reason for it to exist.

 Oops, I was enjoying writing my last post I forgot to add something related to the first bit (about theism being wrong, as in incorrect).

The reason theism is "just wrong", as in damaging, is that it breeds precisely the sort of ignorance that I outlined.

- If every theist was progressive,

- If they updated their holy books (or at LEAST had authoritative interpretations to square it with modern science, and more importantly modern morality),

- If they all simply looked to prayer as a "last resort" (rather than praying for a burst appendix to just get better)

- If they stopped fighting wars over religion (say it's over land all you want...they want a SPECIFIC piece of land with only one special attribute...warring religious groups say that god gave them THAT land, and it's most important)

Then theism would be ok. Unfortunately they don't do these things, so I will continue to label it as destructive. 

I hate giving the speech about the word "respect", but the word is far too widely used to silence criticism and dissent for nothing more than getting one's ego bruised.

I hate the word "respect". It is misused and loaded and again, simply saying "don't pick on me".

I like the word "value". I value claims that can be credibly demonstrated beyond one's own personal likes or predilections. Claims that are merely of tradition DO NOT nor should ever get taboo status.

There is a difference between a person's human  rights, which in the civil west we SHOULD protect everyone's right to believe and make claims we don't agree with.

AND, just like in personal relationships such as family and friends and co-workers. One can like or love someone without liking every sentence they might utter in life.

Claims are not people. Claims are positions people hold. Claims do not deserve blind value. They can only be universal when the claim is demonstrable beyond personal bias to the point were labels don't matter, much like computers are demonstrable and are not inventions of a label, but a universal tool, like a hammer or tellescope.

"Respect" is an insidious word. It is used as a passive aggressive way of avoiding questioning and introspection.

The best way I have seen people defuse this childlike concept is the following.

"Which do you value more? Believing something that feels good, or. having facts even if that might mean you are wrong"

"Respect" is the child's way of avoiding growing up. Humans deserve the dignity of having the freedom to make any claim they want, but claims themselves do not deserve automatic protection even if civil society values individual freedom.

I am glad humans in the past decided not to respect sexism, slavery or genocide. If our species never questioned social norms, our species never would have left the caves.

The majority of theists are wrong. The vast majority. There is no heaven, there is no hell as most theists believe. Past and future are delusions, there is only now. This moment right now. It is always the present, and every moment is a gift. There is no light at the end of the tunnel. Heaven and hell are just a state of mind, that can be experienced only in the now. Cause and Effect is the law of the land, otherwise known as karma. I have free will 100%. The only thing I have control or power over is self. My thoughts my feelings my actions. My re actions. Anything worth doing is an end in itself. Aspire to be selfless, to go around doing good and being good to people. That is heaven. Giving of ones self freely with no thought of return is an end in itself. So yes, the vast majority of theists are wrong. They are driven by wrong motives and have no idea what heaven or hell is. 

^^^ Just my 2 cents, and that is about all that it is worth.... if that.. happy days to all

I think what most people don't realize is that a thousand people can read the same thing and get a thousand different meanings from it. I find that I can read something and get something that I can incorporate in my self or life journey, then a year later I can read the same thing and it will mean something different. And I can use that also for positive self growth. So as I grow and change, my perception of the book grows and changes as well. If I can use the scriptures for positive forward growth then I use it. If I don't get anything worth using or that doesn't align with my "self" then I disregard or discard...... Again, just my 2 cents... Happy days

No doubt I see what you mean. Books are written by the hand of man... period. Bible included. There are a lot of beautiful stories written in a highly poetic fashion. Just as some one is inspired to write poetry or fiction, so it is with all great writings. But with something that old there is probably so much that is lost in translation. It is a book, it can help or hinder, the choice is up to the reader.

Right and wrong at the same time. The past and future aren't delusions. However to say "there is only now" is technically correct, because what was before isn't...it was. What will be isn't, but it will be. Because of that, it IS always the present. 

God has done much more than that. He came down to earth in the Person of Jesus Christ, Who lived a perfect live, and Who then died and rose again to save sinners like you and me. It was wonderful for God to give us the Bible in Hebrew and Greek and to send the Holy Spirit into the world to apply God's Word.

Same god that killed 42 children for calling a prophet bald? Or says blessed is he who dashes the heads of the little ones on rocks? That loving god that has done so much for us? The same one that did nothing for those children today?

Don't bring mass murders into this debate. Such random events and behaviours have no relevance to the evolutionary discussion. Some people are demented. End of story. This guy did not kill over resources. No doubt the adults died trying to protect the children. Who knows what confluence of personal weird led to this? Humans live in mutually supportive societies. How long would we last if idiots like this guy were the norm rather than the exception?

I don't know what the answer is here but it's clear that access to guns and mental problems are not a good combination. It's unsavoury of you to try and use this dreadful event as a part of your 'argument' against evolutionary theory, which amounts to nothing more than a fallacious appeal to consequence. Most of us would strongly argue 'harm no other'. 

Well it obviously wasn't prevented by a god. What kind of god would allow such a tragedy to take place when it is so easily prevented by him? The fact is that the world isn't perfect and sometimes it isn't pretty. If I was a god, I would make the world perfect and pretty. 

You are a sick twisted fuck. 

And while you are at it buy a history book (use the amazon link to your right). Over 50,000 civilians died in the Civil War, many of them children. And that doesn't factor in those children who became ill due to limited and poor quality food supplies and lack of medical attention caused by the war. 

your mealy mouthed platitudes about repentance here. Even taking events like this into account the global life expectancy soars ever higher. God has no part in any of this. Instead its the empirical approach to medical science, including clean water, sanitation and nutrition that saves lives. And the efforts of human beings themselves. Reading your posts I understand why even as a child my better nature rebelled at the thought of a 'loving' god who planned to massacre my friends. Christianity is a poisonous hate-filled doctrine. Thanks for reminding us all why we are not christians. 

It does seem that I validated your world view. Well, neither Saul of Tarsus, nor C. S. Lewis, nor Malcolm Muggeridge was converted in a day. Jesus told His disciples, "Without Me you can do nothing." You write well, and it was a tonic to exchange with you. Good night.

 CalvinistScamArtist  -- The Bible also says dont return Evil for Evil bright-eyes

 Back to the Original Question of the OP -- No intention on interupting  Off-New-Topic

  The OP is a 19yr with finals so big question-mark. BrotherDavid phiologist I wish would join. Caposkia (of OT Stories - Myths, Legend, Parables, or Real) has gotten 'busy' so no show, for the indefinite future. Furry now thinks her God Concept (Panentheistic) is :imaginary, then blew the doors off the place.  Jean finally to tired of cyberstalking Brian37 via his poetry corner, so a no show. Then are three I know I am forgetting. Terakek unknown Todangst is a cross off the list.   Fonzie is Fonzie he has a thread and  Gramps hes busy so cross him off the list. Twd39 hard gauge do not know (cross off list), JesusLovesYou is mad at the board so no show. Anyone else ? Ask somebody else, Man.

 p.s. -- Vastet is missing, who I hope is alright and everything is fine (I hope). Big Bro not seeing around much either. Strike that it wasnt his thread is all.

 ( Edit :: Two typeos )

Even eternal truth doesn't last forever.

It did, dozens of them.

Most all the bible was originally composed in Greek, the OT in the 2nd c. BC. There is no evidence Hebrew was ever spoken language. Nor is there any reason for any bible believer to think Hebrew ever existed as a real language. Of course that would assume bible believers are capable of rational thought.

As to that perfect life crap, why would you make up such a claim? A celibate is "perfect?" A castrati for all we know or he whored around. Or gay because one of the apostles is noted to be the one he loved.

The whole idea of death as sacrifice does not appear until the 3rd c. AD and then not particularly strongly.

ˆ If you (Professor) want to talk about teaching, dont level poetic  non-sense you cannot even find in the text, make statements. And then go into denial mode as if to say you didnt mean what you were saying and start back-peddling.

re :: Love and honor are included . . taught by a reformed man

  This was written for Lee but as much applies to you as any.

  The impression is a lack of understanding of the guiding principles given to everyone by Paul is seen in these (plural) Threads. Though Man is very small, and the great and awesome wonders found all around him, and the whole of creation, continue to impress upon him. No offense but you wouldnt make it even as a Sunday School Teacher.  There is a whole level in terms of principles you arent even about to nor able to articulate. It's as if the principles and teachings of the later Paul, are often somehow missed, and in  your case, your heart completely. You quote Paul with every time you make a post there at the bottom, by what I read today. At least remember the author of those words, in part, from his biography. Paul, About him. 

 Paul (a.k.a.  formally Saul), understanding where he came from.

   For the sake of space I wont go into details about the beliefs of Paul (Saul Paulus) of Judaism but more the acts of Paul prior to his famous conversion experience. On in particular. The Apostle Paul, to the many christians who have had the opportunity to do even the beginnings of a cursory study of this 1st century icon of the primitive church, still somehow (to some) he remains a highly enigmatic figure. Though any attempt of mentioning Paul should mention his life and founding of many churches. Good place to start would be in one of the first places he is mentioned in the books of the Bible. Paul was born a Roman citizen, in a prominent, wealthy family in Tarsus. As a Roman citizen had two names, one which these would indicate his background or heritage apart from Rome, and the other, which would be in the style Roman heritage. Paul's Roman name Saul Paulus was such a name, so he actually bore two names, the Hebrew Saul meaning "desired" or "asked for," and the Roman Paulus, meaning "small." It is apt that he should later known to history as 'Paul' for a plethora of reasons ( not least of which his teachings on humility). Much later on in the book, When an official went to stretched him out to flog Paul, "Paul said to the centurion standing there, "Is it legal for you to flog a Roman citizen who hasn't even been found guilty?'", not the last time Paul used his status as a citizen, with similar encounters. Going to an earlier time, We find the scene. By rule of the council, the condemning a christian to stoning. Remember according to the book of Acts of the Apostles, Stephen (you know who) was among seven men of the early church at Jerusalem. At critical moments in the narrative of Acts. He is famous for his stellar reputation in life, though the world would consider a nobody, he was more popularly known for his death, in the Stoning of (Saint) Stephen. The least of these, certainly in this case, was be the of the greatest.  If you pick up in the texts we see a few of the details of how 1st Century Stephen ended up serving as martyr. With the text it all started out over an issue where the  widows were neglected in the daily distribution . . .  

Acts 6

  ² Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, “It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables. ³ Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, .. whom we may appoint over this [And] they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit ..⁸ And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people. ⁹ Then there arose some .. disputing with Stephen. ¹¹“We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God.”  ^12b   brought him before the council ¹⁵ And all who sat in the council, looking steadfastly at him, saw his face as the face of an angel [(words found in the text)]. 7 ⁵⁴ When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. ⁵⁵ But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ⁵⁶ “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”⁵⁷ At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him in their zeal, dragged Stephen out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul (a.k.a - Paul). [Saint Stephen] cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.”, or "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" 

   Now I myself have heard it said, 'Saul' was just holding their coats for them. As a potential point of clarification about Paul's role in all this “. . .Joseph Shulam thinks sudar in later Hebrew can also mean ‘coat.’ Thus, he conjectures, the Greek translator of Acts from a presumed original Hebrew text didn’t understand the Jewish context and therefore wrote of laying coats at Paul's feet, whereas actually Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin, specifically, the one who held the sudar.”  He may have not been lobbing stones, there was nothing passive about his role in all this, proper understand is he agreed with them, even with some say. And didnt vote with his feet. Paul's reputation proceeded him , later on, so naturally there was a great deal of consternation about even accepting Paul into the early Jesus movement of the primitive church.

 Strange re-workings of the role & comparisons between Paul  and (Saint) Stephen formed,  love this  comment from the 19th Century "..has, indeed, been called a "colossal Saint Stephen;" but had the life of Saint Stephen been prolonged — had ho not been summoned, it may be, to yet loftier spheres of activity — wo know not to what further heights of moral grandeur reached". 19th Century Churchmen could sound pleasantly crazy, no doubt. I think I am more drawn to the use of language and the turning of a phrase though. Though the living-out the loftier aspect of moral grandeur I am drawn to as well.

The book of Philippians Paul wrote of himself

  6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless 7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss . . that I may gain Christ.

  Havent we read what  persecuting of the church entailed for (Saint) Stephen, 19th Century Church-man? Another one missing a plain reading of the text, I take it. What hell was born of zeal, from Paul, prior to his road to damascus 'conversion'? When Paul was older he had a better understanding, which led to the true reformation of the man. The figure left many words,  to carefully examine. It is not hard to project, however enigmatic (to some), I am sure he (Paul) later felt shame, that intense feeling of angst that made him wish the incident with Stephen could simply evaporate; extreme humiliation and rightful deep remorse even a despairing of life, from such a act in his former years. Even though living as a 'righteous' man, he missed a lot of things. Even in magazine articles you'll read if a person  has experienced a real guilt and also the trauma of being involved in such an act, though able to bare it, are forever changed by the experience. Paul (of Tarsus) was a Jew who had Roman citizenship and tried to stamp out christianity until he had a vision known to have happened on the way to Damascus. As the Roman Catholics say perhaps any one of us should be asking others to pray for your conversion by this hang-them-high stance we've witnessed with Lee, or your insane statement in this thread? All zeal must be tempered by love. One of the further things missed in the texts (with  some). 

 As teaching to all and all the brethren --
 

 [Show] Respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.  Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments . . and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. 12 The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness . . make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.
  19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
6a  Fore to be carnally minded is death

Micah-6:8 - He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

etc.

 In another thread I included an image. For any christian on the planet it should be instantly recognizable. As I meant to express yesterday in all of this :

  What that image I posted not in this thread with the heart shape, clearly indicated making a direct reference to what it was saying, it was making a statement. It wasnt laurel wreaths formed in the shape of hearts or some nebulous undefined love nor as cryptic as it was taken for. It was a direct reference to *this. As common-knowledge, should instantly be recognized  with no need to explain. When it isnt, its' telling  :

 The *Reference :

    "'Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,  does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not easily provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.  Love never fails; . .  When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.  For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide,  these three; but the greatest of these is love.'"         Every time I read these words I have to wipe tears from my eyes; it holds true, it touches 'my' heart.

p.s. -- Professor DON'T talk to me !!!

Yet the Old Testament books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are FILLED with stories of mass murders, ravishing and pillaging. Involving rape and child-killing. This was supposed to be when Yahweh was actually present and a part of the guiding force of Moses.

Not to mention this same "god" that supposedly is condemning us to mass murder, slaughtered all of the Egyptian firstborn.

Simply a lack of evidence and the sheer illogical viewpoint of it all.

I was VERY religious at one point and desperately wanted to believe.

Life has become easier without the dogmatic, medieval principles that follow some very abhorrent beliefs.

Better a mindless natural process than an intelligent "loving" god who gets its panties in a bunch, gives a guy mental illness, then lets him slaughter 20 children and 8 adults with because it's "jealous." I'm at least not sick enough to look at such a god and call it wonderful.

Where is your loving god? Didn't protect those kids I see.

what about the millions of children in schools in the U.S that did not get shot?

 T0  Jimenezj  Thanks for commenting Jimenezj. To be honest, It had completely slipped my mind that this thread even existed.  I hope you can benefit from a partial list of people who frequent the site. It was before the holiday (not to interrupt) .