No, I am not saying that God kills people because they will die later. What I wrote was aimed at the first post which says that God has killed everyone and Satan is the “good” guy.

 

Your analogy was well written but does not apply to God. You see, you are talking as if God is a man like us. If I decided to blow myself up and take you with me because you are an atheist (as an extremist Muslim would) I am committing murder. Why? Because I am just as guilty as you are. I have no right to choose whether you should live or die because I have committed the same sin (Atheism is transgression of the First and Second Commandments) as you have. We are both guilty before the God I might claim I am serving when I blow myself up.

 

Second, the place in the Bible from which you are drawing is the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, Jesus Christ had not come to die yet. So, all men stood before God as totally responsible for their actions and without hope for salvation apart from total obedience to the Laws of God.

 

When you talk about the first dog biting the “chosen” dog, the second dog that was fornicating, and the third dog that looked back at his friend, you talk about how unfair God is for punishing people for actions which in your eyes “aren’t that bad”.

 

My question is this, IF, bear with me, IF God does exist and IF He did all the things the Bible says He did (Create the world, create us, die on the Cross etc.) and IF He is all the things the Bible says He is, wouldn’t it make sense that He punishes us?

 

Look at it this way.

 

Is a judge who sends a man to the electric chair just because the man killed someone, evil? No. He is just. Does a just judge impose greater punishments on those who aren’t his family? No. He punishes both equally.

 

God has shown us time and time again that He is the same way.

 

When God “orders his specially chosen dogs to tear to pieces the dog who did the biting” He is being just. The people who “bit God’s dogs” did great evils and attacked God’s children. They wanted to punish them for worshipping and serving God. They wanted to conquer them and steal the wealth God gave them or take them as slaves. They attacked God’s kids and, in turn, attacked their Father, God. The “offending dogs” REFUSED to become God’s kids. God protected His family. He gave those “dogs” every chance to get right. But they didn’t.

 

And, His method of destroying them was right. God sees all sin as it is, not as we would LIKE HIM to see it.

 

You may think nothing of spreading lies about someone to get back at them, but to God it is as evil as if you cut them up with a knife. God grants you what you give. You reap what you sow, What goes around comes around, and so on.

 

You speak of how unfair God is yet you are looking at His actions from your position of moral relativism instead of cutting Him some slack.

 

YOU are the one being “intolerant and narrow minded” (as other atheists have said to Christians), not God or myself. I at least gave Atheism a chance; you haven’t given God the time of day.

 

Here is another question, why is it wrong to kill men, women and children by dashing them against the rocks, cutting them up or tearing them apart?

 

Note I AM NOT saying that these actions are okay, I just want you to explain to me why they are wrong.

 

By the way, God DID RAIN DOWN HEART ATTACKS. He struck a couple down when they lied to Him and tried to steal. Their names were Ananias and Sapphira .

 

With Christ,

EGWG

 

Holy crap! This thread has been going on forever. 

Why not?

Guilt?

Cough, the first amendment is, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Atheists don't follow any gods so they didn't break the first commandment.

The second amendment is, from New International Version, "You shall not make for yourself in the form of anything in the heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."  

I actually like the second amendment because it's a perfect example of how much of a fucking narcissistic lunatic God is.

But, let's see.

"You shall not make for yourself in the form of anything in the heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."

If this implies something for me to worship, then, no, I did not break the second commandment. However, if it simply implies making a replica of anything, then we're all going to hell.

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them."

Nope, I don't do that.

"for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."   

Oh, really?

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does NOT envy, it does NOT boast, it is NOT proud. It is NOT rude, it is NOT self-seeking, it is NOT easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs." 1 Corinthians 13:4-5

"Beloved, let us LOVE one another: for love is of God; and every one who loves is born of God, and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is LOVE." 1 John 4:7-8

Anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Leviticus 24:16

And I will harden the Pharoah's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharoah and all his army and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord. Exodus 14:4

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Um, we know.

So, there's nothing wrong with the New Testament? LMAO. 

"Without hope for salvation" they all went to hell.

-working on Sunday

-purifying your house with mildew the wrong way

-accidentally offering the wrong sacrifice

-eating shellfish

IF Pastafarisnism is true, then it would make sense for us to stop eating Alfredo.

IF my body is infested with thetans, then it would make sense for me to pay $200,000 to Scientology to help me remove them. 

The bottom line is, anything will make sense if you start with the assumption that it is true, instead of starting from a neutral position and being as open-minded as possible.

God told the Israelites to kill "everything that breathes," but to keep all the virgins so they can use them as sex slaves. 

The reason you feel that there is something inherently wrong with this scenario is not because God is "beyond your comprehension" or "Satan is tempting you." You don't have to make up 1,000,000 rationalizations for those verses from Deuteronomy. There is a perfectly logical explanation. The Bible was compiled by liars, lunatics and medieval rulers. It's bullshit. 

The reason industrial nations have complex court systems with lawyers, juries, and many rights for the accused is because this is just. God is not just. The judge in the courtroom is not God. The judge does not control EVERYTHING because that would be ridiculous.  

A judge that stones anyone he wants and sends people to life imprisonment for weird, mundane things like working on Sunday and cooking a goat in its mother's milk is not just. He's insane. 

 

When somebody in my family says something negative about me, I shrug it off and love them anyways. I don't cut their thumbs off and smite them down with holy fire. I don't do this because I am rational. 

Yes, we're all just dogs aren't we. Accept, if we're God's dogs, we're all powerful, and we can feel morally superior raping 32,000 virgins. On the other hand, if we're not God's dogs, we're automatically evil and we're going to be tortured in a pit of lava for all eternity.  

Can't you back up one even one of your claims? What is this? Am I going to pity the Israelites? The Israelites did all of these things.

"They wanted to punish them for worshipping and serving God."

For worshiping other Gods. Check.

"They wanted to conquer them and steal the wealth God gave them or take them as slaves."

Conquer land. Check.

Steal wealth. Check.

Enslaving virgins. Check.

The people in the Bible never existed. 

The flood was a great way of protecting his family.

"Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the Lord, He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you."

Stoning, burning, drowning, stabbing, hanging, torturing, eaten by lions, disease,.........

There is no evidence that God exists.

If he does exist, he is inconsistent on morality. 

Yup, Bible views all sins as the same. Why don't you?

Eating shellfish=global infanticide?

Why don't you? Because it's insane!

I'm looking at God from REALITY. Do you know what REALITY is? 

Cut him some slack? Why don't you cut Allah some slack? Why don't you cut Buddha some slack? Ditto, because they're not real.  

More hypocrisy. Many of us used to be Christians.

I personally went to many different churches looking for the truth.

Oh no, not this again. 

First of all, God did all of these things. 

And, the answer would be I don't know. Well, we have some guesses, but we can't say for sure yet. The need for it might have evolved from society.

Secularism doesn't have a straight answer to this question because secularism is honest. When we haven't found the answer to something yet, we don't invent imaginary bearded men in the sky to make ourselves more comfortable.

All we need to know is that morality is inherent within us because it's certainly not in any religion.

Ah, God causes heart attacks. This is truly a perfect conclusion to your rant.

 

 

I pretty much quoted your entire post. What have you stated that I refused look at? 

Go where? Ponder the question of the existence of the Christian God?

Bleh, save this appeal for the emotionally vulnerable.  

Sure, here you go.

"Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army - the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds - who returned from the battle."

"Have you allowed the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the Lord in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the Lord's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31:15-18

Reason 1) Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. -Marcus Aurelius 

Reason 2) "Love is patient, love is kind. It does NOT envy, it does NOT boast, it is NOT proud. It is NOT rude, it is NOT self-seeking, it is NOT easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs." 1 Corinthians 13:4-5

 

"Beloved, let us LOVE one another: for love is of God; and every one who loves is born of God, and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is LOVE." 1 John 4:7-8

"You shall not make for yourself in the form of anything in the heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments." Exodus 20:4-6 

Anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Leviticus 24:16

And I will harden the Pharoah's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharoah and all his army and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord. Exodus 14:4

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Reason 3: Genesis states that God made two great lights. One for the day, one for the night. This is because the writers of the Bible didn't know that the moon doesn't produce light, but reflects the light of the sun.

Reason 4: One the third day, God produced vegetation. Then, on the sixth day, he made Adam and Eve. However, Genesis then contradicts itself and says that God made Adam before there were any "shrubs" or "plant." Then, it emphasizes that God made Adam first, and when Adam couldn't find a suitable helper, God put him into a deep sleep and took one of his ribs to make Even. But, in 27, it already implied that God made Adam and Eve at the same time.

Reason 5: God curses the snake by taking away its legs. Ha, a snake with long legs would never be able to survive. The snake as a species is very well adapted to its environment partly because of the fact that it crawls on its belly. This is obviously a product of evolution.

Reason 6: "But the Lord God called to the man, "Where are you?"

What is this? Self-imposed amnesia? Hide and seek? The omnipotent, omniscient Creator of the universe didn't know that Adam would eat the fruit? He doesn't even know where Adam is hiding?

Reason 7: Genesis is an internally inconsistent argument. God created Adam and Eve, whom didn't know the difference between right and wrong. If they don't know the difference between right and wrong, then why would eating the fruit be the "wrong" thing to do? God is punishing them for not having something that God didn't give them in the first place. 

Reason 8: "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Adam and Even did NOT die. God lied.

Reason 9: Snakes can't talk.

Reason 10: God inflicts all women with terrible pain during child birth because Eve ate a piece of fruit.

Reason 11: "Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?" Again, if God already knows the answer, then why is He asking the question? If He doesn't know the answer, then he's not all-knowing.

Reason 12: It's impossible to fit all the animals on the ark.

Reason 13: An animal is an animal. Why are some of them are "unclean?" What does this mean?

Reason 14: The amount of water that it would take to cover the entire Earth up to the highest mountain is several times the amount of water that even exists on Earth. Mixing freshwater and saltwater for that long would have killed most species of fish. etc.

Reason 15: The first humans would have had to marry their brothers, sisters, parents, uncles, cousins. Realistically, a gene pool of this size can't possibly survive.

Reason 16: A rainbow is a reminder of the covenant. God makes rainbows.

Reason 17: You cannot build a brick tower to heaven.

Reason 18: The writers invented a fable to explain why there are people all over the Earth that speak different languages. God felt threatened by the people in Shinar, so he confused their language and scattered them over the Earth.

Shall I continue? 

Sure.

  

 

Of course not, you were just calling me intolerant and narrow-minded because I don't follow your imaginary friend. 

A truce? What does this mean? That we're going to stop debating? Obviously not. Does this mean that we're going to respect each other? 

I will try to control my language, but I would still prefer to respect people after they have proven that they deserve my respect.  

OMG !!!  ...As a 15 year old, this person understands God's work !!!!!.  He/she wrote

"In order for to you to understand God's work first you must believe...."

Again I ask.  Who's mind has gone to waste?  

 The Simple reason why God killed 2,270,365+ is that they were dumb Atheists thats why! 

 

For eg. I am a gardener I am pruning my garden, sometimes I will pluck away every moth eaten leaf or if necessary uproot an infected plant for the good of the garden, as a whole.

 

So God, just wiped out people who were corrupted and were corrupting others. He thought it is best to wipe out certain clan of people, because they were very corrupted.

 

When God created everything it was perfect, it was Good Gen 1:13 tells us all that He created was Good! And He gave man the free will to choose life and death. Man choose death.  He rebelled against God! Choose to side with the rebel leader Lucifer (Satan, the fallen Angel) Sin came into this world, Sin is nothing but corruption, Murder, human sacrifice, sexual immorality, greed, hatred, selfishness, Jealousy, mutilating own self with drugs, blood sports, theft, lying, dishonesty, backbiting, cunningness, pride and ect…. All these were practiced by men. (Do you expect God to appreciate that?)

 

If I was God, I would have wiped the whole human race for Good, long before, I can’t tolerate to see my creation decay in sin. But God is longsuffering…. Even though man was corrupted, even thou he denied God, and even thou man is worthy to be terminated as a whole, His heart aced within Himself, He waited for a man to come to Him, (Not all are going to come) But perhaps someone might come to Him. Someone from this corrupted human race might seek Him,

And yes some did seek God, And that someone is so precious in His sight! He wants that precious jewel! that someone who seeks Him against all odds and human reasoning. Therefore God swore to Himself that He would do anything redeem it.

 

Redeem it from the Fallen Angel Lucifer! (Heaven is at war! Still at war!) Man has fallen into the hands of Lucifer and His Angels. Even though God is all powerful, He is righteous, He will just come and bash satan and to redeem man!

because of His own righteousness, and because of His goodness, He has not destroyed Satan yet! But to redeem man God will do anything! He came down to the level of contesting with the devil.

 

The devil said, come down as man, I challenge you!  Can you withstand my sin? My temptations? Come down God let have a fair game! This Good God, came down as man (Jesus), suffered poverty, temptations, trails, shame, reproach and pain. Ultimately gave His own life, to redeem man. For every mans sin! For his every corruption, He took the punishment upon himself. And He redeemed him.

 

Therefore, who is precious in His sight? Those who seek Him. As far as those who do not seek Him or want Him or curse Him, in the eyes of God, they are as good as dead! Even if thou they are alive it means nothing to Him. A day will come, their own sins will judge them! Their own wickedness will raise up and condemn them!

God is life, He will depart from them…. When life departs, death enters! Not bodily death,  I am speaking about totally separation from God, eternally….. Such a soul is Lost!

 

 

Check your Bible myths. Most were either pagans or disobedient Jews.

  

Yeah even babies that couldn't speak or walk were corrupt and evil.

If all was so perfect how did the snake or if you think Satan was the snake, Satan  manage to be less than perfect?

Apparently, as God boasts in Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Good thing god is a myth and you aren't the incorporation of the myth in the real world.

Guess the god can violate his own commandments by swearing.

Exactly where is this war in heaven in your biblical mythology? Not the future war in Revelation, but rather the supposed war when Lucifer and his angels went against the warmonger god Yahweh and were cast from heaven?

Perhaps he still needs his prosecutor angel.

And it's on to NT myths. Did you ever wonder if Satan was so cunning and tricky why he would risk immediate eradication by directly confronting a part of the god? This god could instantly remove Satan from reality as if he never existed and so he's playing games with part of him/her/it?

But what if Thor or Zeus is the real god. Or even worse, the Muslim version Allah. You're screwed then.

Death returns a person to the state from whence they came, not existing. Can you produce a photo of this soul thing?

So if your mom died, your sister, your brother, your best friend, that'd be okay?

 

Since humans live only so long and death is part of life it is the way it is. 

Fascinating thread, but I have yet to see any assertion of an error in the Bible in it.

God told the Prophet Isaiah, I form the light, and create darkness:  I make peace, and create evil:  I the LORD do all these things.  Isaiah 45:7  So God created death as much as He created life.  But the parties responsible for human death are Adam and Eve.  God had meant us to be immortal (which, for the Saved, in a sense we are), but Adam and Eve screwed it up at least for our existence on Earth:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.  Genesis 2:17

 

I can't speak for the poster, but Jesus said, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.

Yes.

Yes.

Not if we're invaded by babies.  The Bible tells us not to murder, it doesn't say we cannot defend ourselves.  Jesus told us to turn the other cheek, but, after that, we're fresh out of cheeks to turn.

Same answer as above.

You seem very good at putting words in other people's mouths.

If by "naturally," you mean "by a moron only," then yes.

And speaking of spiritually motivated carnage:  

   "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God.

   They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground,

   their pregnant women ripped open."   Hosea 13:16

 

 

Gee, who wouldn't worship a god who behaves like that ?      

"Uh, yeah God..sorry to make you angry,....of course I love  you the most....now put the knife down, please..."  

   

So he needs to buy a Seiko then he'd know what time it was.

Welcome to the forum.  Wow, looks like new members are being treated to huge avatars...

 

Whether or not the universe has a beginning according to the big bang theory really depends on how you define beginning.  The big bang postulates a change from a small hot universe (too hot to even support matter) to the expanding and cooling universe as we know it now.  Nowhere does this imply a literal beginning to physical existence.

We have no means of observing before a certain point in the history of our current universe, so the logical conclusion is that we simply don't know.  "I don't know" is an acceptable stance, as it leaves us open to learning, unlike clinging to a presupposition such as a god.

btw, you may want to take a few minutes to look up what logic actually is.  Along with "random" and "theory", "logic" is one of the most misused words.

 

Sorry about the avatar size, without my glasses that fine print went unnoticed.  Hopefully it is corrected.

 

I am well aware of the meaning of the word logic - and agree that there is a tendency to misuse/misunderstand it.

Maybe a better term for me to have used would be deductive reasoning.

I don't care to argue whether the "big bang" or any other theory is the correct definition of the beginning....just that there is, without a doubt, a beginning.

Admittedly, I DON'T claim to know HOW the universe came to be, or when it began - but through deductive reasoning, with the information available, I am inclined to come to the presupposition that there very well may be a creator.  I disagree that to presuppose God to be that creator closes the mind to learning.  Why would it?

It is a presupposition to declare that Christians cling to God and don't want to learn about the universe they live in.  It may be true of some, but not all. 

It is also a presupposition that there is no creator.  Obviously we cannot scientifically know this without a doubt, one way or another.

I view Science as a tool used to gain knowledge about the natural, observable world.  I don't believe it's use is not limited to only those who don't believe in a creator, but by all who want to know about the world around them, who possess the knowledge and skill needed to correctly use that tool effectively. Those using science to gain knowledge have a responsibility to convey that knowledge in an honest and truthful manner, no matter what their presuppositions are.  Christians are not the only people who have presuppositions, afterall.

How did you come to this conclusion?

My position on god, gods, and\or mythological deities is simple non belief.  I do not believe in its\their existence or its\their non-existence.  I have no reason to so much as suspect that one or more of them are real.  I carry no burden of proof.

  Not really, it's been observed in much of history that religions stifled free though and scientific progress, and I'm not just talking about Christianity, as there are many religions who think their god is just as real as Christians think their god is.  If you are an exception, good for you.

 

Edit:  Oops sorry, I just realized that this is totally the wrong place for this discussion.

Abortion is not murder. Yes this is the one life we get, but it is the choice of the mother whether or not she wants to spend her life tending to a child that was the product of rape, for example. Furthermore, human embryos have a tail that measures about one-sixth of the size of the embryo itself. Is this the example you wish to give of god's perfect creation? Is that him as the alpha?

Your examples of the "finely tuned universe" as proof of god have all been refuted  before, there's no need to do it again. Although I would point out that this perfect nature on earth that you describe is mostly inhospitable to man. Does that sound like a planet created especially for us? And a lot of us do believe the Big Bang is a solid theory for the expansion of the universe, we just don't see fit to add unnecessary factors like god.

As far as the god of kindness and love as compared to other gods for which you cite examples of human sacrifice, what about people like Matthew Shephard or Dr. John Britton and his assistant James Barrett who were killed in the name of your god?

Are you seriously going to start a conversation about contradictions in philosophy? Christians practically invented that.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure it's humans that give life to our children. We create them, nurse them, deliver them, and raise them. Not god. Also, Adam and Eve never existed, just want to put that out there. The first humans were from the African savannah, not Mesopotamia. 

The reason is, we are interested in science, and i think that chistianity is a tad larger influence on our culture than your silly monster argument. and as for us being goths, i  havnt seen one goth like person arguing this point on here, i am far from a hate everything loser, i love the world, you are crazy.

Depends on the theist, many Christians believed it to be an honor to die for their faith. They knew why they were dying and they knew who they were dying for. You guys think we believers are fools who have lost hope and clinging to the last thread of a future we can find. Those who truly believe have their proof, they have seen the work of their father, in the flesh, and in the spirit, and to those, these conversations are pitiful reminders of our wasted time resisting the true freedom that has been offered. I have no power to convince anybody, you will have to see the truth with your own eyes or your own spirit. I assure you, none who have truly come to him have been disappointed.      

You cannot argue that there is no GOD because bad things happen, many find happiness after the loss of certain  things. Suppose every human lived in a ten-thousand sq foot home and a new car every year. One day he is forced to leave and live in card board box. People are outraged at the suffering this man must endure, but tells these people to leave him alone, he has discovered his freedom. Now I'm not camparing this to harming a child, but suffering can be the instrument of growth and change. This world is already fallen and evil is allowed to continue on the earth, so the question is where is not where is GOD, but why are we still here?  If you believe anyone ever gets away such things, then I don't believe you understand the nature of GOD, these people will suffer on this earth and more importantly, be judged.

Yes, the 9/11 hijackers felt honored to die for Allah. So too did the Crusaders dying to save the Holy land from infidel Muslims. Those that were doing so in pursuit of God's will as propagated to them by the popes. Others did so in pursuit of booty and riches, probably more honorable, at least they got something out of the deal.

I think people who cast away their life for a god that is not real are deluded, not fools. They do perform foolish acts however. I'm aware of what proof you think you have, but it doesn't hold up in the harsh light of reality. Unless you have something I've never seen or heard about, if so lay it on the lab table.

 God is not killing anyone.. he is taking back his creatures to Him. It's so simple. If anyone understands it :p 

peace out~ 

Free domain registration

Two responses:

1. It is incorrect to think that God's knowledge of the future means he CONTROLS every future choice. As CS Lewis explained through Screwtape in The Screwtape Letters- God doesn't see the future as we do, waiting for it to arrive as one trapped with in time. He sees it as part of his unbound NOW. And of course, to see a man do something is NOT the same as to MAKE him do it. (If you've not read the Screwtape letters, I recommend it- also, there is a wonderful audio dramatization with Andy Serkis as Screwtape. http://www.screwtape.com/)

2. I think Asimov is almost right. There is nothing in all the Bible nor Christianity which would say God approves of liars and hypocrites abusing his name by pretending to be his servants and using his name. The whole New Testament reserves harsh language for such people. My only question is in the idea of an honest Atheist. What would that mean? One for whom purely intellectual causes have driven him from belief in God? C.S. Lewis used to be one of those, if I understand him correctly. As was Josh Mc Dowell, Lee Stroble, and William Lane Craig. If I were you, I’d honestly look into their stories and see what they learned.

I like how you say that these people "choose" to violate god. Then sugar whatever says that god know the future and it's set in stone. So there's no chose to be made. Can the two of you can get on the same page may it would be easier to understand your insane positions.

Rook, this is in  response to your post about hitler etc, Very good work! I know this was a long time ago but I just read it and am blown away by the evidence. I have copied some of this down for my own reference. Great work. My wife has bought this up before so now we can research it together.

 

Ed

Theistic flawgic