I understand your info. It's the absurdity of the claims that surpised me. One is--the Nazi were aleins.

the problem may be that Si Fi has been around for about 80 years, and has become reality for floks. It seems a new generation expands the "previous". I just looked up the nearest star---4.3 light years away. Bear in mind now--aleins are supposed top be greatly smarter then we, and why, I have no idea. They would have to be born with fore-knowledge. I can't see how someone can know things they weren't taught. Buit there is the Flat Worm that apparently inherits experiences from the previous generation. But there again, that's not articulate knowledge. Somehow aleins were born knowing things. Imagine being born with the knowledge of a Warp Drive. Hummmmm. Nah, I don't think so. I don't think they would be here yet anymore then we would be there by now. I've always liked Si Fi, but today for me, it has to conform to reasonable science possibility, like Predator, or Terminator.  A vs P---nah--interesting --but not for me.

 

That's a caricature of science fiction, and it's false to boot. Most science fiction has humans as the dominant and most intelligent species. People who write about brilliant aliens are people who are bored with the typical status quo. And the fact is there's certainly billions of species out there which are more advanced than us. Writing them off the way you are is stupid. You might as well say: 'somehow humans were born with knowledge of how to build rockets and computers. Nah I don't think so'. How can you not comprehend how blatantly ridiculous that is?

Also: time machines are impossible. So Terminator is infinitely worse than any science fiction that features aliens who know more than humans do, according to your criteria.

yeah, most of asimov's and clarke's books focus almost exclusively on humans. i remember one of asimov's robot stories (an early one, i think) having primitive aliens on jupiter. i don't recall any of his robot, empire, or foundation novels having any aliens at all. clarke's books have intelligent aliens but usually the humans only catch fleeting glimpses of them, if at all.

Extra terrestrials couldn't have made it here as yet. SETI has been operating for about 20 years now with no hint of inteligently made radio waves. Over a period of 20 years would equal 20 light years--so that means that it's very unlikely that there are any established intelligent entities closer then 20 light years, as seen so far. But what if inteligent life came about 1000 years before SETI was set up and that at this time hasn't been detected then either. that means that (if one were to go by this) there's no intelligent beings as far out as 1000 light years. So then-lets say that the evolved 5 million years before us and became intelligent--that would mean that there's no one is in the area of 5 million light years from here. So, this idea of aleins getting here is an impossibility. This of course would depend uopn if and when they learned to use radio (electomagnetic) wave systems. So far it looks as though they (if they're there-inlelligent beings) they haven't developed radio comunications or they're not close enough to detect them. Then again--how far away would they have to be to create radio waves that can't be detected by us here. So--Aleins couldn't have arrived here as yet, of course, that would be acording to SETI.

If the Andrmeda Galaxy is 25 light years away and there's no signal from there then it's not likely there'anyone closer. If everything in our galaxy is less the distance from here to Andrmeda, the 25 light years is to far for detecting electromagnetics produced by intelligence. If SETi can detect any intelligently made electromagnetics in our galaxy then one can safely assume that there's no intelligent floks in this galaxy. Over 20 years with that detectable possiblity someone intelligent out there should be known by now. If someone out there is as intelligent as we they very likely would have discovered electromagnetic effects by now if they've been there for at least 20000 years. I would say --they haven't been here yet.

 

hasn't detected anything from as far as Alpha Centuri or it's direction, no aleins arrived here as yet. There's no one in the vacinity that has the knowledge to build a radio, (other then us) at least powerful enough for the signal to get here. If detectable radio waves haven't arrive here as yet, then neither did they.

But the concern of my post  is, did they get here yet. Useing the speed of light one can reason the posibilities. How many 1000s of years at 40,000 MPH would it take to arrive here from the closest star--which is the 3 star cluster Alpha Centuri at 4.3 light years distant. Lets say that it would take 100,000 years.

After the big bang there would have been many planets formed around stars about the same time as ours. Then---there should be intelligent life out there. what matters in this case is the distance between those planets. I don't know just how powerful a radio beam would have to be to get here from there. However--if Aleins have been going to and fro then they would be in our vacinity to be able to detect any radio transmissions they may produce---becasue they would be here. They would have contact (presumably) to their home planet. Those transmissions would be arriving here also and be detected. Unless thet're capable of ESP they can'r be here due to distance, and/or undetected radio waves. If they're evolutionary rate would be the same as ours (which I take as most likely) then they don'thave the tech to make the trip. If planets produce life at the same means and conditions then there'sno reason to see why they would be more intelligently evolved then we, as the same condition produce the same results. So far ascan be seen DNA produces what we have here as life. There's no reason to see  that DNA there would do any different-that is--it produces a flesh physical body of some kind.  If Aleins are in this vacinity there would be detectable signals, in a strange lanquage most likely.

A spaceship could still float right past us and we wouldn't have a clue. Even we are developing cloaking materials that cover the entire EM field. Any species capable of visiting us would almost certainly have perfected the technology by our standards.

The main thing is that Old Seer is incredibly ignorant on this subject, and anything he says should be ignored: because it's wrong. Hopelessly and absolutely wrong. As wrong as dividing by 0. As wrong as saying 100000000 = 3.

there was a segment on yesterdays PBS news on SETI. I was wrong that Andrmeda was 25 light yers distant--it's 2.5 billion. The fella said they,re searching galaxies for intelligent life. That means if there's floks in the Andromeda gallaxy they would have had to start broadcasting 2.5 billion years ago. That's half the age of the universe at 4.5 billion. The radio transmission isn't going to be here any time soon as I see it. The dissapation of the radio wave woud be tremendous and may not be detectable. Or, it'll be absorbed and reflected by other matter in it's path. One could safely say there's no one here from the Andromeda galaxy.

Give us your rundown on how your favorite Extraterrestrial Traveler managed to go past our planet. I don't want that it's "possible, I want to know "how" you know that it's possible and the general infomtion of "what" means makes it possible. I know how it's possible and how it's impossible, but lets get it from you. Start from the Big Bang.

 

The possibility of aliens coming here has nothing to do with my comments. My issue is that you are spewing a bunch of nonsense and that you think it proves aliens couldn't get here. I'm used to people who can't comprehend the vastness of space and time, but you don't even get the numbers right, let alone comprehend what the numbers signify.

Just for the hell of it, I'll prove your whole argument wrong from step 1.

~14 billion years ago, the big bang. For hundreds of thousands of years, there's just a mess of particles too hot to even form an atom. Then things cool down enough that neutrons and protons start combining to form ionised atoms of mostly hydrogen, and a little bit of helium. They attract electrons, stabalise, and suddenly the fog that permeated the entire universe is gone, and it's possible to see further than a few metres. (even if there was visual evidence of the big bang, we will never see it because the free floating electrons in the early years scattered light, making the universe opaque to the entire electromagnetic spectrum)

Around the time the first atoms form, the first stars start to coalesce. Giant blue super stars that are completely hydrogen and helium, because there isn't any other element yet. These stars, for the first time, begin fusing hydrogen into helium. In not too long a time (the first stars died quickly) the hydrogen mostly runs out and the stars get hot enough to fuse helium into carbon. Then carbon into magnesium (the first metal), oxygen, and neon. Then neon is fused into more oxygen and magnesium. Then oxygen into silicon. Then silicon is fused into iron, and no further fusion is possible; and the stars explode. Now elements other than hydrogen and helium are, for the first time, strewn throughout the universe. Only a few million years have passed since the big bang, and already there is enough materials to say that life could form. Though it is highly unlikely to survive long or even form in the first place: it is possible. 13+ billion years ago.

Since life is now possible, we can assume that it happened. Life is a chemical reaction, and chemical reactions happen the instant it becomes possible for them to happen. The universe isn't even a billion years old, and it has life.

But that life is very rare, like the elements the first stars fused. Probably less than 1 galaxy in a million has sufficient conditions to support life for more than a short time.

But as the first stars died, a new generation of stars was born from their ashes. Some were more like our sun than any in the first generation, others more like the original hydrogen/helium stars (hydrogen is still the most common element today). This second generation of stars contributed to the fusion of heavier elements, and made iron significantly more common. When the second generation of stars began to explode, and the third generation arose (our sun is a third generation star), life became MUCH more likely.

Because first and many second generation stars burned for only a few million years, it is possible that the first third generation stars are as much as 13 billion years old. Stars with sufficient elements and conditions to make our solar system were possible ~9 billion years before our solar system existed.

Now we'll switch to the examination of the rise of intelligence.

The Earth is about 4.5 billion years old, and it took about 800 million years (so far as we can tell) before life formed. Some postulate it was possible for life to form much earlier, within 200 million years, but the first evidence of it was after the Earth was 800 million years old.

But life isn't inherently intelligent, at least not enough so that we have to worry about microbes building nukes. It wasn't until about half a billion years ago that life exploded in diversity, and multicellular creatures became commonplace. We can't explain what took so long, so lets assume it takes about 3 billion years for life to become multicellular. Adding a billion years for life to form in the first place, you have a little under 4 billion years for life to form, and evolve into multicellular creatures.

It took less than 100 million years from this point for life to colonise the entire planet. Within 50 million years, vertebrates with jaws and limbs populated the Earth.

Because evolution is driven by environment, the next 300 million years can be considered as largely irrelevant. Under other local conditions, things would never have happened as they did. The Earth was very hot and dry, which paved the way for the rise of reptiles and then dinosaurs.

Now there's no way to prove whether or not any of the species around back then became intelligent. All we can say for sure is that even if they acquired intelligence, they never got as far as nuclear technology before they were wiped out. For the sake of being overly conservative, lets assume they couldn't have been intelligent. But as I point out, that really doesn't matter. If land masses had been located in more favourable locations, it very well could have been mammals that rose up first. And we know mammals can be intelligent.

So lets skip 300 million years ahead to the rise of mammals. It took less than 65 million years to go from little rodents to rocket launching humans. In fact, 99% of human advancement took place in a 200 year period, which isn't even measurable on a universal scale. In half of a fraction of a second we went from berry picking occasional hunters to the dominant species, blowing up nukes and sending things into space. Moore's law says that advancement will double every ten or so years, and to a large extent that has proven true.

So the rise of intelligence happens extremely quickly, once it happens.

So now lets look at all the figures. The first life was possible 13 billion years ago. Intelligent life possibly takes as much as 4 billion years. So the first intelligent life in the universe was possible 9 billion years ago.

So how long would it take to travel here? Well the first step is getting out of your own solar system, and your sun works against you. New Horizons had the fastest launch speed of any probe yet launched, yet both Voyager probes are currently moving faster because the sun slowed NH down so much, and it couldn't get slingshot gravity boosts from any outer planet after Jupiter. The record setting speeds belong to probes sent towards the sun, not away from it. That was about 241,000 km/h. At that speed it would take 1.6 billion years to travel a light year. A probe planned for launch in 2018 is expected to hit 724,000 km/h, which would reduce the travel time for a lightyear by a factor of 3. 1.6 billion years turns into 533 million years. Since the travel time is so long, one would likely use ion technology instead of chemical technology. Acceleration would suffer as a result, but top speed would be increased by a good 10x over. Suddenly a 1.6 billion year journey has been reduced to 53 million years. And we haven't even been going to space for a century. There's no way to predict how fast we will be able to go in 50 or a hundred more years, even ignoring any wormhole or faster-than-light technologies.

But for the sake of this bs we'll limit ourselves to 53 million years per lightyear.

Buit from this I can't determine if you actually think there are Aleins from another planet present here on this planet. What you're telling me is you know the perspectives and possiblities--but that dosen't put Mr. alein on this planet. Yes- I do know that the universe is vast---hence the problem. My Alein isn't here, and can't get here under present circumstances at present--thart we know of. How would your Alein get here--by what means, what manner of space craft and whats it's capabilities. If it'scorrect that one cannot travel the speed of light then that can't be used. I do understand warp drives---but thats a theory and has no explanation (that I know of) how to make that work. Ay this time it's a matter of "if" one could produce it. Then, if you're going to say that they "could have" developed a warp drive  that still does,t put an alein on planet Earth.

Now, your time and events from the big bang forward are "ifs". And at the end you came up with 170 light years to use. I can do the same and come up with a billion if I want to, but--if this and if that. If you come up with the warp drive how are you going to avoid celestial objects. You can use a warp drive "if" you don't smash into any objects. I can make anything work just as well as you can. Your information from the big bang onward is impressive, yes, and a good work. But, are you sure it's not just what you want it to be. I'm taking it thet you took that into account and avoided fancey whims.

You total to 170 light years. That's not a walk in the park,as I'm sure you know. BUT, how will you personaly traverse that (if you figures are rasonalby correct)with a space craft without killing yourself. OK, so now here we go--the aleins "could have" evolved supersmart", right. I don't mean that to be a negative toward you but we,re going back to tha OP aren't we. Which is, how da duece did they get here if they did. Now, "if" they evolved super smart that solves everything. Super5 Smart is the common way (common denominader) to make the aleins capable of anything.  (get my drift).

To traverse the 170 light years would you have refueling along the way---what is the fuel goi9ng to be etc etc etc. Theoretically without any of these problems one can go any where theoretically---but in actual practice---one is not going anywhere.

What you have to do now is--put yourself in a space craft and figure everything  from there. You are going to find insurmountable problems figuring out how you are going to traverse that distance of 170 light years, "if" your figures are correct.

OK, lets look at iwbieks worm hole. (no offense intended iw) That'll work --sometimes. but that only "if" one can go through a wormhole and come out the other side alive.  Going through a worm hole is strictly an "if one can/could" deal. And one can't. A wormholeas I understand it, works in conjuction with a black hole. I don't know for sure but I have a hunch that one won't survive it. Flesh blood and bone are not compatable with a black hole as I understand it anyway. 

It all depends upon "If" all iof thease "ifs" are overcome. Until then your alien may be ableto get here ot ever got here, but mine didn't and can't., and I don't mean this in an offensive manner.

haven't come up with a single thing that I haven't encountered at some time in my life. There's free hydrogen everywhere or most everywhere in space. One can collect the hydrogen and use it for fuel. But,it's so sparse it's an imparctical concept. There's not enough of it, It requires coasting long enough with collectors to get enough to make anoither engine start. You'll never collect enough to put on the brakes when needed. How many life time do you suppose it would take to go the 170 light years with convental engines--and that's all you can depend on. Collect it on the way=no way. On the first count your ship would have to be the size of a mini planet. You would have to grow plants for food---how much dirt would you have to take along---oh---hydroponics right. no,thats worse then dirt. How about gravity--how areyou going to keep all that dirt in one palce. How about internal atmosphric filters---got any---and where are you going to stop over to get some new ones. The process has to be done by building outward from the home planet establishing way stations so you can get back--(unless you're not going back-which you're not becasue you're going to be dead--from quite a number of causes.

I'm not new at this by any means. I even came up with---yup-that's right---rowing across the distance when there's not enough sunlight---not like rowing a boat, but using the energy of excersize machines to drive thrusters, people power---but--no good---ya have to feed your people something to come up with the current for the thrusters,right. The distance covered is equal to the time you run out of food and then----you take it from here. Let's see your space craft, describe this thing of yours. collectin fuel along the way isn't going to get you there. Went over that years ago and it don't work. You're telling ME to do the math---I've alrady done that in my teens. what you have as a proposal that will NOT work. been there- thought of that. I wasn't born yesterday. It's plain to see--you are a victim as described in the OP Si Fi fantasy. Come up with a ship that can span 170 light years travel.---You can't.

Have you invented a reaction thruster yet. I'll bet not, I did. Ever heard of a unidirectional thruster, I'll bet not. neither works very well so they're out. How about useing the weight of the supplies on borad for reactive thrust, I'll be you haven't thought of it or even heard of it. Well. it works but not well enough. What happens wheb the suplies are gone---no thrust, not a good idea. What can you come up with--be inventive. Lets seeit. I'll bet i aready thought of it or seen it.  Forget gatering fuel along the way-there isn't any in 170 light years that could easily be found or encountered.

The insurmountable problem is---you can't travel the speed of light. And being so you're going no where becasue the distances require it ot youi die along the way.

Your alein can get here---yes--if you idea works. If

Edit: Vastet's reply is better, I'm just going to eat some popcorn.

^ Idiot doesn't even understand the basic physics of a lever. Something humanity completely conquered so long ago we don't even know who came up with it.

Know what? You're wilfully incapable of learning anything. And you're stupid enough to think you can escape a gravity well without fuel, as well as thinking that doing so would somehow be more effective than actually using an engine that uses fuel. You can't get anything right.

 What kind of alien capable of space travel would steer by using a viewing port? Nice appeal to an anonymous authority that appears to only be in your head. Wormholes aren't some random made up theory, they are predicted phenomena based on the mathematics on General Relativity. If wormholes can't exist, then the theory of general relativity is flawed. Math can be quite useful to make accurate predictions, like how it was proven the earth was round and the circumference was measured long before anyone actually "proved" it by traveling all the way around.

I used the glass port as an example of what happens, over distance and time, the damage caused by even small particles. No,I would not use a glass window on a space craft.  The same will happen to lenses on outboard cameras. Your making things up to find fault. There isn't any to find.

I did not say a wornhole is impossible, I said--it is highly unlikely any are existing. It would be a phenomenon that appears and dissapates, and would be forming and deforming, and would be able to do so quite rapidly. Now mind this, I'm not saying a wormhole (nippin your next critisim in the bud) is like a tornado, here now, gone in a moment. The internal radiation would be to high for a physical body to pass through unharmed. Yup,I know, you'd have special sheilding---been there heard that idea many times. Not gonna happen. Being in a wormhole when it suddenly dissapates put you where. And, how do you know when it will dissapate. I know Einstien did the math, I say he's right, not that he needs my approval, he the go to guy.

find find a way of getting past space debris. 1 soccer ball size chunck and you ship is gone. At 40,000 mph you won't see it and, and. everything you need to know is online, and everything I present is also on line.Your Alien is DOA, mine is well and safe on his home planet lauphing at you. he has a dirct link to the White House and is informed of everything goping on  on planet earth. He runs the CIA, NSA, BATF, FBI, MYEYE, and PIEEYE. Har har har har. BTW a message form Porf M. There'll be no need to wish you good luck on your journey, you won't have any.

i said it could be something like a wormhole, not necessarily a wormhole. like in clarke's books: the gateway monoliths (like the one on titan in the first odyssey book) aren't necessarily wormholes; they're just some form of technology that humans cannot yet comprehend. he also wrote about "warp drive" in the second rama book, which is genuine faster-than-light travel without a "cheat" like a wormhole-like gateway (albeit the journeys still took decades), and clarke made it a point not to write about technology that was utterly fantastic.

local and low speed, and the area they mostly operat in is known---It's Chance deal. On the short run all is well. Light yrars down the way it'll hit something. And you couldn't figure this out for your self. I considr ower solar system "local". You're not saying that it'll never collide with anything--are you ??????? Well great guns man,, there's oodles of planets. stars, asteroids, commets debri of all sizes and types out there, and it's in all direction.  It's all a matter of time and distance of travel.

How about the foam chunck that caused the destruction of a space shuttle. Did you take into accounts the possible flaws in design that can come about. I (get this) knew that was going to happen long before it did. How in the world can a space craft take off with ice chunks falling off. I even pointed that out to my son at the time. But it wasn't the ice--it was a peice of foam insulation. And then to watch those take offs time after time and see the same thing. I told my Sonny--it's only a matter of time and circumstance.

Now, can you transter that to space travel and develop some inkling of an idea of what I'm telling you. Yeah right, you're going to see when approaching a soccer ball to golf size, dust cloud objects--you're going to avoid them by sight alone. No you're not, there's also side impacts to consider. Space travel is not going out and cranking over the engine for a trip to Walmart planet for a shopping spree.

I'm making shit up?!?!? Your the one who threw the glass port in there and trying to find problems why an alien race with millions of years of technological advancement on us couldn't possibly have traveled past Earth in the last 9 billion years. I am making absolutely zero knowledge claims. I don't know and don't pretend to know what any alien race may or may not be capable of. I am quite confident that they are capable of things we can't imagine and that perhaps some things that seem possible to us now actually are impossible. From our tiny rock, we should be smart enough to realize our perspective sucks and we don't know shit- our species has been in this position before. Yet you come around an make positive claims about what is or is not possible. I'm quite confident that 1,000 years ago you would have been making the same confident assertions regarding flight, locomotion, submarines and any number of innovations we enjoy on a daily basis. Many assholes made such anti-knowledge assertions all along and get proven wrong every time. Yet after thousands of years of evidence, humans still pretend that right now we finally know everything.  

 

I'll tell Stephen Hawking to stop wasting his time with the theories then. Obviously you have amazing amounts of knowledge about a phenomena we haven't had a chance to observe yet.