Rational Response Squad: Amateur “Professional Atheists” with No Education [Trollville]
Offline I’ve got a bone to pick with our generation of outspoken atheists, particularly the Rational Response Squad and their ilk.
Back to School, staring Rabidape
On August 20th “Rabidape” V-logged on youtube, discussing his education and his desire to “go back to school.” As it turns out, this particular Rational Responder has an associate’s degree in an obscure artistic field. Yet he speaks on issues including biology, cosmology, philosophy, and theology.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0sTAtKQ2HYE
Now this isn’t a dig at Rabidape; I happen to like him. I subscribe to his videos and enjoy his arguments. A few of his V-logs are in my favorites. (Unfortunately the videos of his scrotum and him taking bong hits did not make the cut.)
I commend Rabidape for going back to school, if he does follow through with those plans. I’d actually like to pick up another degree or two. In fact, I’d like to continue my education until the day I die.
After watching Rabidape’s video, the wheels started turning: What exactly are the credentials of the Rational Response Squad? What have they done professionally?
The Core Responders: Uneducated and it Shows
This letter is directed at Brian Sapient, Rook Hawkins, Yellow#5, and Kellym316. What are your credentials? What degrees have you earned? What do you “do” for a living? From your website and myspace pages, there appears to be two degrees between the four of you, both of which belong to Yellow#5. Between the other three, we have “some college.”
And what’s with the names? I feel like I’m in a yahoo chat room.
What do you do?
Do any of you actually earn an income? Or do you all sit around in that house with time split between planning your attack on young earth creationist morons and clicking “refresh” on this message board all day?
And please, be honest, that anon donor who gave you the house was Sapient's dad, wasn’t it? Brian Flemming maybe?
Maybe this is too harsh. Maybe you’re getting an education now. I hear that between vlogs “Rook” is plagiarizing his way through college.
From your website I see that Sapient has “too many hats to mention.” Wow. Jack of all trades and a master of nothing? Why not start with earned degrees?
For example, the user cdk007 on youtube lists his credentials:
“High School Diploma
Associates Degree Chemistry
Associates Degree Physics (Astro-physics)
Bachelors Degree Botany
Masters Degree Biology
Ph.D. Molecular Neuroscience”
http://youtube.com/user/cdk007
Compare yourselves to Professionals
Now, RRS, compare yourselves to Richard Carrier, Richard Dawkins, or Victor Stenger. Of these three infidels, we have multiple PhDs, years of collegiate teaching experience, and several published books. These adults actually know what they’re talking about. They have produced original material and they are respected authorities. Where were these guys at your age, Brian Sapient?
On a side note, I’m not the biggest fan of Richard Dawkins either. But he knows more than you Rational Responders and Dawkins appeared both put off and bored during your interviews of him. It would not surprise me if he shared my opinion of your crew.
Intellectually Lazy
Do you Rational Responders actually know what it takes to find something out? Do you understand what it means to actually know something? I hear you regurgitating the best arguments all the time, but what have you ever brought to the table?
You may think that google searches and online classes are sufficient, but there is certainly something to be said about those who actually took the time to earn their degrees.
The Ugly Face of Atheism
Until you Rational Responders up your credentials and experience you will continue to come off like the loose change guys: You’re amateur, emotional, outspoken, and unprofessional.
Compare Brian Sapient and Rook to the Loose Change guys:
Them:
You:
Now I’m not a CT nut, but if you really believed that the government had a hand in 9-11, would you want Jason Bermas and Dylan Avery representing your position?
http://www.youtube.com/v/stVmEmJ666M
Again, I don’t accept these conspiracy theories, but you Rational Responders come across like them. And see how that kid gets all upset when the real scientist is talking? See his face? Brian has the same expression when Kirk holds up the crocoduck and bullfrog.
Brian Sapient:
Your myspace says 29 yet youtube says 32. Not that I care, but why two different ages? Why don’t you get some self respect and drop a couple pounds? And is Kellym69's bastard kid yours? If you two are together and the kid is yours biologically, why not get married? If it's not yours or she's a widow or something strange, forget I said anything.
I’m an Atheist
It’s not that I disagree with your position. I’m an atheist. In fact I agree that we should afford religious faith as little respect as possible. I agree with Sam Harris that the best antidote to this nonsense of faith is not persecution but relentless, unadulterated honest discourse. Respect faith for as long as you can take it seriously, as Pat Condell has promised to do.
But you people have the wrong approach. You need to get an education first and then go public. Right now you’re just some opinionated college dropouts.
Your Objections to My Criticism
Your knee-jerk reaction is going to give me the canned reply, “How can one be an expert in mythology?” This is basically the reply that Dawkins gives those who critique him on the grounds that he hasn’t researched theology enough to trash it.
That rebuttal doesn’t work here. First, Dawkins has a PhD. Second, I’m on your side and you’re making me look bad. Third, I believe that it really would help Dawkins’s arguments and his views if he had a PhD in philosophy.
My Advice to You
Either stop being unprofessional, outspoken, and arrogant or earn the right to be unprofessional, outspoken, and arrogant through life experience or education. Until then you’re making us look bad.
Examples of Real Scientists
Janna Levin on the Colbert Report:
http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/index.jhtml?ml_video=73483
(Answering the question, “Why is there something instead of nothing?”)
Or take a humility lesson from Richard Feyman and The Pleasure of Finding Things Out:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=DEEF16EB57AD2195
(Only the first 5 on that particular playlist are relevant.)
Real Atheists Debating
Eddie Tabash vs. Todd Frier:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4774031189077504683&q=Eddie+Tabash&total=14&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
Victor Stenger v. Hugh Ross:
http://www.thethingsthatmattermost.org/gallery08052007.htm
Gore Vidal "That's why I'm an atheist, not an agnostic."
http://youtube.com/watch?v=epn7QG9GLW0
In short, you need to be more more like Gore Vidal and less like that guy in the audience.
Sincerely,
Chris
Chris, I have reviewed your commentary and recognize that it is directed at the core members of the RRS; however, as you have impugned the site, I am sure you will understand that a wider reaction will be had. I suspect that you wrote your note with the intent of causing a frenzy of emotion, but my reaction was mostly one of disbelief and mild amusement. I will begin with my own education because you seem only to esteem individuals with degrees. I have a BA in History, French, and Philosophy, an LLM and an SJD. The expertise that earns my daily bread is estate planning and wealth transfer; so, I am an attorney by training and profession. With that formality out of the way, I would like to examine two of your arguments. You attack on the following issues: education and lifestyle. The latter is no one's affair. Your comments smack of a puerile mind, which falls back upon ad hominem attack when lacking substantial matters to discuss. I am astonished that you would delve into someone else's personal life to retrieve unimportant detritus in an attempt to strengthen an argument so that you won't "look bad." In debate, sir, this is the lowest form of discourse. Had you attempted it in my tier 1 law school alma maters, you would have been sharply reprimanded and suffered disciplinary action. That is how the civilized world views you comments on weight, paternity,and marital status. Now, having refused to partake in conversations about that which is unimportant to the cause of atheism and eschewing half of the rubbish you wrote, I turn to the question of education. Personally, I am mildly disappointed in you on this point. If I were to be so bold as to attack someone else's education in a public forum, I would be certain that my argumentation, grammar, syntax and spelling were utter perfection. We, after all, speak the Queen's English, and if we speak, we should endeavor to use it adroitly. You fail in all four areas. So, I suspect that whatever de minimus degree you hold is certified by a lesser institution of higher education. In fact, if you have a Bachelor's degree, I would be shocked. No one should be allowed to matriculate with your writing skills. (Nota bene: This is not an ad hominem attack; but rather, a discussion of the skills you have demonstrated.) In addition, you have completely ignored the possibility of the members being autodidactic. While I am trained in law, I have learned a great deal from my father, a professor of decision sciences and a chaotician about those fields. Further, I have friends who are employed in the fields of physics and astronomy who have been most generous with their time. However, by your argument, I should avoid discussion of these fields. In fact, by your reasoning, I should be restricted to discussions of Hegel, Second Empire France, and extra congressional executive agreements. Clearly, this reasoning is absurd. If we were restricted in our discussion by our formal education, I suspect that you would be limited to dental hygenics or air conditioning repair. In conclusion, your attack was too broad in its scope and too weak in its substance. Reflect further, educate yourself in the use of English, and return when you are prepared to launch a proper debate.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
I appreciated reading your perfectly articulated comments, and to continue, I wish to point out that while some of the core members are indeed autodidactic, some of them are surely the most well educated and articulated men I have ever encoutered, like the site neuropsychologist todangst.
And I would not be too shocked if your comment regarding this fellow's level of education turned out to be prophetic. And, being that this discussion is solely about boasts about degrees, I am quite happy to point out that my education all but certaintly utterly supersedes the OP's, being that, for going into molecular biology and medical research, I earned a combined MD/PhD.
Well, I cannot comment on the RRS core member's doings, I can only assume that judging by the immature, poorly written prose presented in the OP, that you are an adolescent (my apololgies, of course, to the more articulate adolescents among us), perhaps 14 or 15. Certainly, it would be most remarkable albeit horrifying to discover you have actually reached adulthood. Perhaps you have hitherto been living under a rock and hence are utterly unable to engage in civil discourse, in which we abstain from such flagrant insults and the reprimands for such are swift. At any rate, when I was your age, around 15, I already knew enough molecular and microbiology to rip asunder the arguments of any creationist. I was and still am versed in Eukaryotic sequestering, nucleosome packaging, proteonomics and cell molecular dynamics, intracellular vesicular traffic and biomolecular kinetics. If I may inquire if you were (or are) engaged in such activities during adolescence being that you have such an infatuation with formal education? If not...well, sir, all I can say is that hypocrisy is not tolerated on this site.
I will not lie, I have at times cited my opponent's lack of education pertaining to a certain field, but in those instances I have always been justified, since I only do so when my opponent is attempting to argue with me about, say, molecular biology or physics. And I will note, this is always in conjunction with a genuine, valid point and refutation. I would never, ever solely invoke formal education as an argument in and of itself, this is arrogant and foolish and an ad vericandum fallacy. So, if you have a genuine point of inquiry about real arguments propogated by the RRS, then by all means bring them forth and discuss them, but until then, kindly shut up. If, for example, we were having a discussion about philosophy, I would never be hardheaded enough to cite formal education, being that I am an autodidactic in this field. If my opponent is a professional philosopher, and does call me out on my lack of education in philosophy pertaining to a certain subject area, so long as, of course, it is in conjunction with a valid point, I am fine with that. What is unacceptable to me is the hardheaded rudeness which you are so willfully demonstrating.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
So atheist can only be highly educated elitist that publish books and teach at universities? The problem with our movement (atheism) in the past is that it excluded the majority of people that questioned god, only geniuses had the ability to question god’s existence. (I believe this borders the true Scotsman argument) RRS has done nothing more than open the discussion to everybody. This should be celebrated, not condoned. The free exchange of ideas of original and noted information should be passed on to all who wants to understand. Should we only have teachers in schools that have created through personal research everything they teach? You’re an elitist, and you feel that elitism is being belittled because more people have the same idea. Are you an atheist because you truly don't believe, or are you some sub-culture groupie that hates it when everyone starts listening to your music?
Man is the only animal in all of nature that cannot accept its own mortality.
Does it take a PHD to reject claims of Santa?
No, nor does it take a brain surgeon to reject the idea of a ghost knocking up a girl or human flesh surviving rigor mortis.
If it walks like a duck we call it what it is. Religion is nothing but fictional myth written by goat hearders and unfortunaly believed as fact.
Magic doesnt exist and as soon as humanity realizes that the better off the species will be.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Sorry Albert, because of your behavior your work has been rejected
Well, I'm happy to be in such good company. In solvent's ideal world, I'd never be able to say anything at all about atheism, the First Amendment, pornography, mythology, religion or virtually any subject discussed here, in light of my only "credentials" being from a technical school.
SOLVENT:
You're a snob, and I don't doubt I'm the only person without a formal education who's insulted by your dismissal of years of self-study in order to learn and grow.
The RRS wasn't meant to be a team of highbrow academic experts, but a banner under which those of us who are willing to be "aggressive" atheists could unite, and perhaps speak out on behalf of those who must remain in the closet for fear of retribution. You may not like their style, or their academic credentials, but that's YOUR problem.
I don't give a shit if Sapient is a convenience store clerk. He has done what he set out to do, which was to create a core group and a community that employs many of the same tactics and techniques that the fundies use to make their points of argument known, and to challenge purveyors of magical thinking to support their claims with evidence. I've yet to see anything even close from our theist friends (and foes).
If you don't like the RRS' style of argumentation, or their "unprofessionalism" that's fine. You don't have to come here, listen to or watch them. There are groups and sites that might be more to your liking; you should find them and work with their people. I daresay we atheists can use every person that's willing to stand up and demand their rights, whether they're a member of this community or any other.
As for myself, this is exactly the kind of place for me. I'm not alone in having no formal education, and I've yet to see one atheist talk down to another simply because one went to school and the other didn't. More often than not, those credentialed members who post here are extremely generous in sharing their knowledge and experience with others who don't have a background in whatever discipline the "expert" member does.
The comments about Brian, Kelly and the children are beyond rude and entirely inappropriate. On their behalf and in the same spirit: Kindly go fuck yourself.
Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.
Albert Einstein was just a lowley patent clerk in his younger days and was a such a terrible student, especially in Math, his teachers suggested that his parents not waste too much money on his education, yet his ideas revolutionized the world.
If the RRS core group wish to wear hoodies and have fun during their shows to reach a young generation, so what?
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca
Solvent, You are no longer welcome on our website. You joined our site with the attempt to attack our character solely, not with the attempt to constructively criticize us us or help us become better. Your childish immature hypocrisy riddled with flaws from Wank Falton shows you to be a poorer thinker than you wish us to be.
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?p=17153169&posted=1
Your post was addressed on a seperate site, and you reposted here with foul purpose.
Here was Kellys response (on your steroid board) just a few hours before you decided to repost here,written in an attempt to embrace your writing style so as to increase the chance that you will understand...
Don't bother. Your "letter" isn't worth re-posting anywhere, much less on our site.
As much as I like RabidApe, he is a member of our forums and our community, but not one of the core members, so what exactly does that have to do with Brian, Rook, or myself? I also didn't see any "bone" here. What exactly is your problem? I don't recall proclaiming myself as any kind of "professional" atheist.
Why does that matter? Is your postulation that one can only be worthy of speaking their mind if they have achieved an appropriate level of education? (Which, I assume, is entirely up to you and therefore completely subjective, but anyway...)
First of all, you have clearly demonstrated that you can't even read numerals (hello...kellym78...duh), so why should anybody consider your opinion on these matters? Not to mention that you are clearly superior to the "yahoo chat rooms" over here in the martial arts message boards.
No, we don't make any money. We sit around all day and starve. Moron.
No - it was nobody's father, thanks. Obviously, your obsession with us has compelled you to do a lot of research. How do you have time to work when you are so busy following us around all day?
We all know that the pinnacle of intellectual acheivement is clearly a bachelor's degree in whatever it is that you have--like being really jealous of anybody who actually gets any publicity. Is that a BA or a BS?
Please provide a logical and rational explanation for why any of that matters. You don't know anything about any of us other than what is available on myspace, but aside from that, are you suggesting that one MUST have a formal education in order to attain knowledge? Have you ever read anything that wasn't specifically assigned to you by a teacher?
Actually, Richard Dawkins has been nothing less than entirely supportive of us, and if he appeared "bored", it is only because he had been on a non-stop tour for almost two months before our show, all of which was openly discussed in our show with him. Who is displaying their lack of knowledge now?
You know, as much as i may disagree with Rousseau philosophically, he did have a point when he talked about the segment of the population that has sacrificed something and gotten no return. Obviously, you are pissed because you "took the time" in college or money or whatever, and have gotten nowhere. Sorry.
So, Kirk Cameron is a real scientist? Any logical person with any knowledge of biological evolution would not have the same response when presented with the crocoduck?
OH NOES!!!1!! There is an age discrepancy!!!!!! Of three whole years!!1!! Better call the fucking CIA. Can you get any more retarded? (Just FYI, none of my kids are Brian's and none of them are "bastards" as you so kindly put it. Asshole.)
Yeah, Pat Condell HATES us. That's why he posted a Blasphemy Challenge video and totally doesn't support our efforts at all. He thinks we suck. (/end sarcasm)
So, how are we different from you?
First, so the fuck what. Second, You are making you look bad, not us.
There is no "us". We represent ourselves, and nobody else. Sorry that we just happened to be creative and innovative UNLIKE anybody who loves to talk shit about us all day long. Go start your own site and show if you are so sure that you can do it better. After that, why don't you go fuck yourself for being a pretentious idiot with an over-inflated ego.
Yeah - all of those people HATE us. Did I mention that you are completely fucking retarded yet? (BTW - It's Tod Friel, not Frier. If I was you, I would be making fun of you right now for making such an obvious mistake.)
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